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Discussion on Are all natural horsemanship clinicians basically the same?
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 3:35 pm:
Maybe the subject line says it all. Are Parelli, Anderson, Bell, and others essentially the same? How would one determine where to invest substantial funds--like $50 for a 39-minute DVD?
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 4:28 pm:
I am afraid to touch the first half of your question as replies will be all over the place...but I would say that they are very similar in that they all use pressure and release as the basis for their training methodologies.
That said....I was looking for a good set of training DVDs. I had recently struck up an email conversation with Sylvia Scott of the Natural Horsemanship Training Center in Blacksburg, VA because I needed to ask her for some input for a feature I'm working on for the VA Horse Journal...through that conversation, I decided to try her "Whispering Way" training DVDs (set of 3, about 3 hours total) and round pen DVD (1 DVD, about an hour). This cost about $150 altogether.
I urge you to take a look at Sylvia's website and consider these DVDs. She is really a phenomenal trainer whose strong area is working with women and their horses, and she does so better than the guys do. Spend some time on her website and you'll be impressed. She belonged to the same group of California trainers that produced Parelli and other big names....they all came through the ranks together. I feel like she is somewhat softer than say, Clinton Anderson, and is also not too interested in the commercial side of things. For the money, you are getting some great instruction. She and Frank Bell actually co-wrote a book together, and she's working on one of her own now.
You can find her at https://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/. Spend some time on her website. You'll like what you read. And she is extremely accessible by email and will answer any and all questions you have. HIGHLY RECOMMEND.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 4:30 pm:
Hi Ellie,
This is an interesting question and I bet you will get some differing opinions. I've spent time learning Parelli, Anderson, and Chris Cox. (I've only read a bit by Frank Bell, never seen his videos). I think they all use similar techniques, but each excels in certain areas.
Parelli is easy to learn, uses games and fun things to make working with your horse more enjoyable. Anderson is very good at using a systematic approach giving step by step methods that build upon each other. He is best at getting us new horse people to learn horse communication. Chris Cox is my personal favorite though. What I like about him is he excels at teaching how to handle problems. His videos and TV show on RFD TV show typical horse problems and his methods of handing them have worked very well for me.
So it really depends on what you want to learn. Are you new and looking for guidance? Anderson is great. Are you having problems? Then Chris Cox is great. Do you just want to get better with your horse and like the idea of playing games together? Parelli.
They are all too expensive, IMO. We have Dish Satellite and get RFD TV as part of their programming, so I've never had to shell out for the videos. I've heard Horse TV also has them.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 4:31 pm:
Ellie,
They are not all the same, but they all believe in the same basic principles. I like Parelli's and Dennis Reis' approach. You should probably try to view some programs on RFD-TV if you have it or maybe rent or borrow some videos before you buy. Some tack shops or maybe the library would have some to rent. I belong to the Parelli Savvy Club at $20/mo and each month you get a DVD on some training issue, a recent tour stop, Pat's training of a colt from day one, etc. There is more than one subject on each DVD, so I think that it is well worth the money. I really like Dennis Reis's approach, he is very kind (as is Parelli), yet gets more out of a horse than you might think possible. There are so many out there, maybe someone else has some info about some of the others.
Kathleen
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 5:34 pm:
Mark Rashid and Dennis Reis are the ones I like best also Linda Parelli is very good.Started out not a Chris Cox fan but he grew on me and his stuff has worked well with the mustang. When working with different horses I,ve used Linda Tellingtons book " Getting in T Touch". When it first came out we did a road trip and visited every horse the 3 of us knew and her guide to discerning personalities was right on! She shows pictures of eyes,ears head formation facial swirls etc and the personalities that go with each. Since we never know what background most horses come from her idea gives insight to possible responses to training. My arab gelding has a wheat collar and these horses are usually seen as "impossibles" but forewarned is forearmed and we have done really well together. Just another training aid possibility. Cindy
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 6:14 pm:
I would say in essence they are all the same. You pay for something to teach yourself something... You can do that for free... spend your money on a good saddle, or a good comfy cinch strap...
and $5-??? most of these things are alot more than that to get going with it...and once in? more money to find out whats around the corner...
my advice?/ go to the library. see what they have to rent as far as videos and look over all you can get your hands on that way.
Then go to the book section and do the same... And if you have RFD thats great, but why pay for something that ultimately sucks you in to one frame of reference only.
I don't buy, or buy into any of these experts. Get a real live in the flesh trainer to help you sort stuff out on a monthly basis if you can't afford weekly....nothing beats mentoring and hands on.
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
That's what's great about today's 'natural horsemen': they have certified others to teach in your area. There are Parelli instructors all over the country. Other clinicians do the same thing, so when you find someone's style you like, you can usually find someone in your area who is certified by that person, or at least has been taught by that person, so you can get the 'hands on' experience you talk about Jojo.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 7:04 pm:
I think who ever makes more sense to you. Everyone has their own preference. I think its who ever is easier for you personally to understand and how fast you want results. I think they are all good in different ways. I like Clinton riding with confidence tapes because the results are fast and it works for my horse. Another horse might need another approach. The post above that mentions sylviva scott is very true. She answers all training questions where as others are too what can I say too professional to answer us non paying people. there are a few I dont like but wont mention names as its only me. I do have to say though you do have to unfortunatly buy the whole series of tapes of whoever as whatching clips on TV does not really help train your horse. Horses need baby steps each one leading to the next. You cant just go in and teach a sliding stop without all the steps leading up to it ,if that makes sense. I used to try and learn from single tapes and TV shows and thought i was doing ok until I bought a series of expensive tapes. They were worth every cent.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:32 pm:
the problem with DVD's is similar to a problem that has already been mentioned -some trainers seem to work better with some horses... i think in real hands on work that's not necessarily true, but when the only guide is a DVD then only so much can go on it, and obviously there's just no possible way to get information out on every type of problem to be encountered - or even just the basic types... so then we find that some "methods" work better than others, which may not be the case, but that that particular DVD addressed that type of horse in a way that more people could understand...
the guy i worked with travelled all over the country, and was absolutely amazing.. i saw him work wonders with every type of horse imaginable, and he had a more deeper insight into horse psychology than anyone i have ever seen or read about....IMO he puts most of the guys on TV to shame... he also absolutely refused to put anything on book or tape/DVD... he said that every horse was an individual and had to be treated as such, and to use a "cookie cutter" approach, as a book or tape will lead one to do, will leave gaps in each individual horse's training... his goal was not just to help us train the horse, but to train us to understand the differences in each horse and how to react to it, so that we could "spread the word"...
i have to agree with jojo that you are best served by getting a trainer in "real life" and getting a hands on approach...
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:58 pm:
What great information, everyone!
Let me ask this if I may:
Would you suggest one over the other for the training of a young Warmblood ( 4 yrs. old) who is quite insecure? He was only backed 6 months ago, and his trainer and he have begun to have a trusting relationship, but she and I both whether some natural horsemanship might be a confidence builder for him and a way of keeping his distractibility under control.
I'm off to some more sites at will, Terry, certainly check out Sylvia Scott. Someone who answers e-mail! Seems miraculous!
Again, thanks to all.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 7:23 am:
Melissa,
Can you share the name of this insightful trainer who travels all over the country? Sounds like my kind of trainer! How would one get in touch with him?
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 8:11 am:
Ellie,
I have an insecure guy too. He's almost 5 now, and what I found was some of the Clinton Anderson ground work scared the heck out of him. But, the CA mounted is just what he needs. I think CA's Lunging for Respect and the ground moves he teaches are fantastic but you do have to tone it down for some horses. For insecure horses I like Dennis Reis's more "quiet" approach.
I don't mind how Clinton gets after a horse, if they need it, but I think he spends why to much time just yanking the horses head from side to side. He says he's asking for a "give", but I see "yank, pull, tug". Of course he's so busy talking I don't think he's paying attention to what he's doing himself, lol!!
I just starting getting on my insecure guy and I found the matter-of-fact methods without overwhelming him works the best.
I think it just boils down to knowing how to read your horse. If pointing sends him away, for example, you probably don't need a whip to crack near him, or on him for encouragement. And don't think you can work like the guys on tv, ha, ride in an hour or two? On an insecure horse? Not for me.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 8:49 am:
Ellie, I think the term natural horsemanship has been cliche'd to the point of vague meaning. When you say that you think your horse would benefit from natural horsemanship to build confidence...what is the other side of that fence? Natural horsemanship as opposed to---what? To me, natural horsemanship is learning how to be a better communicator and be a more effective teacher, listener, and interpreter of what your horse is telling you. Why would we ever want to do anything else? NH isn't like going on a diet, where we totally change our habits for a while before going back to eating habits that are unhealthy and ineffective. It's a lifestyle change....a totally different way of viewing your relationship with your horse. It is NOT discipline specific...though most of the trainers we see are working with western gear and horses, there are many highly regarded horse professionals from all walks who are practitioners. Parelli especially is high-visibility in partnering with some of these folks. I know the O'Connors are Parelli fans.
I don't think it's an either-or proposition. Once you learn the "Better Way" (this is what Tom Moates calls it in his book "Discovering Natural Horsemanship), there really is no going back....you can't imagine it. Just some thoughts.
Have a great Wednesday!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 9:37 am:
Ditto Terri ... "Natural Horsemanship" could probably be defined as "humane, common sense training". There have been many who practiced this approach (including myself) for years before it became the "rage".
The key in my opinion is that you establish a bond of common trust and respect with your horse and develop a communication process that allows your horse to behave and move in specific ways.
It is not "majic" and there is no real secret to be learned from the "guru's". In my opinion, most of these guys have become so commercial they are more concerned with selling you a $10.00 halter for $50.00 than anything else. Don't get me wrong, there is lots to learn from all of them, but never forget, you will learn more from your horse. He will always let you know if a particular method is working or not.
Horse training is being able to absorb all you have learned from every horse and horse person you have ever been around .. then being able to apply what is humane and has worked in the past on a particular horse. You must then be able to modify and refine for each different horse and personality.
They all have a lot to offer, but in the end the best is what you can learn and apply to your situation. I have studied closely Monty Roberts, John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, Dennis Reis, Chris Cox, My brother, an old guy I used to work with, and everyone I used to ride with when I was younger. I then tried to develop the "DT" method which is a combination of all I have learned that works for me. I hope tomorrow, there will be more I can add to my package.
Study them all, but most of all, study and listen to your horse.
DT
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 9:55 am:
Sorry ... forgot to mention the good Dr. O. and each and every member of HA .... even Holly.
DT
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 10:39 am:
Excellent, Dennis. You have just reiterated what our California trainer once told me. I had complained about another trainer, and he told me to watch him; you can learn from anyone, even if it's what NOT to do.
Sure you don't want to live in Utah?
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Member:
Mcbizz
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 1:03 pm:
Agree, totally, Dennis. Pat and Linda Parelli were here in Reno this summer. $100 a ticket at the door. We have a Natural Horsemanship Club here which offered the tickets for far less. A Parelli Savvy Club member comped me a ticket. It was mobbed. More like a circus or revival meeting than a "clinic". Tons of things for sale, from tack to clothing. Expensive too! A big difference from when he was here in the early '80's. Far more simple and a easier to comprehend when he was starting out.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 1:18 pm:
If we look at "training" as building a good relationship . . . and a good relationship always stands on a strong foundation of kind, respectful communication . . . then we are on the way to having many friends, whether they have two legs or four . . . and not only does each animal and person teach us something new, for if we only had ONE horse or ONE person in our lives, we would learn something new each day, whether it be about ourselves, or about the friend . . . or about life in general.
First comes the seeking for a better relationship, then comes the finding of techniques through reading, counseling, experimenting, observing, failing, and then succeeding . . . It's a great adventure, and what I believe LIFE is all about. Without relationships, we don't have a life.
One of the dangers in reading or going to a clinic or watching DVDs is the risk of getting stuck in that specific techniques. Over the years, I attended and worked at a few Lyons's Symposiums, and some of the things John said never changed, but my UNDERSTANDING of what he said deepened each time because in the interims, I had worked with horses . . . and one of the things I learned from John and from all good teachers is that learning never ends . . . and that many teaching techniques need to be adapted in order to meet the needs of the individual students . . . and when we adapt, we grow . . . If we keep the eyes of our minds "soft" then we will continue to garner wisdom as we work, teach, learn, and live.
Too wordy, I know . . . I was trying to think of a quick comeback to Dennis's quip . . . and waxed philosophical instead. I'll get you later, Den . . . "Just you wait, 'enry 'iggins; just you wait!"
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 2:07 pm:
sorry dove2, but he doesnt teach anymore...has some personal problems he's going thru... fortunately for us when he trained he gave hours of required lectures where we all took notes, and we all made sure to watch everyone else's horses and take notes on their horses, and we all keep in contact with each other, so when we get a horse that we reocognize as different then one that we've trained with him, we have something/someone to fall back on... we definately dont train every horse the same and sometimes come at horses completely opposite then another horse.. my two are like that - couldnt be more different... in the end if done right then they all get to the same place.. which they've done..
we are in the process of putting notes together into some sort of book form, but like the guy said, you cant use the cookie cutter approach, so just dont see how it could be feasible.. maybe a horse psychology book...
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 2:17 pm:
Carolyn,
Thanks, I was thinking about buying tickets for Parelli's clinic this summer. They are offered half price if purchased before 1/2/07. Think I'll skip it!
Ellie,
Like everyone else is saying, you can learn from many sources and then adapt what works for your horse, your style, and your situation. Many times I've tried something shown by one of these clinicians only to find I didn't have the technique, or the timing, or whatever "it" is they had, and it never worked for me. Hate to spend big money on something that doesn't work and with the video series, you have no guarantees. I do agree there is a sequence of lessons to follow that you cannot see on TV shows and for that I used Clinton Andersons book "Establishing Respect and Control", which only cost $16 on Amazon. I went through each exercise and had great results. I think the NH clinicians have good information, but I object to paying outrages prices. Do some snooping around and you will find ways to achieve the same result without emptying your wallet.
