| HorseAdvice.com » Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses » |
| Discussion on 1 month old filly kicking | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: denese |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 11:01 am: I'm not DrO, and I'm sure he's got better ideas, but I've been in the same situation.When my Paint was a month old, he did the same thing. I tried several training methods but had no success until I simply smacked him on the offending leg with a dressage whip. It took three "lessons". He never did that again. Same with striking out, his other favorite sport. Not the gentlest management and training technique perhaps, but very effective for my boy. His mother double-barreled him across the paddock the day after he was born, so I didn't really feel bad letting him know in no uncertain terms that I didn't appreciate his sense of humor. BTW, he's 10 now and when he threatens (which he still does occasionally if I interrupt him when he's eating), I only have to say "knock it off!" and tap the leg with my toe or a crop, and he stands like a soldier. Old habits die hard, but old lessons stick around too. This was taken when he was 2 months old and thought he was more than ready for some serious training. Didn't dull the attitude one bit!  
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: tuckern |
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| Member: dtranch |
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| Member: tuckern |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 1:45 pm: Oh I’m well aware that a horse can hurt, so can humans, cats, dogs, cars, etc., and one cannot go around smacking everything that moves can one? My colt is 18 months old and a pistol, extremely independent intelligent and yet I only use my voice to correct him since birth. We have a trust relationship and he will do what ever I ask out of trust not fear which is the way I have always trained my horses. Back in England I got into rehabbing ill treated horses quite by chance when I took in a livery; he was 4 year old chestnut Anglo Arab that had the worst manners out of panic as her owner was very kin in using the stick, he was sedated when they brought him in and the next morning when I came down to the stable yard I found a 16hh monster on his hinds and threatening me with all his might. Tommy was his name and by now he was scared of horses, tractors even his own shadow, this horse had been taught manners by the stick since he was a few weeks old. The poor guy was afraid of the world, you could not brush him, blanket him shoe him. I didn’t know this until later but his owner was ready to get her money back in the meat market, and yet with gentle care he became a champ in almost all categories. Here in Mexico I have rehabbed 9 horses which I rescued from the worst ill treatment ever! Due to ignorance, three of them are blind and yet from being a cross from a kicking spinning top and a shark! They are calm and well mannered and I only use my voice to correct them! Horses can understand up to 280 words which give us a lot of vocabulary!  Horses mean freedom Liliana |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 2:01 pm: I understand now that I wasn't particularly clear in my post. Are you saying to first use voice and body language? Since you work with rehab horses, I can see where you feel a smack would be too much. While I can mostly reprimand with my voice and body language, if I feel I may be put in danger, I will give a smack, but never to the head, only neck, belly or bum.But please know that the horses I give a smack to always come back to me with their heads down apologizing for their behavior because they do know better. The horses in my barn are also calm and well mannered (for the most part, but they will test now and again )
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| Member: dres |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 3:19 pm: Nicole, Mom was getting even for baby having kept her up all night! He hit the ground running and never stopped. She barked in his face, knocked him against the wall, and still he kept trotting around, stopping for a quick drink, then back to investigating the stall. We were ALL exhausted! I'd have kicked him myself if I hadn't been too tired to raise my leg. On a more serious note, I think it's vital here that we agree that there are huge differences at birth among horses just as there are among humans. Some are mellow and some aren't. Some are born challenging the world. It's seductive to put them all in one