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  Discussion on Off balanced horse
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Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 22, 2002 - 10:55 am:

I have an 11 yr old 16.2h thoroughbred gelding, Charlie, whom I bought in April 2002. He has the lip tattoo – but has never raced. His previous owner bought him in April 2001 for jumping – the owner before that had him for about a year – but wasn’t ridden much, except by the previous owner (who eventually bought him). I do not know what his life was prior to early 2000.

When Charlie was with his previous owner, he was diagnosed with DJD in his right front knee in Aug 2001 and to not jump anyore. He was given Cosequin daily and reduced to walk and trot exercise for about 3 months. (He is still on Cosequin and alsow gets 1 Tsp. Aspirin daily). I had an xray taken of his knee in April and the joint showed good improvement. He does not appear to be lame or unbalanced when riding, but he is somewhat bouncy in the seat, you feel it there. His previous farrier noted that he doesn’t put much pressure on his right front as his hoof is taller and the sole is a ˝-1” shorter in width than his other hooves. I moved to a new barn and have a new farrier and he noticed that his knee joint is higher on his right front than the left (I guess this all makes sense!)

Lately, when I have been trotting him, going clockwise, he is wonderful. But when I go counter-clockwise, he falls in, cuts corners, whips his ears back, kicks his back leg up and goes to a walk within a few strides. I try to use my left leg to move him back out and pull his head a little to the right so he isn’t leaning so much to the left – that’s when the ears go back. I wasn’t sure if he was just trying to tell me he had enough for the day, so I kept working him counter-clockwise for awhile (not fun). So, I went back to clockwise, thinking, if he is just ornery, he’ll be bad this way, too. Nope – back to his wonderful self. So, this leads me to think there is some pain going counter clockwise, or I am doing something wrong that makes him uncomfortable – or could he just be messing with me?

When I ask for the canter, he tends to “take off” and sometimes kick out. Eventually, he’ll slow down a bit. Is that his thoroughbred genes or training? I have been working with him to take the bit and be more collected – hoping this will help him (and he doesn’t like it!). Seeing he is unbalanced, the canter is rather off at times. I have started lunging him, but I’m not sure how to work him. Should I work more on his bad side? Or will that hurt him more (if it is pain)?

Would he have had the DJD problem for quite some time (many years vs. just a year), seeing his right hoof and right leg length is quite different from the others?
Will he ever put more pressure on his right front?
What can I do to get him more balanced?
Should my farrier put a pad on his left front to make him more balanced?

I have no interest in jumping (so it worked out for me to buy him when he was diagnosed last year.) I love this big guy and will do whatever I need to do and would appreciate any advice. Thanks!
Member:
Cartlett

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 22, 2002 - 1:08 pm:

Is he just as unbalanced when you lunge him? Or is it only see when he is riden?

Carol
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 22, 2002 - 1:25 pm:

I am not experienced enough to answer how he is lunging. I have just started learning how to do that! I do know that he sort of "takes off" and almost flies out of the circle when cantering. Sometimes he cross canters - he seemed to kick out - then he righted himself. Trotting he seems ok - both ways.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 7:29 am:

Annette,
If he was having pain in the front leg going to the left (counter clockwise) he would appear lame that way. The conformation you describe is not uncommon in sound horses and is caused by mild contracture of the DDF tendon resulting in a club foot, so by itself not significant. Your first step is to have the vet out to rule out lameness in this horse.
DrO
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 10:55 am:

Thanks for your response. When you say this is not uncommon - what isn't - his leg/knee length? He doesn't seem to be in pain in general - only around certain turns (on certain days!) - so I think he was just messing with me or just arthritis on a cold Sunday morning? Do you think he was born this way - longer right leg - the right leg never taking alot of pressure - thus the smaller hoof and higher knee joint on the right? No one has ever mentioned a club foot in regards to him. Another at the barn seems to think there is nothing wrong - he's just messing with me - which is very possible - but do their horses have this situation? No. I don't know anyone else who has a horse with DJD. The vet said he has moderate DJD. Is that more serious than I think? I don't know if I should just ignore his unevenness and assume it is attitude? I tend to think things will always be ok and he's fine (which is probably good) - but I don't want to be ignorant of his joint problem either.

