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  Discussion on Trainer kicks my horse in the stomach - ground work
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Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:06 pm:

Be honest here. Am I too sensitive about this? I gave me 3 year old to a trainer for 90 days. I know I will never find anyone who treats my baby like I do but I specifically told this trainer the ONLY thing I ask is DONT KICK MY HORSE IN THE STOMACH WHEN YOU'RE MAD AT HIM. I just hate that. I think kicking a horse in that manner is a result of a few things:
You've run out of patient
You're simply in a bad mood
You're acting in anger
You dont know what else to do

I was at the barn caring for a horse I'm leasing and the trainers assistant kick my guy right in front of me! I made a remark about how she's going to have to kick like a rockette to get him good (he's 17.2) and she commented that the trainer just about fell over trying to kick him the other day. (I made the rockette comment 'cuz I just didnt know what else to say that wasn't going to be really nasty. but I was really hurt to see that and seething mad)

I was floored that this seems to be a frequent occurance.

I aim for mutual respect. I am all for a load verbal warning and if he doesn't listen I will haul off and hit him as hard as I possibly can - but in the shoulder, on the butt, etc. I just dont like the kicking.

PS - My horse was not acting that bad. Just being antsy while she tried bridling him.

Should I get over it?
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:08 pm:

Boy, I should use spell check....
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:29 pm:

Sorry Cheryl, but I train dogs, and you can wallop a dog into submission, and he will learn, or you can teach a dog, by positively reinforcing good behaviors, and correcting bad behaviors.
I am sure they are thinking that horses kick each other to communicate, but my horses pin ears back, and give the evil eye first, and the others listen.
I would always follow my gut reaction to how someone is treating my horse. You are the one who will be living with the end result. I have elbowed my horse when he got in the way, or kicked at him backward, when he trys to run me over, but to overtly kick at a horse to correct him, just does not feel right to me! That same horse will be having a leg swing up over him to ride someday, I would want him to like my feet coming at him.
Just my thoughts on the matter
suz
I fired a farrier just for calling my, very kind horse a "son of a b...."
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:31 pm:

By the way, I choose the positive reinforcement method. My animals never, ever get smacked, or hit! That is just a people thing!
suz
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:45 pm:

Cheryl, I second what Susan said, if my horse is trying to run me over I will back kick him.
To kick a horse in the belly when you are trying to bridle him... seems like maybe the trainer needs more training.
It also is worrisome that the assistant apparently is copying the trainer.
I know things are not always as easy to do as write but I would sure be concerned.
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:48 pm:

Thanks for your thoughts. I am eager to hear from more of you. I'm sort of taking a poll!!

You're exactly right though...the time I told them I didn't want them kicking him like that - their response was that it doesn't hurt them that bad and not nearly as much as if another horse kicked them. But, you hit the nail on the head..........horses give many warnings before they take those measures.
I live WAY out in the country and it is very hard to find a farrier. My farrier hauled off and kicked my little 15 hand mare so hard she fell down and ended up stomping MY foot so bad I thought it was broke. Poor thing was flat out on the concrete. Oh was i PO'd. He's gone now but it took me a while to find another guy. But I let the farrier hear my thoughts on that whole situation. Gives me a stomach ache just remembering it.
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 5:50 pm:

yep, backing is exactly what I would have done but like I said it seems some people's first reaction is just to give 'em a kick. They dont take the time to breath and think of their options.
Ok - that's 2 for not proper!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 7:11 pm:

IMO kicking a horse sure isn't going to teach it to stand still while you're tacking up or mounting! Backing, getting it moving in a circle,...there are several things trainers do that would be a lot more effective. It's true the kick probably isn't going to hurt the horse that much, unless the person has steel toed shoes, but it not going to teach the horse what you want. It doesn't sound like this person has enough patience to work with young horses. IN this instance, the first thing I would try is steadying the horse, telling it whoa, stand still with it for a few seconds and tell it how good it is, then try the bridle again. With a young horse that isn't used to the bridle, I wrap the bit in vetwrap and soak it in molassas so the horse learns to accept the bit. Dennis and some of these other guys that do a lot of training might have some better suggestions.

The only time I've ever kicked a horse was when a very feisty "too big for his britches" foal turned and kicked me. Without even thinking I kicked it back hard. He never kicked again and had a lot more respect for me after that. It probably wasn't the right/best way to handle the situation, but it did teach him he wasn't as tough as he though. (I've also bitten a foal before.)
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 7:30 pm:

I have bitten my dogs on the muzzle when they mouth me too Sara. I've pinched (like a bite) my little Levi, when he was a nipping youngster. I try not to advise my clients to do that too often, or they might think I am nutty, but it sure works. Make the punishment fit the crime, as they say. If I have an animal act aggressively towards me, I sure let them know, in no uncertain terms, that I am running the show. Especially one that I am buying food for, paying vet bills, etc. But to just kick a horse for not standing still, where is the logic in that approach, eh?
suz
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