Linda
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 2:47 pm:
Quick note regarding tickets since we are talking $$$ that we spend on different things. The Savvy Club was mentioned above by Kathleen. One of the nice perks of joining is 7 free tickets to their current tour. Clinton Anderson sends free tickets to anyone who has purchased any of his products during the year (and these are much more reasonable than the Parelli tickets to begin with). In my opinion, though, they are just trying to get you in the door to buy their stuff. (Though I have to say, the CA halter and lead I bought a year ago was worth the $60 I spent).
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 3:46 pm:
Holly, I hope we don't have to sit you and Dennis down in separate corners when we meet in October!
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 6:00 pm:
It's hard to disagree with any of the ideas posted so far. My trainer is developing a relationship with my 4-year-old, but the other day he acted up quite a bit , rearing and bucking and then bolting down the dirt road. She was bewildered that he would bolt and is looking for training perspectives or ideas she's overlooked.
She is not knowledgeable about but is interested in natural horsemanship because she thinks it might help her tune into my gelding even more and to put more variety into his lessons.
That's why I asked. Plus, I loathe the moneymaking aspect of so many of the natural horsemanship practitioners. $50 for a half-hour video is, in my opinion, far too much.
Again, your insights and advice are invaluable
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 6:02 pm:
It's hard to disagree with any of the ideas posted so far. My trainer is developing a relationship with my 4-year-old, but the other day he acted up quite a bit , rearing and bucking and then bolting down the dirt road. She was bewildered that he would bolt and is looking for training perspectives or ideas she's overlooked.
She is not knowledgeable about but is interested in natural horsemanship because she thinks it might help her tune into my gelding even more and to put more variety into his lessons.
That's why I asked. Plus, I loathe the moneymaking aspect of so many of the natural horsemanship practitioners. $50 for a half-hour video is, in my opinion, far too much.
Again, your insights and advice are invaluable
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 6:26 pm:
This is really an interesting discussion because when I started as a brand new horse owner three years ago, I had not even heard of NH! I asked the lady who was called to help us out, "If you were to select one book to read to learn as much as you can about horses, which book would that be?" She suggested Bill Dorrance's True Horsemanship Through Feel. Not the easiest read, but I started there, then heard about Parelli. Bought a used First Level Program, got bored with that - mostly because I thought every step had to be perfected before moving on. Not. You can move along much quicker than I did and not frustrate the horse like I did.
Then came more books. Then someone suggested Clinton Anderson. At first he looked to me like a trainer for wild mustangs and other unruly horses. He seemed too aqgressive. But when my young gelding started getting very disrespectful, I tried his Lunging for Respect and found immediate help there. His Riding With Confidence series is pretty good, but again, there are things which don't make too much sense. Like you're suppose to do each exercise at the walk, then trot, then canter. Well, I'm having problems at the canter with my horse, and there's nothing to address that - other than ride it out. But that's tough advice to a novice rider!
I've audited clinics by Mark Rashid and Bryan Neubert - both excellent presentations. I am starting to see what aspects of training are consistent through all these trainers, and then note their spin on the training. These trainers remind me that, like a balanced meal, it's best to take a little from each one. Yet, I've seen an unmanageable horse become putty in the hands of one young lady using Parelli exclusively. Except no one other than she can ride this pony.
I've often thought that we all need one reliable source which explains where to go for whatever our need happens to be. Maybe an interactive program: if you have this type of horse, try such-and-such. I'm embarrassed to admit I've spent way too much money trying to figure things out. I've been taken advantage of by unscrupulous trainers, and I've found some really fabulous horse folks too.
My bottom line, so far!, is to ask around for help from as many folks as you can. Put together your own little reference binder, and keep asking. I have come across only one wonderful instructor for whom a high fee was not paramount (thanks, Terri!) but unfortunately, she is too far and treacherous to travel to. I guess the search is part of the horse experience because I sure haven't found an ultimate source or fountain of equine info in any one place. Just like working with a horse takes a bit of "feel," so does figuring out how you want and need to approach your horse's training needs. It starts by looking inside yourself and determining how soft or tough you are, how good a rider you are, and what resources you have available to you. Just like golf and life, it's all about the journey. There is no destination.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 7:30 pm:
This is an interesting discussion! My earliest experiences with horses came from taking lessons with German instructors (grew up in what is now called Namibia). Those instructors were all about Dressage as foundation for everything. I do not think "natural horsemanship" is anything new - you can go back to Xenophon and find similar principles there!
However - about 10 years ago I went to a John Lyons clinic - really like him. Through friends got introduced to Parelli at one of his "Savvy Clinics". Those are really more shows to get you hooked.
However, as a group we started to work with a Parelli certified trainer and it was really helpful. Especially the ground training, trailer loading, stuff like that. I still use Parelli halters, lead rope and "carrot stick". Not cheap, but lasts and lasts.
Have seen Clinton Anderson on RFD-TV and also read his book. I really think his approach is similar to Parelli - tools are similar too. But I do not like his bending the horse constantly when he rides.
Bottom line - what many have said before - watch, learn, experiment, find out what works for your horse.
Horsemanship is horsemanship. Timing, and listening to what the horse is trying to tell you.
Sorry - got carried away here.
Lilo
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 8:38 am:
I too have spent an embarrassing amount of money on videos and clinics. As discussed on an earlier post, it is almost a must to be certified by one of these "masters" in order to have credibility as a trainer.
Ellie .. In my opinion, they are basically the same in their emphasis on building a foundation, and have many similar methods of doing so. The differences lie in personalities and their approach to more advanced training.
I have found that my methods are more in tune with Dennis Reis, and his approach is more understandable to me. Having said that, if you were looking for the one video to get you started, I would have to recommend the CA "lunging for respect" video. Learning the basic fundamentals for sending exercises, etc. will be used forever in all aspects of future training. Parelli's 7 games and Reis's freedom and awareness courses are similar, but a little more costly I believe.
Sara .. if I thought I could make a living training and caring for horses, I would move to
Siberia. Oh yea, Make sure the corners are really far apart. I'll be watching my back Holly.
DT
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 9:05 am:
I feel Dove2's pain. But you know what I realized a while back? I am getting too hung up on the process--doing things perfectly, worrying about damaging my horse's psyche, looking foolish--to the point where I get paralyzed! I always lament to our trainer (the one who charges reasonable fees while sharing her wonderful talent Dove2 references above) that "I can't do this...I just don't have the right feel." She always laughs at me good naturedly and assures me it's not rocket science. And IT ISN'T. I overanalyze the whole thing!!
As nice as it would be to have a single source that answers all questions....I have to ask, where would the joy of discovery then be? Think about how electric and positive those moments are when you know you've connected!! I tend to want to put it all in a binder too and have the answers immediately handy...but I'm learning that I have got to live in the moment with my horse and not fret about screwing things up. Gosh, aren't horses forgiving? There is no substitute for time, time, and more time.
Dan Sumerel wrote a lovely little poem called The Gap that was in November's issue of the VA Horse Journal. He's a highly regarded trainer in this state. It was so true...(I don't have it with me or I'd post it here)...that as children, we jumped on and rode for joy and with abandon...no fear or self-consciousness. Then comes the time when we give up horses because real life steps in. And then we recognize that something is missing and we return to horses, except this time we get caught up being worried about what others think, making sure that our skills and techniques are perfect. His point is that we keep the "joy de vivre" we experienced as kids in our adult horse activities. That is really, really hard for most people. I know it is for me!!!
I am trying to accept that I am not "gifted" with horses. I would love more than anything to have been blessed with that. But I am tenacious and a good listener, and I do the best I can, which isn't bad. I think next time I'm in the house "studying" whatever current horse book I have (and I have stacks) I'll put it down and head out to the barn, even if it's midnight, and have a conversation with my horses.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 9:28 am:
Would like to see that poem, Terri. Sounds like Dan makes an excellent point about the importance of having a childlike (not childish) wonder and joy in life. Part of the trouble with growing older is that we KNOW all the things that can go wrong . . . many of them we have already experienced, and our joints and bones feel those old injuries as the years pass.
No need for corners, Sara, and no need to "watch your back," Dennis . . . Just put a table between us . . . and stand back to watch us arm-wrestle.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 9:42 am:
Holly, I was just writing you an email...I will get a copy of the poem and send it to you. I won't say Dan is the greatest poet, but what he lacks in sophistication, he makes up with humorous charm, and the fact that almost all of us can completely relate to the subject!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 9:58 am:
I tried posting here yesterday and lost it. Cyber Christmas Scrooges perhaps?
Dennis, having met Holly, I'd say start doing some bicep curls if you are all gonna arm wrestle, LOL!
That money you spent on videos and clinics at least showed you the way. I am glad to hear to are more like Dennis R. in your approach. Maybe I should change my name to Denise? Is that the feminine version of Dennis?
Terri, Holly and the rest: You are so correct in what you are saying. I feel myself getting so frustrated too because I want to be a "Natural Horsewoman"....instead of being one those people who has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time! It's when I quit trying that I have my best days, just go with the flow.....
If some of us are not "gifted" with horses, at least we are gifted with this site and wonderful people sharing their knowledge, mistakes, insights and humor!!! (Terri, I love your last paragraph, I am the same way with my stacks of books)
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 10:10 am:
The Gap
As a child we cared not for structure or form, all we knew was a love of the horse
So we would climb on, anyway that we could, with no thought of danger, of course
We thought little of risk, or how we might look, all that mattered was having some fun
On the back of a horse heading no place at all, just feeling the wind and the sun
A pond or a stream was a place for a swim, with children and horses all wet
We didn’t know what we couldn’t do, and we cared even less, you could bet
We rode up the hills and down them as well, perhaps with a saddle or not,
Yes a halter would work, with lead rope or reins, and sneakers since boots were too hot
Getting on could be awkward so a fence we would climb, with the horse standing quietly near
Then a leap or a jump of blind childish faith, that on landing the horse was still there
So if one child was good then two must be better, to the horse no matter at all
We could walk or go fast, or just stand and laugh, or giggle until off we did fall
And when we fell off we would laugh even more, then struggle to get mounted again
It was part of the plan, first you’re on then you’re off, horses behaved better back then
It is easy to see why kids so loved horses, and the horses enjoyed it all too
It was just about riding and being with horses, there was nothing more fun they could do
But then comes a time when life interferes, growing up puts the childhood away
When the college and dating and working begins, leaving so little time to just play
The point where the horses are just left behind, is so sad as we all do go on
But the true loss is missed until older we get, as the need for a horse comes back strong
By now we are 30 or maybe much more, and our life is not simple at all
Yet something inside, says, “I must get a horse”, there is no way to quiet the call
There once was a saying, “You can never go back”, with horses you know it’s not true
For the need that you feel, to get back on a horse, gets stronger and beckons to you
You find the right horse, the right color and age, as the memories all start to return
The money is flowing, out the door like a river, hubby’s looks are starting to burn
A saddle, a trailer, and so much other stuff, a truck, plus training and board
You just don’t remember it being this costly, how much fun can you really afford?
Then you get to the part where you have to get on, yes you’re taller than you were as a kid
So the distance is less but the struggle seems worse, things aren’t working as well as they did
On the horse you are just a bit nervous, and caution is needed right now
But the feeling comes back of riding a horse, you knew you would remember how
Yet each move of the horse brings a bit of concern, and he senses that you are not sure
Which makes him more nervous than he started out, you hope that the girth is secure
You notice that people are staring, so you try to look like you are fine
Heels down, head up, look where you are going, too much thinking is clogging your mind
Then a noise makes your horse jump a little, not a big spook but only enough
To stir up the fear that adults contain, when the kids would just laugh at such stuff
Now riding a horse as an adult, seems far from the style of the kids
We start with more fear and concern of how others, are judging how they think we did
We have lost some of what made us happy, when riding a horse as a child
We loose way too much of the fearless abandon, our reserve will not let us go wild
We have aches and pains, not there in our youth, and if hurt we would surely miss work
But our biggest fear that stifles us so, is that others may think us a jerk
So we struggle to ride, be as proper we should, as we miss all the fun that we knew
When we rode as a child, just to be on a horse, brought the purest of pleasure so true
Yes the gap between riding as children, and the way that we change growing old
Takes the pleasure away for both person and horse, if the truth of the story be told
We should try to remember the reason, that as children we climbed on a horse
Was no loftier goal than just to have fun; that feeling should still be our course.
The pure pleasure of riding a horse, should never allowed to be lost
For adult or child, to miss all the fun, would be far too heavy a cost.
Whatever you do, Have FUN with your horse!
~ Dan Sumerel
Copyright 2006
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 10:30 am:
I should mention that there are more poems by Dan on his website. If you enjoyed this one, take a look. https://www.sumereltraining.com/. Go to the "Dan Sumerel" button and the poetry link appears underneath.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 10:45 am:
Terri .. guess I am lucky. I haven't found the gap as yet. It is always fun .. hell I still play cowboy out on the trail. "Growing old is inevitable .. maturing is optional". What a great (and accurate) poem.
Holly .. people are gonna' start thinkin' we don't like each other. Angie .. the only time I ever lifted weights was to get the darn things out of the way.
DT
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 2:42 pm:
Aww, Dennis . . . I'm sure that anyone who knows either one of us understands that that isn't true. You know . . . it's just like with horses . . . we love them all . . . but some try our patience more than others.
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Member:
Adriaa
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Posted on Friday, Dec 22, 2006 - 12:39 am:
What a great poem! Yup, I had that gap. Here I am remembering, galloping, flat out racing with my instructor on my horse when I was a kid, eyes running in the wind... Could I do that now? In time, I still have it... a bit more cautious yes.
