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Discussion on Saddle stating slipping again
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 7:04 am:
Hi , My horse has changed shape yet again. I have 2 wintecs, one was flocked to his back the other is Cair. They both slip to the right. The flocked saddle was done only 6 months ago. When his right hind is forward the saddle slides right then pops back into place.
I was at a sight for Korrector pads for asymmetrical horses. They say to add padding air or whatever to the right hind and left shoulder. He is hollow behind the right wither. They say that the stronger left shoulder is pushing the saddle into the hollow. My saddle fitter puts more stuffing in the hollow where as the Korrector sight says the opposite. I am a bit confused. In my minds eye I can sort of see both working. However stuffing the hollow on the right wither on the saddle proved to be a temporary fix and he has white hairs on the left fuller wither. I hope this makes sense.
I am confused. I have a mattes correction pad that I intend to use. Any thoughts on this what makes more sense to you.
Thanks
Katrina
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 8:33 am:
Hi Katrina, the fact that all your saddles slip to the right make me wonder if it is you that is out of balance, not the horse's back?
I don't mean to sound like you're off balance because of poor riding, but I thought of it because I know that one of my knees is higher than the other, and even though my legs are the same length, if I don't have my left stirrup one hole longer than my right, every saddle seems to slip left because I put more pressure on that stirrup.
Now I know you are a long time rider, but this happened gradually to me (maybe I have started carrying my hips differently?), I don't know why, but it just did! If I look down when I am riding I can see that one knee is further forward than the other.
In my case, maybe a chiropractor could help straighten me out. But it was just a thought for you to consider. It isn't always the horse that causes the saddle not to fit. Good luck!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 8:55 am:
I am not an expert on this, don't ride English either. I do though have an older mare that has a bump on her left shoulder so it is higher than the right. (think if may be from mounting from the ground for years?)She is also higher in the rump with a sway back. So I feel your frustation here.
A few things I do. I put foam under the right side at her right shoulder. I use a mounting block now. I also visit my chiropractor when I feel myself going off to the one side. Not sure if she starts throwing me off, or I helped make her "off", but it's all connected I figure. And I ride more to the right than left. (I don't ride this horse much, my 12 yr old does)
I agree that the stronger side is pushing the saddle into the weaker shoulder. You must feel that when you ride?
Not sure about adding to the right hind? I can't see that either.
I am still working on the dip in her back, trying different foam setups there. I suggest calling Len Brown who makes the corrector and explain to him what you have, and see what/why he suggests what he does.
Is he the same at his withers and rump? I would be afraid of adding the rear and putting more pressure on his shoulders.
Very good questions,
can you post pictures?
I am waiting to hear from others on this, may help my problem too.
Good luck, let us know if you get it resolved.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 10:49 am:
Have you been able to ride any other horses, both in your tack or theirs? That will help you see if the problem is at all in your position. I have had the same thing Erika mentioned, been riding 28 years now, but getting stiffer in my lumbars and hips. I was having a problem with the right canter depart in more than one horse. Had some lessons without stirrups, was videod from behind, had a quite audible chiro adjustment, and became aware of my right hip being tighter. Just something to look at, as you seem to have taken a good look at the horses and the saddles. Stacy
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 11:57 am:
I concur with the above suggestions regarding your balance and weight distribution. I would add that you might also try using a non-slip pad and see if that helps. You can make the pad from that cushioned shelf liner they sell at hardware and home supply stores.
I also have to work to not put more weight on one side ever since my first knee surgery. I was unaware of it until I saw a picture of myself and saw me sitting lopsided!
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 1:07 pm:
I have a picture on my desk of me on my horse; my right foot is a good 4 inches lower than the left. Like Stacy I've been having problems going to the right. The picture is a daily reminder to work at sitting straight and balanced.
You might want to ask someone else to get on your horse with your tack and see if they have the same experience.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 1:55 pm:
Excellent suggestion, Chris.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 3:38 pm:
Thanks. It comes from multiple instances of being "humbled" in the same fashion!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 6:42 pm:
Thanks guys,
Not mounted the saddle prefers to rest to the right also. On the full left wither there is more space than the right wither with the hollow because it falls into it. This is also unmounted. I am sure I must be adding to the problem. The idea of riding another horse is a great idea. I am constantly riding to keep both stirrups level and its a constant battle. I think I will also get someone else on his back to see what happens. Great idea. I have always been nervous of others on him because of his bucking, He is older now and much more mellow, so maybe I am worried for nothing. The cair slips a lot less than the fitted saddle but falls onto his shoulder down hills. The wool does not. It just is weird how the right wither with the hollow has no white hairs. Its the left stronger that has white hairs. This shifting has also started to rub the back hairs.
