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Discussion on Getting a horse in front of your leg
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:08 pm:
OK, I am a little embarassed about even asking this question, with all my years I should not be in this situation. And be prepared, this question is a little obscure . . . . at least it is to me
I think it started with my EPSM gelding. For several years I rode him without knowing why he was so "lazy". We started this cycle of nagging with my leg. I experimented with spurs and a whip. I abandoned the spurs because I could tell they were useless. Long story short . . . he became very dull to my leg, spur and whip.
Poor guy just could not go. Now he is doing well on his diet but we have years of ignoring my leg and whip behind us. I can tell he can go now, I can feel it. And he does go when he wants to. But not necessarily when I ask him to.
I will say I have very high standards, I want him to be very sharp off my leg.
I put my leg on and when he does not move out, I smack him with the whip. Unfortunately this cycle never seems to improve. It is always leg then whip(when I used a spur it was always leg-spur-whip, so I thought why add that extra step ). I am certainly not afraid to smack him hard and he apparently does not mind. I will not hit him harder, trust me, the whip already whistles through the air most of the time, any harder and I am bordering on abuse. I think I might be asking for too much of a reaction with my leg and maybe need to reward the smaller efforts, kinda like when you are loading a horse in a trailer.
When I had my hotter than hot mare I was told I had an electric seat. Right now, driving with my seat only gives him something to resist. I am better off sitting tall and "allowing" the forward to happen . . . when it happens.
The really frustrating part is my lazy mare is starting to get the same way. She used to be very responsive off my leg. It must be me. A trainer got on her the other day and took about 1/2 hour to get her sharp off his leg at the walk and trot. Unfortunately he is not a very talkative fellow and I do not have enough info to replicate what he did.
Does any one have any good visualizations or advice I could use to figure out what subtlies I am missing?
On the up side I am in very good shape riding these horses due to the fact that I am working harder than they are !!
And on top of all this, these two horses are the offspring of my hotter than hot mare, . . . . any one who wants to say you pass this trait on can just come on over and ride my two horses. }
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:29 pm:
Have you started with the ground training again.?. You might be more effective asking for that jump on the ground. Its a different place for him and you, he might not be as dull.. Sharpen him up on the ground, that should carry over to the saddle..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:35 pm:
This is just a quick answer off the top of my half asleep brain, but I think at some point the "reward the slightest try" concept was missed. And it may help to start over with ground work, and get the initial response with say a plastic bag? To wake the horse up, then start rewarding the little tries now that you have the horses attention.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:55 pm:
Like Ann, I'd start on the ground and work my way up from there, awarding all the responses that are in the right direction.
And don't be embarassed;...we are all the victims of our bad habits!
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 11:25 pm:
OK, ground work it is !!
Sounds good to me, last year I had my mare lungeing very obediently. . . . one command and she was in the desired gait, and she would not dare DrOp out of that gait without the consequence. Then I used the voice commands to reinforce my leg when I was riding her.
Its too bad I dont have the skill to do this under saddle, as I really dont like lungeing.
I have never lunged my gelding that way. I have only done it to get him warmed up and more forward in general, the responsiveness was never required(not alot of transitions either). So I think I might see some definite improvement with that.
Angie, yes I think there is something missing with my "rewarding the slightest try". I think I hold out for a bigger effort before I release pressure. Must be habit. Once again, I feel I should be able to pull this off myself under saddle. I am also thinking instead of a plastic bag, how about a long range squirt gun?? I like to lunge in big circles and my lunge whip is never long enough.
Thanks guys, I will let you know how it goes.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:03 am:
Shelley ...
In my experience, this is usually the result of two factors .. a horse who tends to be a little lazy, and too much leg as a reaction to the laziness. This can also occur in reverse order .. too much leg and the horse begins to ignore the leg because it makes no difference how he responds, the leg is still there.
As you mentioned, rewarding the slightest try is very important in this scenario, especially as you begin to retrain.
I too would return to the ground and lunging, but I would avoid the long lazy circles .. this will just reinforce the laziness. He will make you work really hard to keep him going, and you will probably get little more than a lazy jog out of him before you are worn out. You will probably wind up chasing him with the whip going all the time, which he learns to ignore, just like the leg.