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New Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 9:52 am:
I love this thread! I've been around horses a loooong time, and have watched the progression from "knock 'em down and teach 'em respect" to "respect 'em and you'll double your return" with fascination. I've been to lots of clinics with Shrake, Jeffries, and others, and my daughter got certified in Lyons/Jeffries round-pen training a few years back. I really thought they were all basically the same until this past August when I heard Curt Pate say that he'd changed his whole approach in the past two years. He mentioned his participation in the Road to the Horse--the AQHA training competition--and some of the things he'd experienced there.
I found a tape of one of the recent RTTH competitions online. If you want to see the differences among the NH trainers, see if you can scare up any of the Road to the Horse videos. That year, Pate competed against Josh Lyons and Clinton Anderson. Anderson happened to win that one, but the nuances of difference among the methods are much clearer when you see them juxtaposed moment-by-moment. Good stuff!
Pate, meanwhile, has come to the conclusion that there is nothing natural about NH. He had an epiphany and decided that nothing we do with horses other than turning them loose is natural for them, and that all the bending and round-pen work is counterproductive. It was interesting that the venue for his comments was an AQHA "Regional Experience"--the first we've had out here in this forgotten corner of NJ--and there was a sanctioned show going on all around him as he reported that showing is the worst, most stressful thing with reining at the top of the heap of stressors. He did say he didn't expect to be invited back. 
So, no, I don't think they're all the same except that they all use, as Dennis said, foundation training and pressure/release. Only clicker training differs in any significant way because it's not pressure/release, but still stresses foundation training.
I'm just glad training has finally come to using the horse's natural inclinations instead of fighting them.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 10:44 am:
Well said Joanne. Watching to RTTH that CA ran on tv, I was questioning how much did it really differ from the days of throwing the saddle on and riding the bucking out of the horse til they were submissive? I've noticed lots of NH get on the horse when they are standing there puffing like crazy, and I guess that makes it safer for the rider...but?
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New Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 3:56 pm:
Angie, it was enlightening watching Pate start a 3-yo filly in the round pen in August. He backed off more than he pushed, which was quite different from what I saw when I spent a couple of days watching my daughter's certification class. And that was entirely different from Richard Shrake's "resistance-free" approach. Shrake told us up front that if you have a resistant horse, don't buy him. If you buy one, don't show him, and if you are going to show, know which judges pin which qualities. That was as different an attitude as I could imagine! He showed us how to test resistance, which was valuable knowledge easy to apply later when we were looking for horses to buy. Linda Tellington-Jones put on the most startling display with her TTEAM approach, though there was no under-saddle work during her clinic. I used her methods to get past a sticky point with a frightened, green-broke, 12-yo brood mare who didn't respond to anything else.
I agree that in some instances the differences between the old style and the new were negligible, but the NH methods, as you noted, are considerably safer for the rider AND for the horse. I've "ridden the bucks" and didn't get hurt, but I've watched others wind up maimed, and I was thrilled when a new method came along, I can assure you. I used to joke that that's why we all had kids we didn't mind throwing on new horses. They bounced better and it wasn't as big a problem if one of them wound up a little bunged up. They didn't have to work in the morning!  Just joking . . . sort of. I'm sure they were equally delighted when we stopped doing that.
I'm in no way against NH. I use the methods myself constantly--as many as I can. I think any learning is better than no learning (though a little learning can, indeed, be dangerous, and videos are no replacement for live work), so every horseman is better off being exposed to as many theories and practices as possible and choosing (wisely) among them as the situation arises.
Just MHO, but I'm sticking to it. 
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 5:44 pm:
Angie, Clinton Anderson stated during the taping of that last colt starting competition that he was doing things differently than he would had he not had the time constraints. They only have three hours total, I think. During the last one he had a lazy horse who didn't want to work and Clinton had to stop and do quiet work just to let her quit huffing and to give her a break. The filly he had was not is good shape and tired easily. What I'm trying to say is that that competition is not a good place to judge how these guy really do their stuff. I have not personally seen anyone but John Lyons get on a tired horse to try to correct something in a horse's training, and I saw him almost ride that horse into the ground to make a point at a clinic in Nebraska a few years ago. Until then, I thought he was very good and kind, but 1/3 of the audience left, could no longer stand to see what he was doing. I left very upset with him and sorry for the horse. And he lost a fan.
Kathleen
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New Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 9:43 am:
Kathleen, that's really sad! I think this is where marketing and training cross paths in an unpleasant way. JL certainly is a master marketer. I stopped being a fan some time back for other reasons. Your experience highlights the "business" of horses that often leads to abuse.
You're right about the competition time constraints. They have three hours over three days, an hour a day. I was very impressed by what they were able to accomplish in such a short time, but it's certainly not the best venue for training a horse. I do think, though, that watching the tape (or the live competition, if you're lucky enough to live nearby) and hearing the comments the trainers make as they work is enlightening in terms of what each of them thinks is important and how each approaches the situation. You sure won't learn how to train from that experience, but there's a lot of good moment-by-moment decision-making going on, and the trainers are able to verbalize what they're doing as they do it. It's like a private tour inside the head of a clnician under stressful circumstances.
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Hi, Joanne. That's very interesting info you posted. Are you wiling to say why you don't agree with JL? That could be very helpful to many of us.
Also, I looked at your website and think it's just great you have a key for the Animal Rescue site--I support that by clicking every day and think it's great to see someone make it even more available!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 10:25 am:
This IS a great thread
Joanne, could you expand on how Shrake showed you how to test resistance before buying a horse?
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 6:02 pm:
Ellie, I'm delighted to meet another Animal Rescue Site fan. Thanks for the kind words.
As for why I don't agree with JL, some of my issues have to do with points in his methods, but most of them involve his decision to put out books and videos that he has admitted to his students do not contain sufficient information for the average horse owner to apply successfully. As I said before, he's a marketing genius. His website lists his certified students,and he sets the price they command and the process by which they intake new horses for training. Not that that's a bad thing, but if I hadn't been told by an absolutely authoritative source about the gaps in the books and videos, I might easily have done things that would have been counterproductive or even dangerous, but which, based on my huge investment in said books and videos, I would have thought were exactly what the clinician ordered. When my daughter got me in the round pen and let me have at my horse with only a few instructions based on the course she'd taken, my big boy nearly took my head off! There was a gap of dangerous proportions in my comprehension of the round-penning process.
In addition, he gives the impression of being able/willing to work with pretty much any horse, but his intake process weeds out the difficult cases. A minor point, perhaps, but one that concerns me.
But I have used some of his methods with tremendous results. Again, it comes down to the horseman's willingness to take bits and pieces, to apply them appropriately, and to know his own horse. There's no way to teach that sixth sense that lets my daughter look at a new horse in the round pen, read him like a book, and say, "He's thinking about running out to the left, but he's worried about_____". I can look at the same horse and say, "Wow! He's got a cute butt!"
Aileen, I've summarized the Shrake clinic in a chapter in my first book (not a plug--I'll be happy to email the original text to you if you'd like). I don't know how to do an attachment here (is that even possible?) and it's really loooooong by forum standards. The article will give you some of the measurements that indicate what discipline and movement the horse is capable of and all of Shrake's "red" and "green lights" that indicate a good level of trainability. I'm happy to share. Not only is it fascinating, but it's information that seems valid and that everyone looking to buy a horse should have.
That's not to say that you can't judge a horse by other parameters, or that every horse will fit the pattern, but I haven't found many gross variations. During lunch at the clinic, my buddy and I took our notes to the barn and measured and tested as many horses as were willing to be caught and stand still for us. That was quite a few, as we took them by surprise. I discovered in a few short minutes, for instance, that my mare, who had been trying her best to convince me otherwise, was perfectly capable of breaking at the poll and collecting beautifully. We went on to do wonderful things that I wouldn't have tried if I'd listened to her.
Example: If you hold the haltered horse on the lead and push his head away from you, and he moves his head away without trying to stomp you to death for your rudeness, that's a sign of trainability. If you use the lead to move him back and to the left, and his hindquarters step away from the direction of movement, that's a good sign. If at any point he grabs your exposed flesh, stands on your foot, and gives you a look that says, "Your move, Big Shot", walk away. Not a good prospect. If the measurement from the poll to the withers is double the measurement from the throatlatch to the chest, the horse can flex without problems and go "long and low". If the proportion is reversed, you bought a deer and shouldn't be trying to ride it.
I do not, however, despite my fondness for some of Mr. Shrake's theories, recommend that you spend the big bucks on his "rhythm balancer". I did. You can have mine.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 6:35 pm:
I am also not a John Lyons fan. I was in the beginning. I am also one that thinks you listen to them all and apply what makes sense to you. Not one of them is perfect. They all learned from lots of different people or ideas or from experience, just like us. They just happened to be smart business men. I have my favourites but that does not make them better, it just means that for me they are easier to understand and what they say makes sense to me. If that makes sense.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 7:01 pm:
Joanne,
Some time ago we had a discussion here about this "checking a horse for trainability or personality" and I had seen Shrake on tv doing some things but not the depth you just went into. I'd love to hear more, book or encyclopedia length is fine with me, lol!
As for the rest of his methods, he is my least favorite. I can't stand seeing his horses going around with their heads so low, moving so slow, they look like they are going to roll right over. And we've had many, many discussions on here about that BTV, (behind the verticle) peanut pushing concept too. And the only video I ever saw of his, he had the horse going round and round, and round, with the reins tied to the stirrups.
So, I don't care for his training methods, but I do respect his ways of checking out a horse.
As for JL, he was the first NH I ever paid attention to. It seemed he went "blah blah blab blab" and never said anything. Same with Parelli, I got nadda dang thing outa his early book called "Natural Horse-Man-ship". Of course, there is that saying the teacher will appear when the student is ready!
Ditto to Katrina 3rd sentence.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 7:11 pm:
Joanne,
Some time ago we had a discussion here about this "checking a horse for trainability or personality" and I had seen Shrake on tv doing some things but not the depth you just went into. I'd love to hear more, book or encyclopedia length is fine with me, lol!
As for the rest of his methods, he is my least favorite. I can't stand seeing his horses going around with their heads so low, moving so slow, they look like they are going to roll right over. And we've had many, many discussions on here about that BTV, (behind the verticle) peanut pushing concept too. And the only video I ever saw of his, he had the horse going round and round, and round, with the reins tied to the stirrups.
So, I don't care for his training methods, but I do respect his ways of checking out a horse.
As for JL, he was the first NH I ever paid attention to. It seemed he went "blah blah blab blab" and never said anything. Same with Parelli, I got nadda dang thing outa his early book called "Natural Horse-Man-ship". Of course, there is that saying the teacher will appear when the student is ready!
Ditto to Katrina 3rd sentence.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 10:39 pm:
Thank you Joanne, I would love to read your article...My email address should be in my profile
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 8:02 am:
Sorry about the double post guys, it wasn't loading at all, I closed out and logged off not expecting anything to show up and today I see I got 2! Dang computer gremlins,lol!
Maybe it wasn't supposed to post as I wasn't being 100% positive about fellow NH guys.
Speaking of NH, I saw the ad for the Road to the Horse Competition last night and this year is Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, and a woman! Sorry, don't recall her name. Wahoo!!
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 8:19 am:
Oh, Joanne, you might've gotten yourself into some hot water here as I, too, would love to read your article.
I saw your book on amazon (great reviews!). Is this from the same book? If so, I'll hop back to amazon and pick one up.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 9:05 am:
Joanne I would like to read your article also.
I like the 'Parelli' concept but really object to the yo-yo move. I have seen several horses who have become very headshy from this move being improperly used, I didn't like it personally right from the start.
I do quite like JL. I find his videos a bit tough to get through, they are in real time so it does take time to watch them.
I found his series of videos
(the first series he put out)(Icouldn't buy them the local library brought them in so I had to hurry and watch one and pass it along) quite thorough, I used his principles to start a 5yr old gelding that was barely halter broke when I got him. One of the local trainers told me the horse was an outlaw but using JL methods he became quite a reliable mount.
I didn't care for CA. But like Katrina says some teachers appeal to some students. I like what you said about the teacher appears when the student is ready. That could apply to different areas also.
I quite like the concept of the TTouch. When Iwas a kid I found that horses responded to rubbing much better than patting. I just needed someone to lay the ideas out for me.
I think I also would really the the DT program, (hint).
Lori
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 10:13 am:
Well . . . ah . . . sure.  You should be getting my email momentarily. I hope you'll find the article useful.
Ellie, yes, it's from that book. I hope you'll enjoy it! I've got a second volume coming out sometime this year. Sometime. Whenever the publisher gets around to "positioning" it. Gotta love the writing biz!
Angie, that woman was Stacy Westfall. Amazing, isn't she? She won the past two years. Stacy Westfall is my idol, second only to Connie Reeves, who taught over 30,000 girls to ride at her ranch in Texas over a 50-year span, and who died in a fall off her horse at the age of 101 (the horse was in its 30's!). 
I think all of us are on the same page. In order to work with animals of any kind (including the humans you and I've been teaching, Ellie), you have to be open to lifelong learning. That means taking every bit of available information and processing it as needed. I've found that some horses absolutely hate the JL round-penning process. I've had two horses fail completely at learning to trailer-load using his method. I don't know why. One seemed terribly confused and outright terrified by the tap-tap-tapping of the dressage whip on her back legs, and the other just resented the entire thing. We had to come up with alternatives for them that were different from anything I've ever seen, but they worked. That confused mare was also the only horse I've seen who hated the TTEAM touch stuff. She won't stand for being massaged by my equissage lady, either. It takes all kinds!
