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  Discussion on Timing of Leg Aids - Poll
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Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 10:38 am:

First off, I am not sure this goes here. It is not beginning riding, or western, or hunter jumper, it is what I would consider dressage or maybe all around riding. Hope this is OK to post here.

When asking the horse to 1) take bigger steps 2) bend 3) round – do you give leg when the leg you want to effect is a) leaving the ground b) on the ground c) other. I have been told opposite things by many trainers. I have been told that you can’t effect a leg unless it is leaving the ground or in the air, and I have been told that to ask the horse to put more weight on and to push off from a leg, you have to leg while that leg is on the ground. They both make sense. Method a) seems to apply more to 1 and 2, and b) more to the 3rd. Anyone want to comment or tell me what you do (or at least what you think you are supposed to do)?
Thanks,
Alicia
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 10:50 pm:

Which cues work on your horse to get the response you are asking for?
If none of them work well, then I would pick which ones I want to use and train my horse to respond to those cues.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 7:52 am:

Holly Wood,
Well, I want to get to the point where I don't have to aid so clumsily. I can put my leg on for several steps and get a response, but not a crisp response and not as much as I want. The ultimate goal for my mare is to get her to respond to my aids for a larger slower gait with as much impulsion as she can give.
I also have a baby coming (he is in training with my trainer now) and I want to do the right thing from the start with him.
Alicia
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 8:29 am:

This is more Holly's area than mine, I am not a "finely tuned" rider,(not a dressage rider in the sense you think of dressage but I do like a light horse) but I would suggest some blunt, mild spurs. I say that based your comment that you don't want to aid so clumsily. Ask with you leg first, followed by spur, touch, get response, then reverse your aids. Meaning now the spur is off, leg is in the neutral position and stays there until the horse gets sluggish again. Then repeat, leg, spur IF NEEDED, neutral.

If you only get a few steps, reward that by taking all the pressure off your horse. Then do it all over again, asking for more steps this time. Your horse has to be in good condition to do that, and you have to build her up slowly.

I would also do a lot of lateral flexing like Clinton Anderson does to make her all around lighter. Walk in a small circle, asking her to give her head around to touch your toe or the girth. Pull, release, keep walking in the circle. If she isn't very quick on that, again, touch her side with the spur to wake her up. Do circles each way, then go out and try to get the larger slower gait you are trying for. Go back to circles again, you can also do them at the trot.

It's lots of work this way and it will help with what you are trying to accomplish I think. It worked for my gelding for getting him to trot nice and slow, head low and soft through out his body. I am just starting to work on the "big trot" and transitions between the slower and bigger, faster and bolder but it's coming along nicely.

I know HA English/Dressage experts will be able to help you with their take on it too.

Good luck!
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 9:09 am:

Angie,
Thanks, but that is not what I was looking for. She doesn't need reminding what the leg is for, I just need to time my aids better.
Also, she is plenty flexible laterally, that isn't the issue either.
Thanks for responding, though!
Alicia
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 11:20 am:

Alicia, I think I see better what you are asking. I still think, though, that it is just a practice/training issue, and I think you have to find what works best on your horse and then just refine your cues, praising whenever you get a step toward what you want. Are you trying to think from a dressage judge's point of view as to what the judge wants to see?
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 11:23 am:

Alicia, To get a horse 'sharper' transitions work wonders. I have a video of W Zettle where he is teaching this very thing. He has the rider do trot walk transitions. The horse is asked to trot, just one or two steps then walk, one or two steps,etc. After about 6 of these even on the video you can see the horse has improved.
this is what I do to try to improve my timing of aids. First I take a deep breath, exhale slowly, mentally run through what aids I want to use and how, then (this is hard to put into words) without actually doing it I run through the aids, micro moves if you will.
I will quote W. Zettle concerning the timing of the leg aids.
The leg influences the hind leg of the horse on the same side as the rider's leg.
The driving aid position of the rider's leg is at the girth...... the driving push is to be given when the horse's hind hoof on the same side is leaving the ground.
The holding (containing)leg aid position is slightly behind the girth. The purpose of this type of leg aid is to prevent the horse from drifting off a desired path or a straight line, esp with the hindquarters.
The sideways driving aids are also given with the rider's leg in a position behind the girth. However, these aids are always given withone leg at a time, the leg needed to push the horse in one sideways direction. The other leg of the rider stays at the girth and regulates the forward movement of the horse.
Occasionally in lateral work, both legs aids need to be applied simultaneously because th horse has lost impulsion.
This may be more info than you wanted but I hope it answers your question.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 11:37 am:

Holly Wood,
I agree it is a training issue, but I wanted to know what folks thought and practiced in regards to the timing of the aids. I ride hunt seat by the way, not dressage, but I want to ride like a pro, not like most of the hunter show folks I see.
Lori,
That is what I wanted. This person is saying you give the leg aid for impulsion, straightness, and lateral movements when the leg is in flight.
Is what W.Zettle says what you do? Also, it doesn't say anything about extending or bending.
Thanks,
Alicia
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 1:59 pm:

O.K., it was waaay over my head like I thought! Now I just have to try and figure out what the heck Lori and you are talking about and see what I can learn from it!
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 2:13 pm:

Crikey I have enough trouble working out which leg is on the ground let alone whether it's coming down on the ground or just leaving the ground... I think you'd have to have the reaction timing of an 18 year old to get it exactly right, Alicia.

I think that the W Zettle trick is probably the one you want, I know that works for me, I just didn't know it had such a splendid pedigree.

I always find a bit of canter work spruces up the response to leg aids in trot too. I think too many lessons/schooling sessions are walk warmup, masses of boring trot, a smidgeon of canter work, walk warm down. Horses aren't thick, they get cranky about the boring hard work trot bit. Give em a good canter as soon as they are warm (if they like cantering) and your trot work will be much easier and more responsive.

Just my very untutored ideas.

Best wishes

Imogen
Member:
Trouble

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 2:21 pm:

I am fairly new to dressage (been taking lessons for about 6 mos.). The way Lori explains is exactly the way my instructor explains to me (easier said "or written" than done!!!)
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 2:52 pm:

There's a decent DVD out by Mark Rashid called Understanding Footfall and Influencing Movement that I've watched multiple times to try and understand this too. He takes you through how to feel with your body what the feet are doing, and if I understand correctly says to queue right when the foot is leaving the ground, with the goal being that your horse is in the position to respond in one step, not multiple.

Of course I haven't been able to do this yet as I'm still focusing on really feeling the feet at different gaits (walk for now) before trying. I'm not very coordinated!
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 4:09 pm:

I, too, always thought that feeling the horse's footfall was an advanced skill. Not so, according to Wendy Murdoch. She feels it is the basis of riding, and therefore belongs in the beginner's lessons. She makes it really simple to understand in her book (and DVD of the same name), Simplify Your Riding. She makes it even easier to understand in a lesson with her, but I know that's not possible for everyone. I'm definitely lucky on that one.

Anyway, for those who think it's advanced stuff, know that the horse's anatomy is similar to ours in many ways. Think of the horse's hind legs akin to our two legs. Did you know that their stride on hind legs (or just front legs) is very similar in length to a human's stride length? (Of course, the horse size should be appropriate for the rider.) To understand something about the horse, try it on yourself first to really "get it." A lot of times, getting on your hands and knees is the best way to understand why we ask things of a horse, like rounding his back. Try it. Feel the difference of bringing your knee forward when your back is dipped vs. rounded.

So when the horse puts weight on one of his hind legs (support stage), the rider feels her hip bone or seat bone on that side go up. As the horse's hind leg goes forward (flight stage), your hip/seat bone dips. That's the basic thing to know. Get that part down, and you're halfway there.

For the other two stages of movement:
Just before the horse stands on his leg (i.e., support stage), the horse puts his foot down (landing stage). So just before you feel your hipbone at it's highest point, you have the landing of the foot.
Just before the lowest dip of your hip, the breakover occurs. If it's easier for you to think of the process in a different way, use this sequence (starting at hip at it's highest point):
Support, breakover, flight, landing.

Mostly, just start identifying the support and flight stages. Say "now" whenever you feel one of these moves so as to engage your right brain with left brain.

Once these concepts are understood, then you are ready to apply them to your aids. To really understand them, have someone poke or prod you as you take a step to see how you would respond at different timing of the cues. The main thing to understand here is that you cannot effect the movement of a foot if the foot is bearing weight. So if you want to step out wider to the right side, for example, your friend would have to give you a little push as your foot is moving through the air. Once your right foot is on the ground, a push would just get you off balance.