I will work on a shorter rope (12 to 15 feet) and work on lots of transitions and direction changes. With the shorter rope, I can keep his attention better, and I can reach him with the whip when needed. Here, it is very important to reward the slightest try. At a walk, ask for transition to jog using first, your body language, next the cluck, and finally the whip. If at any time he speeds up the slightest amount, release without applying the next cue. If he wants to slow down, don't just keep after him. Stop him and change directions and repeat. We want him to learn to maintain on his own. He has learned that if he just ignores all the nagging, he can get away from the work. We want to get after him and work through the direction changes, ideally a nice pivot and hurry out, then release immediately. Once you can get a half circle at speed, get him to release his rear and come in and rest next to you. Pet and praise, then repeat.
What he is learning is that a little bit of work gets the reward. The harder the work, the greater the reward .. and lots of praise for the effort. Then, you simply apply these same principles under saddle. Remove the pressure at the slightest try, then repeat. In the saddle, always apply your aids in the proper order.I am primarily western and I like my horse to go forward with a seat aid and forward movement of my rein hand. I start by putting myself in a forward position, then move my hand forward, then cluck, apply leg, apply spur, then whip. At the first response to any of these aids, I release pressure and reward. The desired cue must always be first. Most horses want to please, but when they get confused they either get anxious and jumpy, or shut down and get lazy. It is important that our communication is clear and consistent. Remember, he knows he has pleased you because he gets the release.
This is kind of long, but I hope it helps.
DT
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:33 am:
I also have the bad habit of nagging with my leg. So, when I participated in a clinic a few weeks ago with Bruce Mandeville ( former Canadian Eventer), my goal was to get my mare sharper off my leg and more consistent in the trot. On a 20m circle, Bruce had me do this in very quick sequence: sponge/soften the inside rein, lift my full leg, from the hip, off my horse and immedietely put back on & squeeze/release (hard to describe - I didn't whack at her with both legs, but it was more than a squeeze - hope that makes sense), lean slightly back and tickle with the whip. All this happened very quickly, and at the start, it happened continuously until I got a more forward horse. Then as we continued to work, my horse would stay forward for a longer time and then we only did the sequence at each of the 4 points of the circle...as we continued and she stayed rythmic and forward, the cues became softer and softer and much less frequent. By the end of the lesson, I could move her through figure eights, serpantines, snowman shapes, etc without any loss of forward and she stayed very connected and I got impulsion out of her like I've never felt before. At that point, all I had to do was "think" canter and she was so in front of my leg that she would softly strike off at once.
It was an amazing lesson and really helped me out a lot - as long as I remember to stop nagging!
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:16 am:
Dennis , thanks for taking the time to be thorough!
Everything you say makes sense except the part about "when he wants to slow down, stop him . . " Isnt that reward for slowing down with out my "permission"? How about keep going till I say so as long as it isn't too unreasonable. If he tries to slow down I get a few good forwards from the whip then stop him myself. He is actually in pretty good shape for a lazy boy. I am thinking once or twice around is the most I should do without a transition, does that sound OK or too intense.
Fran, thanks for the advice for under saddle.
I will be Chomping at the Bit to get past the lungeing and back on top where I should be! I think I know what you are talking about with lifting the leg. It makes for a lighter more lively leg intead of a heavy pressure. I will try the lean back but to be honest, with me it turns into too much of a driving seat which my horses are not responding to theses days.
That's great evidence that you could do all those figures with out loosing any energy.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 11:01 am:
Dennis, wouldn't you like to move to Southern Utah? There's a nice place for sale just down the road. I'd even help you move!
Fran, I'm curious. Do you keep some leg pressure on the horse all the time? I'm just curious. I was taught to ride with legs off the horse unless I wanted a response from the horse. I've since discovered there seems to be two schools of thought on this, and at some clinics I've attended riders are being told to keep light leg contact all the time. Being the typical rider, I've been sticking with what I was taught years ago because it seems to me to make sense in that after a while, if you keep some contact (light pressure) on the horse, it will learn to ignore that contact, and after awhile more and more contact (pressure) will be needed to get a response. Could that be happening here? Or do horses get used to the light contact but not immune to it?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:39 pm:
Fran, this is my thoughts of what Dennis is saying.. and what I practice as well.. by stopping the horse and getting him to roll over his hind and to start back in the other direction is actually harder work then keeping tempo in one direction.... So your stop /disengage /change direction is ACTIVE... not a strolling daisy picking turn around.. I am guessing this is what Dennis is referring to..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:41 pm:
Shelley ..
