|
|
Discussion on Broodmare in training
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:32 am:
I need some opinions. I have a 17 year old broodmare who hadn't been handled much before I got her a year ago. She is extremely skittish, runs from people..to where you have to corner her to touch her and then she shakes and shakes. She will eat out your hand with time and coaxing. But otherwise she needs to be sedated for vet care or farrier care because she gets so scared she panics and kicks and just goes nuts. She doesn't have a mean bone in her body, she never pins her ears, turns her butt or anything else considered aggressive. My question is, I've had her in professional training for 60 days now and she really hasn't come very far..I mean hardly at all. Do you think she is just older and needs more time or could it be this trainer isn't working with her enough? I do have my doubts but don't want to be accusatory with him. I just thinks she should be farther after this much time. You still can't come up to her without her taking off. She still shakes and shakes if you do corner her and halter her.
|
Member:
freshman
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 2:47 am:
Wow, this mare must have had some seriously bad experiences. It does seem to be taking an unusually long time to improve her response.
My first assumption would be that the trainer must not be investing as much time in her as he should. But in my experience, these horses usually just need consistent good handling rather than a specific training technique, and it surprises me that the mare would still show such an extreme fear response after a year in a good situation. The mare should be farther along, even without intensive training. This suggests that there is something abnormal about the mare's response to the efforts that the people around her are making. Not the trainer's fault in this case.
The trainer should be communicating with you regularly regarding the horse's progress. If the horse is not responding as expected to the methods that the trainer uses, the trainer should speak up and let you know about the problem. A good trainer will have proven their work with numerous horses, both to their clients and to themselves. They should be confident enough in their abilities that they have no shame in telling the owner that they are not making the expected progress with your horse.
I think that it is impossible to speculate on the nature of your mare's problem without a more detailed history and description of her problem behaviors. It is very sad, though, that she is so extremely afraid of people that she cannot respond to their kindness and efforts to connect with her. She obviously has a troubled past, and is very lucky to be in a home like yours that is willing to help her. All the best to you and her.
|
Member:
cheryl
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 8:55 am:
Patricia, I have a 29 yo TB mare that I rescued from slaughter 20 years ago. For the first 10 years I had her just walking past her stall would send her bouncing to the back corner. She flinched anytime she was touched. I tried clicker training with her because she was watching intently while I was playing with a stall bound horse. In two sessions of about 15 minutes each, I could run in circles around her, throw my hand out suddenly to touch her any where on her body. I don't know who did her ground work - or how they did it or where the fear came from - don't think it was abusive but was probably a lot more heavy handed than it needed to be. She has retained every thing I taught her with the clicker. It's sorta funny - I had always considered her rather dull - not the case at all. She picks up on clicker training much faster than my other horses. Clicker training just seems to be the fastest and safest way to work through a horses fears. You might give it a try.
Cheryl
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 11:36 am:
Thanks you guys. She has had a good home with me, kind treatment and she's been with my other horses who just love people and she's seen that. I'm just so frustrated and I feel terrible for her. My heart just goes out to her. She was with a band of broodmares at a large ranch before I got her. The owner decided to get rid of them (after breeding them) because he wanted to change his direction of breeds. She's a registered QH. She had a filly last April, which I still have and she wasn't at all mean and let us handle the baby. It's just strange. You can see in her eye she is a really sweet soul and wants to learn. This trainer is supposed to be just gentling her as I don't want too much from her, just to be handled and cared for so the vet and farrier don't have such a hard time and we can love on her and brush her and that kind of stuff..maybe I'll try the clicker training sometime. I wonder how much longer I should trust this trainer. He doesn't give me any updates, I have to call and call before I get a return call.
|
Member:
cheryl
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:06 pm:
I was absolutely astounded at the change in Lady. I just can't stand having an animal be afraid of me - and she very obviously was. Now she is so easy to handle - and just loves it when I come out with the clicker.
Speaking personally - no one who wasn't giving me a running summary of what was happening with my horse would have him over night. A lot of trainers don't take the time to deal with fear and all that can do is lead to much bigger problems. Until the fear is dealt with very little if any progress is going to be made. Of course, this is just my very narrow minded opinion.
Cheryl
|
Member:
alden
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 1:23 pm:
I don't know the process you went through to find this trainer, but it doesn't speak well of their ability if the horse isn't making progress after 60 days!
The worst case I've personally seen was a young horse, terrified of people, would fight if cornered and had hurt people; and he was a lap dog after two weeks. Granted this was a very talented trainer, but gentling done correctly isn't a lengthy process.
I'd suggest the trainer should be giving you, at the very least, weekly progress reports. And it's high time to be looking for alternatives to this trainer.
Good day,
Alden
|
Member:
amara
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 1:29 pm:
is this the same mare you posted about last summer?..
it may not be that the trainer is doing anything wrong, but that he's not doing the right thing for her...there is no one way to "get to Rome", and his road may just be the wrong road.. some horses do not tolerate traditional training and gentling methods at all... my little arab used to shake and shake and shake (after hours of trying to catch him) when i first got him.. he was handled traditionally only.. after 3 days of very non traditional methods he was coming right up to me whenever i entered his paddock..(and no more shaking!)
so this may not be a bad trainer but not the right trainer for this horse...and i definately dont condone his lack of response to your phone calls...as alden said, at least weekly progress reports with a horse like this are necessary...
