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  Discussion on Mare aggresive toward my daughter, daughter now terrified
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New Member:
dyates

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 12:15 am:

Three years ago I bought Lady, a 16 year-old quarter horse mare because of her calm, safe, easy-to-work-around babysitter-type personality. I bought her with the intention that she'd be great for my children to learn to work around horses. (I've since found that my son can't because he's allergic}

I was going to bring her to our house immediately, but didn't manage to do so until 3 weeks ago. (Permitting and other such problems). In the mean time I kept her for reduced board at a stable that used her in lessons. They considered her to be worth her weight in gold, and really didn't want to give her back to me. She was their reliable, calm, horse that they could put timid kids on, and allow kids to groom. We seldom went there because it was hard to coordinate our using her when they weren't needing her.

I'm pretty comfortable and confident around horses. I owned several good-natured horses growing up and during my young adult years (About 15-20 years). I'm also a veterinarian, so I've worked with plenty of horses in plenty of different types of situations and know how to project confidence around a horse. (I would not however have the confidence to work around a really aggressive horse).

Lady was a bit ill-mannered when she first arrived home. She'd turn her rear to you in her stall. She wouldn't come near you if you were bringing her hay out to her. She'd flatten her ears, walk away, and refuse to come eat until you left. Same thing if you tried to walk over to her while she was eating her hay (to straighten her blanket for example). She'd refuse to let you come near her. (I cured this in one lesson by tying her while she ate, giving her treats, and petting and praising her). She's fine with her grain or treats.

Meanwhile she was just the most amazing sweetheart to anyone outside the paddock wanting to pet her and show her attention.

The night before last, to my utter dismay, she viciously cornered my 12 year old daughter in her paddock! We had been outside trying to find a lost cat. I found it, brought it inside, called to my daughter and when she did't reply or come I went looking for her. My daughter was cowering and crying hysterically in the corner of the paddock. She said ever time she tried to get to the gate Lady charged her. She said she cut her off every time she tried to leave the corner, lunged at her, and struck out with her forefeet. I thought surely she was exaggerating!


Late that night when I was bringing her in, she initially acted "witchy" and moved away. I foolishly not wanted her to get away with it, chased her. (I know that was stupid and dangerous) Next thing you know she managed to kick me in the thigh!

Today I worked with her a lot. I made her allow me to work with her while eating. I went in the paddock a lot and put her lead on and off a lot. I gave her lots of praise and treats and petting for good behavior. She was good as gold, and very affectionate and pleasant.

Later I had my daughter go out with me holding Lady on the lead rope, and had her pat her etc. My daughter of course was very nervous and timid and flinched at every movement. We repeated this a lot and Lady was great.

Then I tried moving away a bit, (still holding the long lead rope), and sure enough Lady LUNGED at my daughter very aggressively-- forefeet out and teeth bared.

So much for the great baby sitter horse and my daughter learning to be her care giver. She's now terrified of the horse. I'm thinking I'll have her back shoes removed to make her a bit safer, but I guess Mom will be mucking out the stall and doing all the work maybe forever.

ANY IDEAS? I'm wondering if she just got sick of being around a bunch of kids with inconsistent rules and treatment. My daughter also just told me that she heard from one of the girls at the old stable that Lady had stepped on her foot and knocked her against the wall.

Thank you in advance for any input.

Sincerely,
Debby
.
Member:
36541

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 12:57 am:

Hi Debby, welcome to HA. Gosh, pretty scary stuff and unusual from an old hand as you describe the mare. No matter why she did it, she did it more than once and seemingly unprovoked if I read it right. Maybe she loves the hustle and bustle of a working barn, and is now bored with your home routine. Does she have a buddy - horse, goat or otherwise? IMO, I wouldn't wait long at all to move her along, maybe right back to the lessons barn with a full disclosure of what happened. If you have a full-time job, and may not always be right there to chaperone people around this mare, I wouldn't feel bad at all about finding her a new situation. BTW, it may sound like a strange question, but were either of you cycling? I have known some mares to be belligerent to menstruating women, though not to that degree. From what you've said so far, I can't see the risk/benefit ratio to be in favor of her staying. Best of luck, you'll hear from lots of very experienced people in the am I'm sure, Stacy Upshaw
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 6:05 am:

Welcome Debby,
I think my first step would be to further explore her behavior at the lesson barn. Prior history may give us an idea if the horse has become "kid sour" from use or if this is a dominance issue.

This sounds like a horse trying to establish its place in "your herd" (the mare, you, and your daughter) with quite extreme behavior. In such a small herd she quickly focuses her aggression on the weakest member, your daughter, though she obviously has questions about you too.

The first episode in the paddock sounds like she was trying to dominate and control your daughter's movements, herd her so to speak, but none the less the mare's behavior potentially very dangerous. With just 3 weeks this may settle down but how do you ever trust her again?
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 8:02 am:

I think she's fed up with kids and lessons. I would give her time, but make sure your daughter stays away from her. If you don't feel comfortable around her, get rid of her, it's not worth it to take a chance getting hurt.

She may be in pain too. My Arab mare will act like that if she is hurting. She won't charge but she will pin her ears and turn her butt. Or pin her ears and balk if you are riding her. Every time, it's turned out to be a pain issue somewheres.