cubby and assume that what works for one will work for all. I've seen babies (horses, that is) who were easy and cooperative from the minute they touched the ground. I also saw a friend lose his front teeth trying to gently convince a rambunctious foal that moving forward out of the stall with a rope around his butt would be a good thing to do. Watch the herd and see the dynamic. Pokey's message to Zip was loud and clear: "I'm Mom! I need my beauty sleep!" My message was equally clear: "Don't kick me! I bite!" I didn't beat the heck out of him. Just a quick swat. And that was after imprinting and leading and gentle handling. He challenged--not just once, but repeatedly--and I responded. Game over. Aileen, I agree. Zip ALWAYS apologizes when I tell him (no matter how I phrase it) that he's crossed the line. Most times I set it up so he finds out for himself that his behavior is counter-productive. I have never hit him from the saddle--I don't have a death wish. I carry a crop and just wave it when I want more forward motion. He's smart and quick to pick up signals. We're best buddies and will remain so. I've also used separation from the herd when he got particularly unruly as a 3-yo. That works as well. But there are moments when bullying has to be curtailed before someone gets hurt. A month-old foal is plenty old enough to be trying out his (or her) power over the environment. Liliana, you're right! That's a lot of vocabulary. But we have to teach it to them and we and they have to agree on the meanings of the words. When "no" means "sometimes" and "stop" means "would you mind?", communication fails and dangerous situations arise. Which brings me to the fact that every interaction is a teaching situation. We must always be aware of what we communicate. I'm not advocating sending a message of fear and intimidation. I'm advocating clear communication with minimal repetition. Verbal cues or non-verbal signals should always accompany any physical stimuli so that later the physical can be removed. |
| Member: maggienm |
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| Member: tuckern |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 4:25 pm: Joanne, and did baby learn his lesson after Mom got serious? Something tells me maybe he didn't, he sounds like the kind of horse to rebel against anything! I find those horses to be the most fun, the most dedicated and the most loyal (once they understand their place, that is). Zip sounds like a fun, albeit exhausting, horse! To elaborate on my previous posts, I am not saying that I go out and smack everything that moves. There is definitive difference between abusing an animal and gaining respect. Sure, if I were to go out and start wailing on my horse, for no reason, it won't take her long to resent me, and be afraid of people and whips. BUT, that's not what I do. All I want is for her to know that I'm the alpha of our herd. I use alot of Clinton Anderson's techniques. I be as easy as possible, but as firm as necessary and everything is a three step process (ask, tell, spank). If I have to spank, I take away the pressure as soon as she does what I want. I end all sessions by rubbing the crop on their forehead, and all over their body. And, as a result I have a horse who is a good partner, she comes up to me, and shoves her nose in the bridle, because she likes being around me. Nicole |
| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: leec |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 9:42 am: Nicole, he did indeed! He was a model son. He continued testing everyone else in his environment until I convinced them all to set limits. Even as recently as a year ago I had to reprimand my barn slaves for allowing him to undress them! They thought it was hilarious when he untied their shoes and ripped their hats from their heads. He would never do that to me, so I didn't find out about it right away. I got the "Oooo . . . but he's so CUTE!" response and pointed out that they were all sporting tooth marks and scratches, and their clothing was beyond repair. Zip has a sense of humor that includes balancing his feed bucket on his head and flipping it from there onto his butt. He's creative enough not to need to be destructive to get attention. Lord, save us from creative horses! Lee, I can just picture your horse imitation! I've done the same thing (though my "squealing" tends to include a few four-letter words). My neighbors and friends do think I'm a bit odd, but they like to come and hang out with my horses because they're all well-mannered and good-natured. Even Zip. 
