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Discussion on Selecting a Trainer
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Hi All,
Was wondering if some of you might have some tips for selecting a trainer to start a young horse... You know, questions I should ask the potential trainer, things I should look for at their facility etc. References would be something I would ask for, as well as discussing their 'game plan'. I was thinking I would ask to see them work with a green horse (if they have one available), or if they would come to my place and handle mine, so I could watch the interaction. With an average minded young horse (2 yr old) that has not had a lot of ground work, what might I expect to see after 30, 60 or 90 days? I know, depends on the horse, but I wouldn’t mind hearing some actual experiences. The eventual job of this particular horse will be that of a pleasure trail horse – I would like to take her on cattle drives, camping trips. She will have to be road safe, as we may encounter traffic on the 10 min ride it takes to hit the trails. I am not so much interested in lead changes and proper head carriage – I would want more time spent on de-spooking and being introduced to the trail and obstacles encountered there; like water crossings, bridges etc. We do not have many trainers in our area and some are booked 6 months to a year in advance. I don’t want her too far away, as I would like to be as involved as possible – even if it’s just to watch. Any thoughts/pointers/ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx,
Lee C
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 9:12 pm:
Always a good idea to go and watch a session or two, Lee. Same when trying to decide on a riding instructor . . . or day care . . .
and a good trainer will train the horse owner, too . . . which I believe is more important than training the horse. I would watch the trainer ride and work on the ground with a green horse and a horse he/she has already trained.
Some established trainers just don't have the time to work at other facilities . . . but there are many good trainers, especially those who may be just launching their businesses, who may come to you for an extra charge.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:41 am:
Ask for references and then check them. I'm always surprised when someone changes trainers and then is surprised when the grapevine catches up.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:45 pm:
I would add that you should watch the trainer a lot; watch them at shows or just hang around their barn and watch. Try and go unannounced and hang out before introducing yourself. See for yourself not only how they train and the methods they use, but how they act to clients and just "regular" people as well as how they act to the horse when they think no one is around. Ask around a lot, too.
I've found that seeing a trainer at a show is a good place to check them out. Hours are long, there's a lot of pressure,etc. If the trainer is going to show his worst side, it will come out in the barn area of a show.
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 3:11 pm:
In addition to references I would check his or her credentials. It always surprises me how many people say they are certified by so and so, trained with such and such or graduated from some institution, yet when you check with the organization involved they either don't know the person or the relationship is exaggerated.
Of course he or she may well still be a perfectly good trainer, but I would want at least an explanation of the distortion.
Wiley
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 - 3:02 pm:
Hi everyone,
Sorry I've taken so long to come back to this... Thank you all for your tips and advice. I think I have found someone. I have talked to her only on the phone briefly, as she is out of town and will be for a couple of more weeks at a ranch helping with calving. She was recommended by my vet (who knows my young horse well). Anyway, she is going to call me when she gets back in town, so we can arrange a meeting. From the conversation we had, her methods and philosophies sound like they are what I want in a trainer. The questions she asked me were, I thought, important questions, like, "What are your eventual goals for this horse?". She is a riding coach as well, and trains both English and Western. She will not take on a horse without the owner/rider being involved in the training process. An extra bonus is she is only 15 minutes away... She takes on only 4 projects a year and is already booked for 4. However, they are all from the same client and she thinks the client will be okay if she only starts 3 of hers this spring. If her client is okay with this, she will have room to take mine around the middle of April. I mentioned that my filly will only be just 2 and she said that if we determine she is not ready to start under saddle, we will lay down a good foundation of ground work to prepare her for that later. Because my horse has not had much exposure to 'things' (ie. trailer loading, strange environments, large groups of other horses, blanketing/bathing etc.), she felt that a good deal of time should be spent with her on the ground anyway. She also teaches her pupils to be ponied from another horse and eventually ponies them out on the trail, which I liked, since that is where she will be eventually ridden.
When I meet with her and check out the facility etc., I will ask for more references and about credentials. I have also composed a 'list' to go over with her of what I hope to expect from my horse in the end. That way, she can tell me if my expectations are too high or whatever, and we can discuss it together.
There is one other trainer I looked into (that wasn't a million miles away and fit into my budget...), but I heard a lot of things about him I didn't like. One was a horse refused to go in the trailer, so the trailer was backed up to an alley with high fencing on both sides and the horse was forced into the trailer by driving a tractor behind it... Horrifying, I thought.
