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  Discussion on Wants quiet feet when posting trot
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Member:
Petsu

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 10:45 am:

Can anyone give me tips or hints on how to keep my feet less active while posting trot?
Member:
Westks

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 11:46 am:

The answer is in leg strength, the best way to increase that is to ride and post bareback. Keeping your lower leg and heel as still as possible. Or use bucking machine riding no hands and using back, abs and leg muscles to stay in perfect postion, of course on a lower level at first. You need machine and operator for that though.
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 3:35 pm:

I would agree with Janette and add:

Your leg will stop moving if you can ensure that your heels are down, your weight is through your heels, and your knees are not pinching. A pinching knee will cause an active leg every time :-)

Here is a visualization I've used myself, and with students:

When on your horse, visualize yourself as a very very tall tree, with the dirt at your hips, and your legs as the roots. In order to stay upright, the tips of your roots (your heels) have to go very very very far down into the ground. Elongate your spine (like the tree) and stretch both upwards and downwards. Remember that if you encounter resistance anywhere along your leg, it will redirect the root outwards against the resistance, instead of down. (So if you pinch your knee, the root will start growing out sideways from the tree, instead of down into the deep earth). Sink down down down into the earth at the heel. Wrap around your horse and feel the warmth of your horse at the back of your calf.

Do you have an instructor or someone that can help you by longeing you while you do this exercise?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 3:44 pm:

Sorry to barge in here, I cannot help you, however Bevin's visualization is great!

I need help with this as well. Are there any exercises you know of that will help while off the horse?? My heels don't seem to stretch down nearly as far as they should!

Member:
Kimlking

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 4:08 pm:

Hi Debra--Feel the weight of your legs on the balls of your feet in the stirrups. Roll your thighs inward so that your knees come into firm contact with your saddle. This is important because you actually want to rise to the trot from your knees, not from your feet (Your lower legs will then rotate away from your horse's side--a good thing, because you will give fewer or no confusing accidental leg cues.) When you rise, do it by bringing your hips up and forward, NOT by just opening and closing your knee joints. This takes practice and, as Janette said, strength.

You can develop the strength you need on the ground--literally--as well as get a feel for the rhythm and feel of a properly posted trot: On your knees, sitting on (or back toward) your heels, "stand" up straight (still on your knees) so that your hip joints are extended (open)and then sit back again so that your hip joints are flexed (closed). You can also try standing, in a position as though you are sitting on your horse, on a stair step (holding on to the railing for balance): feet apart, heels hanging down off the step, knees slightly bent--and rise to an imaginary trot, opening and closing your hip joint. Your weight is (obviously) on the balls of your feet, and your feet can't move, because you are standing on them. You will have to use the muscles that need strengthening.

On your horse, visualize your knees as hinges being held in place by an imaginary pole that goes right through your horse from side to side. Your knees can't move, your weight is in your heels, resting firmly on the balls of your feet in your stirrups. Your lower legs don't have to move at all as you rise and sit because your hip joints are doing all the work, so concentrate on keeping them still. And, MAJOR bonus, your upper body is now behaving properly too. If you open and close your knee joints, without using your hip joints properly, to post a trot, not only do your lower legs move all around, but also your entire torso is shoved forward every time you go up. Opening and closing your hip joints allows you to keep your torso (and hands) steady, relative to your horse. Of course, your knee joints open and close too, but only the long bones of your thighs move when they do--just like a door hinge: only the door moves, not the whole house. Your lower legs can stay quiet and still, right where you want them.

Be patient as your muscles develop, keep practicing, and you will see, over time, that your lower legs become quieter and quieter.
Member:
Kimlking

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 4:27 pm:

Bevin--I like your visualization too. Your post and mine together may seem confusing to Debra though, so I want to clarify: I am not recommending any kind of pinching with the knees--just a solid anchoring at the knees' point of contact with the saddle, as a reference point. Weight is of course in the heels, not in the knees. But I do like contact with the knees, and not with the lower leg. Maybe this is because my Walker-Arab gelding is EXTREMELY sensitive to all cues, and I have had to learn to keep my leg off of him altogether until I wish to give him a very light, specific cue. A horse like this will make one very aware of where her legs are and what they are doing.

Perhaps if the stillness of my lower leg were really well established, I could allow the back of my calf to rest on my horse, if I wanted to. I have always believed, though, that constant leg contact deadens the horse's sides, teaching him to ignore the leg unless some strong cue is given. Am I mistaken?
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 5:33 pm:

I agree - and I don't think they are actually conflicting, but they could be confusing :-)

Posting is a pivoting at the knee, so *contact* with the knee is desired, but not pinching.