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 10:50 am: Hello Ailee Joanne and all, sorry I didn't get back sooner but as you know time is of the essence.My horses know I’m the Alfa and they respect me, they can be in the field playing and when I say STOP, Head Collar they stop as they know that they are required for something. I feel that saying Please does not make one weak, after all if we go to a shop we don’t slap the shop keeper do we! In my opinion constancy is what gives results. I agree that we have to be firm, they are big, fast, and strong. Oh will shout at them if needed. We all know that “whoa you son of a b..ch” works don’t we. Training of a horse starts at birth I agree, and a routine has to be followed, one can’t lead them to the field one day, and then because is raining or something allow them to go free as then confusion sets it. I find it interest to read that some mares will kick their foals when they are a few weeks old; I can only assume that perhaps they are brood mares that feel like machines DrOpping a foal a year, or that they are hungry. Please do not take offence I am only trying to understand a behaviour I have yet to see. It is always so interesting to read all points of view. Regards Liliana
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 11:29 am: Interesting theory about the mares! I can say for certain that my mare has only had one foal in her lifetime, so her kick wasn't out of frustration at her lot in life; it was a reprimand. She was an excellent mom and very protective of her baby, but she also weaned him at 3 months on her own. She just picked up her leg, threatened him, and walked away one day, and that was the end. He was very big, pushy, and could lift her hindquarters off the ground with his head. I don't think she liked that. But I believe all of her responses were to his behavior, not to any outside influences.No, saying "please" is polite, not weak. But an aggressive animal, hearing "please" might interpret it as a sign of weakness if he hasn't already got the picture regarding the owner's/trainer's status in the herd. BTW, we also raised a Morgan who had been foaled at a breeder's farm and hadn't been properly socialized. As a yearling he was a hazard to everyone around him. Spoiled? Ach!  Small but deadly! We made use of many different methods in bringing him around to the point where he became the nicest, most kind-hearted and most beloved of all of our horses for 16 years. Still, that early spoiling came through periodically as bullying, so he required constant reinforcement of his retraining. I'd have preferred it had he been shown the ropes from the get-go.
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| Member: canyon28 |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 2:13 pm: Ha Joanne got you girlSooo you do admit that they understand our lingo.. As I mentioned before, I am firm and my horses do respect me. My now five year old stallion kicked out at the vet when he was 22 hours old, there was a sharp NO from both of us and he has never kicked again neither shown any aggressive behaviour, at training, eating, picking his feet or any activity. My 18 month old colt is a real pistol and he can be bucking and kicking in the field as they do playfully and finding their place in the herd, but when the wicked witch of the east walks in and say STOP he stands to attention. Scarlet the mare would kick you rather than look at you and with loving but firm reassurance she stopped kicking. Horses are pray not predators, when the need to defend them selves stops so does the need to kick or bite. If you notice horses rarely kick out at each other for no reason, there are several warnings well before the leg lashes out ! So my long winded point is that by no means I suggest that you always say pretty please with a cherry on top, but use your voice accordingly, soft if you are trying to introduce a new instruction and firm if they are being a brat! Discipline is one thing hitting is another Life is like a box of chocolates and liquorish all sorts. Some of us like to talk to our horses and be friends and some to slap them to obey. Liliana |
| Member: tuckern |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 3:08 pm: Denese,Bet ya didn't think you'd spark such a debate with your post, eh? Liliana, perhaps you've been lucky to only work with horses with a submissive attitude, who have no interest in testing you to see who's boss. All I know is that I tried the "Oh my darling Precious, please, oh please, oh please..." with my mare and she would look at me like I was nuts, then look away, basically flipping me off. Of course, when I persisted, she felt I needed reprimanding, and would attack. Sure, the end result should be a "Please, will you...." (with body language, as well as words), but horses do not automatically know that language, it has to be taught to them. I can’t go out to the forest where I live, walk up to the band of wild horses, and yell "Come here" and have them come to me. They wouldn’t understand. With my mare, yes, I'm at the point now that she rarely needs to be reminded who's the boss, she's pretty much given up her union card to me, and I can ask nicely for things, and she will oblige. Horses do NOT have the capability to think like we do. It’s a predator vs. prey thing. We are predators, direct-line thinkers; when we approach something, we walk directly up to it. Horses are prey animals, and a large section of their brain controls reacting. When they approach something, they’ll take a couple steps forward, and then retreat, then a couple of more steps, and retreat, and so on. They will also make sure there are several escape paths available, in case they need it. It is how they have survived for millions of years. It is why, IMO, horses can never be totally domesticated. All horses have the instinct to return to the wild, and survive. There’s no way to train out or breed out the reacting section of their brain. We as humans must learn how to deal with it, and work with horses at their level of understanding. Oh, and there’s no reason why a person cannot talk to their horse and be friends, even if they do need to spank a horse when it is being disrespectful. That is how I work with any horse. That is how I have calm, well-mannered horses who follow me around when I’m cleaning their pens, and want to be around me. Nicole |
| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 4:24 pm: Of course, Liliana! Horses are intelligent and capable of learning to connect our human sounds to meanings. Right, Nicole! That's the point I was making. They aren't born knowing our language (or even their own . . . they learn that from the herd), and some of us are really bad at learning theirs. We have to work out a middle ground, carefully attaching words and signals to outcomes just as we do with small human children who are pre-verbal. Tone of voice is great if the animal in question "gets" what it means and what the repercussions will be if it's ignored. Some things are instinctual and some are learned. Figuring out which are which is the issue at hand and the root of all of the horse training methods. IMO any word said loudly and sharply will get their attention. That's a prey animal's response. If I go out to my pasture right now and say "SQUASH" loudly, they'll all stop what they're doing and look at me. If it's near feeding time, they'll also all come to where I'm standing. That's something they've learned with time and repetition. |
| Member: canyon28 |
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| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:08 am: Aileen, I can't believe you asked that question! Females are females, regardless of species. We're very territorial. Picture her wagging her head behind you as you left and muttering "That bee-atch don't know who she's messin' with! Bring it on, girlfriend!" She wants you off her turf. You might want to show her who's boss by bringing her out of the stall and tying her while you sweep. She can make evil faces behind your back, but her mat will be swept in spite of her. Remember it's not the boys who run the herd. The mares are in charge of everything but the decision about where to graze next. Your new mare is angling for the Lead Mare spot, and you're apparently the only one still standing in her way. I had a crusty little Appy mare--ugly as sin and twice as mean--who, despite being smaller than the other 40 horses in the pasture, managed to control their access to the water trough to the point where the barn owner had to introduce an elderly and even more feisty gelding who he knew would beat her up. It worked perfectly. I spent 25 years teaching teenagers--mostly emotionally disturbed. Trust me, I'd rather break up a fight between two boys with knives than between two girls armed with nothing but attitude. |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:47 am:  I know... but I've limited experience with mares, thought maybe there was a secret I didn't know about She was MUCH better when I fed this morning, backed right up, was careful not to get in my space. So we'll see. After her doublebarrel episode I DrOpped her alfalfa down to 2 pounds am and pm (down from 4 pounds am and pm), hopefully that has helped. |
| Member: leec |
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| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 12:10 pm: I hope so Lee, it's been 4 feedings of the reduced alfalfa. Thank you
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| Member: jmarie |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 3:31 pm: Aileen, there is a saying that you tell a gelding but you ask a mare! Nicole and Joanne, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I fell that one of the problems is that people always want horses to behave the same way as their previous horse or their friend's horse or grandpa's horse. One has to have the ability to evolve and understand that horses are individuals, with different needs in feeding, training methods, and abilities just like humans. They understand the concept - you provide food and shelter and I tolerate you on my back - a lot quicker than we do. They have moods and very strong family bonds which most of the time people never notice as they separate the foal from the mother at two or three months old, when in their natural environment there is a very strong bond which lasts up to two years and a half. This is the time that they use to learn from their parents all they need to know to survive. A foal that has been allowed to be with it’s mother the natural term will be a lot more self confident than the foal that got separated at three months old I guess the difference here is that I am more dedicated to study their behaviour as a herd and individuals than to have them as my slaves to do what I command! I am the boss at my company but my horses are my friends they do as I ask to please me as a friend and provider. At the riding school in England I had my share of Demons; I bought them really cheap and retrained them to be civilized and well mannered horses. Some are brighter than others I agree, some learn almost straight away while some need a little longer. But hey not all humans are genius.  Really and truly the times when horses were thought to be dumb animals is long gone now we know they are intelligent, tolerant they can cure our ailments. And another thing, we humans are the intelligent ones! So why do horses never make the same mistake twice! And we do time and time again? Liliana |
| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 9:40 am: Liliana, I don't disagree with you. You have made many very good points. I should tell you that Zip, the horse I used as an example when I first posted to this thread, has never been separated from his mother. She weaned him; I didn't. He's 10, and they're still pasture mates. Nor was I trying to make him (or any other foal) into a carbon copy of some other horse. I have never had two horses that were alike, even when I worked at a training facility with over 50 horses. There are distinct differences in personality among horses, and I'm a huge proponent of the idea of letting the horse choose his work and working with him toward a pleasant relationship. But this thread was about safety. A kicking/biting/striking horse is a safety risk. How best to reduce the risk is something that has been (and will be) debated endlessly and which is inextricably intertwined with the combined personalities of both horse and trainer. You are successful with your method, and that's wonderful, and I suspect your success is based in your ability to "read" whether the unwanted behavior is coming from fear or aggression. I'm successful with mine for the same reason, and that's also a good thing. I do, however, take exception to the statement that horses never make the same mistake twice! I think they may disagree on the definition of "mistake", but they certainly will repeat unwanted behaviors. Your comment that some learn more quickly is quite accurate, and I agree wholeheartedly. We're not really at opposite ends of the continuum, just hovering somewhere in the middle. |
| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 4:49 pm: Joanne what I meant by "never making the same mistake" is, as for example when a horse cuts it’s hoof in a puddle; there will be a cold day in hell before he goes through a puddle again! I am glad that your system works for you! I guess what started the ball rolling is when I read comments like, kick her in the butt, slap her with the whip! I totally agree that safety is a big factor, which is why I strongly oppose to hitting a ONE MONTH OLD foal that still cannot reason or understand WHY it got hit. Perhaps with a ten year old horse that knows its strength and can be potentially dangerous one could suggest a sharp NO with a sharp TAP on the shoulder in the split second that the offence is committed. What I try to avoid at all costs is to let horses find out their sheer power and strength which lets face it if they really want to they can send us piddling off. Personally I've seen many cases where people kick the horse as mom would and by putting themselves in a horse's place they get treated as such which is a hell of a lot more dangerous! A human will never be able to kick as hard as a horse or flee as fast as a horse! Liliana |
| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: christel |
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| Member: dtranch |
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| Member: canyon28 |
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| Member: dtranch |
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| Member: kthorse |
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| Member: canter |
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| Member: tuckern |
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 3:25 pm: Thank you Dennis Liliana, I think we understand your point, I just don't want to see someone get hurt. I don't believe this: "by hit them at the age of one month you are just telling them that the two legged things are not to be trusted." You may define "hitting" as abuse, and granted it CAN BE... but I think we as horse lovers know when to draw the line, I believe Dennis summed it up nicely. It's the owners that don't love their horses and don't try or don't want to learn how to do only the best for them that you have to press this idea into their heads... not the ones that are perusing this site |
| Member: mcbizz |
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| Member: tuckern |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 4:43 pm: But no one here is talking about BEATING UP a horse for no reason. There is a huge difference between gaining respect/submission through ABUSE, and gaining respect through LEADERSHIP. I see now that perhaps that's where the misunderstanding is.From your last post I gather you believe that there is no difference, that all slapping/smacking/bopping whatever, is abuse. But, it's just not true. I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too much like a horse, because I don't see where the problem is. Read the last two sentences of Dennis' post. It sums it up very well, and is such an awesome statement. Nicole |
| Member: jmarie |
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| Member: boomer |
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| Member: boomer |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 11:25 pm: Denese, I have a 10 month old paint filly that was a stinker at one month also. I made the mistake of not correcting her because she was "just a baby". Well needless to say she turned into a little devil at 6 months. I since have done some correction (yes, it included popping her bottom when she spun to kick me). I can't tell you enough how you must correct the kicking at her age because they grow fast and just get worse. My Hope is now really wonderful to be around and I believe she enjoys everything much more that she knows her boundaries..Good luck and enjoy!