Lee C
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:21 am:
One other suggestion - ask her riding schedule. Some trainers charge for "30 days", which means you pay for 30 days at their place, but they may only work your horse 4 days a week, and if bad weather comes, well, you are out of luck. 30 days may only mean 20. Ask what happens if the trainer is sick or weather is bad. Our trainer keeps a calendar of what is done every day, and what days our horse is "off", so "90 days" is really more like 110 - 120. He doesn't send our horse back until he has reached a goal that we have set. Also, ask about worming and feed. It seems to be cheaper to supply your own feed and wormers than for a trainer to do it, as well as trims and shoeing. When we send a horse, we send feed, and refresh the supply when needed. We also send our own wormer and the dates for worming. And... : (we've done all the wrong things, so we have learned) make sure your trainer includes training you. It really bites to get a horse home that has learned cues that you can't figure out!! What a nightmare! The trainer should ride your horse for you in front of you to show what your horse has learned (and you should be checking in regularly), then give you lessons so that you can get the same results. The best trainer we ever used was a "trail trainer". He re-trained my daughter's barrel horse for trails. He didn't just train her at his place. They rode down the road, through pastures, and on 4 overnight trail rides before she came home. He put about 100 miles on her, which is more than we could do in a year. There is nothing more valuable for a trail horse than actual miles on the trail.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:42 am:
Excellent points, Michelle . . .
Thanks for sharing them to help others of us from having to learn the hard way.
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 12:59 pm:
Thanks Michelle - excellent feedback. You've given me some new ideas and re-confirmed some I was thinking. I always wondered how that worked - 30 days etc., meaning they just have your horse for a month, or do they actually 'work' with it for 30 days... Also, length of sessions I wondered about. I guess that would depend on the horse's mind and what stage they're at in their training. I like the calendar idea. If whomever I end up with doesn't use that system, perhaps I'll suggest it - their reaction should tell me something right there!
She has suggested I bring my own feed and I am not far away (If I take this trainer), so I plan to de-worm myself - ha,ha - I mean de-worm my horse myself! Also, I want to use my own farrier, so I will make those arrangements as well. Of course, I will let the trainer know ahead of time of these dates and appointments.
Yes, the trainer and I discussed that I must learn to handle/ride the horse in the manner it is taught. It is part of why she insisted that I must be involved with the process. I am not a 'great' rider, so I would probably continue on with some lessons for awhile - I would also like to ride my horse out on the road/trail a few times with the trainer before she comes home.
When you mention the 'trail trainer', that is one of the key things that interested me in this particular trainer. She does take them out - on roads, over bridges/windfall, hills, through water etc. First they are ponied, then later they go out under saddle. A 'great on trails' horse I bought in the past could canter pretty circles in an arena and was fine on a groomed trail, but not safe on rough, steep terrain with obstacles etc. I mentioned this to the trainer, as I really want to make sure she knows what I want my horse to be capable of. I like the overnight idea - I'm going to ask if it can be arranged. If you think of any other goodies, please pass them on!
Lee C
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 4:02 pm:
I think it is just a cultural thing really but here it would be considered a bit impolite to hang about watching them at work. You choose someone on their reputation, you agree an approx price and time, then go AWAY and leave them to do their work as they think fit. They will ring you if there is a problem...
Bear in mind Ireland is a small place so people are known by the horses they have already trained and you would see trainers out riding their young horses at competitions etc - you would have a pretty good idea of their style of training from that.
I wouldn't say that you wouldn't check over the yard if you hadn't visited it however.
Also this is a generalisation but we wouldn't tend to do the trail stuff during the first period of training. Usually that would end at the stage where the horse can be ridden in company and perhaps for short periods out on the road alone. Then the horse would be turned away for a while to digest what it had learned. When it came back again say a few months later it would learn banks and drains and water and hills etc. But most of them learn that stuff for themselves before they get broken at all! (My 2 yo is getting a new name. Madam Houdini).
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 5:27 pm:
Hi Imogen,
Thank you for adding a different perspective. It may be a cultural thing. However, for us over here it appears to be evolution... This is only my observation, but in the 'old days', that’s exactly how it seems it was done – the horse was taken to the trainer’s and left until it was deemed trained, and then the owner would go and get it. To me, it seems that since there has been more of an emphasis on 'natural horsemanship', the trend is changing. Of the 3 trainers I 'interviewed', all of them wanted me to take an active part in the training, even if it was just to watch. The reason for this, from their perspective, is to avoid exactly what Michelle pointed out – now I have my horse home, but how do I ride it/handle it? The trainer does not want to get a bad name from the client that tells everyone they know what a crappy deal they got, instead of immediately calling the trainer and asking for help.