Has anyone here read/seen the Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling method? I have both of his books and his new DVD. Haven't had time to watch that yet. I really think he's on to something. He seems to have synthesized several of the NH theories into one, slightly off-center approach, and if it ever stops raining, I intend to give it a shot with my attitudinal Paint gelding.
Any thoughts on his work?
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 10:19 am:
Cindy, what do you mean by wheat collar'?
Thanks Lori
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 11:55 am:
If you look at Tellingtons bk she has a picture of a horse who has a perfect shaft of wheat on his chest and according to arab breeders of old those were to be avoided because it meant unstable/unable to control emotions. She has a whole section on facial swirls how many, pattern,location etc that indicate personality traits and boy she's good! Cindy
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 1:08 pm:
i've heard of Klaus and read and seen his stuff.. i have great respect for his methods and while i understsand that some people might find him off center, i think he's on the right track.. traditional "natural horsemanship" is still very traditional, and i think traditional methods can be very lacking...klaus has taken a step deeper into the mind of the horse that some people might find way off, but if you start to put it together you will see a big difference in your horses.... he's very similar to the guy i worked with...
the best trainers are the ones that you dont need to "shop around" to find what works for your horses, because all horses are treated as individuals and a good trainer just adapts to it..
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 2:02 pm:
Melissa, thanks for your input. That's the way I feel about what I've read of him so far. I'm looking forward to fiding out more.
I spent the day yesterday with a fellow barn manager/horse owner, and naturally we fell to comparing our real life (as opposed to larger-than-life) trainers. We'd each had a similar negative experience with two different, very close-minded, traditional trainers. In both cases our horse's potential was compromised and dulled by the one-size-fits-all approach. Each of us had also moved on to fabulous, flexible trainers who spent less time tsk-ing over our equines' (and our own) shortcomings and found ways to help us excel. I'm hoping that those people are in the majority, and that my friend and I simply fell in with the wrong crowd.
I'm really curious about whether or not there's a wide gap between what we on the East Coast consider appropriate training and what the West Coasters and Central States riders expect. Anyone want to tackle that topic? I have to say that JL is persona non grata in my neck of the woods. I live in George Morris Country, and it's not unusual to hear a fellow h/j person or DQ (I'm working on that status--I'm a DP right now ) point at a horse that's not forward enough and pronounce him a "Lyons horse". They're convinced that all NH leads to backwards horses, and they pin it on Lyons because he's the only one they've heard of.
Whaddya say? Any comments?
BTW, my insider source tells me that GaWaNi Ponyboy is a Jewish kid from Long Island. They graduated in the same Lyons group. A little useless gossip, but I think it's funny. I've got his books, too, and I've done the "be with your horse" thing. The herd loves it when I go all Ponyboy on them. I can see them watching me as they graze, wondering if I'm actually going to eat their grass or just stand around with my thumb up my cell phone.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 2:50 pm:
Hi Joanne--interesting question and discussion. In Virginia, which has the fifth largest horse industry nationally, we are heavy on the h/j, foxhunting, eventing, "traditional" pursuits, etc., but we also have a great (and increasing) number of people riding in many other disciplines: driving, endurance, speed, pleasure, team penning, reining (getting bigger all the time). From my own personal observation (highly subjective), it appears that NH is definitely more prevalent among the western riders...leading me to believe this is more of a discipline-related choice than a geographical one. At least on the east coast. Then again, I have plenty of friends/acquaintances who just get on and ride...they aren't the least bit interested in all the training mania. They figure it out as they go along. They've probably never spent a dime on a trainer and have never felt they needed to.
"Appropriate training" would vary so greatly that I'm not sure we could define it even within one discipline! (Which is why we're having this great conversation!)
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 3:02 pm:
I can see, Joanne, why the reviews of your book at amazon called you so funny! Just to let you know, I'll tell you what I think of Klaus; I've just spent a bit of cash for a book and 2 DVDs.
My 4-year-old would be described well by adjectives used in this thread; attitudinal and resentful sometimes fit quite nicely. I need some new perspectives and look forward to learning some with Mr. Hempfling.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 3:30 pm:
i'm from new england and was a h/j and DQ for a long while... i had been trained in some "non-traditional" methods but certainly couldnt find much acceptance for them in the northeast... i managed a major DQ barn, but got lucky enough for it to be owned by a woman who wasnt quite content with what she got... in her case she felt that the horses could give better (she never really saw any "shortcomings" in any horse-they just needed a better way for the best to come out), but sometimes she just couldnt get it... so she kept studying and eventually we fell in with someone who allowed us to deepen our connection with our horse...but we were the few, and were the most "advanced" of his clients... we actually lost a lot of boarders because of our change - even tho our horses were going better... the whole NH/roundpenning thing was certainly poo-poohed...
whenever i went to equine affaire or one of the other major horse venues in the area, all the big name people went to the big names in their respective discipline, and it seemed like all the backyard people went to the NH types...even tho they wanted to do dressage or hunt seat...
now i've moved to texas and DQ's are few and far between! as terri said, people here just ride and figure it out.. however, there does seem to be a lot more acceptance of NH types, and round penning a horse is commonplace, even if they dont follow any "path"
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 3:36 pm:
Does Hempfling have anything out besides Dancing With Horses, and What Horses Reveal? Both are very interesting. What horses reveal is kinda new agey or something weird, but I keep thinking of it when looking at my horses and seeing how close he comes to their personalities.
I have a 4 year old that always has the whites of her eyes showing, and she has the 2 swirls on her forehead too....interesting little horse! She's smart but keeps me on my toes too. Was a rescue case and my (now) 12 year old daughter wanted her but they are not a good match.
The one thing I remember from Dancing With Horses is the training arena size is a certain size based on that is what makes the horses get their hind quarters under them the best. Was it exactly 60'? Anyone remember that?
O.K. Joanne, I guess before I head out I'd better got to Amazon and see what this book is. It's after Christmas I am a food diet, Wal Mart diet and AMAZON Diet!!!
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Member:
Adriaa
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 4:02 pm:
For what it's worth here are my 2 cents, it is becoming more prevalent in the NE, there are a few practitioners. But it's all pretty new to me, 20 some odd years ago I never heard of it, and alhtough I know Monty Roberts was doing it in the 60's, I guess it was really an "alternative" way of breaking and gentling Mustangs, but it is spreading, mainly because of all these guys (and gals).
On Clinton's show last night he had a Dressage rider with a pretty nice horse, they were comparing lateral work, flexing and the Dressage guy said that a lot of his students and new horses were using a lot of the same exercises as CA. It was pretty cute, CA talking away as he usually does, the Dressage guy quiet. Then they swapped horses, Clinton did a pretty nice job actually, but I'm sure that wasn't the first time, Plus is was a really high level horse.
I think you take what you can from each of them, I personally like Dennis Reis, he's a soft guy, he's speaks softly, and is gentle, and I think he translates more to all disciplines not just reining, or western. CA is very business like, but that's his personality, and he talks non stop. The Parelli games intrigue me, but his DVDs and lesson plans are sooo expensive. PLUS they make it all look so easy, and sometimes I wish CA would use a horse that doesn't know how to do these things. Lastly I do also think it's something you should do with someone who is trained, doing by myself, at least now seems difficult. It's one thing to watch and read but another to have someone physically show you, work with you.
the Klaus Hempfling books sound interesting...Casper has double whorls on his face and shows lots of white in his eyes. he is smart but has issues.
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 5:27 pm:
In Linda Tellingtons book she shows how the best kind of swirls is right between the eyes and goes from there.Multiple swirls mean complicated personalites.Triple swirls are complex but not unpredictable.Long single swirl between eyes means a horse who is friendly and enjoys people. There are many other combinations lots of fun to check out horses in your life and see how her observation pan out. Cindy
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 9:51 pm:
Dear Contributors,
Tomorrow, I'm going to pop up some popcorn, and just relax... as I read through this wonderful post...and try to absorb all this high quality information I mean it!
Best,
Tonya
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Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 9:55 pm:
Cindy,
which Linda Tellington book are you referring to? I don't have any books by her, but love to read about the personality/temperment "tests", "signs", no matter how silly it may be. Actually, based on what you just said, it seems pretty accurate for my 4!!
By any chance, does a small swirl mean a very timid horse?
We need to find the original discussion on this...it was Sara maybe who asked about methods to check for a horses personality or trainability originally? Or Imogen?? hmmm...
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 9:53 am:
[I just wrote a very long post, which disappeared when I accidentally clicked a link to the left that popped up when I was trying to click "preview/post". I'm trying this again. I apologize in advance if this is a double post.]
This is really getting interesting!
Angie, I think Hempfling only has two books and one DVD out. I could be wrong. The new book's intro goes into detail about the first book, so I'm guessing there weren't any in between.
Cindy, I've got to say I've never had much luck in matching my horses' personalities with the Linda T-J swirls and whorls theory. Maybe I need to revisit that. I see she's got a book out that combines all of her stuff in one volume. I'm going to order that and start over. I must be missing something.
Melissa, I think you've hit on an interesting point. I am, technically, a "backyard" person. Granted, it's a big backyard, but I own five of the six horses on the property now. We used to run a training/lesson/boarding business before my daughter ungratefully fell in love and defected to PA with her husband. Now it's a private farm. We boarded at a backyard barn for three years before I bought this place, so that's been our longest-running habitat. I suspect that anyone who is interested in having horses at home (think very hard before you do that, then go have a drink and think some more ) has a different perspective on riding. Without other riders, trainers, barn managers and the like to set the tone, I think we tend to be more experimental. I think we also like to keep things simple and avoid bodily harm, so NH has a certain appeal to us. I do trailer out for "traditional" lessons, but at home it's all NH. My friends feel the same way.
There's quite a split between the traditional and the NH approach even among professionals who attempt to combine them. I rode in a clinic in October with an amazing trainer, and though she had a wonderful NH-esque approach that got even the worst trails-only horse in the bunch looking DQ-ready in a few hours, there was still that edge of a battle being waged. Slight, but still present. Actually I found it a near-perfect blend, as the horses really did seem comfortable and confident yet managed to look as if they were doing something meaningful with their feet and bodies all the while.
Adria, you have a channel with CA on it? Wow! I'd love to see one of the big clinicians work an older, trained animal instead of the babies that tend to be standard at the clinics. Only Linda T-J and Shrake worked with older horses, and Linda didn't do any mounted work in the whole three days of the clinic.
BTW, I looked in Dancing With Horses and found that the "picadero" is a square ring 30 meters on a side. I guess that translates to roughly a 90-foot diameter round pen. Sixty feet is what JL recommends in order to allow enough "personal space" for the horse so you can release pressure by backing up. Hempfling uses a 20-foot rope, so the horse is never more than 20 feet away, which makes sense. More than that and old folks like me would have to have nap stops during our sessions.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 10:58 am:
A lot of very interesting discussion here. As Holly said earlier, the journey never ends and the learning never stops. It is easy to see that we all have different goals and ambitions for our horses or ourselves. It makes sense that there must be many different approaches and or methods to get there.
The key to any discipline IMO is a good foundation both mentally and physically. The horse needs to develop his confidence and balance and master basic athletic moves. Once a good foundation is established and you move on to specific discipline, there is a whole new world to explore.
I can work with a new horse, and using my methods establish a wonderful foundation. I can then advance and develop a trusted trail mount, or a reasonably good barrel or pole horse. If you want a good cutting, reining, HJ, or Dressage horse, you will have to find another trainer with different methods.
Many of the top level trainers today start with a horse that has that foundation already established. They may have no idea how it was done, or may not even have the knowledge to do it themselves. They are still able to take that horse to the next level.
I guess my only point is that no one can possibly know it all, so you must be open to a lot of different training styles. If it is humane, and gets the desired results while maintaining a physically and mentally balanced horse, it is probably a good method. Keep an open mind with the well being of your horse the most important factor and horsemanship will continue to get better and better no matter what it is called. Today's "natural horseman" is yesterday's "horse whisperer"
and who knows what it will be called tomorrow. Don't get caught up in the labels, just examine the content and make sure it is good for you and your horse.
DT
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 12:02 pm:
" Getting in TTouch" is the book with all the physical things from swirls to ear shape that indicate personality and as I said we visited some 30 horses when I first got the book and found it very accuate . Any help I can glean in understanding and working with the horses is much appreciated. Besides it was great good fun going around a checking out all the horses! Cindy
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 4:29 pm:
I am pleased to report that I just watched the Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling What Horses Reveal video. I am prepared to trade my dibs on the Flying Frenchman and his horses for a week with Klaus. Not only is he a cutie, but he's really got something going on with his system. His training system, that is.
I do (naturally) have a complaint, however. He does not explain what he's doing during the video. The book explains better, but I really wanted to see the process and hear his thoughts at the same time. How frustrating! And the book isn't even one of those cool, spiral-bound jobs that you can hang over the rail and read as you fly by on the end of the longe line.
So--shades of JL--here's another brilliant horse handler whose methods will remain a mystery to anyone who can't manage a trip to Germany just now. One more glass of wine, and I'll probably stop crying, but my disappointment is boundless.
Now I'm going to have to order the Dancing With Horses video and hope that my Klausling can redeem himself.
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Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 4:34 pm:
I would like to suggest a website/publication that some of you may know about already called "The Eclectic Horseman." To me, it's always had a sort of "underground" feel...it cuts right to the chase, and has an amazing assortment of horse folk who contribute, many of whom you will recognize, and some you'll be glad to have discovered. They come from all backgrounds, disciplines, and levels of horsemanship. As Dennnis says above, "don't get caught up in labels." Most of what I've read on E-H rises above that. It's just what is good for you and your horses.
The publication is a bit pricey and I don't currently subscribe ($30 a year/6 issues I think, and HA is a better use of that $30 in my view), but I have a few back issues that I considered worthy of saving. The website has a very good selection of articles culled from the magazines. Check it out at www.eclectic-horseman.com.