Cheryl first I am sorry that these people have set such a poor example for you. I have never seen anyone kick a horse in every day training and If I ever saw anyone raise their foot towards a horse it was a knee jerk reaction towards something dangerous the horse was doing or about to do and even then they felt horrible afterwards.
I will be the third one that says teaching by methods of intimidation won't get you far and I personally think it's rather cruel as there are better ways than force to teach an animal that doesn't know our language etc.
I would get a new trainer immediately. And glad to hear you fired the farrier, I feel bad for the poor mare he kicked to the ground. Hope she was okay!
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:05 pm:

I like the molassas idea and will use that as an alternative idea when I bring up this whole kicking thing again. I didn't confront the trainer on it today. I hate confrontation and as you know, I fightin' mad at the time.

Thanks Sara for "admitting" to kicking once. I kicked my first horse a couple of times. it was my first horse and I was working with a typical cowboy type that used kicking a LOT and I thought it was ok. but then came to my senses.

I do agree we have to be the alpha species when we're working with such large animals and sometimes it calls for drastic measure. But to use kicking your horse as a common thing is horrible.

I'm feeling more confident already about the conversation with the trainer. They can be such arrogant types some times!
Member:
Canter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:14 pm:

I'm with the others...a knee jerk reaction of kicking the horse in the stomach doesn't seem right to me. One, it's not an effective training tool and two, it's possible a kick in the stomach poses some risk of hitting something vital. By virtue of their build, I would think that it's rare that a horse gets kicked in the stomach by another. The blow is more likely to land on the chest, butt, rib cage or a leg. Aside from this, the trainer (and assistant) clearly did not respect your request. I would have to wonder what else they are doing that would be worrisome when you're NOT around.

I'm with everyone else...find another trainer.
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:16 pm:

the talk about dog training makes me think about some of my thoughts today as I DrOve home from the barns. Trainer and assistant always bring their dogs to the barn. Great dogs and we all love em. but, I thought....what would they do if I kicked their dog because he ran off with my gloves!?!? That would be a different stoty wouldn't it!

That's nasty thinking but I was just daydreaming about ways I could get them to understand it's not right!

I just took my 7 month old standard size poodle (my 1st poodle!) to positive reinforcement puppy class. His name is Earl and he is SO sensitive you can hardly look at him cross without him looking like his feelings are hurt! So opposite my 2 year old male lab!
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:28 pm:

OK I am so far behind tonight it is not funny but this really frosted my cookies. I see more than a training issue here.
If you are the employer and the trainer is the employee and you clearly stated your line in the sand... he had the opportunity to voice his opinions and he did not do that.
1-If you hired the painter to paint the fence white and he used green would you expect to be paying for this?
2-If this is what he does in front of you, what is going on when you are not there? This is more than respect for the horse (don't even get me started there!!!) But respect for you... this is YOUR horse. IMO, unless someone is endangered, and this clearly was not the case... when you resort to violence you are out of tools. If a trainer is a mind bender, his toolbox is empty. This is not a 3 strikes and you're out kind of thing. What he did could endanger you down the road.

I have a house full of company... all horse people. They wanted to know why I was on the computer instead of feeding them.... they did not understand the question... "she said don't kick and he kicked her horse in the gut and she let him live???? He should be grateful!!!and give the horse a freebie kick" I gotta get back in the kitchen... I will check in the morning and see how badly I got roasted.....
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:57 pm:

No roasting from this Cindy very well stated! If you can't trust your trainer he is the wrong one!! Old Cindy
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 9:04 pm:

Cheryl,

Lose the 'trainer'(??) and find another or do it yourself. My young mare can be a handful at times, but I take many, many deep breaths and ignore the bad behavior and PRAISE the good behavior.

Sounds like 'old cowboy' training. Leilani
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 9:05 pm:

It is really difficult to find someone to trust 100%.
Took my mare to a guy North of Dallas. that didn't work out very well either.
And used a local guy for my TB. That was a REAL disaster. I asked him to work on tying. The TB had broken 5 lead ropes on me. The guy left him tied to a trailer for 4 hours and he ended up dragging the trailer several feet. Can you believe he even told me that? Now the horse has a sore back. Wonder why??? I got him to tie now(still not solid, but he doesn't wig out. I used the Ted Blocker tie that Clinton Anderson has)
I really did my research and talked to a lot of people and each of these folks were recommended.
oy.
One of the reasons I choose this lady was that she was much closer than north dallas and that way I could visit on a very regular basis.