In this case, since he already has a tendency to ignore the pressure and get lazy, I meant that it would probably be no good to just keep chasing him to get him going again. When I said stop, change direction and take off, it is meant to be immediate and quick, no time to rest. He will find it is much harder work to stop, pivot and run out than to just keep going as you like.
Sorry I was confusing, but this is a lot of typing for me.
The mounted work Fran describes is right on.
Sara .. Don't you have a spare room to cut my expenses. Remember, I got horses, so I have no money. I agree with your comments. I like for the leg to mean something when I use it. If I ride with a lot of leg, the horse soon learns to ignore it, just like he ignores the saddle and bridle. It just becomes part of the deal. The lighter the leg I need, the better.
DT
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 1:16 pm:
Dennis, I could give up my office, but it's a little small. Maybe we could turn the barn loft into an apartment? Lets see...how many horses you want to bring?....I might need to put up some extra stalls.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 1:29 pm:
Sara, no, ideally, I don't keep leg pressure on all the time. I've been told to drape your leg around the horse as if it was a wet towel. It's lying there, on the horse, but not doing anything until you give a specific cue. Unfortunately for me, I'm not able to keep my leg as quiet as that wet towel and have a tendancy to bump with my heels, and the more I nag, the more my foot pivots backwards so not only do I bug the horse, but I bug her in the wrong place. In the clinic, I think there were 2 reasons he had me take my leg completely off for that instant: one, it helped me place my leg back in the correct position and two, it was different than what my mare was used to, so it caught her attention and woke her up, so to speak. As my leg improves (hopefully), I wouldn't need to lift it off the horse as much as I did in the clinic, and by the end of the ride, it became a squeeze, without the lift.
Shelley, as to the leaning back, I suspect (but didn't have the chance to ask) that he had me do that because I have a tendancy to tip my body forward the harder I work, and boy! was I working hard during that lesson, particularly as I was trying to co-ordinate those 4 cues...it became easier as I got my timing down better and as my mare became less in need of frequent asking. But I know it wasn't meant to be used as a driving seat in this instance.
What I have found since the clinic, is that it is all too easy for me to slip back into bad habits so when I think my mare starts tuning me out again, I go back to the sequence Bruce taught to get her moving forward again with the goal of getting lighter and lighter and it now takes much less time and I can resume my plan for the ride. If I can ever permanently fix ME  , my horse will be fine...
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 2:24 pm:
Ann .. that is exactly what I meant. And it didn't take you near as long to say it.
Sara .. the barn loft would be perfect. My wife says I live in the barn anyway. Would only need to bring about 12 horses, so we should be OK.
DT
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 2:52 pm:
Ann, I wasn't dismissing what Dennis said in the least (way too much respect for what he has always posted) and actually, I use transitions a lot to get the horse listening and more engaged. I had a trainer that liked to relate different techniques to "tools in the toolbox" - you pull different ones out as needed until everything is fixed...I'm just not easy to fix and usually need a sledgehammer to the head vs. a small screwdriver!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 3:14 pm:
Fran, you may not want to try this with other people around, but one thing I found, other than riding, to strengthen the inside of your legs so you can have more control is to walk around holding a sofa pillow between your legs. Going up and down small steps this way is really good, but hold onto the hand rail.
It's so easy to picture what you should be doing and so hard to actually do it right! I have the same problem with leaning forward.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 4:19 pm:
 Sara! Haven't heard about that particular trick. Good thing I mostly work out of a home office so the only chance of anyone seeing me with the cushion between my legs is perhaps the UPS man! Anything to improve my leg! (And if I fall down the stairs while trying this, someone needs to promise me they will sneak my mare into my hospital room...all 1300 lbs of her disguised as a therapy dog, perhaps?)
