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  Discussion on Problem with saddle fit for Andalusian stallions
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Member:
Judyhens

Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 5:22 pm:

We have a Wintec Isabella dressage saddle with the CAIR system which has worked well for a long time. Just prior to the nationals, one of our Andalusian stallions seemed sore on one side of his back a few inches down from his spine. This was toward the croup. This particular stallion is very short coupled and round, typical of the P.R.E. horse from Spain.
The pain was very localized and where the back of the saddle contacts the horse.

We are looking for another saddle at this time and have tried five new ones, ranging in price up to $3400, which is actually more than we would like to spend. But comfort for the horse is the most important criteria. Some fit the horse well, but not the rider Some fit the rider, but not the horse. We have one coming to try that was special made for the P.R.E It is flat rather than deep, so I am not sure how well the riders will like it. What are the pros and cons of flat? Deep? We would like this to fit other horses also, because it is a significant investment. So far, the other horses seem fine with most of the saddles we have tried. However, most are not as short coupled as this particular stallion. Any input you might provide would be appreciated.

Judy
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Member:
Cspanhel

Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 6:08 pm:

Hi Judy,

My stallion (who you know, of course) had soreness in the same area, and he was eventually fitted with a Barnsby...the thing that seemed to make the most difference was the fit through the withers and the shape of the panels--the Barnsby panels really spread the rider's weight across the entire panel...they were pretty much uniformly the same thickness against the horse no matter where you looked. My Albion, which had made him sore before, has really thick panels, but they do seem to concentrate the pressure right there at the back of the saddle.

The person that fit the Barnsby to him is in Wimberley...

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's comments as saddle fitting is something you can never learn enough about!

cynthia
Member:
Judyhens

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 12:03 pm:

Hi Cynthia,
Thanks for the info. Carol McArtle, who is taking Saltador after breeding season for advanced training, recommended a VERY flat saddle made in England for both stallions. It just arrived, so we will try it next week. She said they had it made specifically for the P.R.E., and allows the shoulders full freedom of movement. On the negative (or positive side depending upon your prospective), the seat is apparently flat. This is a big plus according to Carol (and she gives some important reasons). However, some riders say it is more difficult to ride. And the tack person sending the saddle said some people don't like it because the horse becomes so powerful as the front end opens up that the rider may have a hard time sitting the trot. Saltador has become almost as animated under saddle as he is in halter and I am already hearing that sitting the trot is an incredible experience. With Saltador going for higher level training next summer (Nancy says he is ready), this leaves us with really needing to fit Magico. He's the most short coupled and the one that was sore.

What is your experience re: deep vs. flat seats? Obviously, if the rider isn't comfortable, this isn't going to work. We are all hoping for the best. If it doesn't work out, we will try the Barnsby. Clearly that worked with yours!!!!! I still love that mare's picture!!!!

Judy
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Member:
Cspanhel

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 12:53 pm:

Re deep vs. flat: I really can't say what an advanced rider might prefer, but I can't imagine trying to sit even the working trot on Saltador (or Odi) without the deep seat, but I'm sure how the stirrups hang affects that too. I love the comfort of my Wintec Isabel (and ease of use/cleaning, etc.), but I have trouble getting my legs to hang the way that feels secure at the sitting trot--tend towards a chair seat--and it's even worse at the canter...However, this is more of a problem on the stallion than the mare, and the mare has a much longer back. The saddle fitter in Wimberley does not like the Wintec at all. She says it makes the horse sore, and so it seems to do so, at least on some horses. But other saddle fitters think the Wintecs are great...so go figure.

I use my Albion on the mare with the huge extension/medium trot...and I'm back to using the Albion also with the stallion...I'm using my Wintec as a spare saddle and for starting young horses.

Super to hear that Carol is taking on Saltador--that is very exciting!!
Member:
Judyhens

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 2:21 pm:

Here's Carol's note to me. You probably can better understand what's she's saying re: pros. Will give you feedback when Nancy trials it. Otherwise, we will try the Barnsby. Do you like the Albion better?

Here's Carol's comments. I do really respect her.

"I hope Nancy likes it...it not only is good for the horses, but I think the flatter seat is good for riders, and with Nancy's background, I think she will find it easy to sit in. Dressage saddles have gone to deeper and deeper seats, and I think it makes riders feel that they are closer to the horse, and can feel the horse better, but in reality it really just locks the rider in one position and they cannot move around to where they need to be. It also invites a rider to grip with the thigh or knee, rather than sit relaxed with lose hip joints. These make good horses and good riders."