I did have a mare, for a week, that did charge and kick everyone and everything, we returned her because at the time my kids were all very young. I had visions of their faces with hoof prints from this horse kicking them as they looked through the fence.

Maybe just leave her for a week or 2, and study her behavior for clues? I wonder if some kid was really really mean to her.
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 9:20 am:

Another thought--If after investigating her behavior at the lesson barn you find that this is new behavior; it may be possible that the mare is now not getting ENOUGH work, and is looking for ways to entertain herself.

Your poor daughter, though, needs to be protected from the horse, which I am sure you already know. She won't be able to convey a confident exterior to keep the horse from challenging her again.

Stacy is thinking the way I am, that if she was that good and the lesson barn wants her, maybe you should consider selling her to them or trading for a different horse?

Good luck and stay safe.}
Member:
hwood

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 9:48 am:

I concur with the others, Debby, especially since it seems neither you nor your daughter want to be in the horse training business . . . and this mare is going to take a little more energy and focus than what you expected.
She doesn't have a halter on all the time, does she? (I picked up on your statement about attaching and unattaching the lead rope.)

In the meantime, I would always have a lead rope in my hand whenever I enter the mare's space, and if she shows any kind of aggression, I would growl at her and step toward her and flick the lead at her . . . looking for any change of attitude (ex. from "witchy to interested" or from "pushy to unsure.) at which time I would praise her and continue with my work matter-of-factly. Maybe she'll start to settle in comfortably . . . if not, send her back to the folks who want her.
By the way . . . don't take the other kid's words as gospel unless you know that she is an experienced, horse-wise kid. The stepping on the student's foot and subsequent "push" into the wall may not have been an aggressive action at all, and most likely was the result of carelessness or ignorance on the student's part.
Member:
amara

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 10:57 am:

most lesson barns keep pretty good control over their horses and are pretty firm about establishing who is leader in the group... they are also frequently in a group with other horses that is more natural for them to establish leadership...
now she's home and as mentioned, she doesnt have a herd, and most likely has not been getting the same kind of general daily handling that she received at the lesson barn that she was accustomed to.... she was probably also getting more exercise..
by hand feeding her and standing by her when she's eating you have given up your place as leader in her mind... she now has every right to do to you whatever she darn well pleases (at least in her mind.. )
as you say you are experienced but only with good natured horses...you've now also established yourself as low man on totem pole, so it will be much harder for you to regain your position.. she's good natured, but you'll need to do a lot of hard work to bring it out, and you should do it with someone who knows how to correctly establish the leadership situation your mare needs....

as an aside, tho i dont think this is the whole of the issue, were their any health problems at the other stable, and what were they feeding as compared to what you are feeding?...
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 11:54 am:

I also agree with everyone else's comments. I want to add that I have noticed significant departures from what a horse's "normal" personality is when that horse is put into a new situation or when a beloved "buddy" is removed. At our farm we have a 12-yo QH mare that belongs to a 12-year-old boarder. Though she's never been all that loving, she was never a problem either. She was very bonded to a large pony that shared the same field. When we sent him to live with a neighbor as a long-term free lease, her personality took an amazing turn, and not for the better. Though she could see the other two horses on the property and socialize with them at night while in the barn and during the day over the fence, she was in the front field by herself. The only way I can describe it was that she became sullen and angry and depressed...overnight. Within two weeks, she nailed her young owner with both hinds while she was grooming her. Thank God she wasn't hurt...and she now has a new pasture mate. We are hoping that she likes him and will cheer up! Maybe your mare is having an extra-difficult time with her transition and is acting out very aggressively. Just a thought.
Member:
boomer

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 12:24 pm:

Welcome Deborah! I am so sorry to hear what has been going on. It must be a terrible disappointment. I would if it were me and had a little one who is more than likely terrified of this mare, get rid of her. This mare will only turn your daughter into a horse-hater or worse an injured little girl. Maybe a much older gelding would be in order. I have both mares and geldings and I would hands down say the geldings are the easier bunch
Member:
cspanhel

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 1:13 pm:

Hi, I agree with Dr. O on this mare's behavior--she is establishing a new herd hierarchy. My mares were a little aggressive with my daughter when she was younger, though never to this extreme.

it is so stressful to remove a horse from their friends, and it sounds to me like the behavior is somewhat fear based.

I have had very good results using natural horsemanship tools with horses such as this mare. Anderson, Parelli, Lyons, others...I would try these and rely less on food rewards until she shapes up, if indeed she can.
Member:
ribbons

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 4:29 pm:

Debby, you will receive more advice than you ever dreamed of before you joined HA! Welcome.

I purchased a seasoned QH mare lesson horse for one of my daughters when she was younger. She has been the best horse I have ever known brave,dependable and calm. But no matter where she has lived, she always becomes boss mare and she has been known to charge people that she is not familiar with when they enter the paddock.Knowing this, I just don't send anyone unfamiliar to her into the field alone with her the first time. I go with them and let her know that I as the "real" boss mare accepts this person, and she is under this person.Her nature means she also challenges me once every so often. So I always have to remind her I am the only boss allowed. I never give her treats out of my hand-only in her bucket. I always make her wait for my signal before she can begin to eat. Even looking less than respectful at another human gets a quick verbal reprimand. A second infraction brings out my "ugly stick" i.e. lunge whip.Before everybody has a heart attack, I have never even had to use it as she is a smart horse and straightens up as soon as she sees it come out of the tack room. Somewhere in her history,I think someone gave her a John Lyons "three minutes" and she remembers it.Challenging me means-I have been negligent in working with her. I put her on the lunge line and work with her on lots of transitions, until she is submissive and has a more kindly softer look in her eye. Then I get on, and we have a nice, calm, short ride and she gets to go back to the either the pasture or her stall.Afterwards, I try to ride her more often as my neglect is probably the root of problem anyway.

