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  Discussion on Mare rears up while cinching saddle
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New Member:
Bettyjo

Posted on Sunday, Oct 13, 2002 - 10:12 am:

I have just purchased an 8 year old quarter horse mare. She has not been rode alot, mostly she was a broodmare. She does not like the saddle at all. You have to cinch it slowly and she paces and paws and rears up. We had a bad experience with her over the weekend were the lead rope snap broke sending her down on her behind and when she got up she took off and ended up bucking and kicking with the saddle. The saddle was not tightly cinched and she ended up with it upside down on her belly. She finally stopped in a corn field because her hind foot was caught in the stirrup. Other than some bad scraps and a swollen muscle on her leg, she seems okay. But now what do I do? I have rode her a few times prior to purchasing her, and it has been a problem from the start. Once she is tacked up, she seems to do okay. She will rear sometimes while you are mounting her, which is not good, she has about knocked me out before. I don't know how to approach this problem. Could there be a medical reason for this???
She is over all a nice animal, and I have a son who will be riding her too and want to make it safe for all of us.
Any ideas???
Member:
Amara

Posted on Sunday, Oct 13, 2002 - 11:41 am:

Hi there
it IS possible that there is a medical reason for this behavior, but considering that she gets better once fully tacked up and is rideable, this seems unlikely.. probably some bad experiences in her past caused her to have very little pressure tolerance for the saddling prcedure...and from what you've posted, girthing in particular..
you can try to use a basic conditioned response system to do a "quick fix" of the problem... a reward system - give her something good to eat while she's being girthed.. but be warned, this kind of stuff generally needs to be repeated every so often, as it is only a conditioned response, not a true behavioral change...
if you want a true behavioral change - which will make her the most safe for you and your son in the long term, then going back to the basics is the key... find yourself a really good round pen and someone who is truly knowledgeable about making behavioral changes in horses - NOT conditioned response changes... you will have to go back to the very basics, but in the end you get a horse you never dreamed you might get..

good luck
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 14, 2002 - 9:59 am:

Hello Lisa,
Considering your stated goals and without knowing anything about your skills, perhaps another horse would be the best choice at this time. As Melissa sugggsts I think some professional help with this horse is in order but even so it may be many months before this horse becomes a dependable mount.

Melissa, I am a little confused by your terminology and your meaning when you say a conditioned response is not a true behavorial change and how this may differ from round pen training which also leans heavily on conditioned responses. One type of training can lead to other types of learning including habituation and desensitization. With truly adverse events conditioned responses often do require reinforcement but when the desired behavior is not truly associated with a adverse stimulus I don't think that conditioning exercises need constant reinforcement once habituation and desensitization have taken hold.

On the other hand if you are saying there is no substitue for teaching a horse to stand tied and lots of practice in learning his cues and proper responses you have no disagreement with me.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Oct 14, 2002 - 10:51 am:

I agree with the above posts. This horse needs more basics and needs to trust you. Professional help is probably vital right now in order to get you and your horse on the right track. Then it will just take time and patience.

I have to say, however, that I know one horse in particular that reared when asked to go forward under saddle..His owner is under instruction with a certified trainer and is taking an unbelievable amount of time and has an incredible amount of patience with this horse, and she is definately making progress, albeit slowly. She has been able to ride him bareback, but it's taken her 3 months to get back in the saddle with him.

My two cents.

Member:
Alden

Posted on Monday, Oct 14, 2002 - 5:09 pm:

Lisa, all of the above and more. It is entirely possible the mare is hurt, or has been hurt, in the girth area. My Foxtrotter mare just had some sore muscles in this area. I was able to massage and stretch them out in about a week, but I caught it very early. One day I had just started to snug the cinch and she reached around and took a bite at me; very not like her. I got some help from a friend that is a massage therapist and we worked it out. He has two horses on his ranch right now like yours, they are fine mounts after you get a saddle on and tightened; but very dangerous to saddle.