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 2:04 pm:
Ditto all above ... this is a long time not to have resolved the "trust" issue. I don't know what your plans are, but nothing meaningful in training can happen until this is accomplished.
As for the communication, there is no excuse for not discussing with the owner ... and progress reports are certainly not unreasonable.
Only comment on the trainer is that if his / her method has not worked in this length of time, he either needs another method .. or you need another trainer.
DT
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 2:16 pm:
Yes, Melissa, this is the same gal. I am so disappointed that this is going on with her. I was given his name by a friend of mine. I need to go with my gut and maybe get her to a new trainer soon. I've already paid a little over $2000, I paid Jan-March with nothing to show. It's not the money (well, it is money) but I just expected much much more and he promised more and he's not giving me any updates. I am so upset. Can you give me some info on the non-traditional method? I don't want to pry but I do know he really likes the John/Josh Lyons methodology. He said he apprenticed under Josh for three months..
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 5:17 pm:
Boy, I'm inclined to say "bring her home." It is one bad strike against the trainer that she doesn't show progress in 60 days, but not communicating is the other two strikes in my opinion. There are a lot of ways to get this mare comfortable with people, especially if she's not aggressive. If she's still this fearful after 60 days with this person, either she's going backwards or nothing is being done with her. In either case, she's better off with you at home. Get some books, videos, or whatever and try it yourself. I'd start her like you would an untouched youngster. Do you have a roundpen? If so, you're halfway there. I've seen Josh Lyons at clinics, and he's much more aggressive than his dad I think. Maybe too much for your mare. Many trainers can do a lot from the saddle, but totally neglect the horse's basic need to have a leader they trust. Ground work isn't very glamorous and certainly wouldn't pay the bills for a trainer, so they are anxious to get on the horse and show progress that way. Lots of stuff gets skipped, and for many horses it works out ok, but it sure isn't going to for your mare. She needs ground work.
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 7:53 pm:
Hi Julie, I totally agree with you. I think I'll take your advice and bring her home.
|
Member:
freshman
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 12:23 am:
I think that this is the right move, in light of the fact that this trainer isn't communicating with you about your mare's progress (or lack thereof). A good trainer would have openly talked with you about the fact that he isn't able to meet the goals and expectations that you have set for him and the mare. His reaction to your pulling the horse out of training will also be telling--the only appropriate response from a trainer in this situation is a gracious parting and expression of good will and luck with the horse, and a hope that you will follow-up with him about the mare's progress at home or in another program.
|
Member:
amara
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 1:42 pm:
sometimes its not whether or not someone is "rough" with a horse, but whether any "necessary roughness" is done within the natural herd etiquette... that is somthing that is frequently missing with a lot of trainers-the understanding of horse etiquette...
not that i'm saying you should be rough with this horse.. you cannot give recommendations without seeing the horse and seeing where her distrust comes from...she might need someone to be strong so she can feel that there is a leader, or she might need someone to be soft...
my little scared to death arab actually required some pretty strong handling so that he could feel that i was a leader who was strong enough to lead... we did some pretty heavy sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous system responses for the first several days before i was able to go quiet with him...
like we discussed last summer with your horse she has very "wild horse" reactions and will probably react best with someone who understands herd etiquette...she's most likely scared to death right now because nothing in her world makes sense, and no one can speak the language that she speaks to help her understand...all the softness in the world wont matter if the two of you are speaking different languages...
and if she has been ridden by this trainer, then it will probably make everything even worse...
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 7:17 pm:
She was there for 1 hour and he saddled her up and jumped on her..oh, god...
|
Member:
alden
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 7:56 pm:
Looks like you nailed the problem down. I can't imagine any scenario where I get on a new, green, horse in one hour.
The good news is there is still hope for her, a good trainer can still help this mare find her safe place.
Good day,
Alden
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 11:55 pm:
Oh please, hook up the trailer and go get the poor girl! Wish I was near, I'd go pick her up for you! She will need some time once you get her home to adjust and feel safe, then you can start gaining her trust. It sounds as if she's not unruly, just scared--is that right? I just hate the thought of her spending another day with this "trainer." Alden's right and he's a trainer too!
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 12:07 am:
I'll pick her up tomorrow for sure. Alden, you are a trainer? I didn't know that. Thanks you guys, I can always count on you to help out.
|
Member:
dtranch
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 8:48 am:
I think I mentioned the "trust" issue earlier. I would not have backed this horse until after a week or 2 of ground work and bonding .. especially if the fear was evident early on. The problem with a lot of trainers is that they get so focused on the rideability that they skip many important steps in the early stages. I always tell my clients that it is absolutely worthless to have a horse that is rideable if you have to fight them on the ground to get them tacked up and ready.
I know this is not the case with you, but a lot of people feel like they are wasting their training dollars if the trainer is not in the saddle all the time. This is just another example of why the communication between trainer and owner is so important. It is certainly not an excuse, but it might be that this trainer gives in to the pressure to be in the saddle.