The above explanations apply to impulsion. Regarding the bending of the horse, a horse can move his ribcage from side to side, up and down and diagonally. A correctly moving horse will swing his ribcage up so that the hind leg on that side can step underneath. But do the legs need to be moving to bend a ribcage? Poke your friend in the ribs and watch her bend, collapsing on the side where she was poked and expanding the opposite side. What is important is to note and cue the position of the horse's ribcage so that his back is lifted, and withers remain perpendicular to the ground, allowing the horse to track straight and scribe the desired circle.

Sorry for being so wordy, but I am so excited that I just learned this (with Wendy's help) because I thought it would be years before I'd get it. But as a beginning rider, I'm set to confidently learn to ride my horse.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 5:20 pm:

Very micely done, Dove2 . . . easy to picture when applied to our own bodies.
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 5:24 pm:

... or have someone on the ground call the 'now, now, now' for the right time for the chosen leg at the different gaits.

For the rest- this is what I have read or been told by coaches (and please remember that I remain HOPELESS at this!)...

At canter the timing has a nice visual cue - when the horse's mane flips up is when you apply the aid.

At trot, use your peripheral vision on the horse's shoulder. If you want to time right hind, then watch left front - when the part of the shoulder just in front of the saddle bulges (meaning leg is the furthest back), that is the time to cue.

At the walk - hmmm. I remember Sally Swift saying to teach yourself to count the foot falls and figure out which is which and then to cue on the count for the foot BEFORE the one you want to influence (waaaay to complicated to me!!!) I just go for the barrel swing and influence just before the barrel starts to swing away from my inside leg. I have no idea if this is correct, though...
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Friday, Jan 12, 2007 - 10:36 pm:

Alicia, yes, I do the Zettle way.

As far as knowing when the feet are on the ground I agree this is important enough that it should be taught to beginners.
This is how I learned: I had learned to follow the horse movement which involves a bit of forward and back with our hips, try instead to 'follow' the sideways motion, this is the same idea that Dove is saying.
If you can, try riding bareback, it is much easier to learn the feel when you are bareback.

Do you mean when and how to apply leg aids for bending and extending?
Member:
Maximum

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:17 am:

Have to jump in here. Learning where your horses feet are and which are moving when is the basics that cues are given on.
Try just sitting on your horse, relaxed, no stirrups,preferably with someone leading them and your eyes closed. Practice deep breathing and then have the horse walk. LET your hips go with the movement of the horse. Your upper body stays erect yet relaxed, your lower body conforms with the horses body and movement.
Then start with a hoof, doesn't matter what as long as you picture it in your head and count aloud, one two three four, with the footfalls of the horse. NOT to your beat, but to the horses. Feel the up, down, side to side movements of the horses barrel and you will feel yourself combining the foot falls with the motion.
When ready, take the reins up and staying relaxed, leader can unhook lead yet stay close if you want. Try stiffening your hips and instead of flowing with the horses movement, fight against it, don't tell your walker when you are doing this, yet ask them to observe the horse and tell you when a change is happening, you should also feel a change, a hesitation a stiffening, a shortening of step etc. The relax again and let the horse flow. Finally, increase slightly the action of your seat muscles and hips as though you had skis under each hip bone and were trying to push them through the snow as though cross country skiing. DON"T use leg yet, just your seat.
Does your horse react be increasing speed? lengthening stride? He should.

I don't want to be too wordy. But one more visual. Picture yourself as a child pretending to ride a horse cantering/loping across the lawn. You are in one lead, then switch. When did you cue yourself???? Did your legs change first? Your thoughts? Your Hips? Your shoulder?
Your thoughts must come first and be very clear. What is in your head reflects in your horse, so if your thoughts are unclear ( as to cueing) then the horse can not react clearly either.
Member:
Maximum

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:25 am:

To address the leg. While doing the erect but relaxed, disconnect the hips and let the legs hang exercise above. You will find that your legs swing in under the horse with its barrel.
So keeping in mind, we always want to be "with" our horse and not work against them, if you were to cue for more should you cue when your leg is
1. swinging under with the barrel
2. swinging out from under the barrel
3. when it is out and away from the barrel.

Remembering that being smooth, in tune with the horse, riding with seemingly no cues, is a goal, which makes sense.