I agree it is probably me,. The Korrector web site says that if you balance the saddle as they say add left front rear back that it also helps riders stay balanced as it forces you in the correct position so that you don't add or make the horse more asymmetrical. I had people ride behind me and tell me when the saddle slips. At the walk its very mild. at the trot its more noticeable. I can feel it. I am not getting a korrector pad but has anyone been to the site and licked on asymmetrical horses. let me know what you think. I always try to ride with my feet level and balanced. What else can I do if its me. Ideas please. I will try and get pictures.
https://www.korrector.com/Korrector/korrector%20frame.htm
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 6:58 pm:
I just had another thought. I have right knee problems and my left leg is stronger and more supple. Would that not cause the saddle to shift to the stronger left.
I also know that when doing dressage I would lean to the right in corners so I had to purposly put extra weight on the left outside leg to keep me centered. Though traveling straight I did not have that problem. I am so confused.
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 11:05 pm:
In my horse's case, he is asymmetrical with the right shoulder far less developed than the left.
The first time it was pointed out to me, I felt like such an idiot for not having noticed it before. When I stand directly behind his rear looking forward, it's SO noticeable. The right shoulder is definitely less developed than the left.
The first saddle fitter added extra padding to the right front of saddle. I also have the Mattes correction pad and they added extra foam to the right front pocket (and some to the rear pockets).
The second saddle fitter thought the saddle was overstuffed, blocking his shoulder and not allowing the muscle to develop. She restuffed the right front of the saddle, still more padding than the left but not as much as before. She also took the foam pads out of the Mattes pad and recommended a wool pad. She felt that it would provide extra padding to the right side without restricting the movement. Now I ride with the Mattes correction pad (without any foam inserts) and the wool pad. I'm careful to put the saddle far enough back (1/2 Saddlebred, his shoulder comes WAY back). After warmup, I dismount, do some stretches, make sure the saddle is where it should be (and still far enough back), and tighten my girth. If at any time during the ride, I feel myself tilting right (oh, say I was too lazy to do what the previous sentence mentions), I dismount and make sure everything is where it belongs.
(To make things more fun and exciting, I spent several months last year in physical therapy for problems with my lower left back, so if the saddle shifts right, I feel it.)
I just took a look at the above Korrector web site. It says that if the LEFT front is smaller, then the saddle will slip to the right. In my case, the right front is smaller, but the saddle isn't slipping to the left.
All of that being said, when I ride my horse regularly and he is in good condition, all of this becomes much less noticeable.
Sorry for the long reply! 
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 11:23 pm:
Katrina, knee problems are why I have to constantly remind myself to balance off my hips and center myself. If I ride balancing off my feet I always wind up lopsided. I've had surgeries on both knees and now on one ankle. Both my right knee and now rt. ankle too get sore and as they do I shift more weight to the left. If I ride dressage style, or at least how I was taught dressage, I leave my lower legs fairly free except to cue the horse. I balance on my hips and seat, and ride off my upper legs, if I'm explaining this right. If I remember to do this I don't get lopsided.
I would assume the white hairs on your horse's wither is from saddle pressure and would indicate to me the saddle is too tight on that side. Could that be the case? If that is true, would the fit being too tight in that area push the saddle over to the looser area?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 6:28 am:
Sandra when I stand up behind him to look at his conformation from the top. The left looks bigger than the right because the right is hollow behind the withers. Even though it looks fuller on the left the shoulder itself is smaller and stronger. (IE the scapular is further back) I think the slipping to the right presses the saddle on the left thus the white hairs. I can feel when I tilt and am always shifting myself.
Sara that is a good point I am going by keeping myself even in the stirrups. When I ride without stirrups (allot) I do this because I don't have to keep adjusting myself. I don't think the problem is half as bad. Actually at the walk it does not slip , so you have a very good point. I am hoping to adjust my saddle so I don't have to work so hard at keeping the saddle stable. I guess I will try what the korrector site says, then try the other way by filling the hollowed wither.