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| Member: maggienm |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 11:06 am: Carolyn, I smiled when I read your description of holding the foal in the air by the halter till he stopped his antics. When I bought the mini stallion, he and Zip battled it out over the herd leader position. One of Zip's winning tactics was to grab Duke's blanket by the withers fleece and pick him up so his front feet dangled and his hind feet ran in circles. He'd hold the little guy there until the blanket couldn't twist anymore, then he'd DrOp him and start again. Several times I saw Duke come flying out of the trees at an altitude of about two feet off the ground. Seconds later, Zip's head would poke out. The gleam in his eye announced that he'd reinvented the sport of Dwarf Tossing. See, Duke, small as he is, was deadly. He'd attack the big horses, leaving bloody (albeit tiny) wounds on their necks and haunches. The other horses, lower on the totem pole than Zip, just threatened Duke, but didn't follow through. Zip, however, wanted a quick end to the dominance dispute, and he got it, as you can see here:  They were fast friends afterwards, but the process by which they got there--totally natural and anything but gentle--was rather startling to watch. I can also tell you that to keep Duke from castrating the other big horses, I resorted to a few days with an electronic collar, as advertised by Clinton Anderson. Is there a moral to my silly story? Uh, yeah. I wouldn't have had to do that had the big boys been more Zip-like in their messages to Duke. Once Duke was reasonably convinced that the geldings' butts were electrified, peace reigned in Humorland once more and has continued unsullied for more than a year. Success comes in many colors and sizes. Passive horses and passive owners tend to wind up battered and fried, while the clear communicators who give strong messages float merrily along on the wave of good will that flows from everyone knowing his/her place in the herd.
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| Member: canyon28 |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 11:39 am: Christine, that is SUCH a good point! We halter-break at birth and lead as soon as Mom stops challenging. Zip is a Zippo Pat Bars baby, but his mom is a OTTB x Paint (raced the Paint circuits in FL and OK) with attitude out her ears. The Morgan was old-style UVM all the way and should have been mellow, but had been mishandled as a weanling. The other QH and Paint babies I've worked with were quiet and calm from birth--almost unnaturally so. All had the same sire. My Three Bars mare was so incredibly willing that she never even saw a crop in her entire 19 years of life.It takes all kinds.
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: dtranch |
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| Member: kthorse |
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 9:05 am: Ditto, Dennis. My mother, a small Italian woman, favored the three-pack of wooden spoons. I'm none the worse for her "corrections". Liliana, not one poster here--NOT ONE--has advocated random assaults with "the schooling whip" or any other object. Why you persist in generalizing and adopting an accusatory stance is difficult to understand, and we still have no common ground for a definition of "abuse". In my tenure with horses I've dealt with close to 100 of all ages and personality types over the course of 45 years. In all that time, I've resorted to a dressage whip with perhaps four of them, and in each case the issue was safety, and the correction was quick and to-the-point. If a horse crowds me, I stick out my elbow so he hits that first. Is that abuse? A baby nuzzling in a friendly way is fine. A baby nuzzling then nipping repeatedly to test his ability to get a rise out of me isn't fine and will have his head shoved away and be reprimanded verbally. Is that abuse? A stud colt attempting to mount me gets my elbow--hard!--in his chest and more if he continues. Is that abuse? From what I've read here, the posters are versed in everything from John Lyons' techniques to TTEAM work and on down the list of gentle methodologies. If you followed the "Natural Horsemanship" thread, you must know how intensely this group wishes to be as kind and loving towards their horses as they possibly can. I have yet to see anyone write that respect requires "beating a horse into submission". You have asked no questions regarding the specifics of any of our experiences (including Denese's) or training methods, yet you continually criticize. If you have a purpose to your goading, please share it. I'm curious as to where this is headed. |
| Member: christel |
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| Member: christel |