For those you just insist on an answer - which I would NOT give to you if you were my student. The answer is 1. My students have to ride until they can feel the rightness of it. Which is why the teaching part of my lessons is short and the working part so long.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 12:15 am:

Wow, lots of stuff since I last looked. I will ingest this over the next few days and get back to you all. By the way, I found a web site that explains very well how this all works, and this is how one of my trainers has explained it. It is Thomas Ritter. The web site is https://www.classicaldressage.com/articles/timing4.html.
This is something as a hunter rider I was never exposed to. I now know how the pros look as though they are doing nothing and are so effective. That is what I am working toward. I hope this translates to better jumping rounds eventually. For now, I am just trying to get it all straight and to make it second nature.
Alicia
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 1:02 pm:

I understand the stuff about how to tell what leg is on the ground but not the bit about giving an aid when the leg is in the air for better effect.

Surely this is against common sense in that the horse must have time to feel your aid and respond to it - this does not happen instantaneously however sharp your horse.

Therefore partly for simplicity and partly for reaction time I've been taught to give the cue with the leg on the ground about to spring off.

Is this wrong Cheryl A and Debra? If so how do you work out how long to wait - is it like, leg on the ground, count a beat, give the aid, or what? Sounds hopelessly complicated but trying to learn here...

Imogen
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 2:08 pm:

Imogen, I think we are in complete agreement.

Here is what I have read/been told: The goal is to influence the NEXT step, not the one that is happening 'now'.

Why not try to influence the 'now' step? Because the horse can't adjust very well if the foot is already on the ground. (e.g., can't sit down more, can't place foot in a different spot)

So the time to influence the horse is - as you say - just as they are lifting the previous foot off the ground (best - because you can say 'push off more and by the way it is going to be placed over there') or when it is in the air (e.g., 'yeah it is maybe hard but put it over there and really sit down when you do put it down).

Which foot do you influence? Hmmm. Some say ride every step (exhausting!). Some say ride to influence. (I can also hear my coach yelling "STOP analyzing and just RIDE the damned movement!")

So in the end, I agree this sounds horribly complicated - and think Debra has a point: it has to be a feel thing.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 2:30 pm:

Imogen,
Yes, when the foot is leaving the ground. Sorry I didn't make that clear. The aid goes into effect when the leg is swinging forward. I taught myself by looking down to see when the aid should be applied.
Lately folks have told me the opposite to what I thought was true, which is why I asked the original question.
What I currently do at the walk (for example) is squeeze with the leg on the side of the horse where they are picking up the hind. For example, to bend my horse to the left at a walk to to balance her by bringing her hind underneath to support her weight, I would give a gentle squeeze when her left hind was leaving the ground. That should, in theory, make her contract her stomach muscles a bit, and swing the leg more forward and more toward her center. To tell her which direction I want her to go, I swivel my body, so I would swivel my body to the left. To tell her which tempo to move at, I use my body by either "pushing" with my seat (by tilting my pelvis back) to ask for more or hold with my seat to ask for less. I also use leg and seat for impulsion by doing the same as above with my seat and squeezing both legs momentarily. When you do this, you have to make sure the horse doesn't quicken, which is always hard for me. I do this by NOT allowing my body to quicken. Very hard to go against her motion, but it works to get more impulsion as opposed to more pace.
To ask her to move laterally, let's say to the right, away from my left leg, I would keep my shoulder straight ahead, as I don't want her to move her shoulders, but to maintain her straightness. I would just open my outside aids (hand and leg, really more allowing with the leg), and ask longer with the leg I want her to move away from, again in time with, when the leg starts to come forward. My mare likes to lead with her shoulder, so I have to also make sure I keep enough contact on the outside (in this case the right) rein and kind of pulse it when she steps so she doesn't pop the shoulder. Hard to describe.
Sh**, I hope I haven't confused you more! One more thing I have to add. Rein contact is needed so the horse can be through. Just make sure you keep a steady contact and allow the horse to come up to the bit, don't take the reins back to establish the through.
Alicia
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 4:07 pm:

Imogen, I agree, there is no point trying to influence a foot that is already on its down swing, I was taught to ask just} before the foot I want to influence moved.
I think Holly also had a good point when she said follow one idea, be consistent and both you and your horse will learn.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 10:26 pm:

Good explanation Alicia. I could feel that, but not quite put it into words.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:58 pm:

So does no one aid when the leg is on the ground? I have been told that that makes them push more. I don't really believe that, but I wanted to be sure before I decide to keep doing it the way I have been.
Alicia
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 10:03 pm:

From my vantage point, I think that if we are trying to perfect our cues so that they are lighter than a feather touch . . . and our horse gives us what we are requesting whenever we ask, then it only matters to the horse and rider when or how we give the cues. The idea that we can throw a horse off balance is not a false idea if we are picturing giving the horse a shove from the ground when his leg is lifted, or if we picture whacking the horse with our leg when his leg is suspended, but the point is that we don't want to shove our horses with our legs or yank on them with our hands or twist into contortions with our seat. We want to "think" the cue and have the horse respond . . . so even though there are more popular or more universal ways of cueing, it still comes down to what language the rider teaches HER horse. That's why, whenever we purchase a horse, we have to listen to it and learn where that horse's buttons are. The rider who trained the horse or the previous owner may have had longer legs or stronger hands or cued for canter by lifting the outside rein instead of the inside . . . and we end up spending lots of time either training ourselves to the new horse's cues or training the horse to OUR preferred method. It all comes down to what gives you the best response from your horse and how well you and your horse practice the technique.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 9:52 am:

I agree with Holly.

Specific to your question, I would not intentionally try to cue a leg that is bearing weight, it has to complete its 'cycle' if you will, before it can respond to the cue.
That is not to say that my timing can be off and I do, which is probably why sometimes it takes a stride or two to get the correct response.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 6:46 pm:

Holly,
I trained her, and I am going to train my new horse as well. Problem is, I am a much better rider now than I was when I started this mare. So, we are relearning. I still have a lot to learn too, so I am trying to learn myself. My one trainer says it is IMPOSSIBLE for a horse to respond while their leg is on the ground. My other trainer says if you put leg on while the leg is on the ground, they push off more.
That is my dilemma. I really respect both of these trainers, and they are both great riders and have done well for themselves and their students. One is a hunter trainer and the other is classical dressage.
I guess I should have stated it this way from the start.
Alicia
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 8:18 pm:

Hmmm, I've been thinking about this, Alicia.

Picture the horse's ribs as your own, the cue comes in (touch with the leg), wouldn't the tendency be to pull yourself in on that side (pick up the hind foot and place it further ahead) rather than to stretch out (leave hind foot on the ground longer and push off)?

I have always just naturally cued with the same side hind foot in the air, or just about to take off--we're talking at the walk here, for a longer stride. But only because it just "seems" to be the right timing for me to do it with less effort. It also gets the job done with my horses.

Also, if you think in terms of what your leg is telling the horse, for instance in canter depart, your outside leg on the horse will weight his inside leg (leading leg at the canter), so touching the same side as the horse's rear leg will only push the horse quicker to the opposite leg, rather than prolong the push time on the ground.

Does that make any sense to you all? But I don't think you have to do it any particular way, as long as your horse gets what you're asking for.

You're probably trying it all different ways, aren't you?--It'll come to the point where you find what feels natural and works. It is nice when you think these things through and can then focus on what works.

What have you found does the best with your horse?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 8:42 pm:

Exactly, Erika. That's the point I'm trying to make. What works best with the horse?

Alicia,
Do you work with both of these trainers? Are you afraid of offending one if you decide to ride like the other one? Have you ridden horses trained by both of these trainers?

There is no RIGHT way. It's what works best for you and your horse that is the right way, and usually, we find a right way because of practicing the cue and rewarding the response ad infinitim . . . so go ahead and choose what you want to do. Obviously, each of these two trainers has found what works for him/her . . . and we often get into a frame of mind that says, "Well, if this way works best for me, then it must be the best way for everyone." Not so . . . that's why there are so many different kinds of trainers and differently trained horses.
Please forgive me if I'm missing what you are saying. I think I hear you saying, "Help. Someone tell me the right way." If that is what you are saying, then my view is that there is NO "right" way . . . there is whatever way works for you so that you and your horse can be your best as a team. Pick a way. Pick a way that is comfortable for you and your horse . . . and train that way, ride that way and practice that way . . . it may take a short time to perfect . . . or it may take a long time . . . it depends on how often you get to train/reinforce, it depends on your horse's learning curve and on how consistent you are in your cues and rewards.

Be specific. Your horse will be as specific as you are . . . but if you are wavering between the methods of two different trainers, your horse will be confused, too. Heck . . . you can make up your OWN cue . . . that is completely different from either one of the trainers'.
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