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Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 4:38 pm:
Very disappointing Joanne...but the title said it all. "What Horses Reveal"----not what Klaus reveals. Although from what you've said, that would certainly sell more videos....
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Jmarie
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 4:53 pm:
. . . and so the quest to see more of Klaus continues.
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Leilani
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 5:23 pm:
I had the Klaus book and video and neither helped. Fun to watch though. Leilani
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Adriaa
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 6:45 pm:
Maybe we should choose NH practitioners based on cuteness. Ok, sorry it was that glass of wine...
Joanne, one of the reasons I like watching Dennis Reis is that he does work on older horses, generally he works on folks "problem" horses during his tour. Each horse has a specific issue that he works on. It's (to me at least) more interesting than watching the work on the babies. AND he works with horses of all disciplines.
But the premise for all of this remains the same, no matter the issue, working on trust and softening.
As with everything I find the commercialism of this NH business too much. They all have these huge ranches, sell all these products.
I just bought a book by Kelly Marks, I really liked it. She was a Monty Roberts student.
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Skye
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 8:20 pm:
The commercialism is what bothers me, too; thus the comment in my first post about shelling out $50 for a 30-minute video. That makes me think that money is their sole goal, or at least their primary one.
I have a book by Kelly Marks and very much like it, too. I've also seen her on BARKING MAD, a British shows that helps people with "problem" animals. She seems very good there.
I'm giving serious thought to trailering my 4-year-old (if he'll get into the trailer!) to Dennis or Alden or Holly or Christos (where IS Christos) or any number of you. From Maine to California, Indiana, Kansas, Greece, I'm gettin' readier and readier!
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Member:
Muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 9:26 pm:
WOW guy's it's like reading a book -
I wrote down a lot of names so I think I will be web surfing for a while to check out these guys.
I already am familiar with JL (get the MAG) with CA - bought the book, with Parrelli - had the trainers, Rashid, TTouch, and old fashioned Balanced riding & Lastly just get on and ride. ALL GREAT. My Pholosophy goes in two directions - 1 take all that you hear toss it all in a blender and homogonize it till you get something that works for you. and second - don't be afraid to admit you need help. The best trainer I have, I have now- I call him a People Whisperer. He is Local in Santa Fe, NM trains Mustangs and is teaching me to Talk Horse and understand my backyard kids. I don;t know who said it above short of that wonderful poem, Lets be kids - get on or be with them and ENJOY!!! Smile, Giggle, have fun. Seize the day and the Equine.
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Sswiley
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 9:40 pm:
OK, I have been the guilty "fly on the wall" But that comment of Joanne's ". . . as you fly by on the end of the longe line." KILLED me .
I started CA's lunging for respect yesterday. Got all the videos like a good girl. I have to wonder about the lack of forward comment made earlier. After I did the backing excersise with my mare (made her madder than a hornet by the way), I saw her rearing several times in the pasture the next day. She has not done that in years. It does worry me a bit.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 8:39 am:
Shelly,
Sounds like your mare is "adjusting her attitude" a little bit. I wouldn't worry about it, she'll get over it.
I think the hardest part of Lunging for Respect is getting your timing perfect and reading your horses response correctly. (of course that applies to anything horse related don't it?...sorry) My sensitive but tempermental mare had a cow over the whole L for R concept at first. Backed into the fence, took a post out with her leg, and had to recover from that before we could continue! The while she was healing I had time to reflect on what I did wrong, and realised I had to ask in a more gentle, quiet manner. Now she's fine with it, and it was all worth it.
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 9:14 am:
Angie, that's just the sort of thing I managed when I tried using the JL round-penning methods before I really had a clue. Too much pressure, too big a response, and Zip and I scared the bejeezus out of each other. He ran sideways and up, right into the panel, and I ran sideways, hit myself in the head with the end of the heading rope I was using (as per video instructions), and nearly put my own eye out. We both recovered, and eventually we figured out the missing pieces. It's all so quiet and gentle!
I'm not at all sure I wouldn't be just as concerned as you are, Shelley, about the unaccustomed rearing in the pasture. Horses do hold a grudge. My horse psychic actually put it differently. She said my mare was trying to communicate with me, knew I could hear her, assumed I was ignoring her, and had to scream to get my attention. I still couldn't hear her as I was lying on my back in the field waiting for my breathing to resume, and she was back at the barn talking trash about me to the rest of the herd.
It's so hard to be sure that you know what they're saying, isnt' it? Adria, you're so right. It's about working on trust, and that starts with really understanding the horse's point-of-view. I think it's key that all (I believe) of the NH clinicians we've talked about were exposed from an early age (no, that's not another reference to what Klaus isn't revealing) to dozens, if not hundreds, of horses. When I think back to the stupid things I did with my first horse simply because I hadn't had enough time in the herd, so to speak, to have a clue what she was about, I'm embarrassed.
Which reminds me of something Curt Pate said during the clinic in August. He was working the filly in the pen, and she was obviously not tuned in. She was focused on OUT, and nothing else. He said that we all need to remember--and he was aiming this specifically at other clinicians he never actually named--that horses can only focus on one thing at a time, and it's usually either food or escape. We may be within feet of them and not even be on their radar. That can make the situation dangerous. If you don't notice that the horse isn't with you, you can make assumptions that are unwarranted.
He went on to apply that to the under-saddle work that involves using more than one aid and requesting multiple responses at one time. Unless each response has been firmly implanted to the point of being knee-jerk for the horse, then it's all just a muddle, and he said a lot of horses wind up abused or violent because of the flood of stimulation without sufficient clarity.
I really like Curt Pate. He's not as cute as Klaus, but he's one smart cookie.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 9:48 am:
Horse psychic? Oooo, neat.
Funny, but it was a stray cat that had kittens in our tack room that really opened my eyes to an animals ability to communicate. Yes, I am going some place with this! Momma had her kittens in a box and we were busy oohing, and awwing over them and she kept looking at me, and looking at something else. It was this very intense look, and finally I realised she was looking at the water bowl! I put it under her nose, and she drank and drank. Then, as only cats can do, gave me a brief glance and wink, and ignored me. I've never been a cat person, but Emmy opened my eyes to subtle things that all animals do to communicate with us. (She's also the only cat I've ever missed; we gave her and her kittens away to an eldery man who just looooves cats...we were at our "cat limit")
Joanne,
Could you email me that chapter from your book also? The one Aileen asked about? I believe I have a credit at Amazon, and your whole book looks great so I'll probably add it to my equine library eventually.
I found that with 2 of my horses, the whip is not a good thing to point with, especially when trying to get the horse to go quietly along the fence. The sending exercise between me and the fence. They just got scared with that. Now they are fine with it, but at first it was overload for their brains.
What did Pate say to do to get the focus on you? I have a big guy that likes to look everywhere but at me, and he is dangerous IMO for that reason.
I bet watching Klaus on video is great....he is cute! And I love his idea of a well put together horse. Nice short back, powerful hindquarters.....I can't stand these long backed no butt horses...but that's another discussion!
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 10:09 am:
The clinician who really changed my ideas about horses and training is Mark Rashid. He is totally into "considering the horse". His books are outstanding and he makes it very clear there are no receipts for training horses - each horse is an individual and just as soon as you decide one method of training works - a horse will come along to turn that all upside down. For anyone not familiar with him you really have a treat in store: https://www.markrashid.com I only wish I had know about him years ago.
CK
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 10:10 am:
Joanne, Me too, me too! May I receive an email too? I'm really enjoying what you have to say.
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 10:30 am:
The article is on its way.
Yes, a horse psychic. I've found them invaluable. Even the bad ones (and they are certainly in the majority) give an owner reason to focus full attention on a horse's behavior. That, alone, is worth the price. Call it an expensive baseball bat to the side of the head.
What a neat experience you had with that cat! Even my chickens sometimes surprise me with their ability to use those little brains to get me to do whatever they want. Beady eyes staring you down make you stop and think.
Pate used mild pressure/release to get the mare moving and focused inside the pen instead of outside. Like JL, he used a rope tossed lightly onto her hindquarters. Once he got her to look at him (she was giving him sidelong glances, but he waited for a full-on look), he used touch. Touching her seemed to make her notice him. He used a lot of touching. In fact, he never really took his hands off the horse once he was sure she knew he was there. He did the same thing in the RTTH video, so I'm guessing it's part of his program. I'd never heard of him before the clinic (danged Westerners! ), so I can't pretend I know what he's all about. He made a point of how important it is to always have one hand/arm on the horse so you can predict any sudden movements and not be caught out by them.
My big guy likes to play the ignoring game too. I know when he's in that mood it's pointless to try to do anything until I have his full attention. Fortunately he's pretty easy. He loves clicker training more than anything, so I only need to grab a clicker and a handful of frosted mini-wheats, and he's on me like velcro. Find the key to your horse's deepest desire, and you'll be able to get him in your pocket. Sometimes throwing out the lesson plan and jumping on the "teachable moment" is the best approach there is.
Yeah, Klaus is a definite hottie. I'm a die-hard Leone Brothers in Tight Pants fan, but I do believe Klaus has a bit more je ne sais quoi going on. Can't understand a word he says--my German is strictly first year--but I didn't need to. He's built the way he likes his horses.
Which, by the way, is also my style. Big butts and short backs describes every one of my animals, including my dashing little hyper-attitudinal mini who told the psychic that we don't "get" him because he's a mystical beast who can morph at will into a unicorn. I had him gelded, which knocked the morph right out of him. Keep that in mind when you come across mystical beasts in your herd.
But that's another thread entirely.
BTW, did any of you who watched the 2003 RTTH video (with Pate, Josh Lyons, and CA) get irritated with CA's incessant whip-cracking? Maybe it's just me . . .
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 10:41 am:
Sorry . . . I didn't see you until posted. Sure, Dove2. It's in the mail.
Cheryl, I don't know how we missed Mark Rashid! His Life Lessons From a Ranch Horse should be required reading for all horse owners. His other books are wonderful, too. AND he's high on the Cutenss Quotient scale! He's truly amazing, and I'd really love to see him in action.
Anyone out there been to one of his clinics?
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 11:11 am:
I would mortgage the house to be able to attend one of his clinics. The one thing that bugs me is that he doesn't give an outline for training and that is exactly the one thing that makes him so good. I tried the CA backup method on Robberman and scared the beegeebers out of him. I knew before I did it that it was too much for him but tried it anyway ----- well just duh! ! What's so neat about Rashid's books is that every time I read them I find an AH HA - Maybe some day - - -
CK
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 11:27 am:
OK Tonya....hope you've got your popcorn ready. Posting this article will make this thread a novella. I wouldn't normally post something so LOOOOONG, but it touches on many aspects we've covered above and some we haven't, and does it extremely well. The author, Sylvanna Smith, is from the hunter/jumper world. (From the Eclectic Horseman site):
Conversation With a Critic
If you’ve been around “natural horsemanship” circles for any length of time, no doubt you’ve come across The Critics. They’ve never been to a clinic, never read an issue of Eclectic Horseman, but nonetheless they’re sure this horsemanship is a bunch of nonsense hawked on a gullible public by greedy gurus with their traveling magic shows.
I’ve encountered my share of The Critics, mostly on Internet newsgroups, which tend to be populated with people for whom bedevilment is a greater pleasure than enlightenment. In the process, I’ve had a lot of experience assuaging The Critics. My evil twin has lots to say on the subject, but within the bounds of civility and propriety, the conversation might actually go something like this...
“So what is this stuff that you go to all these clinics for?”
The approach is often called “natural horsemanship” (“NH” for short), for want of a better term. It's a modern implementation of the principles brought to this country by the Conquistadors, who needed light, willing horses for battle. We don't ride into battle anymore, of course, but those qualities also make a great partnership for dressage, eventing, ranch work, and other riding sports.
“That’s what we all want. What makes ‘natural horsemanship’ supposedly different?”
The differences can be subtle and philosophical, but they seem to be clearly recognized by the horse. These methods encourage the horse to be mentally engaged in the training process, enabling him to search toward release rather than bump into fixed limits. For example, it would be typical for a trainer to set up multiple options, where the right option is easy and the wrong answer is difficult—allowing the horse to explore his options and choose the “right” one, rather than compelling him to it. In subtle ways, a full gamut of behaviors can be shaped with the horse's active and willing involvement.
“But what’s the difference if you just end up at the same result?”
Folks who favor NH would say it's not necessarily the same result. The horse that complies because he has been told to comply, or because he is afraid not to comply, is different from the horse that complies because he thinks his rider's ideas are pretty much his ideas too. For sensitive horses,
especially, training and performance really do seem easier, more voluntary, with this kind of partnership.
“This so-called ‘natural horsemanship’ is all marketing hype, just repackaging the same old thing.”
Granted, there are self-proclaimed “horse whisperers” around, those who would shrink-wrap and package their trademarked methods for profit, in which the horse is more a pawn than a beneficiary. These marketers have gained mass-market audiences, and on the power of their self-promotion alone, they have made their names almost synonymous with “natural horsemanship”—whether or not they fairly represent its ideals.
Folks who are honestly pursuing purity in their horsemanship shun the celebrity hype too. They follow the teachings of horsemen you might never have heard of—such as Bill and Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and the horsemen they have inspired—folks who were never motivated by fame or profit, only the good of the horse.
“A horse is a horse, period. Apply common sense, Horse 101, and you won’t need any clinicians and their round-pen mysticism.”
Why settle for Horse 101 when we can have the graduate-level Horse 1001 course instead? Common sense is the foundation for all good horsemanship, but how many people have really explored the full potential of where common sense and “horse sense” can lead us?
Too often, our communications with the horse are stuck in the belief that the horse is a simplistic, dull animal. Most folks tug on horses to lead them around, hold them under the chin to stand still, chuck or squeeze their legs to go, squeeze their fingers on the reins to slow or turn, use cross-ties for grooming and saddling, use side reins or draw reins to set head position, use leverage bits whenever precision and high-speed control is required, and so on.