As for when to hit the trails, I think it depends on the horse. I have a neighbor, that as soon as she has about 10 rides on them in the arena, she’s on the trails (with at least one other seasoned horse). She raises and trains horses for eventing and has been successful at it. Her philosophy is to put miles on them that won’t burn them out, and then a year later she asks them for more refined work.
Yes, depending on where your horses are kept, they can and will learn a great deal on their own! We have a slopping to steep pasture area, with trees, logs, rocks etc. and it’s amazing how well they navigate the 'course' all on their own – often at a gallop! I imagine though it’s much different for a young horse to learn that balance with the weight of a rider on its back (especially if the rider is not well balanced...).
Very interesting, though, how it may be that different areas of the world have different ways of doing things. I suppose if the outcome is a good horse, no matter which way it’s done, then we are all doing something right!
Lee C
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 7:47 pm:
Lee,
I hope you have picked up some good tips. I assume you are wanting a to trail ride on your baby. Just between you and me (cause this is touchy to some people ) there is no horse as broke and as good a partner as a true "trail horse". They must really be able to do it all!! Over the hills, through the water, over a bridge, and you must be able to control and yield their entire bodies. To be safe, they must be broke in all 5 parts of their bodies. They must be level headed and sure footed. They can pull wagons, carry loads, push cows, navigate traffic, stay on a picket all night, and must have EXCELLENT ground manners at all times. I have discovered it takes FOREVER!! and sometimes the training is beyond my ability. I was lucky - we bought a former Houston Mounted Patrol horse, and loved him so much, we sent our other horses to his previous owner for "trail training". Until you can land a helicopter next to your horse, he's not really broke. Good luck, and let us know how everything goes.
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 9:04 pm:
Lee,
Why do you want to start a horse under saddle that is just barely two years old? There are lots of things you can and should do to prepare the horse for a good long term relationship. If you don't feel confident about all the things you should teach your horse before riding, then I could see you enlisting the help of a trainer and the suggestions given are good ones. My trainer starts lots of babies but she is an excellent rider and even a three year old is young to have a rider. If you are a somewhat beginning rider as I was, I would wait until the horse is at least four years old. Their spine is still not fully formed, but if you are careful, you can start riding that early. You can do major damage to the horse's skeleton if they are under four. I know of one trainer who was asked by the owner to start her two year old. He didn't think the horse was ready or old enough, but the owner insisted. So the filly bucked every single time she was ridden, clearly saying that she wasn't ready. There are many ways of relating and working a young horse without riding. Ponying them is an excellent way to get them on trails and used to lots of things. However, you need to be fairly skilled to handle two horses at a time. If you are fairly new to horse ownership or a not very confident rider, I would highly recommend you take some lessons from your trainer on a more seasoned horse. Fillies especially in my experience need someone well versed in dealing with girls! The first trainer I took my horse to promised me a lot which she didn't deliver. Even though I went there for every session, I didn't know much so I didn't know what should have been done. After working with my gelding myself for a year, I finally found my current trainer who is wonderful. She has taught me to ride really well and both of my horses are now seasoned trail horses. Please be careful about riding in traffic on a young horse especially if you ride alone. A young horse can really lose control of its emotions when stressed and if you aren't able to read those emotions, you could have a really nasty wreck. All horses pick up the emotions of people riding them so if you are confident, the horse will be also. However, if you are nervous or scared, the horse will pick up on that too. When bringing up young horses it is always better to have positive experiences rather than have to undo negative problems. It sounds like you may have found someone who can help you and I wish you luck. I just wouldn't rush the riding part in a horse so young.
Gail
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 10:47 pm:
First, Michelle you are so right! The good ones can be any breed, but in a sense what they become as a finished trail horse is almost a breed of their own... Unless one has a passion for trail riding, and has owned one of those 'ultimate' 4 legged trail partners, I don't know if they can truly understand... But I do - I totally know where you are coming from!
Second, Gail, thank you for your input and I appreciate your concern. I don’t want to repeat my earlier posts on this thread, but there was a part where I discussed groundwork might be as far as we go until later (maybe the fall, maybe next year, maybe...) – the horse will decide that. I know there is a lot of debate about how old a horse should be before it goes under saddle – there is much discussion with varying opinions on many threads on this site. It is something I have put a lot of thought into. I have had horses for about 15 years, have had riding lessons and I consider myself a confident intermediate rider. However, I do not consider myself a horse trainer. I have in the past started a couple of young horses with success, but they were 'mentally blessed'. Many of the horses I have owned were green when I bought them and I managed to make most of them into nice, dependable trail horses that beginners could ride – a couple were not meant for that job (some just don’t have the mind for it) and they were sold to people who had a career to fit that horse.