Regarding contact with the leg - I have always believed (and have been taught) that constant contact is desired to bring the horse forward into the bit (now keep in mind, I come from a dressage/x-country and showjumping background - I'm not certain people teach this in other disciplines). It should be a "light hug" kind of contact, so that when an aid is given, it does not need to be strong, but rather just a slightly increased pressure. This also ensures the horse does not raise their head in surprise (just as a light constant contact with the rein is desired, instead of no contact, and then a sudden pull). I've ridden all manner of horses in this way, and I think it's a matter of the horse involved too - I've ridden some very sensitive Arabs, and they do certainly appreciate very very light contact!!

Aileen:
Another good exercise that I've used (and used to teach "non-horsey" people how to post off the horse...) is to stand up against a countertop with your knees touching the counter (in a bent position) with your legs about "horse-width" apart. At that point, bring your pelvis up and forward and back down (try not to do it where anyone can see you - they'll think you're insane). Do this until your thighs are KILLING you :-) Repeat every other day until you can do this consistently for 10 minutes (the horse helps you - so this will actually make you be able to post LONGER :-)

Okay - now, to move that into keeping your heels down while you're posting, take that same motion, and if you're brave enough, find a stairwell (hopefully with a railing on at least one side). Holding the railing with at least one hand, get into the same position, but put the stair at the ball of your foot and stretch DOWN DOWN DOWN into your heels. Feel that stretch. Practice that for a good few days - in fact, I practice that ANY time I'm near a stair or a rock or anything (and people DO think I'm insane :-)

Once you feel more comfortable with that - do the posting exercise IN the stairwell with your heels down. Your heels can do nothing more but stretch further down because, well, you're in the stairwell and there's nothing below them. If you have a sympathetic friend/husband/brother/daughter/onlooker you can have them stand behind you and watch your heels, ensuring that they stay down.

As a side note, big tall flights of stairs are not recommended :o)
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 5:35 pm:

I'm an idiot - I'm sorry Kim - you did add about the stairs :-) I didn't see that until I posted mine :-)
Member:
Petsu

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 15, 2002 - 5:37 pm:

Wow! What great information and visualizations . Thanks so much . I will try those exercises right now, and tomorrow at lesson. I have been lessoning for a few years with a wonderful instructor, but I think this is a new bad habit I have developed after trying to lighten my seat. It is as if when I work on one thing another aspect of my riding suffers. duh Sometimes I wonder if I can walk and chew gum at the same time. HA So if you want to tackle the light seat next feel free I am open to suggestions.
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 9:32 am:

I suspect that you are trying to lighten your seat by rising up out of your saddle and tilting your pelvis forward (am I way off? without seeing you it's difficult!)

What you actually want to develop is a following seat. I suspect you may have had an "overly driving seat" which can be caused by a stiff back.

How frequently do you ride?

Exercises to develop a following seat on the horse:
Start without stirrups at a slow gait (preferably longed, but you can do it without the longe line too - it just takes a little more concentration). Have your horse walk and extend your legs down in a relaxed position. Your heels should still be down, but don't worry so much about keeping your leg tight and strong, you should be more concerned with balance at this point. Rotate your pelvis forward *slightly* until you feel your weight settled between your seat bones and your pubic bone. You should not be sitting back on your derriere as you would in a chair, nor way forward on your pubic bone (oww!) but instead use those bones as a tripod to support your body in an upright position. Relax your shoulders down.

Now, as you do this, you should start to feel through your seat the movement of the horse. Loosen up your lower back until you can feel your hips sway (sashay!) with the walk of the horse. Soften your back while keeping it stretched out (think of a cat stretching out - it's straight, but limber). This will allow you to follow the horses movements rather than driving them or missing them.

If you are on a longe (with a qualified person), you can do this with your eyes closed and that will further help you to follow your horses movements.

Once you have mastered the walk, then you can proceed to the sitting trot. Notice how when you tense up you bounce harder (pinching at the knee) or if you sit too far back to compensate your horse reacts by going a tad faster (driving your seat). Remember to keep your weight on that tripod of seat bones. You really have to keep your back flexible to absorb the impact of each stride (another visualization that helps me here is picturing a blade of seaweed (the long kind) flowing in the sea - it's strong and supported upright by the sea, but flexible enough to move with the currents).

When you start to get tired, you will tense up and start to bounce (I'm sure you know this, but I feel the need to tell you - just in case). Stop at this point, go back to the walk, or end the lesson (whichever is appropriate).

Off the horse:

Your back most likely needs to be more flexible - this is understandable particularly if you are an adult rider :-) I was always stiff, even as a kid! Going along with the back being more flexible the hamstrings or backs of the thighs ALSO need to be stretched out. If they are tight, the back also will not be able to move properly.