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 4:24 pm:
Fran, I think you and I sound too alike and everyone is getting us confused! Similar issues.
My shoer just left, he rides Dressage and his wife is a long time classical rider.
Poor guy, had him captive for almost three hours. Any way I quizzed him on the subject too.
As far as leg pressure, he keeps just enough to keep his leg quiet and not any more, and yes the horse gets used to that. But it is all relative and the horse if trained properly(key words here) will respond to only slight increases.
Dennis and Ann, I was afraid that was what you meant.
Another embarrasment on my part . . . . I never learned to do this manuver on the lunge. Partly because I dont like to lunge and also because I dont have a round pen. Does anyone know where there are some instructions to do this without a round pen, I dont want Dennis's fingers to get tired typing, he he he.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 5:39 pm:
Shelley ... Don't need a round pen. I do this wherever I have a little open space.If you can learn to do these exercises, you would probably learn to like lunging. It is a great way to develop communication and a bond with your horse.
DT
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 6:35 pm:
Hi,
The advice above is great. I had a dressage instructor who told me to use leg and as soon as he sped up reward by taking my leg off. This made him worse. After reading and reading everything I could get my hands on this is what worked for me. It was 3 requests each one about a second long or less with about 2 seconds in between to give him time to think and and chance to respond. Sometimes we tend to move on to the whip etc without giving him a chance. 2 seconds is mine . I count it slowly. First is a soft quick squeeze. the softer the better, no more than a second. count 2 no response I cluck, but if you do dressage thats not allowed so a swift kick, wait 2 seconds to give him a chance then a sharp whack with the crop or spurs . By giving them a second or 2 in between you are allowing them a bit to think. In the beginning you might have to go to 3 steps it quickly becomes 2 then the tiny soft squeeze makes them jump off your leg. Always start with the softest squeeze possible . That is what gets them hot off your leg. A hard or long squeeze does the opposite.
The driving seat and all that is great but it does not make them hot off your leg. Start at the walk then the trot then the canter. It was what works for me after reading and reading and reading. Something to try any way.
Katrina
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 2:39 pm:
I've been working on this in weekly dressage lessons. In working through my various issues as a rider, I've learned that I tend to block the horse with my hands and seat. So, I'd put on leg, but clutch a little with hands/shoulders, plus not use my seat properly because of stiffness in my hips, etc. Usual beginner stuff, I'm sure. It's been quite a revelation as I slowly improve to get hints of what it's like to really have the horse in front of the leg.
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Member:
Mcbizz
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:32 pm:
Sharon, if you can get a copy of Erik Herbermann's Dressage Formula, I think you would find it very helpful with so many of the issues you have pointed out. I have read it three times, will no doubt read it again. He is very clear and obviously a "master." }
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 4:06 pm:
OK everyone, just finished a lesson with my trainer(thanks ANN for the referral). I told him I would not let him leave until we figured out why I cant get my horses to stay in front of my leg.
Well I definetely found a big piece of the puzzle. I have always done leg-whip, however many times it takes for her to "jump", and then I would release pressure until she needed it again. What I did today . . . was to imediately follow the "jump" with another light leg as if to say "now what are we suppose to do ?" In her case the follow up leg was only 2-3 strides after her correct response to the whip. I was waiting way too long to follow up with the correct amount of leg and she was not making the mental connection. I think I got some of her best work today. And she gave me an amazing lengthen at the end.
Does that make sense?
Now I am going to have a quick snack and try my gelding. He may have to back up all the way to the lungeing that Dennis and everyone else described. Actually I think he could use the lungeing anyway.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 7:02 pm:
Very interesting reading. Kinda think I want my horse between my legs not in front of my leg; but, no wait, the pillow is between my legs. I still you think you "English" folks work way to hard at this business of riding, but I am trying to learn from it. (please keep typing Dennis, I need you!)
Here's a concept I remember from an old cowboy book: To teach a horse to be responsive to you legs for GO, you go to a large field, put your legs on him hard, throw the reins forward, and bring the crop down hard on his rump. Then you let him run for a good while, and slowly let him slow down. You supposively only have to do this one time, and from then on the horse knows legs on means go, legs really, really on means go really fast. The legs go to "neutral" after the initial request.