Those are just a few examples of Horse 101, common-sense horse practices that you’ll see at any barn, no matter what discipline. But we’re talking about sensitive, aware animals that can feel a fly landing on them. They’re capable of a much finer Horse 1001 level of communication with us if we would only offer it.
“It’s just a matter of being Alpha Horse. That’s all you need, and the horse respects you.”
Dominance, force, punishment, and "alpha" status are popular themes in horsemanship. Yet profound results are achieved when the human stops perceiving himself as superior to the horse, and explores partnership instead of dominance, willing cooperation instead of force, guidance instead of
punishment, and mutual respect instead of "alpha" status.
Now, some folks might bristle at the implication that the horse deserves our humility. Or that he's a sensitive, thinking, feeling, decision-making animal. But anyone willing to hear that message will surely admit that the horse is a fine teacher and partner indeed, when he is allowed to participate in the conversation.
“What a bunch of psycho-babble. You just have to show them who’s boss.”
It’s certainly human nature to want to be The Boss, and to create and win contests with the horse. This is what happens when the horse is in trouble and needs help, and the human doesn't really know how to help him. The human lets pride get in the way and imputes all sorts of evil intentions on the action. They say, “This horse is defying me; he’s trying to make me look bad. He doesn’t want to do it.”
The next thing you know, it’s a contest. The human makes it a win or lose situation, and if you’re not careful, the horse comes out the winner. Or the horse gets the job done, but not in the right frame of mind.
“I don’t care how the *&#$ horse feels about it; I just want to get the job done.”
Within your own experience, say at work, do you do a task better if you want to do it— if the request to do it is polite and followed by gratitude? Sure you do! Good management starts with a dialog, not a diatribe. You inspire more cooperation with promises than with threats.
Now transfer that thought to the horse. Humans are so eager to command and demand horses to do things for us, knowing we can back it up with force if the horse doesn’t do it. On the surface, that usually works, but the horse is so much more than surface. The horse might be doing some amazing things, but if he’s pinning his ears and switching his tail, doesn’t that diminish the beauty and joy of it?
Imagine how much more the horse will volunteer to give if the relationship is a dialog of “please” and “thank you.” The horse just might start his part of the conversation with “What would you like me to do,” instead of “Oh yea, make me.” Then your job gets done easier and with more quality.
“Once you start giving, you won't believe how much you get back,” says Ray Hunt, a key mentor in this type of horsemanship. “We have to have something to give the horse, before we can take.”
“I give him three meals a day. Who has time for a touchy-feely search for Dobbin’s inner child?”
If you value and preserve the horse’s state of mind, you end up saving time in the end. A willing horse learns and complies faster than a defensive or coerced horse, no?
The key is to allow the horse to contribute to the conversation, rather than forcing our ideas on him. "You don't make him learn, you set it up to allow him to learn,” says Ray. “Set it up, and give him a chance to figure it out. You have to give him that dignity.”
“Dignity, geez, gimme a break. Somebody’s got to be in charge. It’s either you or the horse.”
Dominance isn't a theme I think about too much. I like to think more about fair leadership, which is a little different. It's like being the one to lead the dance, with a willing dance partner. I get to lead, but he's coming along because it seems like a fine idea to him too. Mark Rashid calls it passive leadership. It seems to me that horses are happier in their work, and quicker to learn new skills. Since I don't have a whole lot of time to ride, I'm happy to do anything that gets me good results in less time.
“Are you claiming that y’all never hit or pressure your precious horsies?”
Nobody should enjoy doing either, but to create choices for the horse to search toward release, there often is some pressure. But ideally, it isn’t physical, and if it is physical, it isn’t hitting/punishment. Punishment is an after-the-fact action, often delivered randomly and in anger, intended to inflict pain for some recent past behavior. No, we don't do that, or we sure try not to.
We will use “negative reinforcement,” perhaps just pressure of some kind, but in a very specific way: (1) It is frequently not physical contact at all, (2) it is designed to shape up the correct response rather than punish a past response, (3) it is applied in a way that actually guides the horse toward the desired response, (4) it's never done in anger, and (5) it is released the instant the horse is formulating the “right” response.
“Face it, sometimes horses make mistakes and need to be punished for it.”
If you acknowledge the horse as an animal that basically wants to get along and protect himself, then what humans perceive as “mistakes” are actually very logical choices, as far as the horse sees it. Based on his experience and how you set things up, he is doing what he thinks is “right.”
When you consider it from the horse’s perspective, it’s clear that punishing a “mistake” just builds mistrust. Instead, after a horse makes a move that you didn’t want, just start over. This time you’ll know what he'll do wrong and can catch it before it happens. Encourage what you’re asking to become his idea.
“My horses have to be disciplined. I can’t have them disobeying me.”
When things don't work out as we’d like them to, humans tend to label it, “He doesn’t WANT to.” But the horse just doesn’t know. We strive to help him to success instead of
setting him up to fail and get corrected for it.
"Learn to forgive mistakes,” Ray tells us. “Don't worry if he doesn't get it right at first. He just doesn't know. If you get too critical about mistakes, then they stop trying to work at figuring it out. Eventually, wrong things will fade into the background and good, new things will come forward. It’s like playing music by ear. There are some good notes and some sorry ones. You try to get by the sorry notes to the good ones and build on them.”
“That’s the problem with you touchy-feely people. There’s this girl at my barn who’s into this stuff, and her horse is the worst behaved one of all.”
I can’t speak for this rider or her horse, because I haven’t seen them. But consider three possible takes on it.
(A) You might not know where this horse started and how far he might have come. People who are drawn to this type of horsemanship are also frequently drawn by the challenge of troubled horses and very green ones.
(B) This type of horsemanship favors allowing the horse to explore “right” and “wrong” behaviors, to discover for himself that the right thing is easy and the wrong thing is difficult. That means in any session, you’ll see moments when the horse appears to be misbehaving. But if the principle is applied faithfully, the horse improves as he goes along. Perfection comes not from demanding perfection of the horse, but from getting a little bit better every day.
(C) Not everybody who has good intentions has good technique. Just as with any way of working with horses, poor technique yields poor results—no matter how sound the underlying philosophy.
“This client of mine had a ditzy mare, and she spent an hour wheeling it around in those circles you call one-rein stops, and the horse just got worse.”
Back to “C” above. Good intentions are no guarantee of good technique. A correctly executed one-rein stop is not “wheeling around in circles.” The calming influence of this exercise comes from the horse making a clear, deep lateral step with the hindquarters, with the inside hind leg reaching well under his body, in front of the outside hind. The most common mistake riders make with this exercise is just what you describe, riding a small circle, which isn’t the same thing at all—and therefore doesn’t produce the same results.
Even when the one-rein stop is done correctly, it must be used with good judgment. It's easy to overdo this exercise and end up badgering or overconfining the horse when he might just need to stride out on a loose rein for a while.
“I watched a clinic with a local ‘natural horsemanship’ trainer who didn’t fix any of the problems riders wanted help with.”
Discernment is needed, because there are charlatans in every field. As the horsemanship popularized by “The Horse Whisperer” became trendy enough to look profitable, a lot of folks hung out a
shingle as clinicians, even though their credentials might be nothing more than an afternoon watching a Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman clinic. As in most areas of horsemanship, the pretenders outnumber the praiseworthy.
Let’s suppose I give this local clinician the benefit of the doubt, and he/she is good. Chances are, riders came into the clinic asking for help on higher-level skills, and the clinician saw foundation skills lacking—and concentrated on building that base. It’s no different from the typical dressage clinic where FEI riders are “reduced” to walking a square or trotting on the longe, or A-circuit jumpers are trotting cavaletti. Good horsemen emphasize good basics.
“These ‘horse whisperers’ are going to get people hurt, because people will come home from a demo thinking they can reform an untamed rogue.”
I’d sure hate to see what those same folks do when they come home from the circus! Here tiger, tiger, let me stick my head in your mouth. Aiiieeeee!!! Do those people come home from the Grand Prix and think they can fling their horses over 5-foot jumps? Do they come home from the rodeo thinking they can yahoo up on a bareback bronc? Did no one notice even in “The Horse Whisperer” that the ability to “reform an untamed rogue” was so rare that Annie had to schlep Pilgrim all the way across the country to find someone who could do it?
Seriously though, while these demos open up our eyes to the possibilities, the clinicians I’ve admired do not say, “Go home and do it just like this, in an hour or less, kiddies.” Quite the contrary.
“So you’ve been to how many clinics with the same guy? When do you think you’re gonna ‘get it’?”
The American culture prizes immediate gratification. We tend to imagine that what a master has taken a lifetime to develop, the student can master in a few hours with a few “sound bites.”
The dressage tradition prizes lifelong learning, but many other equestrian disciplines seem to perceive continuing education as a sign of weakness. The NH tradition also emphasizes lifelong learning. In my experience at least, travels down this path of horsemanship have been cumulative, with each clinic experience building on the other. I’ve heard it compared to peeling an onion, with each new layer revealing new layers beneath. I appreciate the clinic experiences on a different level each time.
“Working horses in the round pen… starting them in the snaffle. Big deal. This is nothing new. I’ve been doing this stuff all my life.”
You have every right to be suspicious of anyone who claims to have invented horsemanship concepts. The best representatives of this method do not claim to have invented it. Rather, they give due credit to Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, and others who have brought vaquero traditions into the new age, with their personal interpretations.
But be careful that you’re not fixating on the superficial. Lots of folks incorporate a round pen or a snaffle bit in their programs. It’s what they do with those tools that makes the difference, not the tools themselves.
“Those round-pen gurus have their place, fine for starting colts. But we don’t use our horses in the round pen, we use them in the real world.”
This type of horsemanship evolved out of the California working ranch horse tradition. In that setting, practicality dictated that horses be made useful for outside ranch work as quickly and effectively as possible. These methods were devised to achieve that result—to get horses “on the payroll” within a few rides. Although colts are started in the round pen, they quickly graduate to an arena and then on to their working lives, often within a few days. Contrast that with traditional English methods, where the horse spends weeks or months on driving lines and in confined spaces before graduating to his “real” job.
“Quick-starting colts in a few hours is too stressful. Properly done, it should take weeks.”
Some horse-training philosophies are largely based on negative consequences—not aggression or beating, mind you, but more about pressures and restraints than about reward and release. In that model, teaching 10 new skills might mean having to suppress 100 equine objections. It’s no wonder we thought that it must be such a bad deal for the horse; better spread it out over a tolerable period of time.
But the model we’ve gained through Tom, Ray, Buck, and their kind is a positive experience in which the horse is offered options and allowed to make decisions, to explore and discover, and find his way to release and comfort.
The horses seem to get more pleasant and cheerful with each new skill they master, so who’s to say it’s too much to do these steps in one day? The horses answer with their demeanors.
“I heard some colts at that clinic bucked when they were saddled. If it bucks, it wasn’t properly prepared.”
You can prepare them for the saddling with good groundwork, rubbing them all over, rubbing them where the cinch goes, getting them used to the feel of the rope around them, and such—but nothing feels like a cinched-up saddle except a cinched-up saddle.
Some horses will be nonchalant about it, some won't. No hard feelings, no recriminations to horse or handler. Horses are just different, and some need to see if they can find relief from the new burden by bucking it off. If the horse is inclined to test his theory, wouldn’t you rather he did it now, rather than later, when you’re riding him?
The horse that’s in trouble is the one that stands stock-still, feet glued to the ground when first getting the feel of his new saddle. That might be the horse ready to come unglued.
“Working colts with a halter is nonsense, a waste of time. We start our horses on driving lines, so their mouths are educated before we get on.”
I, too, was taught that driving on long lines educates the horse’s mouth before we ride him. That argument falls apart upon closer inspection. If you want your horses to become so light that they respond to a whisper of a feel on the reins, what happens when we “educate” their untouched mouths with the weight of 25 feet of driving lines? Even when moderated through the rings of a surcingle, the weight of those lines is too much hanging on their mouths for their first exposures to the bit.
Furthermore, in some styles of ground driving, the outside line passes around the horse’s hindquarter above the hocks. Every time the horse extends a hind leg, he delivers himself a bump on the lines. This is not the path to lightness, and you’d have to fix later the braces introduced at this stage.
“That NH stuff is fine and well for beginners and green colts, but has nothing to offer for advancing in your horsemanship.”
Remember that what you see in the typical Horsemanship I clinic is usually only the foundation level. The California bridle-horse tradition is roughly equivalent to a Third- or Fourth-level dressage horse, with self-carriage, collection, and precision maneuvers on invisible aids. So don’t be surprised if the students at a typical NH clinic are working at a level far below what their mentors are able to demonstrate, and far below where this path of horsemanship is leading them.
“Those round-pen gurus all ride Western. I ride English, so it’s not relevant to me.”
The philosophies are not discipline-specific. They engender fine horse-rider relationships—for whatever purpose you want to apply that relationship.
For example, dressage riders appreciate recalibrating the lightness of their aids from the very beginning, so there’s an effortless communication channel available when it’s time for higher levels of collection, impulsion, and lateral flexibility. Hunt/event riders enjoy the safety of having their horses mentally “with” them, instead of pulling their arms out on cross-country. Jumper riders appreciate the added maneuverability at speed, instead of wasting precious seconds struggling to manage a charging horse.
Whatever the English discipline, “natural horsemanship” can reduce the resistance that makes the training program sometimes a frustrating mix of good days and bad... or the tension and antics that can make the showday experience a little scary.
“What’s all this hooey about clinicians being in it ‘for the good of the horse.’ I’ve done the math; they’re making a killing.”