When the saddle is centered while off his back there is more space under the gullet on the fuller wither(weird), but when it falls into the hollow on the right it puts more pressure on the left. I think? Maybe I should just lose the stirrups. Hey it would be good for me to post without stirrups
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 11:42 am:
I just got back from the barn. It was too icy to ride. So I decided to try different padding with the mattes pad. First I tried what the Korrector site said. walked him around and checked the balance. Way off one stirrup was way longer. Tried the same thing opposite padding. Stirrups were off( not level) took all pads off and had just the saddle. right stirrup was slightly longer after hand walking. So now I know it is his back causing the saddle to slip, But I might of helped his back change that way with my posture. Lastly I tried padding in the hollow just in the front and that kept the saddle still at least unmounted. Now to do all this under saddle. And find another horse to ride.
Thanks for all the helpful ideas.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 6:31 pm:
Sara, it is interesting that if I ride with a longer leg "dressage style", I have less problems with the shifting too. Makes one rely on balance more, and less on stirrups I guess?
Katrina I don't have any suggestions for you. Saddle fit is a difficult thing to figure out, isn't it? Hope you find the answer, though.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 11:12 pm:
Erika, the downside, at least for me, to riding with a longer leg is that in a western saddle I sometimes loose my stirrup, which is "no biggie" except in a class. I'm not sure why I do that as I don't loose them in an english saddle. Something wrong with my seat I assume.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Sara,
I'd guess that you lose your stirrup more in a western saddle because of the stiffness of the fenders. In an english style saddle, I think the flexibility of the leathers and the overall lighter weight of both the leathers and the irons compared to a western saddle fenders and stirrups make it easier for the rider to influence them.
I know that I always had to work harder at keeping my western stirrups in the "right position". I had better success when I was religious about turning my fenders back and keeping a broomhandle through the stirrups when I wasn't riding.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:04 am:
Chris, you're probably right. At shows I use the trainer's saddle as I don't have a show saddle, only a working one. My working saddle is almost as old as I am, very soft and well broken in (to say the least!) Trainer's saddle is a lot stiffer than mine. I ride with my stirrup leathers a little long anyway due to my knees, but am going to the gym and trying to strengthen knees hoping it will help. (sigh...I hate the gym)
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:29 am:
Regarding the slipping of stirrups, especially in a western saddle, here's a tip I learned from Wendy Murdoch. Check to see if your feet are parallel to the ground, because many saddles put your feet into a slanted, improper position. We built up my stirrups (on my western saddle) by placing folded up cardboard pieces on the side where my foot slanted in, then wrapped the cardboard with vet wrap onto the stirrup. Not only does it help keep you from losing the stirrup, but it alleviates tension (and thus pain) in the knees, and creates a better position in the seat as well.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:51 am:
Great tip! And from one of the best. Love the vetwrap idea. Even if you're feet were level, it would give more "grip."
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 2:00 pm:
I would love to try that tip for my husband, he always gets very sore knees 1 hour into the ride,and is ready to quit. I don't quite understand where to place the cardboard. I know I am a spatial learner, i have to see things to understand!
thanks
suz
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 7:36 pm:
Susan, First look at how your husband's feet lay in the stirrups. Are they angled in and down, as mine were? In that case, build them up by placing folded cardboard on top of the lowest part of the tread of the stirrup. The object is to have the rider's feet lie parallel to the ground.
Another tip from Wendy: I'm not exactly sure how she did this (since I didn't do it myself), but she took the stirrup leather with the holes which sits behind the fender, and twisted it, then reattached the metal slide piece so that the fender is always sitting perpendicular to the horse's body. This is another adjustment to ease any knee pain incurred while trying to keep the fairly rigid fender in the proper position. (Some of those stirrup turners would probably do the same thing.) The idea is not to use the rider's muscles (tension) to keep the tack in position.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 10:10 pm:
Picturing what a person is talking about:
Just a tip, if you have a scanner, you can draw a picture of what you are describing (I know, you're all going to say "I'm no artist!", but you might be surprised how the simplest drawing gets your point accross--I've done some really lame ones and Dr. O gave me compliments!) then post it as you would a photo.
Hope this helps some of you who are as brave about your "artwork" as I...