John Lyons books really helped me to speak her "language" and like Cynthia, I would highly recommend them. I would not let your daughter alone with the horse and be ready in flash to correct any erroneous behavior she show towards anyone. I'd also give her a more time to find her place and learn your routine. Perhaps someone familiar with mare from the lesson barn could come out and help you and your daughter figure out how to be firm and fair with her.But like others have said, if she doesn't shape up fairly quickly,or her basic nature isn't compatible with your what you want from a horse, I would send her back to the lesson barn.
Member:
sporty

Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 7:26 pm:

Hi Debby,
There is no way I would waste anymore time with this mare. She sounds way too dangerous to have around, especially around your daughter. She will eventually hurt one of you. There are too many good horses out there. I would sell her in a heartbeat and never look back. I agree with Patricia, get an older sweet gelding.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 3:04 pm:

Debby,
Something doesn't sit right IMO. If she was great at the boarding stable, then she can be great with you, if you want to put the energy into working with her. Horses test us in the beginning to see how we react. Like everyone is saying, she's trying to be boss of your little herd. What I wonder, is if you really get after her and you be the boss, will she willingly back down and be content in her place? That is what happened with my horse and maybe that's what happened at the boarding stable too. It didn't take nearly as much work as I thought it would. It was only a matter of being consistent and firm.

First, I would also withhold all treat. Make food something she has to behave herself to get. Dominant horses in the pasture guard food and only the "chosen" ones get to go in and have some. Read the article at HorseAdvice.com » Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.

Second, never move for her. Always make her move out of your way, which is how horses treat each other in their hierarchy. If she brings her head or any body part in your space, boldly move to get her out of it.

You will quickly see results, if this is what the problem is. Clinton Anderson has great books and videos on establishing respect. Ground work effectively teaches this without putting us in as much risk as riding.

Once you learn how to handle her, then teach your daughter these methods. Only let your daughter work her when you are around until they get comfortable together. Since she is afraid, break things into little steps to build her confidence.

Stay safe.
Linda
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 3:52 pm:

I agree with Linda.
If she was so great, she should not have changed that much just due to a move. Some thing else has changed. One thing that comes to mind . . . what about those tumors mares can get that affect their personality. I am sure someone here knows what they are called. I is not that common but it does explain sudden aggression in mares.
New Member:
dyates

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 12:13 am:

Thank you everyone for the very helpful input. I definitely agree this is a dominance issue with the mare trying to establish her supremacy in her new herd. I inquired about her prior history at the lesson barn. They said she was generally a grumpy acting mare, but no bad behavior.

As several people pointed out, she is now in a very new and different situation. The lesson barn was very structured, as was the training barn where I purchased her 3 years ago. She was indoors most of the time, limited turnout, and ridden every day. I have her in a stall that I leave open to the paddock all day long, only closing her in at night. We haven't been working her at all yet.

I also have remembered some information that I had forgotten from back when I purchased her. She was at the barn of woman who was a Quarter horse trainer and instructor. This woman was very strict with the behavior of her horses. She was very kind, but she didn't let them get away with anything.

Lady had been brought to her 8 or 9 years earlier by a complete novice who had purchased her. Although Lady was then about 7 she'd just been in a pasture and was completely green. This woman trained her and did a ton of ground work with her. She responded instantly to all voice commands.

The interesting detail that I just remembered is that during the 2 months I kept her at that barn (while trying to find some place closer) I heard things to indicate that the previous owner (who never did become more than a novice)had been afraid of her and dominated by her. I remember not really believing this because Lady was so well-behaved and kind with me.

I think I mistook her angelic behavior around experienced strict people for an angelic nature.

Linda's post made me realize something else too. I was taking for granted all the stuff that we do instinctively once we are experienced around horses. For example, making a horse move for you, not the other way around, and not letting a horse into your personal space. I just do that instinctively without really thinking about it. Of course my daughter has no concept of that!! It sounds so obvious now, but I really was expecting my daughter to just do naturally these things that it took me years to learn.

My plan is to re-institute a stricter environment. (I think even I was letting her get away with stuff cuz she had just arrived and it was all so new and exciting for me too). I'm not letting my daughter around her unless I'm there in control.

I'm sad that she's not the baby sitter I had hoped for. Fortunately I do have time to work with both Lady and my daughter. (I'm currently a stay-at-home/homeschoolng mom). Maybe we'll try the Clinton Anderson books or tapes.

I really don't think I have the option of getting a new horse just now. Part of the reason it took 3 years to get her to my place is that my husbands is less than enthusiastic. If I got rid of her I doubt he would let me get another.

Thank you everyone. You have really helped a lot.
Member:
dove2

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 6:54 am:

I would highly recommend Clinton Anderson's "Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground" series. It's got your mare's name written all over it!
New Member:
freshman

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 11:57 pm:

I'm going to go against all the above advice to continue to keep/work with this mare and recommend rehoming her. She is not appropriate as a horse for you daughter and is a danger to have on your property.