I will have a firm discussion with her. I've gotten to know her well and I hope that she will either agree to stop this or admit she will continue in which case I will remove my horse from her facility/
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 9:11 pm:

If anyone knows any GOOD trainers (eventing goals) in the Houston area.....let me know and I'll send you my email and you can provide me the trainers contact info.

he's got 60 days under his belt, into his 3rd month so he'll be ready for a 3 month vacation and then back into training. I'm not skilled enough to do it myself!
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 9:14 pm:

Amen to what Cyndy writes! Not only did he ignore your instructions, apparently this is standard operating procedure with this trainer and that's a HUGE red flag. It only comes from a lack of knowledge on the trainers part--only tool in the box is a good analogy. Regarding dogs--our police dept. here spent thousands on a K9 and his training even sending an officer to Belgium to learn how to work with him. After bringing him to Idaho and using him for a year, (with a 100% successful record) a trainer came to do a maintence tune up on him. He was bonded to his own officer and didn't respond according to the trainers desire, he kicked the dog, ruptured his kidney and he died! You just have to ask "How's that kicking thing working for you?" I'd fire the trainer, and if there's no one else available, get some books, DVDs, etc. take your time and do it yourself.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 9:34 pm:

Cheryl, believe it or not, there are a lot of excellent trainers out there, in all disciplines, who are not arrogant, but are enjoyable to be around. I wouldn't put up with an arrogant one....this may be a feeling that comes with age, but I'm paying them, they are my employee - get the drift?? I think all the trainers I've had have been great people; I've learned a lot and enjoyed being around then and working with them. It should be a partnership, just like with your horse imo.
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 10:59 pm:

You're right to be concerned. And if they're doing that in front of you, no telling what they're doing behind your back. Boy, if I were you, I'd move that horse ASAP... Maybe someone on this forum can recommend a good one in your area.
Member:
Nastazja

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 10:59 pm:

Cheryl, have you ever heard of Monty Roberts...
I would personally castrate any male or female if they would begin kicking my horse in the stomach and call it "ground work".

Same with stallions, one does not let ANY farrier to pierce the horse in the balls in order for it to listen.
Member:
Nastazja

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 11:03 pm:

By the way, no one that trains a horse CAN get angry at a horse, your trainer could do more damage and cause more trauma to the horse that would be irreversible. Training with anger goes right out the window.

Oh my.. ignorance makes me sick.
Member:
Nastazja

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

The bridling problem.. Monty Roberts has plenty of useful tips and we use them will all of our horses. I usually offer a horse a treat, usually a human treat because they are not very fond of horse treats, and then try to take his attention off the bridle by having someone 'scrub' his neck... it takes patience.. but eventually they learn and don't really care about bridling anymore. Does your horse let you approach him with a halter in hand?

N
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 11:20 pm:

Cheryl, in Wichita KS, the barn I show at called Briar Fox, is not only for dressage but has a beautiful eventing complex as one of it's owners was an eventer who has ridden at Rolex. I will ask him if he knows of any trainers in the OK, TX area that might be of assistance to you in your eventing endeavors. I should see him next weekend if they reschedule the dressage show that was canceled due to the ice storms this week or you can check out their website www.thehorsefarm.com area and contact them to see if they know of any trainers in your area or a little north in OK.

v/r
Corinne
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 11:23 pm:

This horse is very approachable. clip muzzle, ears,etc ....without a halter
climb all over him....
run up to him with flags
ride bikes around him
that's why I told her from day one he simply wouldn't deserve to ever be kicked.
And she wouldn't call kicking part of her "gound work" ....got to give her a little credit. it's just the subject line I used so people wouldn't think I was talking about kicking to move a horse forward while under saddle
Member:
Nastazja

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 12:09 am:

Cheryl... just take a look at Monty Roberts, and you can do the training without all those old fashioned "experts".
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 1:09 am:

Cheryl,
Trainers and assistant trainers who use kicking in the stomach as a training tool should not call themselves trainers.
If you e-mail me personally, I will give you the name of someone I know in the Dallas area. If she doesn't have room on the docket, I'm sure she will be able to recommend a trainer to you.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 1:09 am:

I say lose the trainer..
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 2:18 am:

Any trainer that would use a kick and consider it a training method does not deserve the privilege of working with any animal. Believe me, that is most likely just the beginning of what your horse will endure in that persons care.
I had a farrier that kicked one of my horses in the flank, just to move her over. I happened to be standing right near them, and I quickly picked up his tools and threw them in his truck and told him to leave and never come back.
It is abusive behavior, a show of impatience and you cannot trust your horse with someone like that. it can also make a sensitive and willing horse nervous and fearful.
I am on the side of the others....find someone else. Always remember it is YOUR horse and putting him or her in the wrong hands can bring upon both of you a lot time to undo the wrong. Not to mention you bring back home one unhappy companion.
Member:
Nastazja

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 2:53 am:

Lynne... fabulous.. Thank GOD there are people like yourself here that can enlighten others.. I was almost losing hope for some of you !
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 5:00 am:

Corinne,
Thanks. That would be great.
will you email me? cmoran1@earthlink.net
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 7:27 am:

You are NOT being too sensitive. I would stop training with these people It is unaccepatable for the trainer and the assistant to kick your horse. It sounds like they find nothing wrong with doing so, since the helper was so quick to give you the info on the trainer almost falling when kicking your horse. A lot of people are intimidated by big horses, or it could be just poor horse skills combined with frustration (because of their poor training skills). No training is better than bad training (or kicking).
Good luck - I had a bad experience with the first trainer I sent my guy to...I found him chained in a stall with no one around with his leg tied up. He came home that day...he was scared and had lost a lot of weight in a matter of a couple of days.
-B
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 7:48 am:

I'm curious what the horse was doing at the time of kicking (both times trainer and trainer assistant)... whoever above said that basing the punishment on the crime is correct i think in some instances, only the person doing it really knows the level of the reprisal. What if someone sees me slapping the horse on the neck, but didn't see the horse try to take my arm off before that.

I believe in the 3 second rule. If the horse does something terribly aggressive, overly too playful, dangerous to you, others, etc. Than you have in that 3 seconds of his action to do what you deem necessary to scare them back let them know you won't take the abuse. BUT only if its swift and just. My one horse bit me bad once in the stall, cleaning. I went at her with the rake. She nailed me good too.I spent 3-5 seconds acting like a mad woman with that rake. And my little episode back, put the balance of respect back. (i never had to do that again)... I was in the stall, she never acted out like that before. (in hindsight, if i didn't trust her i shouldn't have been in there, but thats another thread :}).

and i've done the shoulder in to push if they are in my space. the elbow, the slap of the belly, even a kick at times. but they in my opinion were all necessary "get out of my space" reactions to a possibly dangerous situation. And they were one time only occurences... And most importantly this was MY horse. The trainer is just a trainer. And i don't know your lease arrangement, does the owner feel the same way about this as you do?

Before you get all wiggy on the trainer, ask why and what was the issue. And why did she feel the need to kick. Were her hands full? and it needed an immediate response to something? was the kick more like a push with her hand? What i don't like is the comment, this seems like a "frequent occurance". Than i would be wary. Make sure its an abuse. And that its happening with everything...

I don't like half the things trainers do, to tell you the truth. And have fired them for lesser things. and more. but always find out the reason behind it. and if you can't justify it than get rid of them by all means. This kick might just be the one thing that just put you over the ege instinct wise on the trainer in general. And get rid of her at that point to, because now youjust don't trust her.
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 9:31 am:

WOW... a subject on which we are ALL of the same mindset....Cheryl,it is not POSSIBLE for you to overreact (as long as there are no firearms involved). NEVER do you knowingly pay to have your animals mistreated. One of my houseguests is a horse hauler who will be passing through Texas next week. She would consider it an honor to divert to Houston to do the confrontation if you are uncomfortable with it. She will hold while you kick the trainer! (just not in front of the kids or horses) !#&*(&* she would even go just to convert YOUR confrontation into a Kodak moment so we can post it here! LOL.
A soulmate(man,horse or dog); a creative and intuitive trainer; a farrier with a strong back, brain and soul;an honest, competent mehanic;a brilliant diagnostic vet who has not burned out yet; a meticulous manicurist...these are all epic & challenging searches.:-) Keep looking...the right one is out there, waiting for you to find him or her. You know when you find each of them. And it will feel soooo good. Let us know when you find the right one... we get to feel good for you too!
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 10:00 am:

Jojo - the horse was tied to a post (not x-tied) and she was just trying to get a bridle on him. He's only had 60+ days on him and he still gets the wiggles over the bridle. He's a good boy though and I always found that giving him a verbal and then if he still doesnt behave - a smack...works.

I believe that in some dangerous situations a kick in the belly - or whatever you need to do -is okay. This situation was no where near warranting it.
Member:
Christel

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 10:42 am:

Cheryl, Im curious as to why you told the trainer not to kick your horse- had she kicked another one in your presence? Just seems to me that asking a trainer not to kick your horse is an 'off the wall' statement- would never enter my mind to tell a trainer that unless I'd seen him or her do it before- and if i'd seen it happen would write that trainer off in the first place.
Anyhow- I believe in a kick for a kick, maybe in some circumstances, but certainly not a kick for not accepting the bridle- and I don't understand trying to put on a bridle while horse is tied up- when tied you have taken away your horses ability to flee, which I believe only complicates the situation. I truly feel when a horse feels trapped they get more scared, and intimidated- makes the horse feel he is being forced to do something, some horses can tolerate this but many cant. I have a couple of horses that I have learned to ask, not tell, they will do anything you ask them to, but try to 'make em' do it, no way.
Good luck, there ought to be a trainer in your area with a little more horse sense, lots of horses in the Houston area.
Chris
I use rope halters alot, especially on horses that I know I need to start accepting the bridle. I never completely untie a rope halter, and put them on the horse much like one would the bridle- then take out the slack to where it fits. They get use to the headstall part going over their ears before I try to put a bridle or headstall on them- this may help your guy.
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 11:56 am:

Yeh, chris....you're right.
Why even think to tell them that?
Well, this is where my guilt comes in.
this trainer I am speaking about came to my house once to help me with something regarding this horse we're talking about. He wouldn't stand absolutely quiet when she was picking up his feet and she hauled off and kicked him. I made it very clear at that exact moment that I do NOT kick my horses. It was in that same timeframe that I was considering who to give him to for his 1st 90 days of training. I have been taking lessons with this trainer for months and she was eager to start him. But, after that situation I was really unsure of what to do. My mare was up in north dallas with a colt started and I was not happy with that situation either. And as I mentioned earlier I had my TB with a guy last year that was a disater in the making. So, I started calling all my horse friends - feeding off them for info on who they know.....could they asked other people, etc. I finally decided to let this trainer take my guy and made it clear on several occasions that I dont kick him. Like an idiot, I thought that our friendship and trust would ensure that she was respecting that request. That is until yesterday......
I'm going to set a time to speak candidly with her this afternoon. If she wont agree to stop this practice I will remove him from her program.
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 12:04 pm:

You know, horses are as individual as we are. Their personalities and dispositions are to be treated as such...as individuals. Anyone working with a horse to teach it all the right things must evaluate the bestand correct way to do this. It is through consistent, patient, sensitivity with a kindly discipline that builds trust...not destroys it with fear or intimidation. Most of the problems people encounter with horses , in my opinion, are man made. I will always remember visiting a barn, many years ago, and witnessed a "trainer" whipping the front legs of a mare with a long whip...they were bleeding and the poor horse was standing like stone, scared to death. It was a long time ago and I was just beginning to be exposed to the trainer aspect, and when I asked what he was doing that for, the reply was " she refused to back up, and this is the way he will teach her, she must back up when asked" At that time I had no experience with trainers, but I knew this was terribly wrong, and I walked into the round pen and asked him to stop. I was sure he was going to use the whip on me...ordered me out and told me this was his method of training.My heart still breaks for what that unfortunate horse had to endure.
When I teach my horses to back up when I am on them, I simply spend time saying "back up" and shift my weight back and forth. In time they make the connection. It can be so simple.It has also never failed to work. Horse are much more willing to learn from someone who treats them with respect and kindness than with abusiveness. If they learn their lessons out of fear and mistrust, it takes forever to gain it back.
Member:
Cmora

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 12:48 pm:

Ok everyone! I talked to the trainer.
She knew I was upset because when I told her I wanted to talk face to face she asked me if it was about the assistant giving my horse "the boot" yesterday.
I'll spare you the run down on the whole conversation but I am now confident this will not happen again.
Really, truly confident. I am feeling MUCH better.
I also reminder her that my horse is being shoed for the first time tomorrow (i cant be there) and that I expected HER to be the one telling the farrier that the owner does NOT go for KICKING! And she agreed to that as well.

Feeling better! I thought my whole day would be ruined. I didnt sleep well at all last night. Thinking about how my horse must wonder why I ever put him there. Thinking that maybe the kicks are why he has three nervous poops everytime he gets tacked up. Thinking that I had to confront the trainer and what would I say! Geesh. I'll need a nap today.
So thanks everyone who wrote in. I really was afraid to say anything based on the fact that maybe I was being a wuss but you all agreed with me and that made it easy to talk to her today.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 12:49 pm:

How-come the horse is head-shy in this way?

Is the bit causing a problem?

Maybe there was little trust between trainer and horse, and now there will certainly be even less.

Chris is correct IMO as a rope halter/ actually most halters, can be put on the same way as a bridle, except the bit is missing. How does the horse accept the halter?

Maybe the horse is ear-touch sensitive. Have you investigated all possibilities?

This just requires gentling and desensitizing through good repetition.

If ANY-ONE kicked my horse in an unwarranted manner (my decision as to what is warranted) that would be the very last second they had access to my horse. Period.
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 1:15 pm:

Very glad you got that load off your shoulders, but Gail was really looking forward to strapping on some spurs and goin' after this girl..lol
Hope you have a much less troubled sleep tonight.
Member:
Amara

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 2:54 pm:

i'm a little late getting into this cause the weather here in north texas kept me away from internet (and work!)...
while i'm one of those that doesnt mind "being stronger" with my horses if they misbehave - the situation has to be appropriate, and the "punishment" has to be appropriate...
a horse that is difficult to bridle needs more ground work so that he doesnt have a problem with the bridling...i dont start to ride a horse until he willingly takes the bit, because his acceptance of the bit out of my hand is a sign of his acceptance of the bit in general... i dont want to be riding a horse that doesnt accept that "basic" control.. punishment for something that he is uncomfortable with to begin with will only make him more uncomfortable... and of course, how you administer punishment... its not just the timing, but the general appropriateness...
your trainer may well understand now that you dont like your horse to be kicked... the problem is, she does generally think that going to "3rd stage" punishment right off the back is ok... so no, she wont kick your horse, she'll just haul off and wail him in the gut with her hand/elbow/or farrier tool....she's blasted all thru etiquette and yes, her training methods may wellbe why the horse has 3 nervous poops while you are tacking up.... 1 normal poop during tacking is a basic sign of stress to the central nervous system.... 3 nervous poops are way beyond basic stress....