Imagine you’re at a job interview, and the hiring manager offers this proposition: “We have an opening for someone in outside sales. You’ll be traveling about 80 percent of the time, most of the year— using your personal vehicle. You’ll have to pay for your own travel expenses and those of your support team. You probably won’t see your family for weeks or months at a time.
“You’ll be paid on straight commission only, no base salary. We offer no training, no health insurance, no 401K, no annual raises, no Christmas party, no paid vacation, and no sick days. Don’t even ask about personal days. You’ll be scheduled for a four-day meeting most every week, and you GO. We don’t care how lousy you might feel.
“You’ll be working mostly outdoors, in pouring rain, sleet, mud, whatever. Your every move will be scrutinized by large numbers of people, some of whom will be unappreciative, and others eager to see you fail. It’s a high-risk job, so you’ll be under constant threat of being lambasted, slandered, and sued. Oh, and every day, you’ll be risking your life.”
Sound like a good deal? How many dollars would it take for you to sign on?
By Sylvanna Smith
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 12:15 pm:
That was cute! It was nicely done, and quite accurate.
I agreed completely with everything but the last part.
I've talked to enough clinicians now to safely say that they do NOT work outdoors in godawful weather, nor do they schedule more than they can reasonably handle. They're self-employed, so it's their call how much they want to be away from home. They make good money. Very good money. That and the fame thing are why many of them are willing (nay, anxious)to do what they do. If they weren't, they'd all be Tom Dorrance, who I adore, but who is roughly as visible as zits on a junebug. The horses they work with at clinics are screened. They try hard not to take on outright dangerous horses in public--or at all, if they can avoid it. No, they don't get health benefits or paid vacations, but neither does any other self-employed type . . . like me, for instance.
I think the job description is more appropriate for Small-time Horse Trainer On the Way Up. They're the beleaguered folks who are under-appreciated, under-paid, open to lawsuits, and forced to push for every hour they can just to make ends meet, right? Once you reach Famous Trainer and Clinician status, you don't need to be quite so frantic. Like the movie starlet who will take any role as long as it gets her off from her waitressing job for a few days, upcoming trainers have to deal with the low end of the totem pole until they've earned their chops. They have to deal with people like me. Even I don't want that job!
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 1:32 pm:
Cheryl, as one can tell from my other posts have been a Rashid fan since his first bk! All of his should be read by anyone who has a horse!! Also have been to 2 clinics and he is here in spring will go again. He holds these clinics at a really neat Tenn walker ranch in SE Wash state. Mark is so tuned in to the horse that it takes us "blind" folks a little time to SEE! We call him the "magic man". Have seen him work with a very dangerous horse and at the end of 3 days everyone was still alive and much happier!! and he sells nothing no gimmicks not even his books at these clinics. Cindy
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 1:43 pm:
Joanne ... sounds like you have seen my operation. Ditto from the bottom of the totem pole.
Terri ... Boy does that all sound familiar.
DT
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 1:59 pm:
Dennis, you sound like a real comer. I'm sure you'll be up the pole and out in the daylight soon enough. I watched the whole process through the eyes of a trainer who is now a clinician and doing well. Those 14-hour days and crummy horses all add up to success if you've got the stomach for it.
Cindy, I am sooooo envious! I looked at Mark's schedule, and noted--as usual--that we're not on it. We're never on anyone's tour. Dennis Reis has all of 2007 booked, and he never once steps foot north of the Mason-Dixon line. What a shame! When good clinicians come out this way, everyone is so stunned they don't know what to do. We're stuck with an annual trek to Harrisburg and whatever short demonstrations are arranged during that show. We're Harry Potter under the staircase, just waiting for someone to free our inner wizard! 
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 2:44 pm:
Joanne, if you can round up about 7 people, you can very likely get Mark to put you on his calendar. He even goes overseas for clinics. I was really amazed when I sent a question to his web site and received an answer from his wife. The amount of stuff for sale on his web site is so limited its ludicrous. He's very adamant that "special" equipment is not necessary - And his books are even a good read for people who aren't into horses.
Cindy - you have no idea how envious I am -- not only that you have been to one of his clinics but are even going to ANOTHER one - It must be an awesome experience.
CK
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 3:00 pm:
Hmmm. I am seeing some interesting parallels between well-known clinicians and TV evangalists. As you say Joanne, it seems the grounded, sincere folks spreading the gospel amongst the flock suffer the long hours, little recognition, minimal pay. Still, I consider Mr. Graham's (and a very few others') life an incredible testimony and believe he's done great things....I'd have to say the same for some of the big clinicians. At some point they become a force much bigger than themselves by at least getting everyone's attention by introducing a new religion. Ultimately, though, it's about our own relationship with either the big guy upstairs, or our TB out in the barn--and our choice as to how we develop that relationship. We don't have to buy into all the hype and junk surrounding the message.
In my humble opinion, achieving famous trainer status is a CHOICE once you've become well-known enough to draw crowds. For example, I referred to Sylvia Scott above in the second post to this thread. She was asked to participate in a recent colt-starting challenge (Virginia Equine Expo) but considered starting a colt in three sessions detrimental to the horse. She has quit the "evangelical" life of traveling to clinics and pushing her personal agenda, even though she was doing extremely well and was in high demand. Folks come to her now. She maintains an excellent, informative website and is very accessible with lengthy answers and encouragement. In her own words: "You'll find that those that are the best in this natural horsemanship profession are usually not into show-boating. We just quietly do our jobs and teach others. We have no ego that needs stroking. We live in a pretty "zen-like" zone that needs no horn tooting or public accolades. We work hard to make a living, yes, but...celebrity-ness ain't our goal. All we care about is: helping others help their horses." As is the case with all true believers. But if we didn't have the big name "preachers," we might not ever hear the message. It is a shame that many trainers/clinicians become a victim of their own success by giving into sponsoring, promoting, selling their products, and moving away from what made them stand out because they don't have the time for it anymore. Most well-known clinicians started out underpaid, undiscovered, and unglorified by RFD TV. The really great ones have remained that way by choice, even AFTER they've earned their chops.
Oh, and Tom Dorrance is about 96...which is why he probably doesn't get out that much anymore.
Great discussion.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 3:27 pm:
Very good, Terri. I like your parallels.
Mark Rashid knows how to listen to horses . . . something he has learned by studying horses . . . which is why we have been encouraged to listen to our horses more than listen to trainers. We can do both, but one of the best ways of learning horse language is to have a herd of horses . . . I watch the dynamics and the body language in my herds all the time, and it's more entertaining that a million movies. Their antics "crack me up," and give me insight into their personalities. My big old half-draft that came from Colorado back in October was so wary, reserved, anti-social, stoic when he arrived. As he has been exposed to consistency in our schedule and handling, he has begun to come out of his shell, and I even saw him actually do some play-biting with a buddy horse yesterday, and he attempted a rear with another horse in the pasture, too. It makes my heart glad to see horses secure enough and happy enough to be themselves . . . and gives me greater insight in how to relate to them individually. There are rules in this game of horse/human interaction, and I don't back down from what I expect . . . but I may ask for what I want a bit differently depending on the horse.
As someone else reminded us: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear," and the best teachers are our horses . . . it's just that there are no short-cuts, and sometimes we hope that we can cut corners by getting educated through a clinician . . . Not a bad thing, and as I have said before, John Lyon's teaching helped open the flood-gates for me . . . but I only internalized his teaching over years and by working with horses and succeeding, failing, succeeding . . . in much the same way as horses learn.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 3:42 pm:
Well said Terri and Holly ..
I have no desire to make videos or be the "big guy" at the clinic. I, like Holly spend many hours watching and learning to communicate with my horses.
My goal is to build my training business to a point that I can feed my passion as well as my family. Being with horses, training and being trained, taking in all the horse sounds and smells, and truly building a bond with the horse is an experience like no other. Being good with horses is God's gift to me for which I am truly thankful, and I plan to treasure every moment of it.
DT
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 3:52 pm:
mmmmmmmmm . . . how 'bout if we turn that arm-wrestling into a handshake, Dennis . . . . . . and then sit around the campfire and share stories about our "kids."
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 4:06 pm:
Sounds like a great idea Holly ... and it will save me the embarrassment of getting whipped by a lady.
That wouldn't look good on the ole "horse whisperer" resume.
DT
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Member:
Mcbizz
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 4:11 pm:
The Natural Horseman's Club here (Reno) has Richard Winters do a clinic annually. I have not gone, but have heard he is very good. Didn't see him mentioned on this thread. Any opinions???
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 5:07 pm:
Carolyn,
I watched Richards Winters on RFD-TV and really like him. Good teacher with good information. He has a website. Leilani
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 5:16 pm:
Terri,
Tom Dorrance passed away June 11, 2003. Leilani
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 6:46 pm:
Thanks Leilani...I kind of thought he had, but when I gave his website a quick glance, didn't see it jump out at me. So that would be the REAL reason we don't see him anymore! Thanks Leilani!
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Member:
Mcbizz
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 6:57 pm:
I checked out Richard Winters' website...he certainly has his agenda planned well ahead! I saw that he will be in Reno for the Wild Horse and Burro Expo in August and the Snaffle Bit Futurity in October. Both of these events are great... I would love to do the All Women's Retreat at the CA ranch! Thank you for pointing out the website.
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 8:45 pm:
Hollywood, so right about WATCHING horses it teaches everything right now mine are chasing each other and the barn cats and chickens with the Christmas tree. Must study and learn lessons about what this means ?????????????? FUN !! Cindy
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Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 30, 2006 - 11:27 am:
Too bad about Tom Dorrance!  I didn't know he'd passed away. He was a wonderful man and truly the backbone of all of the training methods that were built on his kind, generous approach.
Cindy, you really made me laugh! I think "what this means" is that they're having way more fun that we are.
I think those of us who are able to have horses at home are truly in a great position to learn from them. Nothing can replace the bits of knowledge that we gain just watching them interact with each other and their environment. Having horses at all is amazing. Living with them is a wonderment!
A little aside here: I worked two of my guys yesterday using the Hempfling method as much as I understand it from the video and book (which ain't much at all). Do any of you have horses that were profesionally JL trained? If so, Hempfling is actually using part of the JL process, just cutting out the whole first five or six weeks of it. If your horse has gone all the way through VSS and the other tail-end JL training procedures, he will follow your finger, work on a loose line, etc, etc. Mine were and they did, which was a tad disappointing, but also enlightening. The experience brought me back full-circle to the opening question in this thread. Are they all alike? Probaby more alike than different.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jan 1, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
Hi all,
Just checked in on HA after a week of family, holidays, no internet access etc.
So, I read this entire thread. As I have stated before, I and some friends worked with a Parelli Level 3 trainer for about a year, and I found it most helpful. Would like to mention that Parelli gives much credit to Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.
I have audited 2 Mark Rashid clinics and have 3 of his books. Really like him very much.
But, I would quickly like to quote from "The complete Training of Horse and Rider" by Alois Podhajsky, former director of the Spanish Riding School of Vienna.
"Xenophon, in 400 BC wrote:" Young horses must be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them." "
He goes on to state that in the middle ages horsemen went away from these principles and employed very rough training methods. His book does talk about both punishments and rewards.
However, in general the methods emphasize sensitivity to the horse's mental and physical readiness. "It cannot be repeated too often that one of the greatest faults a rider can commit is to demand more from his horse than is justified by his physical and mental condition."
This was a most interesting and informative thread!
Lilo
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 4:53 pm:
Dear Terri and All,
Thank you for such great information!
My Best,
Tonya
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 9:31 am:
Fellow Virginians---
Ray Hunt is coming to Campbell Springs Farm in Chesterfield on the last weekend of March. As of now, there are spaces available to participate in the clinic. (Pricey...)
Thought I'd pass it along. If you'd like registration forms, I have them. Just email me at thaynie@ciber.com. Here is a bit of excerpted info:
The cost of the full three days of Mr. Hunt teaching is $500 per team of horse and rider.
A $200 deposit must be sent at registration with the balance at check in. The check should be
made out to Mr. Ray Hunt.
The cost of the arena (it is a nice COVERED arena of 125'x250, so there is no worry of rain a out)
is $65 for the full three days for each horse & rider team. This deposit/registration check should
be made to Shokota' Equestrian.
The stall fee is $35 a night to stay at the farm. This includes a ready made (shavings) stall.
There are 10 very nice farm stalls and 15 portable stalls. Extra shavings will be available at $6
a bag. Campbell Springs has been kind enough to offer pasture board for $25 a night, BUT this
is an open turn out with any and all other horses. I may be able to have a couple horse for use in
the clinic, for a nominal fee, as well as the clinic fees. Early reservations required.
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Member:
mitma
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 12:46 am:
Terri,
This is so ironic that, after talking to your daughter on the phone this evening, I would then log onto HA and stumble onto this extensive (and awesome) discussion on the "people" of Natural Horsemanship fame (and fortune). Anyway, since it was getting late I did not end up calling Deb (she told me a few weeks ago that she was booked up for the next few months), rather I've been ruminating over my training dilemmas (since I now have too many horses, especially, untrained ones!) to responsibly deal with on my own... Should I ship them all out to a professional, should I try to keep at this myself, so many questions... I do still maintain that, so far, getting back into horses has really been one of the most healthy midlife crisis that one could experience (except for my Christmas Eve visit to the emergency room of Riverside Walter Reed after my mustang mare had "escaped" from her pen earlier... yes, I now ALWAYS wear gloves when working with my horse!!!) Anyway, this Ray Hunt clinic sounds interesting to me... what will be emphasized??? Riding, groundwork, even earlier basics, all of these things??? Your description sounded like it might focus on riding only... and if so, it's probably not for me at this point in time. I mean, after all, I have to actually get up on a horse to see what I'v forgotten from 20 years ago!!! Regarding my rising 3 yo mustang mare, I'm sure your daughter has mentioned, so far, I can place a halter on her (though sometimes not so easily), lead her (sometimes she leads me), back her a few steps, pick up her front feet (on most days) and I'm just starting towards her back ones... and all of this since last October when I adopted her when no one could touch her. I certainly don't want to throw large sums of money away, but all those books and DVDs I purchased at the VA Equine Extravaganza are still sitting on my dining room table... I've been trying to get through the John Lyons massive 2 volume set, but I find it written in a way that is not so direct or to the point... I feel like it starts out assumming I know nothing of horses which is certainly not the case... Anyway, if you think this clinic might offer me something, and if you can, please email me a registration form (memitchell38@hotmail.com) or point me in the direction of further information... Thanks!