BTW, one of those exercise balls works wonders for strengthening your inner legs. Try holding one between you feet, legs straight up, then twist your legs back and forth. You'll flatten you tummy too! And you won't look as funny if someone sees you, grin.
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 7:17 pm:
Congratulations, Shelley. Another revelation revealed through lessons...
Angie, western or english, the fundamental requirement of keeping your horse between your legs and between you and the ground are the same!
It is a lot more work to learn to ride correctly than I ever imagined when I started plopping around on safe trail horses. After meeting more than a few less-than-safe horses, I started lessons out of pure self defense. Then, I got hooked on the goal of tactful, nuanced, correct riding. A lot of the stuff I'm leaning in basic dressage lessons apply equally to western riding. It's slow-going for an adult amateur like me but rewarding for me and my horses say thanks.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 10:08 pm:
I have been a regional competitive swimmer, a varsity tennis player, etc etc and have never worked so hard at looking like I am doing nothing at all as I have during my sporadic dressage lessons! Those lessons build up more of a sweat, muscle ache, and humility than anything I have ever undertaken. I have nothing but awe those of you who are so dedicated to this method of riding. This coming from some-one who only rode english until very recently.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 6:53 am:
Hi Shelly that is great. Yes it does make sense. Isnt it a great feeling when we master something. How did your gelding go?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 9:29 am:
Great news.. I have found that sometimes we quit riding too soon, thus the horse will shut down.. I have been lucky with very foreword thinking mounts, that being said , I still have to ride every stride on the young ones till they understand what I really want and how much..
The ground work can still help.. I am amazed how the ground work will leak into the mounted work and quickly..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 9:42 am:
Lots of excellent advice, one point I haven't read and I may have just missed it is don't keep hitting the horse harder with the riding crop. I've been taught when teaching 'go' to just tap with the whip.
Wack!.... He'll move and he's brain is at full alert because "SHE HIT ME!!!". Tap, tap tap... He'll move and he's brain is relaxed because "Whew, she stopped that darn tapping".
In the second situation he's more relaxed and will learn easier. So use what ever progression you please (I like reins forward, leg, cluck, tap) but he's become better and more responsive if he's relaxed.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 10:11 am:
Ann .. that is why I always try to teach more and more advanced ground work. It becomes just like riding from the ground. And as you said, it all leaks into your riding, and your horse's understanding and communication with you and vice versa.
I am always amazed at how many people I work with that have horses and do very little ground schooling. If you think about it, even if you ride a lot, 90% of the time you spend with your horse is on the ground. I have learned to enjoy ground schooling as much as I do riding.
Ditto Alden's comments. I like to start with a light aid and escalate as needed, Hopefully I get a response early. If not I steadily increase the pressure of the aids as needed. Ultimately, if a whack is needed, I will whack. But don't keep after them. Reward the slightest try and start again. As Alden said, if we whack immediately, the horse goes into flight mode and is learning nothing, except getting away.
DT
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 11:51 am:
Karina, thanks. My boy did not do quite so well. But he was definetley better. The problem with him is he is desensitized to the whip. Sometimes he hears it and sometimes it is as if I never touched him with it. That is why I think I will have to go back to lungeing with him.
And yes Alden, even with a horse like him who is desensitized the tapping has more clarity for him than the Whack. I still whack him when I need to but the evidence, my evidence, shows no improvement. I suppose I should stop whacking him .
Like I said, back to the lunge to sensitize him to the whip, and then if I ride with VERY high standards for myself, I should be able to fix this.
I guess I need to get a video on lungeing, anyone have any ideas? One that works with a lunge line and no enclosure.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 12:14 pm:
Shelly, look at some of Clint Anderson's stuff.. Lunging for respect... I think Parelli has some too...
I don't have a round pen.. but I do have a mock fence around my dressage court.. When teaching them to disenage the hind end I use that fence line.. Also there are a few Parelli trainers in the area, you could have one come over to help you a couple of times..