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| Member: tuckern |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 11:39 am: Dwarf Tossing! hahahaha What an image i have in my mind from your description !!! I've always wondered how my horses would react to a mini. I do have two sheep that live with the horses, and often find the sheep sleeping underneath the horses, using them as shade, but wonder if they'd react differently to a mini horse. They'd probably look at me, and wonder if I'm gonna turn them into a dwarf too, lol. Chris I've been wondering too what happened to Denese, and wonder how she chose to handle her filly. I hope we didn't scare her off!  *sigh* On a more serious note, I was quite insulted to be called a horse abuser just because I strive to understand the language of horses, and use that language to achieve leadership in my "herd". My point in all of this is that I just don't want to see anyone get hurt. We work 1000+ pounds of living, breathing energy here. Rules have to be established with them. Nicole |
| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: boomer |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 1:51 pm: Liliana, I'm not so sure you understand what most of us are saying because I'm really confused by your posts. Maybe you are just extremely lucky that your horses have never had any negative behaviour? Lucky indeed. I am very interested in your answer to Aileen's question. What also would be your reaction to lets say a 2 year old testing boundaries by pinning ears, spinning to kick and generally challenging your every move? it happens...and please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to make you feel challenged or ganged up on, I am truly interested on how you would handle a situation like this, the sharing of different techniques is very valuable! I appreciate your response
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| Member: jmarie |
Posted on Friday, Feb 23, 2007 - 11:36 am: Nicole, the image can't begin to rival the reality.
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| Member: stina |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 9:24 pm: Hello allI have been away for a few days so I’m just checking my mails, I will try an answer everybody’s questions if I miss any of them please forgive me! Also I know it will be long so please try and read it with an open mind. I will use one of my horses as an example, and try to explain why I don’t think that striking a horse is necessary. And going back to the origin of this thread, we were talking about a one month old filly and not a ten year old horse that know its strength, and can be dangerous! In answer to most questions, I always try to find out why horses react in an aggressive or negative manner. I know that most of the time we acquire horses that have had many different owners who have had many different ways of training so just like when we meet someone for the first time one has to get to know their personalities. One of my horses was “loved” by his previous owner; however, he kept Chechen by himself on a big grassing field without castrating him for 10 years, breaking rule number one, they are gregarious as we know, Peter was a very big tall fellow about 6’ 5” and heavy with it. When Chechen was a colt Peter allowed him to play boxing with him, he thought it was cute, as Chechen grew up and got stronger the play became dangerous resulting with Chechen knocking Peter on the ground! Of course this was dangerous! So Peter got a stick and hit him hard to control him, then, Peter had to leave the island and gave Chechen away, when his new owners tried to ride him, the horse proceeded to try and mount a mare passing by with a rider on and while he was being ridden! Of course they got the whip on him and punished him, any way to make a long story short. Eventually Chechen became so aggressive that he was left tied up to a tree with pvc tubes on his legs without food and water to die. He was considered a monster, and he was, indeed he was. Some one called me and that’s how my collection of horses started in Cozumel. This horse had been hit so many times by so many trainers that he hated humans and he discovered that he could send them flying and hurt them if he wanted. I had to start from scratch with him, I had to gain his trust and convince him that I would not harm him, I gave him carrots and apples talked to him, and gradually began to approach him, we managed to cut the tubes from his legs after three days as they were pressing and stopping the blood stream, admittedly some times I would loose my patience in which case I just got out walked for a bit counted to a million and came back, after about three weeks I started brushing him but first I allowed him to smell the brush and allowed him to get familiar with it, I brushed him very gently at first and then firmly to clean his coat, after a bit he realized it was a great massage and he enjoyed it, some times he would push me against the wall and I just pushed him back to position firmly but not hitting him. In his particular case if anyone approached him with a stick he would fight back. Also I had to find out what feed agreed with him as corn made him loopy so I cut the corn, and so on. I convinced him that I was a friend and gained his trust I’ve had him for six years and now he is a gentle trusting horse, still Alfa still the boss in the herd but gentle, the only time he might give a hint of “leave me alone” is when he is eating, although I hate people bugging me when I’m eating and normally I let him enjoy his meal in peace, he now knows that some times I need to pick his feet or something while he is eating, he may not be amused but he puts up with it! So basically what I do is gain their