This particular 2 year old that we are discussing is the only horse I have ever bred and raised from a foal, so she is VERY special to me – I plan to keep her forever. Unfortunately, she got off to a bad start and spent most of the first year of her life injured or healing and confined. She spent a lot of time at the vet clinic and has some issues with (fear of) 'people hurting her', as a result. I am the only person she trusts and respects and I think in the long run that is going to make her life (and mine) more difficult. She needs to learn that ALL people deserve the same respect I do, and to get over her trust issues. I don’t have a safe fenced area, like a round pen (we are just building our farm), to work my girl and because of the psychology involved, I think she would benefit from a more experienced horse person working with her. As well, I think she needs to be weaned from me – she prefers my company to even that of other horses and hides behind me when someone new comes around... So, this is how the whole thing started - I wanted someone to spend a lot of time with her, consistently, doing groundwork and 'therapy'. From there the conversation went to what will she ultimately be used for and so on. I was speaking generally about trail horses and the training of, in my thread, I wasn’t meaning to imply this is what this filly has to learn and be after 90 days... My 5 year old needs at least another year under saddle to be an excellent trail horse and she has no baggage, so I certainly don’t expect my baby to be under saddle and 'bombproof' in one season, but it is a future goal.
Lee C
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 2:07 pm:
Thanks for your thoughtful response Lee. I am glad to hear that you are trying to round out her psychological issues and not trying to back her right away. I hope that the trainer you choose has the confidence and experience to help your filly gain confidence. I don't own girls because I find them to be especially sensitive to trust issues. It takes a very in tune trainer to facilitate and strengthen trust. One thing that does not work is to desensitize the filly by sacking her out, tying for long periods of time and hanging things off of a saddle. As you know, horses will pick up the energy and confidence of the person they are working with. Until she gets that bond and starts to trust who is riding her she will never be secure. But it can happen so fast with the right help. A new friend of mine owned a mare for two years and was hesitant and frightened when riding even though she had had horses most of her life. In ONE lesson, my trainer showed her how to connect with her mare, get her to walk and not jig and for the rider to become more secure and calm in her demeanor. The transformation was truly amazing and I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. The mare does not spook or jig now, is relaxed after a ride, has gained weight and they have a wonderful relationship now. So I wish you success in finding the right person to help you gain the relationship you want with you filly. Good Luck,
and let us know how she comes along. Gail
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Member:
leec
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:45 pm:
Hi Gail,
Interesting, your thoughts re: mares versus geldings. It’s not the first time I’ve heard someone say the same. Of my 'naughtiest and most difficult' horses, there have been 2, one was a mare and one was a gelding. The good ones have all been 50/50 mares and geldings. So, I’m on the fence with that one.
Putting aside my filly’s psychological issues with regards to strangers, she is actually pretty confident for a young horse, not to mention she is afraid of nothing. Because she was confined so much when she was little, I tried my best to keep her entertained, so she would not develop vices that horses tend to learn over prolonged periods of confinement. She was curious and excited to explore everything that was presented to her. Cardboard boxes (without the staples), tarps, milk jugs, beach balls – she’s had things draped over her and things hung on her in every way imaginable. Not once was she scared of any of this and I think it’s because she loves having something to do – she’s a busy-body and wants to see and be a part of everything. She follows along the fence while I’m pushing the lawn mower, I can lead her all around our yard, under the deck into the garage and there is no object or noise that startles her. We have walked along the road, and when a car or motorcycle goes by, she just flicks an ear. When horses run along the fence while we walk, she will try to walk a little faster, but when I jiggle the lead rope, she slows down. So, I think she has been 'sacked out', but the difference is it has been something that has been happening to her since she was born. I would imagine if you took a young horse that had little human contact – maybe just hoof trims and de-worming for the first 2 yrs of its life, it would be scared of almost anything new and different. I think my girl will be an excellent trail horse – she wants to explore, doesn’t need other horses, and she really doesn’t have any spook. She also ties very well - cocks a hind leg and dozes like an old nag... Sometimes when I return from getting something, she will have untied herself, but she will still be standing in the same spot with her lead rope in her mouth – she’s a funny one!
That is great for your friend! I have a friend who is kind of going through the same thing right now (she does not live near me). She is having problems 'connecting' with her mare. She has tried to get help, and the trainer or coach often seem to be able to get the horse sorted out, but my friend can’t seem to get it with this horse. I often worry for her safety. Sometimes I think some people have the wrong horse and some horses have the wrong people... To me the horse/human partnership is not a lot different than a marriage. Without trust, respect, excellent communication and an understanding and acceptance of each others differences it cannot flourish...
Yes, I will keep you posted when my girl actually does go off to Kindergarten
Lee C
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