Would love a round pen.. specially now when i start the walking of the rehab filly..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 5:52 pm:
Shelly any improvement is wonderful even its a tiny bit. So congratulations .Alden and Dennis made great points. I forgot to mention don't whack as in hard . One thing I forget to mention I have no idea if it will help. My guy is numb to a regular riding crop or he was. I found out from his previous owner that the tapping the butt was what worked for him. So I use a long dressage whip lightly on his hip not where they are numb to your aids. This works for him .This is just him though. You actually sound like you are making great progress. Lunging will certainly add to your success. I still lunge mine once a week, not to get energy out but to re-enforce ground work. After you lunge its amazing how much they want to please you it relaxes them and gets them ready to work. As long as they don't run around at speeds they choose. I am sure any of the natural horsemanship lunging tapes will help. I haven't seen Clinton's but he is my personal favorite trainer. I love the fact for me that they learn voice commands extremely well from lunging. stop or woe (spelling) are my emergency brakes even when riding. It would not be allowed in dressage to tell your horse what to do but now I don't do dressage this is more fun. PS you don't need an enclosure to lunge. Use a halter with one of those little lunging V straps for a couple of dollars or if you can find a picture of how to run the lunge line over the poll will help with control. I would not use a bit when starting out.
Shelly You have made the biggest step th fixing this by your knowledge and by not blaming your horse. I cant wait to here of your progress . Please keep us posted.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 10:51 pm:
Katrina and Ann,
I love Clinton A. I watch him when ever I can on RFTV. He cracks me up . . . the man never stops takling.!
One thing I am unsure about . . I always thought you disengage the HQ to gain control. I have plenty of control of my gelding, he is going on 13 and I have had him all his life and know him like the back of my hand(and vise-versa). I need to engage his HQ. Is there another kind of turn about that will make them work without disengageing the HQ?
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 11:47 am:
Shelley,
Yours is an interesting question. Although I'm not sure what your goal is, I thought I'd share something I recently learned. In a conversation with Wendy Murdoch, I mentioned I was disengaging my horse's HQ as he stepped under himself with the hind leg closest to me, and moved his hind end away from me. She sorta chuckled and said (paraphrased) that when a horse steps under himself with his hind leg, he is, in fact, engaging his hindquarters. A disengaged HQ is one which is free to flee and move in any direction. Made sense to me. However, in the NH movement, we have all come to learn the maneuver where the horse steps under himself with his hind leg is called "disengaging." I agreed to say that I am "moving the horse's HQ" instead of disengaging to be semantically correct. We both agreed we'd get a wierd look (and confusion) from others if we said we're "engaging" his HQ.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
DT quoted: We want to get after him and work through the direction changes, ideally a nice pivot and hurry out, then release immediately. "
DT,
In trying to get my horse to more actively use his hindend, I tried to get him to hurry out of the turn. I'm not sure if it's just the temperament of my horse, but I found it made him quite anxious, even during the lunge part, waiting for my increased energy. I believe his anxiety is that, although he does what he's asked, he doesn't really understand it. In other words, he's just responding to my body language/energy level, then fretting about when I'm going to hustle him up again.
How would I break this down into smaller steps so as to get an "ah-ha" from the horse? Or do you think that's possible when you're trying to get him hustling?
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 2:23 pm:
Good points Dove2,
I too think engagement when they step under with their HQ. Now many of the NH trainers use this for safety because "when you have disengaged the HQ they are less able to do any thing athletic like buck or run off". Of course the reason, especially in Dressage, we are always trying to engage them is not to train them to buck or run off but to empower them to be more athletic.
I can only guess it is the lateral movement of the HQ that gives you the upper hand.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 5:06 pm:
Actually, Shelley, I believe it is having one of the hind legs underneath the horse that prevents the horse from running, bucking, kicking, etc. When I have a question about the horse's movement, I try it on myself. So, put one foot in front and diagonally across your other foot. Now try to run, or do anything else. Not possible.
You're right that this movement also allows the horse to be more flexible and thus more athletic. It really engages the muscles of the hindquarters and stretches/works the muscles in a good way.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 9:23 pm:
Seems that this disengaging of the hindquarters also means a rein is used to bring the nose around at the same time, so most times it's not just about moving the rear over. You can do it with or without the rein and nose to your leg.