Bottom line .. I am with Alden on this one.
DT
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 11:24 am:
I told him that I didn't need her to be ridden, I only wanted her gentled so I could handle her and get her over her fear. I tried for months and months and we (my husband and I) just couldn't get her beyond a certain point. We chose a professional because we are not trainers, we can of course work with our horses and they all are very well behaved but to get her past this wall she's got around her we just needed help. The thought of her living in fear is just agonizing for us. We will keep her for the rest of her life because of this (well, we really really like her too) and wanted to be able to give her the care and love that the rest of the herd has..oh, and I just learned last night that he video taped his riding her. He did this after my husband and I left..shouldn't consent be an issue since it was my horse? He wants to use it for his advertising
|
Member:
amara
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 12:29 pm:
i sure hope you've picked her up and taken her home at this point... i take back everything i say about this guy not necessarily being a bad trainer... not only did he go against your wishes in just wanting the mare gentled and not ridden, he was riding her right after she arrived?...i wouldnt ride a mare as you described for probably a few months upon receiving her!... she's not even at step one yet!!!
i'm not sure of the legalities, but you can certainly talk to other horse people about your experience, even local vets, as long as you use only facts...
good luck, sure wish i was closer...and sure hope she's home by now... give her some time to hang loose before you try again...
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 3:05 pm:
Well, right now I'm sitting in my office in the middle of downtown Seattle so it's out of the question to get her today. I have just spoken to the trainer and informed him that I will be picking her up tomorrow afternoon. Thanks again everyone. You confirmed exactly what I was feeling.
|
Member:
judyhens
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:25 pm:
Hi Patricia,
How does the mare interact with other horses? Over the years we have had a few horses that we purchased who really hadn't been handled and were extremely frightened/ trembly/ shaky around people. Very different from the ones that we raise from birth. We have a live in trainer who is kind, gentle, and horses seem to instinctually trust him. Most of these unhandled horses have turned around rapidly. Within a few days of being handled gently, brushed, given treats, spending quality time with them several times per day, talking to them, etc., they just adapt beautifully. However, I can think of two horses who stand out as extremely difficult to turn around. One was a beautiful 3 year old mare we purchased in the 90s. She was put in training in the state we purchased her from for a year. She was with a trainer we know and respect. The mare became "manageable", but his reports were consistently that she was very reactive, continued to spook, etc. We brought her to Texas after a year. She was aggressive, difficult to relate to, didn't want to be handled, would pin her ears. We realized that she didn't fit our program mentally (we have a lot of children and outsiders who visit) but that we couldn't sell her at all unless she turned around. Finally we turned her out with other horses and foals. She was terrified. Even the foals chased her. She had absolutely NO social skills. Not with people. Not with horses. We ultimately paired her up with a very quiet, calm, people loving mare who was gentle with her. It took a very long time for her to even learn how to groom her new friend. With time and lots of love, she did turn around. Our daughter never gave up on her, and after three years of working with her, made national high point junior on her in both associations. Was she ever 100% trustworthy? Absolutely not. She still had very occasional "panic attacks" when presented to new situations. However, she lost her aggression, she developed a trust of humans, and became a good riding horse - for an experienced rider. She was ultimately sold to someone who was told her whole history...the negatives as well as the successes. Nothing was held back. They wanted a foundation mare for their program. They took her to her new home, she was not asked to do much except produce foals (her breeding was impeccable - which is why we purchased her to begin with). She adapted beautifully, has produced people loving foals who are now winning championships at regional and national levels. How much time did it take to reach this level of trust? Years!
We are dealing with another one currently. She has been here two years. Not able to touch her at all when she arrived as a three year old. We spent an inordinate amount of time with that mare the first year she was here. Her ability to interact with other horses was great. Just not happy with people. No aggression. Just fear. Difficult to catch. Now, a couple of years later, she has become an excellent riding horse, is easy going under saddle, and is a great mother. She still has her moments when she doesn't want to be caught, but is definitely not trembling. But her development of trust was measured in months, perhaps years, NOT in days. 60 days after we got her she was better - but not even close to all that she could be. I think these two cases show that, although the vast majority turn around rapidly, some simply need more time and patience. Your mare may fall into that group.
In years of training and lots and lots of horses (30 to 40 at any one time), these two were the most difficult to turn around. The first had two different but excellent trainers. I believe that she had to develop social skills before anything would work. The other just moved much slower than we normally see. I don't believe that either horse had been physically abused.
It may be that this will just be a much slower process than you had hoped for or imagined. I don't think it can be pushed. Just take it day by day. You mention she is a broodmare. Is she currently pregnant?
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your mare. Hopefully things will go well for you.
Judy
0 0
\_/
|
Member:
boomer
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:34 pm:
No, she's not pregnant. She was a pregnant broodmare when I bought her (site unseen) from a rancher in eastern washington. They failed to tell me she was unhandled. She's fine with the other horses. She is near the bottom of the pecking order but not the very bottom. My problem is I've just got some suspicions that this trainer isn't working with her. I don't know what to think at this point. I am just doing a lot of thinking tonight..
|
|
|