Your daughter is too young to be considered trustworthy about staying away from this mare when you aren't around. If she were to enter the barn or pasture without thinking, say chasing a dog or cat, she could end up in this mare's territory without you. Even if she were to only iteract with the horse in your presence, there is no guarantee that she will not go after you child. What exactly are you going to do if you are there? No one is as strong as a horse.

Aside from the danger this horse presents, she has also shattered your daugter's confidence. She is afraid of this horse, and no matter what training, can never be alone with her. Not exactly the ideal horse experience for a kid.

There are many kind horses that are much more appropriate as a first horse for you daughter, and they aren't hard to find. Please consider placing this mare with a rescue/adoption agency in your area that can guarantee that she goes to an adult only home with folks ready and able to deal with her behavior and tendencies. She is not an evil or bad horse, but is not one that is appropriate for kids. Rehoming doesn't have to mean sending her to the local sale and on to slaughter, etc.

No horse is worth endangering your daughter, especially one that has proven that she will be dangerous with her. Again, there are many horses that, while still presenting the inherent dangers that comes with handling any horse, will not go out of their way to harm a child. Please consider getting this horse off your property immediately and rehoming her as soon as possible.
Member:
sporty

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 6:58 am:

Amen! That's what I say Kristen. I would not take the risk of hurting my daughter. No horse is worth that. This mare should be moved on and a more suitable, gentle mount found. You are right about the daughter's confidence being shattered. No matter how much you "train" or "condition" or "rehabilitate" this horse, it won't change your daughter's feelings. You need to start fresh.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 7:50 am:

Deborah .. As a trainer, I would have to agree with others that this horse has issues which can be fixed, or trained away. However .... the safety of your daughter "must" be the most important factor in this equation. The horse must go, if not sold or placed, to a trainer away from your daughter.
In the meantime, do not let your daughter near this horse whether with someone else or not.
DT
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 9:15 am:

Deborah,

This makes me uncomfortable on several different levels. You have told us about your perspective and your concern about your husband's flexibility (actually the lack of it) on the horse issue, and a connective threat to your daughter's self confidence and safety. The nature of the situation dictates that any input reaks of social work and marriage counseling as much as training and behavior advice.
I am concerned about the message this is sending to your daughter. Throughout her childhood, since the first time she cried and you picked her up, she has been learning that her actions have consequences. If you keep the horse and decide to teach her to confront and work on overcoming her fears with THAT horse, what message does that send to her in terms of accountability and ownership? Horses teach us many life lessons, and this lesson greatly saddens me. If it was a man who came into your yard and threatened your daughter's safety and/or undermined her belief in herself, would you invite him to pitch a tent on your property? It may not be the mare's fault, but here,fault is not nearly as important as the solution. You have been her protector all her life, the buffer zone between her and the world. She HAS to see you step up and hold ANYONE accountable for this but her. Blame the man in the moon if you have to, but PROTECT her. If you cannot be there 24/7, then the threat to your daughter has to be removed, 24/7. Sad for the horse, but if your daughter cannot feel safe at home, where can she go to feel safe? The dilemma of proper placement for the horse is secondary to your daughter's. You never set up a child for failure unless they have a reasonable chance for success. In your heart, can you say that is the case here? Or do you just hope it will be that way? Give her a success story, as many as you can accumulate before she goes out there on her own and you no longer have the ability to do so. You can't unring a disatrous bell, you can only prevent it.
So many have posted here in the same vein as this, and others, the trainers,I suspect lol, see the rehabilitaion of the mare. I truly hope you are not feeling ganged up on or beaten up. I am sure NOONE here wants that for you, as none of us envies a hair on your head for the difficult dilemma you have in front of you. We are not trying to undermine you, but help you step back and see what we see. That is what you wanted from us, right?
My Vote:Stand up TO your husband.
Stand up FOR your daughter.
Find someone else to stand up to and for the mare.
Member:
ribbons

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 11:28 am:

This thread is really getting interesting now and deals with a lot of issues we "horse" moms face which I see pretty much like jumping competition.
Jump number one- What to do about a spouse who is not as horse crazy as the girls or mom? I personally think no horse is worth serious marital discord. To me husband is first priority (given no serious issues), children second, horses third. You've got a horse at your house. Fence cleared, keep breathing.

Jump number two-Maybe need to get a different horse. How to ride this fence? Perhaps explain to your husband that with your daughters' safety utmost in your mind, a more laid back horse would be the best answer. I found my husband quite responsive when it came to the safety of my daughters.

Jump number three-A twelve year old daughter. Is this a good time to starting down the horsey path with your daughter? What has her experience with horses been so far? If this is all new to her, it may not be the best time to introduce her to horse keeping. Both my girls at times were emotional wrecks during the 12-16 year old time frame. For one, her horse was a retreat from peer pressure and many times when she was less than pleasant, a ride calmed her down. My other daughter quit riding and took up another sport (yes, and boys!)I have to believe though that some of horsey lessoned learned carried over to her other endeavors-a few more months until graduation so we will see! Very tricky fence, this number 3.