Can you answer these questions?

Would he have had the DJD problem for quite some time (from birth or many years vs. just a year), seeing his right hoof and right leg length is quite different from the others?
Will he ever put more pressure on his right front?
What can I do to get him more balanced?
Should my farrier put a pad on his left front to make him more balanced?

Member:
Redwood

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 1:02 pm:

If this were my horse, I would find a vet and massage therapist that would work together and have them examine the horse at the same time. If they discover no significant medical issues, I would use massage therapy and stretching exercises to help balance the horse. I'd have the therapist teach me how to massage the horse, and I'd work on the horse regularly. You'd be surprised how the body shape of the horse can change with appropriate physical therapy.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 1:30 pm:

What is not uncommon is to have an upright foot on one leg, which seems to be what you are describing when you say a foot is taller. If I understan what you are trying to say this is what many call a club foot. This might give one leg a more upright appearance. To understand this better see the article » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Foot and Sole Problems » Club Foot. If you would like to learn more about DJD see the article » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of Joints » Arthritis and DJD: An Overview.

Without examining your horse I am not able to make judgements about your horses conformation, DJD, and what might be the relation between these and the problems you are having under saddle. You need to get someone involved you trust who can examine the horse and give you some clear indications as to what is going on.
DrO
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 4:05 pm:

Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. I have used a massage therapist for him in the past - was wondering if it would help his back (when I first started riding him they said he had a sore bakc) - I like them ALOT and I had the opportunity to use one. I will be starting him up again soon. I probably need to have another xray to see how his knee is progressing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 7:52 pm:

My experience with massage therapist has not been that good when it comes to the diagnosis and treatment of disease. I recommend you get a veterinarian, it is not a guarantee of good advice but the closest you can come. Also radiographs will not answer the questions you pose here, a careful exam for lameness is needed to know if that may be responsible for your horses behavior under saddle.
DrO
Member:
Willie

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 9:13 pm:

Horses are honest about how they feel. If your horse is cranky and acting sore when turning/bending left then he IS sore.

They don't do things for no reason at all -- to their way of thinking, all their reasons are valid and all their responses are exactly appropriate. Your horse isn't doing these things just to "mess with you" -- he doesn't have the brain power to do that. They're very logical; it's just us humans who can't quite figure out their logic sometimes.

If he's unbalanced, he's going to travel crooked, and any attempt to make him less crooked will meet with resistance if the corrective attempts make him uncomfortable or cause pain. I'd agree with Dr. Oglesby that you've got to look at the possibility of clubfoot, even if it's not a severe case. If one front foot is narrower, boxier in shape and more upright that the other, then it IS a clubfoot, though it may be a mild case. And clubfoot means the horse has spent probably his entire life compensating for a difference in foot and pastern angles, by adjusting his balance and musculature. Add to that the race training (whether he ever raced or not, someone intended for him to race) and you are going to have an inherently crooked horse.

The interesting thing is that he's less comfortable going counterclockwise than clockwise -- most horses are crooked in the other direction, because we lead from the left, handle from the left, race to the left, etc. Since your horse is less comfortable to the left than the right, I'd suspect a true physical imbalance.

Try getting a second opinion, perhaps from a veterinarian who specializes in sports horses and structural lameness. And definitely add joint supplements to his diet -- glucosamine and MSM. (Generic brands, and others like Grand Flex, are much cheaper than Cosequin and at least as effective.) Learn what exercises he needs to do to strengthen his bad side, start slow, establish a a routine. Then make sure he stays on the glucosamine and MSM supplements forever, and you do the exercises religiously.