times like this i wish i was still training horses professionally, tho i guess i could still take one or two in if i really wanted to...

take the horse home or send him somewhere where he can just hang out until you can find someone who can work with him appropriately... the difficulty with bridling is something very easily fixed in a very short time without any "punishment" ever required, so anytime anyone thinks that punishment is the way to train a horse with a "nervous" problem should never be allowed near a horse... a complete lack of understanding of basic horse psychology has been demonstrated...
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 3:02 pm:

Melissa - you are so right about the three poops while being tacked up....

He wouldn't stand absolutely quiet when she was picking up his feet and she hauled off and kicked him. And for the ass. to kick your horse because he was having a hard time putting on the bridle??? What kind of training is that? It's not going to help the situation....and to do it right in front of you.

I hope everything goes well with your horse. I don't know the trainer, but from what I read here, I have a hard time believing someone who kicks a horse out of frustation and what sounds like poor skills, would stop doing it. But then again, I am not the most trusting person when it comes to my horses. And I am not big on second chances when it comes to the treatment/care of my horses.

Maya Angelou once said something like this - When someone shows you their true self, believe them the first time.

-B
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 4:46 pm:

A great quote Barbara...and how much truth it speaks. I could spend a week here on examples of trainers and their true selves. ..and the damage to horses they created. I wonder how many people realize how easy it is to put a horse in depression from being ill treated.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 7:30 pm:

Didn't read the entire thread, but will say that personally I would not put up with this type of behavior from a trainer (kicking a horse and calling it "training" -- I don't think so)! This type of idiocy will only cause you problems that must be overcome. In other words, you are paying a trainer who is causing you to need to spend more money for more training than you needed in the first place.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 8:53 am:

Lots of good points here, and lots of questions for me. First ... 60 days on this horse and he is tied and won't stand for bridling. As a trainer, I shouldn't start mounted work period until bridling is a smooth and stressless routine. Also, I like to provide the opportunity to escape and work on the desire not to. If the horse has a problem with bridling, being tied only escalates his fear. I give the horse the opportunity to choose escape, then use the movement to give him the opportunity to choose to come back to me. I want him to learn that standing patiently is much more rewarding than trying to escape. The bridle probably isn't even the problem, it is just a reaction to the real issue.

As for the kick in the stomach ... as a reflex reaction to a dangerous situation .. maybe???? as a routine part of training or handling in general .. you got to be kiddin' me. I would rather see the horse go with no training, than subjected to abuse "of any kind".

After reading many of these threads, I think I need to reevaluate my business plan .. perhaps a "mobile training" service.

DT
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 9:23 am:

Cool Dennis, may I be first in line? owner training, this I could use.
Lori
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 12:01 pm:

Hi Cheryl

I think we are out of the dark ages and we know that horses are intelligent beings that understand vocal communication a lot faster than we understand theirs.

You would not kick a child in the stomach if it did not, what you asked would you! There is a very good saying “You don’t lash a child for not reading a book if you have not taught him the ABC first”

There is no excuse for hitting dogs, horses or anything for that matter! A sharp No is more than enough. And the only way they will learn is by repeating the instruction until they have learned it

There is not a bad student but a bad instructor, and this one sounds lousy!

The damage that kind of behavior causes on a horse will last for ever, if you kick your horse then don’t cry when it kicks you…


I’m sorry but it really makes me angry these so call trainers... I’ve spent years re-training horses, some of them on death raw thanks to human stupidity.

Please for your horse’s sake don’t let this pea brain near your horse!
Liliana

PS For some reason the message comes underlined, not me gob. Didn't do it}
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 2:05 pm:

I'd keep a close eye on this trainer for a while to be sure the questionable training practices end. I don't know the Houston horse community well, but it's a big city with a lot of horses, so there must be some good trainers in the area. If I were you, I'd keep polling on this forum and in your area so that you have a backup in case your current trainer doesn't work out.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 2:48 pm:

Cheryl, I wish you luck with this "trainer", but with her cavalier (sp?) attitude by referring to her assistant "booting" your horse, I would still be very cautious.
I watch the animal planet cop shows, and see the anguish in the officers leaving abusive people with warnings and instructions, knowing full well that is all they can do for the animals for the moment. Your horse is looking for you to be providing him with consistent, kind care, I just hope he does not have to endure another 30 days of "she's not here, will do it my way!" attitude.
Keep us all posted
suz
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 3:10 pm:

I just have to say it is very encouraging to read so many post of people who truly look out for their horses in the training area. Far too many of us are taken in by what we see on the surface and have to learn the hard way of what goes on behind closed doors. As with Liliana, I have had to rehabilitate horses who were mistreated in the hands of a trainer, and gain their trust. One horse took a full year to bring around from depression and he was not in the hands of this trainer very long. Horses are very sensitive animals and can be crushed mentally by abusive treatment , even in a small amount of time. I am so glad to see so many respond to this post with so much caring and compassion for horses.....speaking out to try to save one from a bad situation.
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 3:40 pm:

Cheryl,
I have to agree strongly with the previous posts. I have a horse who was trained in the way your "trainer" trains. This trainer swears she never abused my horse (before I owned him), but everyone saw what she did and I now have a horse that often feels the need to defend himself. I've worked with him for 6 years and we still have problems when he feels threatened or someone approaches him with fear. He seems to associate fear with abuse. I know this trainer was abusive out of fear and ignorance. Don't trust a leopard to change their spots. This is an ingrained behavior that will not be easy for the trainer to stop, even if she really believes she should and tries to. Good luck with your horse.
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 5:37 pm:

I totally agree that horses gain nothing from abusive handling. It only makes them distrustful and slows down any progress in their training. My Arab gelding had obviously been "ear twitched" before I bought him. I asked to see him bridled before I bought him, but many of these things can be hidden by a clever owner or trainer. When I first tried to bridle him I almost got clobbered. A "house call" trainer helped me with this problem by bridling him one piece at a time. I had to do this for a year. He never objected to the bit, but you didn't go NEAR the ears. Now, no problem, but it took a lot of time and patience to get over the damage done by the handling. I can rub his ears, tho' I have never tried to clip them...(I can get real close, tho')
I "fired" one farrier for hitting my old horse with the rasp for leaning. I fired another one for telling me how to vote...
There should be no question on who is "the decider" when it's your money and your horse.
Member:
Sully

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 3:33 pm:

This has been an interesting thread. In the situation Cheryl mentioned, I would be horrified. Sounds like the asst. uses this technique to try and "fix" everything.
On the other hand, I am not against kicking a horse in the belly under certain conditions. And you never kick with the toe into the horse. Your foot is pointed so only the top flat part of your leg connects with the horse.
I have kicked my Flirty mare, but it has been years ago and I only had to do it once. Sorry to say, but I cannot even remember why. I only know that for me to react in that way, she would have had to of put me in danger with her actions. She would also of had to know better. I am lucky as my horses are all easy to get along with and very respectful. So please don't get the idea that I make a habit out of this.
I believe in the 3 sec rule JoJo mentioned. If they were being disrespectful in a way I or anyone could be injured, they would receive 3 seconds back from me. (never of course near the head) And just like with children and dogs, never in anger. That in mho is when it turns into abuse.
Sully
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 3:55 pm:

I think Dennis is absolutely right on target. If the horse wasn't standing still for bridling (or whatever) then that needs to be taught. You can't just proceed to tacking up and riding and expect the horse to know it's a good idea to stand still. You just make the wrong thing hard (not painful!!) and the right thing easy. It's not rocket science, but it does seem to be a gift a lot of people lack. A horse that is anticipating a kick in the belly is going to be more anxious the next time someone approaches with a bridle and the problem is going to escalate and carry over into other facets of his training. Anxiety does not put a horse in a good frame of mind to learn! Rethink this trainer. Julie
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 9:29 pm:

Cheryl, I hope we have not scared you off, with all of our "opinions"! You asked for opinions, and boy did you get them,eh. Seriously, keep us posted on how things are going!
Suz
New Member:
Judyhens

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 11:56 pm:

Hi,
My vote is to consider openly discussing this with the trainer and assistant, making it clear what you believe is the right training method for you and your horse. However, can you trust that this won't recur in your absence? It is important to have a trusting relationship, where you truly believe your horse will get a solid training base, without being obedient solely out of fear. We have a trainer from Peru who lives with us and has trained our Andalusian and Peruvian horses (and occasionally boarder horses) for years. He is quiet, calm, and I have never seen him kick a horse regardless of the situation. In actuality, I can't remember ever seeing him hit one under any circumstance. Although he is not a large man (probably 140 lbs and maybe 5'4") horses instantly respect him and look to him for leadership. End result: calm, respectful horses who want to please, trust people, and (errr....for the most part....) seem to enjoy work. Our dressage trainer is wonderful also. Her philosophy: "If something goes wrong, clearly I need to try something different to help the horse understand what I want." She laughs a lot and truly loves the horses. It's all about communication, development of a relationship, and true love of the horse. You cannot believe how hard the horses work for her in response to her hugs, rubs, and praise. They puff up and just look so happy, proud and pleased!
My opinion only. It works for us...
Good luck! My thoughts are with you!
Judy
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Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 8:35 am:

I just skimmed through this whole lengthy thread now for the first time. All I know is that anyone kicking or hitting my horse would not be in contact with my horse again. I had a farrier, ONCE, who cracked my horse with his rasp because she needed to put her foot down and readjust her stance. HE was afraid of being hurt and reacted accordingly. HIS problem, not my mares.