Jump number 4. Who really wants this horse? How much work is that person willing to put into it? In the end,although I involved my daughters in riding so they learn that knowledge and skill can overcome fear,to not let someone push them around, and how to love and care for another living creature, I had to admit that the horses are here for me and for my enjoyment. That's why I have still have a 12 hand pony that I know I will never lose enough weight to be able to ride!

Don't know how the rest of course rides, I am still on it...
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 11:29 am:

Deborah, I already chimed in above, but I want to repeat a possibility that doesn't involve your husband--if the lesson barn likes her as much as they said, see if they will consider a trade for a similar horse that you and your daughter can start fresh with.

Hope this helps! Good luck and stay safe.
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 11:35 am:

Teresa, your post came in while I was typing mine. I got my first horse at twelve after riding everyone else's for long enough that the parents knew I was serious.

That horse kept me out of so much teenage trouble! I was on his back every day after school, and at my recent thirty year high school reunion (gasp!!), many of my friends mentioned how I always went everywhere on Domingo. I even tied him up at the grocery store to pick up stuff for mom. I highly recommend ANY sport or hobby for teens other than hanging out.
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 12:13 pm:

Deborah, another opinion here. Although my daughter lives 3000 miles away and is almost 35 years old, she is precious beyond words. Your daughter's safety is the top priority here. I would let this mare go back to the lesson barn if they want her, let this upsetting experience have some time, then see how your husband and daughter feel. My daughter began with horses at nine, her first was an Arab/Welsh cross gelding. Nice size for her, very sweet. She moved on to bigger horses as she matured and always wanted geldings.
She was never hurt or frightened by any of them, occasionally frustrated by one thing or another, but loved her horses and they loved her. She still likes to ride with me on my geldings when she flys home to visit. Many wonderful memories.
Is this mare 19 now? Perhaps she is having some undiagnosed issues that are advancing with age...
My husband has been very supportive with my life of horses though he has never had "the passion."
Consider his feelings, give your daughter and yourself some time, but IMO she will need to start with a different horse.
Member:
hunysgrl

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 10:24 pm:

I am perhaps the youngest member on HA, only being 18 years old. Your mother is supposed to be your brick wall, the thing you can depend on when no one else is there, when there seems to be nothing left in your life, she is the one you look to for advice, even when you're "old enough" to be on your own. She is supposed to be the one you believe over anyone else and know that what she says is true. She is supposed to protect you until you have reached a point at which she knows you can make a responsible decision. Your children should always come FIRST. Try to get your husband to be involved and to understand why we as horse people love these amazing and beautiful creatures with a piece of our heart that can never be taken away or replaced. Your daughter needs to experience the amazing wonder of the horse, but in a safe and healthy environment. I would suggest lessons with a horse that has been proven not to have an attitude. There are horses like this out there! The environment of a lesson barn is most often safe and reliable. Here your daughter can find confidence within herself, because she feels safe. Has she shown a lot of interest in horses? You would not want to ruin this interest over a horse who is not safe or reliable and could quite possibly injure or even fatally injure her. Horses are huge animals who sometimes don't know their size or what respect means. After all, they are wild animals, whom we train to respect us and what we ask of them. Our body language must speak boss at all times. Your daughter is not yet experienced enough to understand this concept and may like mentioned in an earlier post wander into the pasture and end up in a very dangerous situation! The decision is yours, we're all just hoping you take our advice into consideration and use it to make what you think is the best decision.
Amanda
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 9:53 am:

Deborah--
I want to let you know how much I empathize with the husband issue. For those whose husbands/boyfriends/significant others support and appreciate the love we have for our horses, YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW LUCKY YOU ARE. Horses are expensive, time-consuming, high-maintenance animals. Whether it's right or wrong, and no matter how much this does for your mental well being and inner peace, there are some men/women who will never understand this. The marital friction that loving and keeping horses can cause is a very real source of tension in many marriages/relationships, and it's often more about the time involved or the perceived danger than it is about the money. Having horses when your husband (or wife!) doesn't understand it and sees it as an intrusion on their time means lots and lots of compromise, whether you think it's fair or not. So the husband issue alone seems like it might be a major factor for you, especially since you've had a difficult time with your mare, which reinforces the already-negative feelings your husband may have.

I always like to tell myself that when facing a tough decision, "I don't have to decide today." I hope you're able to take some time to let the dust settle a little.

There may be no perfect answer for you at the moment. And all of us on this site realize you're not going to put your daughter in danger. One thing to think about, though...every situation like the one you're experiencing makes you a better horse person and enables you to make increasingly better decisions down the road. Your daughter will recover, and she'll have learned a valuable lesson about horses that she will NEVER FORGET. Every kid who has grown up with horses has story after story...broken limbs, runaways, falls, you name it...I don't see this as that much different. Horses are horses...in owning them, we encounter every kind of temperament--the good, the bad, the really ugly. Personally, I move the really bad and ugly ones on...and have done so many times. I hope that whatever you decide works out for the best for your family.
New Member:
dyates

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 12:54 pm:

Thank you Terri, I really appreciate what you have written, especially your acknowledgement thatof courseI'm not going to put my daughter in any danger. The fact that I have chosen to home school my children and that I am at home with them rather than out pursuing my veterinary career should be some indication that I put my children's (and my husband's)best interests uppermost. I was rather shocked by some of the over-the-top responses in this regard.