I have a 14-year-old rescued thoroughbred named Thor, a dressage horse who was doing very well at 2nd and 3rd level until his young owner decided to teach him to jump and turn him into an eventer a couple of years ago. He promptly developed DJD in his hocks and a mysterious undiagnosable lameness in one front leg. All sorts of corrective shoeing just made it worse. He's a big-bodied 16.2 hand horse with teeny little feet and legs -- thankfully, he never raced -- and his front feet are two different sizes and shapes. (The right is boxier and more upright than the left, so he finds it difficult to bend and be supple to the right.)

He spent a year resting and recovering from all sorts of expensive treatments, and is now quite sound and comfortable as a trail horse and lower-level dressage schoolmaster. But he must not be jumped, ever, and we spend at least 20 minutes of warmup at the walk at the beginning of each ride -- shortening, lengthening, bending, leg-yielding, balanced halts and quiet, steady rein-backs -- to overcome his right-side stiffness. He overbends to the left and will fall over his right shoulder very badly to avoid bending if he's not ridden carefully and warmed up properly. But that resistance is never, never his fault. He gets MSM and 7500 mg of glucosoamine every day, and he's happy and sound, if not perfectly balanced.

My second horse, a 6-year-old off-the-track thoroughbred who's had two arthroscopic surgeries for bone chips in his knee (see Equus, May, 2002), is also not perfectly balanced -- he wouldn't longe or bend or even STEER to the right AT ALL for months and months -- but joint supplements and good exercise have brought him around nicely to where his crookedness is almost not noticeable to an observer. Much of the suppling work with him was done at the walk, also. Our favorite exercise: walk a square, 5 yards or so on a side, so you travel straight for a few strides then bend 90 degrees, go straight again, etc., and then leg-yield to create a new square that's 10 yards or so on a side, bend 90 degrees at the corner, etc. In your case, you'd travel clockwise, while I concentrate on counterclockwise.

Sarah

P.S. Since I'm 52 years old and have fairly severe arthritis in my left foot, I can attest to the positive effects of both MSM and glucosamine. If it's good for my horses . . .
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002 - 10:41 pm:

Just in case, have you had his teeth/mouth checked by a good dentist?

Also, how small a circle are you riding? Can he comfortably do a 20m or is that also a problem?
Melissa
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Thursday, Oct 24, 2002 - 10:54 am:

Thanks Dr O. for your advice. While I still plan on massages for him - that's purely for pleasure -not intended to fix his legs or joints. I will have a vet look at him - absolutely.

Melissa - He just had teeth work done by an equine dentist in Aug (turns out he hadn't had his teeth floated for at least 2-3 years) - he had to cut large pieces off 2 teeth - I know my bill was double of what a normal procedure was.
As for circles, he generally can do smaller circles OK - but when I rode him Tues night - he really gave me a hard time (seemed stiff) at first when we tried to turn in circles using half the arena (I don't know the exact dimensions of the arena - I was told - but it wasn't written down - so I tend to forget). This time he had a hard time turning right/clockwise. It has been cold, damp and chilly this week - arthritis might be affecting him more now. I don't push him to do alot right away - I will walk 5-10 min before I even ask him to trot - and I didn't canter until 45-50 min into the ride.

Sarah - the physical description of your Thor sounds almost exactly like Charlie: thoroughbred, 16.2 h,same right leg, with a taller, boxier hoof. I would think he would have a harder time going to the right because of this (which he did 2 nights ago). I do not work him very hard when I do ride and he gets every other day off. I give him Cosequin every day with aspirin. I have read about MSM - but don't know anyone who uses it. I'll ask my farrier next week if he would say he has a club foot - I saw the pictures in the article on this site - and it certainly seems to be that way. In looking at the previous owner's info he gave me on him - his prepurchase exam in March 2001 noted this:
LF: Appearance - WNL
Palpation - Small medial splint
Hoof Tester - negative
Manipulation - neg to LLFT
RF: Appearance - WNL. Intercarpal joint
moderately enlarged
Palpation - Small medial splint
Hoof Tester - negative
Manipulation - neg to LLFT
LH and RH - all neg or WNL