Thanks again for your input!
Judy
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Member:
Shanson

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 5:31 pm:

Sounds like you're working this out. Just out of curiosity, though, could it be the CAIR panels that are causing the problem with your stallion? I've heard pros and cons on CAIR instead of wool flocked panels, but don't have experience with it myself.
Member:
Judyhens

Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:40 pm:

Sharon, actually the problem is at the very back of the saddle where the seat touches Magico's muscles on one side just a few inches down from his spine. Magico is so short coupled that the saddle is hitting the area where his hip and croup muscles are already rounding out. If he had a longer back, the saddle wouldn't be a problem. Or if the padding under the back of that particular saddle didn't dip down there wouldn't be a pressure point and problem. I am not the actual rider of the horses. I just own, pet, love, give treats to... etc., etc., the herd. So I am actually not a good evaluator of the panel system. Our riders actually loved it. But when Magico started getting sore, they changed their minds...
:-)

Anyway, I never dreamed that saddle fitting could be such an ordeal. Hopefully this one will finally work!

Judy
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Member:
anta

Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 1:02 pm:

Hi Judy,

Like yourself I have had many saddle problems with my Lusitano which have a very similar shape to the PRE. Having bought him as a four year old, the wintec was fine for his shape but as he got older, hes now nearly nine, he changed and started to fill out and mature, especially from seven years old and I know these horses can be late bloomers. When he was seven I had a saddle custom made for him, it was a deep seat but had lots of undersided padding. I could not ride in this as I felt to be perched on top of the horse and not sat around and with him in his movements. What I have now got after many saddles later and cant it be an expensive experiment is, a shorter saddle. I had always ridden in a 17.5 inch saddle, why because I always have, I found though the help of a good saddle fitter that I can fit into a 17 inch saddle, therefore taking that extra weight off the horses back. Also i would check rider straightness, really not trying to blame anyone, but sometimes we can inadvertantly become crooked, I was checked by placing a line of colored tape down the centre of the saddle at the back and videoed going away down the arena, the tape clearly shows if the rider is one sided and most of us are, just a thought as the soreness you describe is only one sided. If this had not worked I was going to look at a flat native saddle, like the ones developed for highland ponies, as they are flatter withered and rounder not unlike the shape of the PRE. I hope this is at least of some help.

Kind Regards

Anita
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 8:32 pm:

Dont know if this helps but my friend uses a treeless dressage saddle on her percheron.
also in my andalusian mag I vagely remember an ad for Saddles that fit Iberian horses. Ill try to find it.
Member:
judyhens

Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:11 pm:

Thanks Anita and Leslie!
Actual our rider did say that someone observed that she tended to lean very slightly to the sore side. She is now aware of that tendency and is correcting it. That is a very good point!

She did ride the short coupled stallion, Magico, in the Frank Blaine saddle modified for the P.R.E. It seemed to fit the horse very well, and was short enough front to back that there was no interference in the front and no touching of the croup in the back. The horse seemed quite relaxed and content. Tuesday she will ride the stallion who has not had any soreness issues (he is 1.5" longer in the back than Magico), but has absolutely huge front end movement. This saddle is relatively flat. We need to be certain that Nancy is comfortable with it with a big mover.... :-) Anyway, she is very positive at this point. If she is happy on the big guy, then hopefully our problem is solved.

We have heard pros and cons about treeless saddles. Has anyone out there had experience with them?

Judy
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Member:
leslie1

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 10:46 am:

k I dug out my mag and found this ad. It says" built with the Baroque horse in mind." www.trumbullmtn.com
leslie
Member:
judyhens

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 7:17 pm:

Thank you Leslie. I will check out that site!
Judy
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Member:
cpacer

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 10:36 am:

I recently made the switch to a treeless saddle and absolutely LOVE IT!!! The one I got is the Freeform Treeless english saddle that can be used for dressage, endurance, or whatever (I'm more of the whatever), but I'll tell ya it's about the most comfortable thing I've ever sat on and it also fits any horse!

The Freeform is a sleek looking saddle too. It requires a special pad and inserts if you have a particularly high withered horse, but you can get the saddle and pad for about $1,500. It also uses a dressage girth and requires special leathers. The stirrup/leathers attachment that it comes with is kind of wimpy so I think they're in the process of redesigning it, but I had my local leather shop create one for me that is very strong.

I'll share any other info you'd like to know about it--I even switched from a western saddle for this one and actually feel more secure in it.
Member:
judyhens

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 9:47 pm:

Thanks. I will pass that info along to a friend who was wanting info on treeless saddles. I never realized that finding the "right" saddle could be such a challenge.

We did ride the huge mover in the flat saddle today. Our dressage trainer really likes it. The horse virtually flew.

Although I believe we will purchase this one, we will definitely keep your info., both for now and potentially in the future.

Thanks again for your input!

Judy
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