I posted my original question specifically to gain insight into this mare's behavior and I have received some very helpful responses. I re-read your earlier post Terri and I do think it has been an adjustment for her to be alone. The day she chased my daughter, we had had company who had spent a lot of time patting the mare and making a big deal over her. I almost got the impression that the mare was really pissed off when every one left.

This observation was reinforced by my experience yesterday with the farrier. Lady was so happy to be with him! I'd never seen any thing like it. He kept saying what a jewel I had, and I had to keep saying believe me she really did chase my daughter and kick me!

In any case, we left her barefoot behind just to help a bit more with the safety. I'm going to purchase the Clinton Anderson tapes that Dove2 recommended. The farrier recommended a nearby barn where my daughter can get some horsemanship lessons working around some really safe horses. I'm being very strict and methodical with Lady,incorporating Linda Lashley's advice, and she seems to have learned very quickly what my rules are.
Again, Thank you everyone for your input.
Debby
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Member:
jjet

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 12:59 pm:

Deborah, I think your plan is good but until your daughter has the strength to face that mare down and dominate her she will neither enjoy the relationship nor be entirely safe. You must spend the training time with the mare first, with your daughter watching you get results, that should help her gain the confidence to use your techniques to assert her position (with you at her side at first).

If the horse is not "crazy" she will respond. However, most older animals seem to have developed the self confidence to put up greater resistance to retraining than a very young one, so it may take some time.

But, most importantly, you must remember that your daughter's very traumatic experience with that horse will affect her for a long time, I speak from experience, so you can't rush her. She will overcome the fear in tiny, incremental steps that have to come from her desire to learn and her confidence in her ability.

A lot of your time will have to be devoted for this project to succeed.
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:00 pm:

Debby--you're welcome. I speak from experience on the husband issue. And I have also done some incredibly stupid, dangerous things as a horse mom...I just didn't know any better. Lauryn has survived numerous falls, aggressive horses, a badly broken finger that required surgery, some very bad and some very good riding instruction, and a gorgeous 5-yo Paint STALLION that I purchased for her at age 10 at a friend's suggestion and had gelded...(that tops the list of incredibly stupid things I've done because I didn't know any better). This is a pretty short list. There is lots more.

We have learned together, and we have survived together...at 18, Lauryn rides beautifully, she has broken several green horses, and teases me about "trying to kill her" when she was younger. She is becoming a real horsewoman. Your daughter will get involved to the extent that she wants to...you can't force her, and believe me, if she truly loves horses, you won't be able to keep her away. As long as the ground rules are set and she follows them, you'll be fine. Keep us posted on how Lady progresses!
Member:
hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:02 pm:

What is traumatic for one person may not be so for another person. Much is dependent upon how we view events in life and how we view ourselves . . . are we powerless victims or confident movers and shakers? Also, our desire to succeed in a particular area will determine our willingness to apply our energies and resources to learn more and become expert.
If the love of horses runs in your daughter's blood as it does in most of us here on HA, I don't believe that this experiece will discourage her IF she is given the example of how to deal with such a horse and how to retrain the horse to be respectful and responsive.
I had some pretty scary experiences with my first horse. Some of my friends would have given up, sold the horse or let it rot in the back yard, and would have gotten involved in sports instead of horses. For me, the bumps in the road . . . the concussions, rope burns, broken toes . . . were all challenges to overcome, because no matter what, I knew I wanted to be with horses.
So . . . Yes . . . lessons from a self-assured, gentle, wise instructor will help, and lessons from a loving, wise mom will help, too.
I take my commitment to my horses (all of my animals) pretty seriously. I see the relationships as mostly permanent . . . and will try to find ways get through the "bumpy" times.
I think the example of "sticking with it" while learning as much as possible and learning to triumph over the fear and miscommunication is a good one to learn in our society that tries to avoid discomfort and thrives on "quick fixes."
On the other hand, if this horse is just a hobby that is filling the need for extracurricular activity, and if you and your daughter are not committed to the time and learning and risks involved in working with horses, then it is best for you and for the horse to find some other kind of hobby . . . and place the horse with someone who wants her.
One way isn't "right" and one "wrong." You and your daughter can discuss it and choose which way you want to go (sounds like you may have done so) and you have my support either way.
I learned, through my training work with horses, how to become more confident and bold . . . Successfully working with 1000 lb "dumb" animals can to wonders for a person's self-confidence.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:07 pm:

Well good luck Deborah...I hope that you didn't feel that some of these posts insinuated that you would ever put your child at risk because as Terri stated no one here would think you would ever do that....HA is just an impassioned bunch willing to help anyone in any horsey situation and everyone wants to see the best for you your family and your mare. Prayers that what ever you decide as the owner will work out for you.
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 3:52 pm:

Deborah, of course we know you would never endanger your precious daughter!

Like Holly said, I certainly did some stupid stuff with horses--for myself and my sons. The really nice five year old horse that I bought for my five year old son--you know, the one that only I can ride?

Not to mention all the lunatic horses I subjected myself to.