Something that I did with a sluggish horse was use spurs. But not to get him to move forward, or move faster. (I never did the cowboy trick mentioned above, just read about it and thought I'd share it) And let me see if I can explain this:
He was being lazy giving his head to me, just sitting there waiting me out and it was hard to find the release. I was just sitting at a stand still, working on the lateral flexing. So I put spurs on, and I would ask for his head to come around, wait a second, then touch him with the spur and kind of roll it up his side. It only took a few times, and he went "hey, I'd better give my head to the side or I get poked a little" It seemed as soon as he got that figured out, then he got that legs on both sides meant move, leg on one side move OVER that part of his body. I don't like spurs and don't think I should be using them since I could get myself hurt! So this was like 3 sessions. The point I am trying to get across rather poorly is that going back to this basic would perhaps help. It might seem like it has nothing to do with going forward but it does because you are asking for a response, asking 1, 2, 3, giving the release when he responds, and then asking for movement after that basic "give" is understood.
Does he give when you ask with one rein? Does he lower his head and tuck his nose when you ask with 2 reins? If you get him light with the gives with the reins, and light moving sideways, or moving his rib cage over, light moving his rear over, then he will become light going forward.
I really didn't think this would work and thought it was a waste of time, but it just amazes me the difference doing this stuff makes. Just don't use the spurs over and over again. If he don't "give" to the spur which isn't jabbing him, just on him, use a dressage whip, or a longer one as he's dead to the whip you say, and tap him where ever it is that you need to tap him for him to respond with movement. Might be his hock, his foot even.
Does this make sense? Maybe someone else can say this better than I am, maybe it's been said already. Seems that so far we are all trying to get the horse to go forward first and I don't think that is the answer.
Just remember it's about the give first with the bit. Then when you ask for any movement off your leg, spur, whip..it's 1,wait, 2 wait, 3 really crack that inside hock, leg, foot. Be prepared to do a lot of circles! You should be able to forget about the whip first, then the spur second until it's just your leg he's responding to.
Give this a week....I bet he's going forward by day 7. Let me know!!!
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 11:48 pm:
Angie,
You know, this sounds like what my trainer was doing with my mare. He did not explain himself very well and I could not repeat it the next day. But I did get on her after he was done and she was very light and very forward. What was amazing was that he mostly worked at the walk and just a little trotting. Then I got on her and she was forward and responsive walk, trot, and canter.
Now my gelding is different because he gives with his head too well. He mostly likes to curl up like a Hoho. But maybe I can do this anyway if I expect more of a reaction in his body with the spur.
This makes sense, thanks so much.
I also think this could take care of what Dove2 was talking about in moving the HQ and flexing and strengthening them.
So much information . . . . so little riding time !!
At least the rain will clear tomorrow.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 11:30 am:
Dove ..
i believe it is just a matter of repetition and consistency. I can get a slow turn and depart when I want it by being relaxed and calm when I ask for it. I use this a lot in desensitizing, etc. I can get a big pivot and take away when I make myself big when I ask. I hope that all makes sense. You said " he is just responding to my body language and energy level" I think that is exactly what you are looking for. He should be a little more excited when you are. Ask large and get large, ask small and get small.
DT
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 11:34 am:
Fran ... You got it right on the nose, you need a lot of different tools. What works for one, may not work for the other. I don't put the sledge hammer back in the tool box though. I need to keep it handy to use on myself.
DT
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 11:38 am:
Shelly,
Aw, Great!! You've gotten the idea from my ramblings.
I'd like to be a little more specific now that I know he gives his head lateraly. Here's how I'd do this if he were my horse:
I'd ask for him to bring his head to my knee, and have the rein length situated so that when my hand was at my hip, his nose would be at my leg/stirrup, where ever he is touching. As soon as he gives, I'd release but only bring my hand down and give him enough rein length so that his head couldn't get past 10 o'clock, or 2 o'clock, with noon being his head looking straight ahead. As soon as I gave the release/reward, I would literaly turn to look at his back end, and apply the spur back towards his flank. I put pressure, wait til the count of 3, then tap, tap, tap with the spur, rewarding by stopping the minute he so much as shifts his weight. When I stop the spur asking, I'd also let his head go all the way to noon, and rest. For like 5 seconds. Repeat.