Martha
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 6:54 am:
At least for me personally, I can read 'till I'm blue in the face and watch training videos, but practical application with the assistance of a professional is best. the books and videos may be less expensive but in the long run the investment in a clinic is a better value and real hands on learning. I think doing at least one clinic with someone would be ideal. Like someone said, there are many nuances of NH that one misses in just reading and not actually working with someone.
Just my 2 cents.
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Member:
kstud
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
Hi, Great thread. Joanne would you mind posting me that article too about detecting resistant horses. My email is kstud@eircom.net. Thanks.
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Member:
jmarie
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 6:47 pm:
Catherine, your wish is my command. It's on its way to you.
Now, don't you wish it was that easy to get your horse to obey?
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 9:04 pm:
Lilo - I love that statement
Xenophon, in 400 BC wrote:" Young horses must be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them." "
WOW that is what I am trying to do with my horse. I love him dearly, I play with him - I school him and ride him but my favorite time is when I am in his paddock area cleaning up - He Always comes up to me for a snuggle. 1200 pounds of Big Red Snuggle and I love the heck out of it. I do like to think he does what he does because he loves me too. If that ain't natural horsemanship. mutual respect and an over abundance of Love. I have been fortunate to work with a man here in NM from the Lamy area (yes all you NM ites there) he does Parelli and John Lyons and a whole swage of others rolled in a ball and with a great final product. He has taught me so much as to how to speak horse, and get respect. once I started getting that it all only gets better! I read voraciously. I would love to go to a clinic some time, I agree that would also be wonderful.
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 9:05 pm:
Lilo - I love that statement
Xenophon, in 400 BC wrote:" Young horses must be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them." "
WOW that is what I am trying to do with my horse. I love him dearly, I play with him - I school him and ride him but my favorite time is when I am in his paddock area cleaning up - He Always comes up to me for a snuggle. 1200 pounds of Big Red Snuggle and I love the heck out of it. I do like to think he does what he does because he loves me too. If that ain't natural horsemanship. mutual respect and an over abundance of Love. I have been fortunate to work with a man here in NM from the Lamy area (yes all you NM ites there) he does Parelli and John Lyons and a whole swage of others rolled in a ball and with a great final product. He has taught me so much as to how to speak horse, and get respect. once I started getting that it all only gets better! I read voraciously. I would love to go to a clinic some time, I agree that would also be wonderful. I am all still quite new at this ( almost 3 years as horse person) so Greene horns like me just love to learn.
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 9:06 pm:
Sorry Guys Happy trigger finger - hit enter before I was done above....
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Member:
skye
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 8:45 am:
What great information in this thread! I finally decided to have a NH trainer work with my 4-year-old Trakehner cross. He is very happy, learning well, and enjoying his training very much. To me, the trainer is superb.
Ray Hunt is coming to her farm in Maine in early April, and I will certainly be attending.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 10:50 am:
Hi Muffi,
Yes - that is my favorite statement, also. I am glad you have a good trainer to work with. Really - videos are great, and some of the 1-day clinics can give you new ideas - but, what really worked best for me and my friends is that over a period of about 2 years we had a group get together with a Parelli trainer and work with our horses (got together about once every month or 6 weeks). The group setting made it more fun, and one can learn also from seeing the other horses and riders.
Lilo
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Member:
kstud
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 6:25 pm:
Wow Joanne, that was fast. Thank you very much for the mail and yes I do wish it was as easy to get horses, husbands and kids to obey. I am hooke d and will get your book now too, love the style of writing.
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Member:
jmarie
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 8:47 am:
Thanks for the kind words, Catherine. Glad you liked the article.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 3:18 am:
is rope halter really necessary for ground training ?
Parrelli changed his Whip/Wand - . It has a long rope - do not understand how to use it . Can you help ? I did Tellington Jones, but now I am trying to decide which NT I should try next (read above articles) .
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 9:06 am:
I think what you should try next is what works with your horse. If you are having specific problems, start a new discussion and you'll get lots of help.
IMHO, the rope halter can really sore a horse if you are hauling on it lots. I think if you are depending on the certain type of halter and "magic stick" you are missing the points of NT.
Sorry if I sound so blunt, no caffiene yet, dealing with 2 horses with health problems the last few days...sigh.
Hope you start a new discussion, love to hear about LTJ, and what worked for you.
Angie
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 10:10 am:
True Unity : Willing Communication Between Horse and Human by Tom Dorrance, Milly H. Porter
Natural Horsemanship Explained: From Heart to Hands by Robert M. Miller, Patrick Handley
These books give context for critical thinking regarding an individual practitioner's merits.
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 11:08 am:
Hello All,
This is an interesting conversation. My 2 cents worth--one of the best clinicians that I have had the pleasure of watching and talking to is Julie Goodnight. I first saw her at the Illinois Horse Fair and then again at the Women and Horse's Expo in Sedalia, MO. She has a show on RFD TV also. She is an excellent teacher, very approachable and has a wonderful way of explaining concepts. Look at her website. She lives in Colorado but travels all over the US.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 11:28 am:
Hello,
I have done a lot of NH over the years, and did most of it without using their fancy equipment. I never used a rope halter. The purpose is to give the horse pressure on the head so you can ask gently but increase pressure if the horse does not respond. I took a light chain and worked it under the nylon halter, clipped it to the halter, then clipped it to my lunge line. It was always loose unless he did not listen, then a light tap and if no response, a tug.
My point is if you understand the concepts then you can adapt your own equipment to meet the need. I never had a "carrot stick", a lunge whip worked just fine, etc, etc. My horse still learned all the NH concepts and we continue to build on them six years later.
I spent money on clinics, a book, and one video series. Otherwise, everything I learned came from RFD-TV (I record on my DVR). Learn from a variety of clinicians, then take parts of each and adapt to your horse and your training style.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 11:53 am:
Fame, where are you located? Does PT stand for Portugal?
If not, our resident HA trainer, Denny Taylor is doing a clinic at Sara Wolf's farm in Utah in August. There is a post about it on here somewhere but heck if I can find it!
Nice chance to meet some other HA members and compare methods.
Erika
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 12:54 pm:
Fame, there is loads of info available in many forms and formats these days. Who should follow? Can't help there, it will depend on what you want and how well you understand what they are saying mostly. ;] If you cannot 'apply' what they are talking about then it won't help much.
There is also another HA member that has a program, but it's not "training" really. https://www.thenaturalhorse.org/
As to use of a rope halter, it's not necessary but it will just make things a bit easier on you and the horse. Sorry I would never use a chain on a horse's face/head. A) There should not be a reason too use such force and B) they hurt far more than any amount of pressure you can exert on a rope halter!
As in anything, it's the hands connected on the thing that makes it hurt of not.
And yes most of these guys all say the same things. I like the way Parelli has formatted his program, it's very easy to follow. But I like what John Lyons has to say a whole lot more. Course I am now biased there. ;)
I use and have used Chuck's "FT" (see above) and LOVE it, swear by it, and stand behind it 100%!! And no it is not like everyone else's stuff. I have used Parelli in the past, but my TB refused to play those games. Smart boy that he is. haha
So watch DVDs, read, go to seminars or clinics. Figure out what works best for you. get help when and where you need it. And have fun.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 8:34 pm:
Hi Fame,
Please tell us a little more about yourself on your page. I promise we will not show up on your doorstep, not unless you invite us! A lot of us have access to RFDTv and have watched a lot of the natural horsemanship trainers there. Can you tell us about the horse you are working with and what you want to accomplish? How old is your horse and what is the problem that you are having? If there is a problem. I love the rope halters and rarely use the others anymore. I also have the Blocker Tie Rings all over my barn and trailer. If you have access to a round pen you can start work at liberty before you use a halter. I don't put a lot of pressure on a rope halter. You can teach a horse to lead by applying a light pressure to the side, making the horse feel off balance which you release as soon as he steps toward you.
Cynthia
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 11:00 am:
Thank you for your reactions , I feel I have new friends to add to my two four legs ones . !!
Before I start new Discussion, let me answer to you . Yes I live in Portugal (Europe) I have many books a some DVD . Started horses not so young - but many years ago . And If any of you wants to come for PROPER coffee - you are welcome. Address details on request .
.. It would be a pleasure to have you .
Susie, I have and read T. Dorrance . Miller did he write a book "Imprinting foals " ? I succesfuly did two foals his way .
Now - I am BAD "speller" . .English is not my home language. Please be patient with me and have good laughs about it .
Do you think "Change of behaviour " is OK .?
Linda, do you ut the chain on the poll ? ( I used TT touch method).
My name is Anna-Marie, FAME is business name with me and my husbands names joined . Farrell + Anna-Marie Elion .
I will now continue on the "New Discussion".
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 11:57 am:
Anna-Marie,
No, I do not put the chain over the poll. It's hard to explain without a visual, but it goes under the halter from ring to ring, then snaps to the ring on the halter. As Terrie says, it must be used with very light hands so that is why I used the word "tug" to imply a light pull on lunge rope. The fact it is clipped to the ring keeps it from pulling tight. All it really does is give a little feeling to that spot which would not be there with a nylon halter. They are quite soft since they are flat. I guess some here would call it "jurry-rigging" which is making something to fit your needs without buying a new thing. If that idea does not work for you, then by all means use the rope halter.
If I am ever in Portugal, I may take you up on that cup of coffee. PROPER coffee, lol. Welcome to HA. You will find a lot of good friends here.
Linda
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 12:12 pm:
Linda, I think I understand - I use Lounging cavesson . I do not like to lounge from the bit - I just don't do it . Portugal is beautiful . AM.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 10:56 am:
I forgot the name of "New Discussion" which I've started after July 3rd. Feel like an idiot .
Troubi has improved , is not perfect . Only 3 gates he s difficult - sometimes less than other times . Those "difficult" gates are on the edges of a forrest and trees everywhere and maneuver is not easy . He now approaches the gate OK, but than he becomes nervous ( not always ) and wants to take off. Which he sometimes succeds . I am now more firm at this stage and he is getting better . I think it is lack of respect . Today we went 4 times through - calmly . We shall se when we have to go to the stables.
Horse friend of mind is coming on Saturday to show me Parelli ( years ago Troubi and I did it, but now Troubi is not responding ).My friend warned me - he'll be tough with him I don't know if chasing horse in a gallop in a round circa is a good idea , if it is necessary to get "respect"this way .
I did ask this about 10 days ago - but didn't get any answer .
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 12:53 pm:
Fame, I found a short, good section on understanding horses' behavior in, "Animals Make Us Human" by Temple Grandin. Some if it is rather basic, but some is fresh too. YouTube has a short of her too. IMHO, and as has been said well here already, using NH techniques without understanding behavioral learning processes can miss the point of it all, and can actually cause problems. We humans tend to see our own motivations in the horses, and tend to interperet the horse's anxiety as willful or agressive. I think that in general, provoking more anxiety in an anxious horse can end up injuring the horse mentally, physically, or both.
Something that has helped me is hanging a video recorder on the fence and then watching my interactions with the horse later. I can catch myself reenforcing behaviors I don't want, or see how the horse is reenforcing my own problem behaviors.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 4:19 pm:
Fame,
Use the search feature on this site to find your posts. Type in your name "Fame."
I also like Temple Grandin, and agree with Susie's comments. Chasing a horse in a circle will no teach the horse to go through a gate. In fact, lead to the gate, stop before he shows any sign of getting worried, do something else, act like getting through the gate is the last thing you want to do.
If you think there will be a problem, the horse will prove you right.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 15, 2009 - 7:34 pm:
Hi again Fame,
One other thing that helps me is to remember that for humans, going through a gate is one manuver, but the horse needs it broken down to one move at a time. For example stop, stand, step up, stand, sidestep, stand, side step, stand, side-step, stand, turn-step, stand, side-step, stand, side-step, stand, then stand and rest. Then walk away. Using this strategy to go part way through and then back out without going through, or going through backwards can help because it helps the horse to pay attention to me and not anticipate.
I reenforce each good step with a very brief stroke, saying "good," or if it's a hard step for the horse, an immediate pellet or apple slice when he gets it right. Problem steps show where things fall apart for the horse, and are a chance to improve communication. I want the horse in the mindset that gates are a "happy place" where things get calm, he can succeed, and some pleasant things can happen.
For quite a few years, I needed to saddle a horse, go out through a network of gates, and bring the horses in from several fields. I learned that it's easy to teach a horse that the gate is a "bad and scary" place. Once that's done, going through gates can become a long, remedial program. Once I understood that I learned to teach the horse that going through a gate was a very pleasant part of the morning routine!
Good luck to you!
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 5:19 pm:
Susi and Angie, thank you for reply and advise - I appreciate it !!
My friend came today and he was very good with both horses . Realy knows how to move and understands horses mind . His body language was excellent . He started without the halter , and than rope halter (Parelli style) with a rope .
Now it is up to me - I have lots to learn . And see videos . Unfortunately, I do not have a video camera .
Evening, taking Troubi from the pasture, he was standing waiting at the gate !! I had to do few circles before going through, little nervous, but all went in slow motion .
Thank you girls . Nice to share and talk .
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