I would have a vet check her and someone evaluate her for sore muscles (could be the vet if they do that or a person trained in massage). Only after there is no pain can she be re-trained, it will take some time I suspect.

Good luck,
Alden

Member:
Amara

Posted on Monday, Oct 14, 2002 - 7:11 pm:

HI Dr.O
i think the confusing bit in what i'm saying comes from the fact that i find a majority of round pen training to be INCORRECT conditioned response training... anad the problem with conditioned response training, is that at some point, you always have to go back to the reward system... if you leave it alone long enough, the horse will eventually "change" back to the way it was...maybe it wont get so bad, but it will never stay "as good" once the reward stimuli is taken away consistently (i.e. once we stop giving treats -for a long enough period of time -)... and if we were to not work that horse for a long period of time, whenbrought back to work, those same undesirable responses would be there - again, possibly not as bad as before, but still there.. correct round pen training (i.e. monty roberts, and other horsemen who seek to understand and make deep psychological changes within the horse).. will make changes that affect the whole horse psyche, and as such, youwont need to condition response a certain thing, because the horse will see YOU differently, and accept all that you do - or make him do... (i.e. its not about training a horse to accept a girth, and then accept a saddle, and then the bridle, and then a mailbox, etc... but to teach the horse to accept you (as the human).. and therefore the whole human environment... what we put into that environment is immaterial.. we've already created a deep psychological change into teh horse, and all else becomes "moot"..)..

this may seem a little deep and far fetched.. but after having done traditional training - with and without a roundpen, and am now doing psycholigcal changes with my horse (and subsequently myself to allow my horse to see me differently), there is a world of difference between the two..
Member:
Bettyjo

Posted on Monday, Oct 14, 2002 - 10:20 pm:

Boy, now you all have me nervous! Yicks! But good news is I will not give up on this mare. I will try some ground work with her. I do not have a round pen. What should I be concentrating on?
Going back to the basic's and gaining her trust I think is very important right now. I am wondering if this horse has been treated roughly and had a bad experience in the past. I will give her some more time.
Just to add to my original story the mare was also in heat with the bucking event took place. I released this after my posting. She has been recently taken from her baby and we brought her to our farm. She has been hear almost 2 weeks. We have a 10 year old gelding and a 55 plus year old mule. The mare gets along good with the gelding, but the mule likes her alot more than she cares for him.
Thank you all for your imput. I will consider consulting a expert. I hope that this is not necessary, but time will tell!
I will keep you posted of her progress.
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 12:09 pm:

This may sound simple minded, but are you sure your saddle fits her and is in the proper place on her back? Mares tend to be a bit pickier about tack than geldings (I know a sweeping generalization, but often true). Many people place a saddle too far forward and the tree pinches the horse's shoulder. A saddle can also have a damaged tree that unless you know where to look for the damage, you'll think it is aok.

If you saddle is a western style, examine the bottom very carefully - I've seen one with a nail sticking out and poking the horse in the back!!!

Assuming your saddle is fine for her and in its proper place on the back, cinch very carefully and slowly. A small bit at a time, by 1)cinch lightly, 2) give bit of carrot, 3)walk forward a few steps and repeat many times. When you think it is okay, stretch her forelegs a bit on each side to smooth out the skin/hair in the cinch.

Finally, this is where I'd probably want to lightly lunge the horse, to help her mind transition from play to work. (If you had a round pen it would be better/easier.) So, you will need a lunge line, a lunge whip and preferably a lunging cavasson, but if you don't have one a closely fitted halter over the bridle is ok. Make sure the reins are off, or carefully knotted and clipped up in the cavasson so they can't go over her head. Then, ask a helper to lead her on the perimeter of the circle while you use a walk cue. For up transitions use a more abrupt voice that ends higher. For down transitions use a dragged out voice that ends on a low note. (Horses pick up tones rather than words faster.) With some practice and help, you can hopefully get her lunging at walk/trot and responding to your chosen voice cues. If she bucks on the lunge, say no and make the circle smaller by shortening the lunge line and sending her forward (always forward) with a touch of the lunge whip and a repeat of your forward voice cue.