I was going to ask the farrier about a pad in his left to make him more even - but now I have concerns. A few people in my barn have been taking their horses to Univ of Wisconsin-Madison -saying they are experts in lameness up there. One of the vets used to work with thoroughbreds from racetracks in Kentucky. This is a 3 hour trip each way and quite costly - but wonder if it would be worth it if they can give me the best info and advice for future treatment.

Thanks again, to everyone!
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Saturday, Nov 2, 2002 - 12:15 am:

Update: I have not seen a vet yet. Some at the barn have recommended a certain vet in the south suburbs-some go to Madison, WI - I've been to a more local equine hospital. Who to go to? I've got to figure that out.

An experienced horsewoman saw Charlie tonight while I was riding. It is cold and chilly here (in the arena, too.) I walked him at least 10 min. prior to trotting. He was OK for about 1-2 laps - then started with the leg lifting, mini buck, ears back. And this was clockwise now. Then counter clockwise - good for 1 lap - then bad. She saw this and said it was due to a sore back. He's skirting the follow through because he's sore. Another sign is his mini hop into the trot. As long as I have ridden him, he does this (almost all the time). Sometimes it is a very slight hop, others it's rather exaggerated. I've just gotten used to it. I've asked the trainers I've worked with before, and they said, that's just what he does. She felt his back after the ride and he seemed to be having back spasms. I will be giving him bute for 3 days and lunging only with side reins (not tight and no more than 7 min each way) every day. This might make sense - when I first started riding him - I was told to not sit in the saddle right away - to let him warm up first. I did try that for a while. Eventually, I just started out sitting and he seemed fine. Every once in awhile though, he would do this.
Member:
Blessing

Posted on Thursday, Nov 7, 2002 - 8:23 pm:

We have an off the track Standardbred, being retrained in English riding. His left hock is fused and his right one is partially fused. We have him on intravenous Legend with Corta Flex on a daily basis. Before receiving Legend he would often stand like a "goat on a rock". I had a visiting Chiropractor check him out. His back was out and through her wonderful hands, together with acupuncture I saw my horse stand normally for the first time. Because his hocks were sore he had compensated for the pain by putting his back out. After the Chiropractor had visited I had his hocks X-rayed and we found out where the problem was. He was put on Legend and has responded beautifully. My vet also agreed that his back was out and recommended the chiropractor. I am an absolute believer. The chiropractor was a vet herself and actually visited my horse twice. I feel that when you have the combination support of vet and chiropractor, it is a winning combination. I hope that you can find such a combination where you are. If you would like to have the e mail of mine please let me know.
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Monday, Nov 11, 2002 - 3:42 pm:

A chiro vet will be looking at him this Friday. I have been lunging him every day and sometimes he starts into a canter (I'm not asking) but then he DrOps back to a trot almost immediately. It seems like he doesn't want to go forward when he starts this. A few nights ago, he was lifting his right hind leg, mini bucks while trotting throughout the whole lesson. Since the vet is coming out to see him - I was told to keep him riding (and sore) so the vet has something to see. I hate doing this. At one point, when he stopped trotting ( I told him to) he turned to me (did not tell him to) and he stomped his left hind leg 3-4 times. I think he was trying to tell me something.