If your daughter is horse crazy like the rest of us, there is nothing you can do to keep her away!
You'll figure out the right thing. You've had the horse for three years; a little more decision time won't matter one bit.
Member:
amara

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 4:41 pm:

Deborah
i'm sure you will do what you feel is the right thing regarding this horse. i'm sure you will take into consideration your daughters feeling about the horse, and horses in general.. (as far as your husband goes i'm more of the hit him over the head with a 2x4 until he gives in, but then again i'm single!!!)
if you decide to keep the horse i do suggest you find a good natural type horsemanship trainer to help you.. you need to make sure everything is done right, for you and your daughter's safety... these type of horses are not nearly so hard to "fix" as you might think many of the time, as long as you are working with someone who can truly read the horse.. the problem with books and videos is that you dont know if you're doing the right thing for your horse until you get there, and if its the wrong thing, its even harder to fix....sometimes the same problem has many different causes, and "fixing" the wrong one can have long term repercussions... i know several good people in your general area, and i'm sure there are several more that i dont know!...

i have a friend that rehabs horses like yours almost exclusively, and her kids take active part in the rehabilitation... the youngest is 3... no-she is never unsupervised around the horses, but she has learned from an early age how to read horses like the best of them, and she can move a heck of a lot faster than most of us older folks!... she has never had even the slightests incident.. you might find, that if your daughter is not afraid to take on a challenge, that she will do it a whole lot better than you think... kids take to the natural horsemanship a lot better than adults do i've found...
sometimes the kids are scared to do things, but with the guidance of someone who can accurately read the horse, get very confident and very knowledgeable very quickly... usually the trainer will "get the horse started" when you have a case like this...and maybe even get them started with something a "little easier" until she feels confident...

good luck in your decision... i'm sure you will make the correct one, no matter what decision you make!..
Member:
tuckern

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 5:38 pm:

Hi Debby,

Quick question for you. What does your daughter think of the situation? I know you said she was terrified of Lady right now, but is she willing to try to work through the problems, to learn with you / from you and try to help Lady?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Hollywood said in her last post.

From what you've said, it sounds to me like Lady is bored. She's spent alot of her life in an active barn, being ridden/messed with everyday. Now, she's alone, and only has you and your daughter for socialization. I'm going to go out on a limb to say that I can understand her acting the way she has. It would be like taking a person who has a very active lifestyle, exercises everyday, is always around people, and removing him from that life, forcing him to be alone, and to not exercise.

The mare that I have now used to be just how you describe Lady. She went from living in a pasture with a big herd, to living alone in a paddock. And you can bet that I had behavior problems. She had dominance over me so much that she was attacking me when I asked her to move. But with the help from a friend, and several natural horsemanship books, I learned to overcome our problem, to assert myself, and make her see I'm boss. Now, two years later, I've got a horse that I would trust with anyone.

It sounds like you are a very confident horse person who knows exactly what needs to be done, and how to get it done. I look forward to hearing how you progress with Lady. And don't give up on her being a babysitter just yet, with a little work, and coaxing, she might just surprise you. :o)

Nicole
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 11:08 pm:

Hi Debbie,
I see that this was your first post. a doozy i must say. And personally, can't say what to do about it. But tonight i was watching SEABISCUIT for the 100th time.. and there is such an awesome scene in there that i wonder would help your daughter relate to her fears... Seabiscuit was at his lowest, mean and angry, cantankerous and no one was getting near him. Ruckus in the stall. etc...Red stands outside his stall door and then goes in all the while saying i'm not afraid of you. ( i'm not suggesting doing this, just that the scene was so much like your description)...Poignant while i had just read this post earlier and it came to mind. Actually the whole movie is uplifting...and makes me want to run out and hug my horse. helps a person remember what it is about these creatures that draw us in.

If you haven't ever watched the movie, this would be one of those cool things to do. It does nothing but get my spirits up. and now at 11 i just might go for a ride... This is what your daughter needs right now. a few movies and books that uplift the spirit. Why every little girl loves and wants a horse...

also, everyone has such good (albeit conflicting in some ways)advice for you. but stop. Stop dwelling on the past. or the what ifs...its done. and probably can be fixed. If there is one thing i have learned on this list is that it is truly rare to come up with a TRUE aggressive horse. And i think she would have been that way earlier on. NOT all of a sudden. so i do believe its the circumstance NOT THE HORSE. I don't think this horse is sour. I think this horse is really confused.

from your first post i kept thinking this horse is trying to tell you something, and you weren't listening. For the 3 weeks she's been there i bet she was showing you signs, talking to you, and with all conversations if one party isn't listening the other must talk a bit louder, do more to be heard and more to get your attention. And she has.... smart horse.

So onto the journey to find out what she is saying. Only you know what that is. Just slow it down. and you'll figure it out. Sounds like this horse is a gem. and you might not be on the same wave length right now. give it time. Listen. learn from her. and see what it is. maybe she is in some serious physical pain. some are more emotional than others. I know they miss partners. And i know they mourn. who knows.

Since you posted your a vetrinarian people might have assumed certain things you would know. and you might. or might not. I would think a vet has a a tougher skin than some. They see more in black and white. not in the karma of it all (my favorite word). they, think logically and not get as emotional as one without that training. This might be a factor to something you might be missing with the horse. might not. again, who knows.

Don't give it up yet.. I have a feeling that the rush of life. the eagerness of a child, and the fear of newness with the surroundings, all rolled up and culminated in bad decisions and bad timing (on the horses part) to create this situation.

I bet it will work out...

good luck.
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 1:42 am:

for the record, "Seabiscuit" the movie was extremely historically inaccurate...