When she is lunging quietly and not bucking, it may be the time to ride a bit at a walk and then be done.

Think lots of very small steps, building on good behavior over time and be patient. Don't expect quick miracles. As she becomes more trustworthy, you can do a bit more under saddle or begin a bit of riding on the trails. Think in terms of months and not days for a re-do project.

However, I HIGHLY recommend you work, at a minimum, under the tutelage of a proper instuctor or put the horse in training with a kind but knowledgeable trainer who can then transfer the necessary information to you.

Bottom line is you need to look out for your safety and your child's safety. Trying to "get by" and avoiding the investment to make the horse safe may result in a serious accident.

Good luck.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

Hello Melissa,
I have attended Monty's "Joining Up" seminar and they are good, run a search on this as we have discussed them before. Though Lisa's horse may benefit from such techniques, I think Monty's basically addressing the teaching of unlearned horses while above we are trying to extinquish or "unlearn" a dangerous behavior. A dangerous behavior that could be developed even in a "joined up" horse.

All of life is filled with conditioned responses, even "Joining Up" is a conditioned response. As long as the horse runs away he receives a negative stimulus: the continued pushing. When he relents he receives a positive stimulus, an acceptance stance. I think this method takes advantage of a a technique, either instinctual or learned early in life, that horses use to establish herd dominance patterns. This may be the basic behavorial change you talk about but this behavior too needs reinforcement or else the horse forgets or attempts to rise the dominance ladder: no horse is ever well broke with a single lesson no matter how profound the change.

Perhaps I am nit-picking here, I just wanted to clarify the fact that conditioned responses should not be considered just "quick fixes",it is a fact that horses learn continuously by conditioned responses. They are a valuable tool in the armentum of horse training tools and which tool to pick depends on many factors.

Lisa, my post was meant to give you pause and think about the dangers of working around such a horse and to reflect on whether this meets your goals. Your first post suggests otherwise.
DrO
Member:
Amara

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 3:32 pm:

Hi there Dr.O
not meaning to cause a ruckus here..*LOL*

a properly "joined up" horse would never begin a dangerous habit such as what Lisa has been dealing with.. an improperly joined up horse, yes, then thatcould easily happen, but then youwouldnt be "joined up" at all..(i dont do monty
s "join up" btw)...(and the moving of the horse around the roundpen to eventually get him to face up is an instinctual thing.. watch any horse getting chased by something (usually another horse).. when the pressure is let up, the horse will instinctually turn and face that sudden vacuum of pressure... )
you can make HUGE changes in your horse in just one session, as long as the human knows how to interact with that horse at all times... a round pen session does no good if you then allow the horse to "walk all over you" -and this is as simple as improperly leading, feeding, etc... this is the "reinforcement", because you (when doing things properly) are reinforcing in the horse's mind where you are on the ladder.. once you're a leader he can respect and understand, well, them, simply put, you can do anything you want to him..(to get all the way there does take more than one session though!!!)
horse's dont need repeated reinforcement to learn - put a bucket of grain in the aisle and let them get to it.. the next day they'll try to go there... learned response in one try.. and they'll remember that same thing days, even weeks or beyond later, when the same scenario is allowed (w/or w/o the grain actually being there!).. this is why to me conditioned response can be faulty.. if horse's can learn in one try, why do we have to over and over and over try to change and fix something?... conditioned response DOES have its place, i just dont like to see it being used in a place where the horse is obviousl so bothered by something if the conditioned response training fails/is not reinforced at the correct times, a dangerous result can happen..