Hopefully, the vet will help him out.
Member:
Blessing

Posted on Monday, Nov 11, 2002 - 6:27 pm:

Your horse definately appears very uncomfortable. I sincerely hope you can find the reason. Look forward to hearing the result of the Chiro's visit Friday.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 12, 2002 - 8:11 am:

I personally would have preferred a nonchiro veterinarian, I have to admit. The diagnostic and therapeutic lexicon used by them often suggests that they are willing to diagnose diseases that are either very unlikely or impossible to diagnose from the techniques they use and then apply equally unlikely therapies.
DrO
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 12, 2002 - 9:09 am:

I plan on taking him to the area equine hospital for a check as well about a week after the chiro vet. I'd still like to get an xray of his RF knee. They will do a lameness exam as well. Hopefully, they will both come to the same conclusion.
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 3:07 pm:

Update: Chiro vet saw him last Friday (Nov 15). He didn't do any lameness tests (I didn't say he was lame - just said appears to have a sore back.) Charlie was very stiff on his right side. He was very cooperative with his adjustments - tail to head. The vet massaged a sacro-(something) muscle for about 5 mins at the start and it looked like Charlie was going to go to sleep. He also tried to adjust his neck/poll - I was amazed he let the vet pull on him that way. He was having back spasms while being massaged. He is on Methocarbamol(?) for 10 days to help his muscles relax. I turned him out in the arena the next day to stretch his legs - crazy horse! Bucking, running - his tail was standing straight up (never saw it this high before). Of course, I was worried he'd hurt himself! The nights are rather cold again - so he has a blanket on most of the time now - especially while trying to get him to relax. I had to go out of town on business this week - so a friend is using side reins on him to help him build the muscles in his back better. I plan on going to a regular vet in the next week or so to get a regular lameness checkup and xray of his knee.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 6:14 am:

We all like a good massage.....I am dissapointed the chiro vet did not take the time to look at this guy move.
DrO
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 4, 2002 - 6:35 pm:

Finally got him to a vet (non-chiro) today. I was referred to this vet as a good leg man. Luckily, I still went despite an opinion that he was just messing with me. Friday, Nov 29, an experienced woman rode him in her saddle (I was trying it to see if it made a difference in his attitude). He was immediately wonderful for her. He DrOpped his head - trotted beautifully. He was a little stiff in some turns. But another saw this and said he was just doing this with me -probably just attitude.

Xrays were taken of both hocks and his RF knee:
RH-active jack spavin
LH-DJD and active jack spavin
RF knee-slab fracture; osteo arthritis & kissing lesion 3rd distal carpal bone and proximal metacarpal & 3rd carpal

The fracture is old - there is mending going on. Hard to say how long though - could just be a few months. He said his hocks could have been a lot worse. Since he started this behavior on Oct 20 -maybe this occurred shortly before this? He's on stall rest/hand walking for the next 60 days. Then re-xray knee in 90 days. Vet has suggested IM Adequan at that time - provided everything is healing right.

Mu gut said he was hurting and this wasn't just attitude. Always trust your gut!

I am amazed that he does not show any lameness in his stride and he "performed" beautifully at the trot for this other woman. I know horses can work through the pain. I am just so glad to know he will heal now.

He has been getting cosequin for over a year and will probably add MSM now as well.
Member:
Penner

Posted on Thursday, Dec 5, 2002 - 4:39 pm:

Good for you that you have found the problem & followed your "gut" feelings.
Member:
Valerieg

Posted on Friday, Dec 6, 2002 - 10:11 am:

Dr. O:

Should I be surprised that he didn't appear lame when riding/trotting/lunging?

I wouldn't have believed this, if I hadn't seen the x-rays. I see the lump on his knee joint now - I guess I just didn't notice it before (he has knobby knees.) There is a slight amount of heat there. I can rub it lightly - he doesn't seem irritated. Should there be pain? The piece that has broken off is about 1"x 2" (a guess - it's just not a chip). I was not told to wrap this - just stall rest and hand walking. I guess I am worried that the bone won't reattach right.

(Interestingly, I broke 2 fingers the night before Thanksgiving - lunging him (my fault). I have a bone chip on one knuckle and a hairline fracture on another. I do not have any pain if I don't move my joints. Both splints are off and I don't need surgery. I guess we'll both be recovering together, although it didn't stop me from riding!)
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