Member:
corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:33 am:

Still a feel good movie if you can get by any inaccurate facts. Most of the time true stories are doctored to make a movie longer or create dialogue. Can't help but feel good by watching it anyway.
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:53 pm:

you're right, it was a good movie... i was just very irritated by the fact that it portrayed war admiral as this big horse whose owners were unwilling to make the race happen, when in fact war admiral was one of the smallest horses to ever race, and it was seabiscuits owners who made the big race difficult to achieve...
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 9:27 am:

Melissa, are you sure? The book was one of the absolute best I've ever read, and the author, Laura Hillenbrand (a well-known writer in the Thoroughbred world before she wrote Seabiscuit), researched it meticulously, using as many primary sources as possible. Though the movie did not hold a candle to the book, it was extremely factual and a wonderful portrayal not just of the horses, but of the times and the racing culture that existed. The book was published as non-fiction. The movie, though light on details and heavy on the more dramatic storyline, didn't stray too far from what Hillenbrand had written.
Member:
jmarie

Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 1:05 pm:

Debby, I know this thread has pretty much run its course, but as an often-foolish horse mom, I just wanted to say that one of the best lessons I taught my daughter was to know when she was over-faced. She had her first horse at 7--a mare who was basically lovely but sour--and learning to let a horse go and find one more suitable was a tough lesson. It served her well when she grew up and became an instructor, though it didn't save her from a broken jaw thanks to a school horse who simply lost his mind one day.

My daughter wasn't traumatized by any of her experiences, though she came close. Resilience is something we often don't give our kids enough credit for. I can tell you as a teacher with 25 years in the classroom AND a horse mom, that if the situation isn't blown out of proportion, most kids will recover nicely.

But the mare is a different story. What I'm envisioning is a horse who, handled daily by multiple people and thus kept not only on her toes but exercised to the point of being mellow, was suddenly put in a situation where she's alone most of the time and only handled and worked sporadically. The lack of work and constant handling (read: "endless retraining") would contribute greatly to whatever emotional problems the mare had that made her a bit witchy even as a school horse.

Which brings me back to the school horse and my daughter's broken jaw. That horse was a darling uncolored Paint, six years old, with the best attitude I'd ever seen. I, wuss that I am, rode him bareback up and down the driveway over ice and snow. The thing is, he'd been a ranch horse. He came from Texas to NJ via a performance horse sale, and in FL he worked the stockyards while he waited for his next home. He was fine here for seven months, working as an English beginner school horse. The kids loved him, and he was a joy to have around . . . until he went crazy. He's enjoying his life now with the dealer who sold him to us. He's doing what he loves to do--ranch work. He just wasn't happy with the prissy, fuss-budgety stuff he was being asked to do, and when he flipped out it was frightening. My point is that all of us are better off now that he's back doing his rightful job. Maybe it's a direction you might consider for your situation. There's a lot to be said for letting the horse dictate his career.

By the way, I love that your mare loves the farrier. My worst horses have been perfect gems with my shoer under them. I once joked that my mare--who can scare the pants off you with a glance--was going to have to be spoken to about the foolishness of marrying outside of one's species given her total devotion to one of my shoers.

As for Seabiscuit, you can cut through the nonsense by getting hold of the documentary that came out at the same time as the film. Most of the movie seems accurate according to the documentary, but I'm sure great liberty was taken with dramatic scenes like the "I'm not afraid of you" moment. Not that it couldn't happen that way--I've seen my shoer perform similar feats of derring-do--but I wouldn't use a movie as a guide to horse management. A lot of injuries were recorded right after The Horse Whisperer hit the theaters.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 1:23 pm:

War Admiral was a hair over 15.2H.
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 2:26 pm:

Joanne, if you're referring to the "American Experience" PBS documentary on Seabiscuit, it relied heavily on Hillenbrand's research/book. The movie was simply a truncated Hollywood version of the book that stretched our imaginations (as well as War Admiral's stature, apparently) and left us feeling good, but I wouldn't say it was extremely inaccurate, more that it played up the obvious dramatic pieces of the story that existed (and there were plenty). My question was not so much size as the comment about the owners. Both of them were shooting for ideal conditions for their horse...both wanted it...it was just a matter of finding the venue they could both live with. Sorry to have gotten away from the main thread of this post.

Thank you Sara for the size info. The movie made WA out to be the size of a medieval war horse! (And I've also seen plenty of 15.2 TBs running at our local track.)
Member:
jmarie

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 10:27 am:

Ha! I didn't know that about the documentary, Terri. Thanks for clarifying.
New Member:
dyates

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 10:56 pm:

Hello everyone,
I just wanted to post an update. All is going well. My daughter is no longer "terrified". Her natural stick-to-itiveness and enthusiasm for horses kicked in. Lady is back to being well-behaved and pleasant. I read all of your posts with great interest and they were very helpful. Thank you again for all the help.
Sincerely,
Debby
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 6:45 am:

Great news Deborah, can you explain what you learned about the mare and what you did to turn things around?
DrO
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 9:24 am:

Great news, Debby! We'd love to hear the details. I'm really happy for your daughter.
Terri
Member:
boomer

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 2:17 pm:

Great news Debby, be careful though, it seems like a quick turn around make sure whatever happened sticks..
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

Debby, it sounds like your daughter got the "horse gene" and nothing will stop her. Good for both of you!
Hope things continue to go well! Just keep safe and watch out for relapses.
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