Exercises to help:
Lay flat on your back in a doorway with your hips slightly behind the door toward your head (make sure there's lots of room in this doorway). Put your right leg up on the wall in the doorway - right up where the moulding would be (or 3-4 inches away from the door opening). Bring your hips into the doorway slowly (scootch!) until you can feel the stretch of your hamstrings. Rest and continue to stretch until that no longer feels tight - alternate slowly between pointing your toe and flexing your foot to get the best stretch. If you have one, a yoga strap or a large belt is helpful to loop that over the ball of your foot and use that to help gently pull your foot back (this is great for Aileen's heels down issue too!). Move further and further into the doorway as you stretch more and more and feel limber. Do this often (and notice how good you feel :-)

Another exercise that's good for the spine comes from yoga. Kneel on the floor (in a place where you have plenty of space - with a mat or towel if it's not carpeted) with your seat resting on your heels and your weight distributed evenly over your hips and seatbones. Sit tall (remember the tree - it works here too) and stretch your spine up through your head toward the ceiling, and down through your seatbones toward the floor. Have your arms by your sides with your fingers resting on the floor (or if you are short armed, like me, your fingertips will barely rest on the floor :-) Raise your arms, palms down, up slowly to shoulder height. Continue to stretch upward and downward, and now, as you hold your arms out to the sides for a few moments, stretch out through each hand's fingers. Then flip your hands over, palms to the sky, and raise your arms the rest of the way up until you can clasp them over your head. Stretch up very very tall. Then unclasp your fingers, and palms down bring your arms straight down slowly until you are touching the floor. Picture yourself like one of those fancy corkscrews (with the arms) as your arms go down, your spine lengthens both ways, up and down.

Do this 5 times.

Then on the 6th time, after you've brought your arms back down, bend your body forward at the with your arms back (picture a line coming from the top of your head drawing a nice arch as you bend forward) until your forehead touches the carpet. Rest there, feeling the stretch in your back.

As you get more flexible, these stretches will get easier and easier, and you should be able to continue to find harder stretches for your back :-)

Remember, a strong, straight back does not equal a stiff one!

If any of this doesn't make sense to you, or I can help you in any other way, just let me know!
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 11:31 am:

I should also add - you need to make sure that your hips and your shoulders are disconnected. That is - your shoulders need to stay straight and all of the motion needs to come from your mid-lower back - picture a BIG BIG swivel joint in around your navel :-)
Member:
Petsu

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 5:53 pm:

Bevin, You are so RIGHT! I am driving with my seat!!! I just realized that! Well since my lesson was rained out today, I will concentrate on the things you said tomorrow in the indoor on a different horse (actually a MULE). Boston is very sensitive to leg aids I might add , so thanks again for your great tips. I think I am very flexiable in the back and go with the horse at walk , but drive too much at the trot. I ride above the saddle sometimes because I don't want to slam down on his back, but with your discription of (following the horse) will help with that. I ride out 2 a week and lesson 1 a week. I ride more often if I can get someone to go with. Otherwise we ride out alone :-(
I see you are from Penna. E-mail me.
I will try some of your exercises tonight at the gym, I work out three times a week to keep in shape to ride.
Member:
Kimlking

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 7:57 pm:

The mechanics of our horses's movements can seem very dry and boring, but if we can visualize what's going on underneath us we can follow the movement better, which is so key to riding well. If our seats--our butts and hips-- don't follow the alternating down-and-up movement of our horses' hindquarters at the trot, we bounce. The more we bounce, the stiffer our horses become, tensing their back muscles to protect themselves from our repeated slamming--which causes a stiffer trot, even harder to sit, causing us to bounce even harder. Things go from bad to worse. We can't have light, independent hands, and anyway, the horse is braced against pain, not relaxed and supple and receptive to our aids.

I've thought a lot about this over the years--I hope the following helps.

When our horses trot, we should think of their hindquarters as alternately DrOpping away, left, right, left, right, as they take their (and our) weight first on one diagonal pair of legs and then on the other--and not as alternately rising. This is actually what is happening anyway, just as when your horse is standing square, and then cocks one hind leg to rest it, taking all of that leg's weight on the other one. The cocked-leg side DrOps, and if you notice, so does your seat on that side if you're sitting on him. At the trot, the hind legs are similarly unweighted, only it happens alternately, rhythmically, and quickly--which makes it harder to follow the movement. But it is the same movement, and we can learn to follow it more easily if we think of the movement as down-and-up, not up-and-down. So instead of being roughly tossed up by the "up," we can learn to smoothly slide down with the "down," staying right with our horse and causing him--and ourselves--no discomfort.