trust, I don’t beg them to be my friends as someone stated before, I am firm but I really try to find out the history behind them and approach each problem at the time, repeating the lesson from A to B and C all the way to Z. every day. In other words I reinforce what they have learned first and then go into the new letter sort of speak. As I mentioned before what I try to avoid is allowing them to know their strength, each horse is an individual as we know, and has to be treated as such. I do stand my ground and being gentle intelligent animals they soon realize that we are not their enemies. Aileen, why does your horse rear? it is also a defence mechanism, usually is out of fear and when a good relationship has been established it should not happen. For example the helper that I send flying knew perfectly well how I treated my horses, but he decided that he knew best! To make life easier for him he would lead mum but let the then two months old colt just follow mum, which breaks the schooling of head collar and lid rope to go from a to b, resulting in baby galloping and kicking his heels up in the air instead of having the control of the head collar and lid rope that I had established. My horses know that head collar means they are under my control and they behave, if they try to pull away they get a tag on the head collar and a walk on or what ever I need to do at the time. What I have tried to explain is, that before we get the stick, and I know sometimes we feel like getting a gun! We try and find out the root of the problem. I know that some times horses measure people and play up accordingly, but, it usually happens when people are scared of them or allow a behavior one day and not another. Yes they have to be disciplined, and repeating the instruction time and time again is what gets results. I know that all in HA love their horses otherwise nobody would bother writing their opinions or experiences. Anyone that would like to see for themselves is welcome. In time when I have the yard as I want to have it perhaps some of you will be able to come and stay! It has not been my intention to offend anybody I was simply giving an opinion on what works for me. If any of you has an specific problem that might like to share with me directly at my e-mail address I will be happy to give an opinion I don't claim to be prefect! perhaps what makes the difference is the fascination I have for horses that has lead me to study each of their individual expressions also I talked to them as I'd talk to you or anyone else. And it works with most of my animals, including my turkey! Not the tortises I don't talk to them Liliana |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 10:40 am: Thank you Liliana!My horse doesn't rear at me, or buck, he's almost perfect My friend has a challenge in working with a yearling arabian. He is frightened, so he rears and strikes in fear (nothing my friend is doing, past experiences). What would you do at the moment he reared and struck at you? Would you correct him? Walk away? How would you teach this horse? I and my friend understand completely that this will take time, I'm only asking about what you would do at the moment he does the rear/strike. Thank you and bless you for taking in the abused horses you have
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 5:34 pm: Ah something very important, when a horse challenges you do not look him in the eye as it is a threat and as we know they are stronger, so before you get their trust is best to turn around, turning means you win, I know, but it is better to deal with the problem in a civilize manner than to argue is it not.Once they trust you they would walk through a bomb fire knowing that you are the leader and would not put them in harms way! BTW it is figure of speech please do not try it as you'd both be BBQ
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| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 1:45 pm: Ok, I'm really confused now... lolI stand still, I stand square, but I have no stick, I'm not jumping at the horse, I'm standing... is that really mean? If I turn I welcome the horse to come into me...I don't want to do that. And no... I'm quite sure it wouldn't work with a herd of wild horses, Liliana, I'm talking about one horse being silly and playful, not scared. I wish you didn't live so far away so you could see with your own eyes the relationship I have with my horse and the relationship with my lease mare that has improved daily since the day I gave her a light slap on the chest. |
| Member: mrose |
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| Member: maggienm |
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| Member: sunny66 |
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| Member: dres |
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| New Member: 153337 |
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| Member: liliana |
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| Member: mrose |
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| Member: liliana |
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 1:04 pm: Sooo we both have wonderfully well trained babies, and Aileen go enjoy your wine Just kidding
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