I agree with how Dennis put it. This horse should be standing quietly by now for the saddle and bridle. If not, someone needs to step back and start over here. It sounds like this horse is anticipating getting kicked or whacked so that is adding to the being antsy.

I have a very timid big guy. I, out of frustration, slapped his front legs for flinging his feet out. He would just throw his front feet out, and patience was not working. (took weeks to train him to lift all 4 feet, big issues there) It did work to get his attention, and he no longer does it. But at the same time, it sent his trust for me back to almost square one. He went back to being jumpy for everything else again.

Point is, SOMETIMES, a swift action can help. But unless you have a good relationship already with the horse, it will set you back in the trust area. If the trust is there, and you need to crack your horse to save your foot, you face, or whatever, fine. It will be over in a second or 2, and then you will both be over it, and the horse will be the same afterwards.

Doesn't sound like that is the case with this trainer/horse relationship, the horse is "worried". I would bring the horse home and train myself. It is very difficult to UNDO anything that scares a horse and causes them to lose their trust in people.

Dennis: So when did you say you were going out on the road?????
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 1:16 pm:

I would say Judy has the ideal situation...a trainer on your property that you can keep an eye on what they are doing with the horses...and the the perfect result of calm, respectful horses that want to please. Horses have such unique spirits and the wrong handling can dampen or destroy that in no time.
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 2:39 pm:

Sullivan and Angie,

I know it takes all sorts to make the world, but I am so glad you are the exception to most of us.

If patience is not with you on a given day, then do not deal with horses in that moment, walk for five minutes and then continue.

Aggression only brings back aggression, anyone that hits animals in my experience are the kind of people that do not tolerate anyone else disagreeing with their opinion. And excusing yourself for not being patient at the moment is indeed a poor one. I would encourage you to take a good long look at yourselves and find out why you have not learned to control your temper.

BTW Hitting means aggression even if it is with a white glove
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 9:30 pm:

Liliana,

If I am reading your post correctly, you understood me to be saying I lost my patience and hit my horse on the front legs for flinging them out. Let me clarify that: I did not loose my patience, I was trying to convey that being patient and gentle was not working with him with holding his front feet up; (over a period of weeks) at this point he was not doing this because he was afraid to hold his feet up, he just wasn't paying attention and the riding crop across the front of his leg each time he flung his big ol' hoof past my knee cap got his attention! Yes, I was frustrated, but not angry. Just trying a different tactic. Maybe that is where I came across wrong...I said out of frustration?

It's hard to explain, I guess you have to know the horse, and have been there. But I honestly don't know the last time I lost patience with one of my horses and hit them, kicked them, or yanked them around by the reins. Lead rope yanked, yes. Reins no.

I agree completely that aggression causes more aggression.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 8:21 am:

This is an age old question that will never have an answer that all agree on, whether we are talking about animals or humans. If you "always" spank, it means nothing ... if you "never" spank, it means nothing. If you are "always" kind and gentle, 99% will accept you as a wonderful leader. However, that 1% will challenge and test you at every turn, and we better be able to recognize that 1%. A smack on the leg for the striking horse or a smack on the nose for the biter, is not only acceptable,IMO, but necessary. We need to know how to be firm when necessary, but never mean or aggressive.

In regards to this post, as I said earlier, a kick in the stomach for not standing to be bridled is ridiculous and shows either a lack of training knowledge, or an aggressive behaviour. Neither of these is a good trait for a trainer, so I would remove the horse. But, to scold Angie or Sully for being firm in a dangerous situation, is also ridiculous.

DT
New Member:
Denise

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:51 am:

I agree wholly with Dennis's last post. We all want to be partners with our horses, but someone has to be the leader. This is just how horses are made. I always want to be the leader. If a bite, kick, or threat in anyway is not responded to and just ignored you can bet that the next time it is going to be bigger. By ignoring it or giving a flimsy response you have just told the horse that they are the leader. They win. I don't know about you but if I am going to have a 1000+ lb friend, I want to make sure that he respects me and my space. Horses like to have boundaries. Just like children. It there are no boundaries they are less relaxed and on guard. When you are the leader they look to you for guidance and safety. Have you ever had a horse get nervous or scared about something, but then see that you are calm, cool, and collected and settle right down? Do your horse a favor and set some firm and consistent boundaries. Everyone will be much happier. Food for thought... how do horses react to each other in the herd and set pecking order? I've never seen a horse give another a slap on the wrist.
As for giving treats to get your horse to do what you need... what happens when you are on the trail and your horses refuses something, how can you give a treat if you are in the saddle? I am really enjoying this thread and love the openness and helpful responses. Nice.
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