The key is being able to move our hips freely, independently of our upper bodies. All of Bevin's suggestions should help a lot with this. Here are some more thoughts:

At one time, I was studying belly-dancing at the same time that I was learning dressage. I was deeply impressed with how transferable my belly-dancing skills were to my riding--all that hip movement with no shoulder or head movement allowed. I began to think a lot about how people move naturally. We've probably all seen pictures of indigenous women carrying huge loads balanced on their heads--how do they do it, so that their upper bodies stay level and the load isn't jarred? Their knees bend and their hips alternately DrOp, and that's exactly what a horse does at a trot. You know how horses' heads nod when they walk, and how they reach forward in rhythm with the stride when they canter, but their heads and necks remain still and steady, relative to their bodies, when they trot? Try walking with something heavy on your head and you will very quickly discover what you have to do with your hips to steady your load: you DrOp one hip as you bend that leg and pick it up to move it forward. The opposite hip rises, and your spine stays steady. So does your horse's spine stay steady at the trot--that's why his head doesn't bounce up and down. That's why it's even possible to sit a trot at all: it's not that we have to learn to bounce with the horse. We have to learn to not-bounce with the horse, by DrOpping our hips alternately, in synchronization with his alternately DrOpping hips, so our spines can stay steady, as his does.

I'm pretty positive that's what Bevin means when she says "Sashay!" It's just what it feels like--if you were walking, your hips would be swaying.

Just think "down...down...down...down" as you allow your seat bones to follow the alternating falling-away of your horse's right and left hindquarters. Visualize your seat and inner thighs as a smooth upside-down "U" shape, hinged on your spine, and your horse's barrel as fitting perfectly inside it. The seat-and-legs "U" can easily DrOp first on one side, then on the other--"down...down...down...down..." as the horse's barrel rolls gently from side to side in rhythm with his alternately DrOpping hindquarters. I remember working at this for the first time, years ago, and suddenly getting a few strides going right. What a thrill! and then of course I lost the rhythm--and you probably will, too: just break down to a walk for a few strides to relax and regroup, then gently transition up to an easy trot and try again. It's great if you can practice on a made horse with a nice trot--you'll "get it" sooner. But even if it takes a while, keep practicing. You will find that the better your seat, the nicer your horse's trot will become. You will both LOVE your new soft, following seat.
Member:
Aeowen

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2002 - 8:02 pm:

Excellent Kim! That is indeed exactly what I meant! And how funny that you mention bellydancing - I bellydance as well! I got interested in bellydancing at the birth of my second child, and I continue to practice now!
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Oct 17, 2002 - 11:06 am:

Debra, thanks for starting this thread!! This is GREAT info!!:-)

So....do I need to take up belly dancing to be a wonderful rider???(;)

This is great...I don't ride much in the winter (he'll be in training) so to have exercises I can do off his back is just great!!!

You guys are fabulous!!! Thanks so much!!
Member:
Petsu

Posted on Thursday, Oct 17, 2002 - 6:18 pm:

Thanks Bevin and Kim, I noticed an improvement already in my posting trot today. Your visualizations were easy to remember and the exercises reestablished the feel I needed in the saddle. Great Going :-) HA
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 6:02 pm:

LOL, I've had this problem for a loonnnngggg time!

Bringing this up again because it's a great thread :-)

Rode him today and when I would put my heels down trying to still my legs... he thought halt... so I'm doing something with my thighs, right? Do I need to loosen my hips more? They are pretty tight....

I have another lesson next week and I'm afraid I won't be able to afford another for a couple of months, so I'd love to get the leg thing at least "semi" solved so we can work on other things. Thanks!
Member:
dres

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 7:50 pm:

Aileen i did not read thru all the answers above.. you should have started your own thread! I will slap you later..
But are you legs quiet most all the time? Is your problem just in posting.. ? Quiet legs are not always a good thing, depending on the gait one is working in.... we can go into that down the road.. I think Sara asked about the difference in schools of thought about the '' quiet''' leg.. Anyway if posting is your issue.. have you sat up and trotted in 2 point to make sure your legs are under you? That can make all the difference in the world , leg position..
An exercise to do.. is trot in 2 point 1/2 the arena , sit and post till you feel your legs 'flopping' then go back to 2 point to get them legs back where they are suppose to be..
Muscle memory is not easy to break.. i struggle every day with a correct leg !~
Another issue can be your saddle.. a saddle can put your leg in the wrong position too.. So make sure you ask your Trainer.. BTW is her name..Susan R?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 8:17 pm:

Oh all right :-) Starting another thread, but bringing your answer with me :-)
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