If he hasn't moved by tap number 3, I'd apply the dressage whip the same way. Tap, tap, TAP, smack....and in his case I think I would also if needed, lower my taps on his leg til he figured out move. Then stop all the asking when he so much as shifts his weight over. If you end up going low on his leg and he lifts his leg or kicks out, don't reward that. You are NOT trying to teach him tricks, so carry on until he moves over.
The reason I am not letting the head go back to noon is because I want him to move over his rear, but also I want movement forward, but not totally forward as I am asking for the rear end to move over. If I keep his head pulled around the circle will be too small. IF he keeps his head around and wants to circle really small, I'd let that go for now. He is not wrong for doing that, because he should actually keep his head there until you use the other rein to bring it to the other side. I don't know if he will do that the while he is moving the rear over. Do not stop forward movement if you do get it of course just let him go and hold the gait as long as possible. I doubt though he will go forward so just work on getting the moving his butt over NOW and I mean NOW when I ask. I would think within an hour, you'd be able to forget the whip and the spurs would be barely needed. Of course once he gets quick with that, spend time just sitting and asking for him to bring his head around without moving the other end!
Next, would be what your trainer sounds like he was doing. Now I would keep to small circles and again, the head would go from noon, to my leg/stirrup, and back to 10 or 2, aiming for him to keep his head a little exaggerated for being on a circle. Now I would use the spur to move his rib cage over. Put in on, roll it up his belly/side, release. Only do this if he has it down 100% about the spur meaning MOVE over from the first exercise. If he is now awake and receptive to the leg/spur he will know how to respond to it being at the girth now. This is just more suppling. Now you should be able to do a few circles, let him walk out, repeat. Spend time on this, do something else, and go back to it. Stop before he shuts down, or before YOU start thinking he can do it all now. Better to do the first thing correct, in tiny increments, then move on and have it all flowing, then to rush through it, and be back to the beginning only worse off.
I would do CA's lunging for respect with this guy, but I would also ride him every day being he's not just being started. Most of the above is Clinton's style but I don't think his way is the only way a lot depends on the horse. I don't care for all his methods with a really hot or timid horse. You might try some games like Parelli does too, just to give you and the horse something new to strengthen the bond between you 2.
I really can't wait to hear if this works for you!! HA is like an online horse course...."EVERYTHING EQUINE 101" LOL!!! Love discussing training and getting feed back, so keep us posted.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 11:46 am:
Katrina makes a good point in allowing ample time to respond. Don't get ahead of yourself or the horse. Give him time to figure out the proper response.
Shelley .. One other point that comes to mind is your own body language and seat position. Make sure when you want forward, that your body and seat is also saying forward. Also, when he does go forward, do you let him go for a while, or do you immediately try to get him to do something else. One thing I see a lot is that we discourage forward by immediately trying to rate speed, get to the rail, or whatever. With a horse that seems to have trouble understanding forward, just let him go a little bit. I don't worry about where or how fast for a while, I just let him choose. If we are constantly checking him up every time he starts to go, we are discouraging him from going. I see this especially in a lot of "new starts". Every time the horse goes a little bit, we pull him in. He soon learns to think that going is a "bad" thing.
Another tool I use is to tuck a lead rope in my belt with the loose end hanging down by my thigh. Many times when the leg and whip don't get results, I can reach down and grab the rope and swing like a lariat at the sides and this will get the horse moving.
Good luck and keep us posted. I like to add whatever works to "my" tool box.
DT
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 1:08 pm:
Dennis, you make a very good point about letting the horse keep moving before asking something else. I've seen a few sluggish horses finally move off at someone's request, but as the horse veers off the track or trots/canters instead of walks/trots briskly off, the rider pulls the horse back immediately, sending a very mixed signal. I think I read somewhere that as long as the horse moves off, regardless of gait or where it's going (as long as it's safe), wait at least 8 strides to correct it so that it gets the idea that "forward with energy" is what you want.
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