Lisa, good luck with your mare... from the further infomation you've given us, she's got "a lot of things on her mind", and the pressure of riding may well be too much to deal with right now.. give her some more time to get to know you, do some good training, and hopefully you'll have a real nice safe horse for you in the future..
Member:
Alden

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 10:27 pm:

Melissa,

To say a well trained, respectfull or "joined up" (doesn't matter how you say it) horse can not be dangerous or react in a unsafe manner is REALLY walking thin ice! A simple slip and fall on a stirrup would leave this mare with sore ribs making most any horse cinchy. Even simpler, the cinch could be too short and digging into her ribs; that can make the most respectful horse into a world class rodeo bronc.

Lisa, can you move the mare's parts easily. Will she move her hip or shoulder willingly when cued? Will she back up willingly and energeticlly without you pushing? If not, some basic ground work is in order.

And I still say check her carefully for any soreness, it sounds simple but is often overlooked.
Just my two (more) cents worth.

Good luck


Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 17, 2002 - 11:41 am:

I agree Alden. I have seen properly trained older respectful horses turn unridable for no reason we could discern after months of examination, testing, and attempts at retraining. Though uncommon it is a remarkable thing to see. You can argue it is undiscovered pain, brain tumors, or undiscovered training flaws but these are conjectured and did not seem to be a part of the problem.
DrO
Member:
Barnbrat

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 10:55 am:

Dear Lisa, Horses are creatures of habbit and wish to have a leader! If you are a kind, fair leader and work on a daily basis to reinforce good behaviour and not settle for the slightest bad behaviour but correct it. This I mean in EVERYTHING you do with the horse. Haltering, tying, cinching, mounting, grooming etc. You get my drift. It will take time but if done right the horse does learn to look to you for comfort as long as you make him comfortable. You can be a team and your son can be safe if taught the same basic ritual. I agree so much with Dr. O. and Alden!!! I am a 4-H leader here in Utah and have seen tack problems that would scare a ghost! Once those problems are fixed and the horse is more comfortable it is so amazing how much better the kid and horse get along! I'm with Dr. O. though...Do this right on a ritualistic basis or let that horse go to someone who will! You will get hurt. Even the best trained horses can really be a problem if you don't pay attention to their needs and comfort. Put yourself in their shoes...Would you want to wear something that pinches the heck out of you, or is way too tight? Heck no! Be your horses best friend by putting his comfort and well being first and you can't go wrong! Good, Good luck and May the horse be with you!!!
Member:
Bettyjo

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 7:41 am:

Hello all, I have been working with my mare and so far all I have gained is her trust, and it is still not a total trust. She will let me groom her, pick her feet, remove the halter, lead, lunge, all with no problems. I can touch her anywhere except for where the cinch goes, she still doesn't like that. Shg doesn't get defencive about it, she will turn and look at me then step away from the pressure.
Her latest thing is she wants nothing to do with the bridle. She gets all up set if it is just hanging close to her. I am wondering if she is crazy! Not really, but I think she is testing me. Last week she would willing take the bridle. I have been advised to take a strong hand with her, and tie her head down, (previous owner has told me she does not like to be tied down)and after she throws a fit, then sack her out using a blanket. I have not tryed this strong arm approach so far, but I think she is walking all over me! Once again, I do not want to be hurt, but I think it is time for me to show her that I am the boss....hopefully she will be receptive of this. I feel I must do this now, winter time is upon us and I don't want to feed a mare all winter that I am not going to be able to work with in the spring. I have no indoor arena to work in. i know to some this may sound cold, but if she is not going to work out for me, I need to sale and move on.
I will update with later,
Thanks Lisa
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 9:22 am:

I agree with DrO, given your goals maybe another horse will suit your needs better. She sounds very green, and the rearing and bucking are pretty bad habits. It will probably take quite a long time with a professional trainer to turn her into a dependable riding horse. Think about your goals and whether you have the skills and interest to undertake that. I don't think it's cold at all to sell a horse that's not a good fit for you -- it's an opportunity for you to find a much better match, and place that mare in the right home.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 9:28 am:

Lisa, Please sell her before you try the strong arm stuff. There are better ways. Follow your heart on this. I do not believe the horse is hopeless. Find a good home for her if you feel at the end of your rope, or determine to find a natural horsemanship-type trainer to work with you and your horse on a regular basis.
Holly
Member:
Barnbrat

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Lisa, Horses that have been "Abused" Or forced! Take alot of time and conditioning. They have a mind of their own and remember like an elephant. My experience is mainly with Arabians but a good horse is a good horse. I wish I could tell you the times Iv'e had to help a horse with people problems. DO NOT HOG TIE that horse PLEASE! I very much agree with Holly! Sometimes we just don't "MESH" with certain horses just as we sometimes don't "MESH" with certain people! If you don't find someone who can stand back and see if there is hope for you two OR three! Then sell her to someone who can love her and get along with her and you can find a horse with a personality more suited to your needs! I'm not suggesting you give up I'm suggesting you be smart!!! Good luck girl and be strong! You will know the best thing to do!
Member:
Amara

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 11:53 am:

Lisa,
your horse isnt crazy, she just has no pressure tolerance for the ideas of saddles/cinches, and now, even bridling..
strong arming is absolutely the wrong approach here, and i'm sure in your heart you know that.. being a leader is the best thing, but you dont get to be a leader by roughing up your horse (would you trust someone who did this to you?.. would you willingly follow them or let them do stuff with you?)
there IS a place for being strong with your horse - but ONLY when done correctly by knowledgeable people - and it has nothing to do with tying their heads and sacking them out... at best, you create a coped up horse who may well give in, but will resent everything about you, and never be the kind of horse you would like her to be.. and at worst she'll blow-either during the process, injuring herself and maybe yourself, -or she'll blow at some point after you've sacked her out, when you're least expecting it - with the same results...

if you want something safe for you and your son, and dont want to change your style, please sell this mare, and have a professional help you find a horse that is more suited for you...
i'm sure with someone who has the energy and knowledge, this mare could be a nice horse... but that may well be many many months down the road..

good luck
Member:
Alden

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 10:18 pm:

Lisa, there are times for restraint, but this isn't it. While it is true that you need to establish your dominance in this partnership "strong arm" methods are not safe or the most effective. Please take no offence at this, but you can not get the skills needed to deal with this horse here, by book, or video (IMHO well... maybe not always so H!)!

I have been hurt in a similar situation that took two operations and years to recover from, I can assure you that you don't want to go this route. Then I sought a proffesional trainer to get me and my horse started right. He gave me the right tools, so that I have done much of the training myself, but it wouldn't have happened with out him. I've always thought I could learn most anything from a book, but not horse training. There is a lot of trial and error here and the trainer removed much of the error that would have just resulted in a confused horse (and owner!).

Again IMHO, get someone who starts horses(not breaks them)and learn that way (much less painfull).

Alden

Member:
Bettyjo

Posted on Sunday, Oct 27, 2002 - 9:25 am:

Hello, again. I have taken all responses in consideration and I have not stong armed this mare. But I have been using a nose chain on her and in just a few days time the rearing up has stopped. I don't know if this will be permanant, but I am pleased. A few good yanks on the lead rope has been effective. I did sack her out and will continue to do so for a few more days. She has also let me bridle her. I know these are only baby steps and we are far from from saddling her, but my heart tells me she can be a good mare for me and my family. I still am undecided on if I will keep her, the next few weeks will tell. I am not a trainer, or have experience in certain bad behavior. But I have been around horses most of my life and I have seen stong arm approaches that have broke the horse of certain problems......but I do not want to go there!
Thank you all for your input. I will update you with our progress.
Thanks, Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 27, 2002 - 5:42 pm:

That is very good Lisa, though my original concerns remain, you have decided that the risk is worth it. If you would like to read more about the use of a chain shank, see » Training Horses » Training the Mind of Your Horse » Halter Training and Tieing Horses.
DrO
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