Maybe should post this under "Tips"?
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:50 am:
If showing, I suggest you check with your breed association or whomever regarding modifications to tack. While building up the stirrups as Dove2 suggests will help, you may not be able to show with the built-up stirrups.
One thing that I have seen people "get away with" is putting a strip of skateboard tape (looks/feels like sandpaper with an adhesive back) on their stirrups to give a little more grip where their feet touch the stirrup.
Not only are the fenders stiff, but then you're trying to keep the stirrups facing forward by the pressure of your boot on smooth leather!! And people think riding Western is easy!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 11:45 am:
Right, Dove! I enjoy showing English much more than Western; I think it's a lot easier. But...for high points etc. I need to show Western also. I enjoy riding Western on the trail, but then I'm slopping around in my ancient saddle that fits like a soft leather glove.
Have any of you used the Mountain Horse SCS system where the boot kind of clicks into the stirrup pad? If so, did you like it? Do they make a similar system for western?
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 7:18 pm:
OK, now I'm really going to embarrass myself, but in the interest of helping someone out, here's my drawing (I hope this works!):
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/NaturalWay/stirrupadjust.jpg
Clear as mud? 
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 7:55 pm:
Hey, not bad Dove!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 8:46 pm:
Beautiful!!!
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 8:58 pm:
 
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:43 pm:
Now, I get it!! We lifted out house and put in a basement. I make my husband hold sheets of plywood up for walls, so I can imagine what he is trying to create in the new basement. It is quite comical actually to watch him try to balance boards for his brain dead wife! But some of us learn just a little differently than others. We will definately try this out! Hope it helps. thanks dove
suz
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New Member:
mz4horse
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 4:08 pm:
DOVE - Thank you! The tips from Wendy are invaluable, especially for me, since I was having trouble with the metal stirrup turners biting into my lower leg. They have a high and a low side, and I don't know which should be forward, tried both ways and it just doesn't feel right at all, unless they re-design it.
Of course after reading your post, I ran out and twisted the holed stirrup leather which lies behind the fender, like you said Wendy did. I found that if I twisted it clockwise twice and re-attached it, the stirrup stays in the desired position and the twisting does not seem to bother anything! I have not yet ridden in the stirrups yet, will do today and post here again, but could you tell me if this is how Wendy did yours, by looking at them? Did she twist them once or twice?? And now that's how you always have them when you ride?
By the way I LOVE YOUR DRAWING about making the stirrup treads level with the ground - I needed that tip desperately as well, because as soon as I'm in my (abetta western) saddle and stirrups, i find the length of my soles tilted sideways, outer side down! This was a first for me, because I used to ride English before and had different challenges then.
So thanks to you, and bless Wendy a hundred times, for these ESSENTIAL handy know-hows for good balance that one doesn't always get from one's trainer and a lot of western riders are not yet aware of.... Happy rides !!!!!
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 8:29 pm:
Mona,
Glad I could help. As for the stirrups, mine are only twisted once. In other words, the part of the blevins (see https://www.dailyequine.com/expert/Western-Saddle-Parts.asp for diagram) that would normally face the back, now faces the front/outside the horse. I guess it would really be half of a twist. You then reattach the blevins buckle and the fender stays in the correct position. I would imagine if this wasn't enough, you could twist the blevins yet again. Yes, now I just keep my stirrups that way and life is good!
As for the wedge on the stirrup tread, did I mention you wrap the whole thing (the cardboard) with vet wrap? Because this is such a common problem, Wendy is having leather wedges made up which will be available (soon, I hope) on her website. You'll be able to just tape it down without the vet wrap for a much neater appearance.
I just love people who take the initiative to invent things that are sorely needed, don't you?!
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New Member:
mz4horse
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 12:37 pm:
Dove - again, thanks !!! The illustration on the webpage is v. clear and I see what you mean, twisted once or twice might depend on the results obtained with that fender. And yes, I got the bit about the vet wrap - also excited about Wendy's new leather wedge to be available soon - I'll be one of the first to order it! Thank you so much for all this info. I'm a much happy camper on both these accounts now. Honored to exchange words with someone who seems actually to have worked in person with Wendy - wow !! Yes I totally love her stuff, she's always exactly where students need her, right where the critical gaps are ...y'know? Be well! Mona.
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