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  Discussion on Bit Questions
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Member:
Sefiroth

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 - 7:50 pm:

What exactly is the difference in action in a horse's mouth between a broken bit such as a snaffle and an unbroken such as a mullen and a 3 piece such as a billy allen or a french link?

Also a curb bit is something that has a shank right? So a Tom Thumb would be a curb bit even though it has a broken or snaffle mouth? I'm not sure of the true definition of snaffle.

Thanks in advance for clarifying these terms! I get so confused looking at the catalogs with the zillions of different types of bits.

~Sharon
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 17, 2002 - 9:19 pm:

Hi, Sharon,
There are really only two kinds of bits . . . . snaffles and curbs (not counting hackamores/bosals). All snaffles work on a direct action principle. . . . Example: right rein tightens and puts direct pulling pressure on the right corner of the horse's mouth, as well as a direct pushing pressure on the left corner of the horse's mouth. All snaffles have a curb chain or strap and have the reins attached to a shank (of any length) so that holding back on one or both reins, rocks the bit on the bars of the horse's mouth and clamps the lower jaw between the bit and the curb chain/strap. The shorter the shank, the "milder" the bit (unless the rider is jerking or yanking on the reins). A kimberwicke is a bit that has a curb chain, but if the reins are attached through the D-Rings rather than through the slots on the rings, the bit works more like a snaffle with the rein action putting direct pressure on the horse's mouth. There are broken curbs and broken snaffles, just as there can be straight mouthpiece curbs and straight mouthpiece snaffles. I use a Dr. Bristol on some of my horses. I was told that it is a very severe bit when compared to a regular broken mouthpiece snaffle. I have not found that to be true. I feel that the link in the center of the mouthpiece provides more relief for the horse's tongue, and that the bit provides an even greater opportunity for lightness because of the way the two sides of the bit move more independently of one another due to the center link. The center link also reduces the "nutcracker" action of the sides of the bit on the bars of the horse's mouth when both reins are held back. I have found that all of my horses do well in a snaffle, and that neck reining can be taught with a snaffle, too, so I haven't found the need for a curb on any of my horses for the last 8 years. Some horses have less room in their mouths and require narrower mouthpieces, while other horses can accommodate hollow, egg-butt snaffles. A mullen mouth bit can be a snaffle or a curb . . . . if it has shanks and a curb/chain strap, it is a curb bit.
Hope this helps a bit, pun intended :-)
Holly
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 12:09 am:

LOLOLO Sorry I am laughing at the fact I asked/posed a question like that a few years back and have never received a straight answer...

Meaning that all bits I believe are there to confuse you... for ever and ever... I never could understand the gal with a tack box full of bits (literally 100's of different bits)... I just get so confused...

IMHO the simplest and shortest.... Unless of course you have a trainer who is using and trying other items for specific behaviour problems....

Just turn that page.... in those catalogs... its like diamonds in the sears catalog....

joj
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Sharon

If your horse responds to a Dr Bristol but you don't want to be using a bit that is considered severe and is banned in many competitions, try a French link snaffle as it is milder but with a similar action. Some of the information in Holly's post is incorrect, I think (snaffles all having curb chains or straps...?)

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Equus

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

Oops! Slight typo that may confuse those trying to read and understand your post, Holly. Third sentence you said "All SNAFFLES have a curb chain or strap and have the reins attached to a shank (of any length) so that holding back on one or both reins, rocks the bit on the bars of the horse's mouth and clamps the lower jaw between the bit and the curb chain/strap." I believe you meant curb bit here. :-)
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 2:21 pm:

I have a question on this topic. My gelding doesn't seek contact, as a matter of fact, he avoids it by going behind the bit when I have a strong feel. He is young and just starting his training, but I would like to make sure the bit isn't the reason he is doing this. An example is when I ask for him to slow incorectly, ie not using my seat, and too much hand, he curls his neck and just keeps on trucking. I know I am not doing this right, and it is my fault, and I don't do this all the time. I just have not ever had a horse that didn't respond to a pull on the reins by slowing down. Anyway, I am using a happy mouth d ring on him. Does anyone have any ideas on what I should try? I am thinking Myler, mullen happy mouth, and french link (I have one of each of these already). Any opionions?
Alicia
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 2:54 pm:

My teacher agrees with Holly that French links are milder than plain snaffles -- no upward action on the roof of the mouth, no pinching at the corners.

Good post, Holly.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 3:20 pm:

Oooops! So sorry guys. Thank you Heather for pointing out my typo . . . . . and I even proof read it before I posted . . . . . jeesh. . . .
Holly
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 5:36 pm:

Oh, Alicia,
As far as your horse avoiding contact . . . .
Has he always been ridden by you? Horses come behind the bit when they are trying to avoid the pain of it. Some horses will tune out the pain and lean into the bit causing them to become heavier and heavier on the bit, while others will come behind. (Your horse is probably a very sensitive guy . . . . this is good :-))
My tack would be to get him used to some light pressure by doing lots of one rein work . . . . Some "give to the bit" work will help him to learn that the bit isn't something to be afraid of and that it is okay to feel the light pressure and then give to it. Also . . .. I don't know if John Lyons teaches this technique in the same sequence as he used to do, but you can teach a horse to push into pressure if you hold a steady (not harsh) upward pressure on one rein and don't release the pressure until the horse pushes into the bit. (Do this hundreds of times . . . . always releasing for the correct response.) As in any training, don't give the reward until the correct action is given to you. This technique will teach a horse to lower his head whenever you want him to do so. You release whenever the head gets to the desired height. I don't want to give you more teaching here than you need. If you would like something clarified, I will be happy to try to do so.
Holly
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 5:44 pm:

Alicia,

I ride my mare, Mele in a Myler snaffle which she likes a lot. Also, when stopping her I take a deep breath and while letting it out I DrOp my seat and say whoaaaa, long and low. Rarely do I need to engage my hands.
Member:
Sefiroth

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 5:58 pm:

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been riding my mare mostly in a Billy Allen which was the only thing other than an full cheek snaffle I had laying around that would fit her. She's got a wide mouth and the roof of her mouth is rather low. I tried the snaffle originally but she tossed her head a lot when asked for a stop..I took a closer look inside her mouth and noticed the low roof. I tried the billy allen and she's tossing her head less, but still doing it. I mostly just trail ride her so I dont need anything fancy. She listens to the bit well and I think I have pretty soft hands. I was thinking of trying either a mullen mouth type bit or a french link next to see if we can get rid of the head tossing all together. What would you guys suggest?

~Sharon
Member:
Patricia

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 8:13 pm:

Sharon,

Have you considered NOT using a bit, especially as you are mostly trail riding? I took my mustang gelding out of a snaffle and put him in a simple sidepull which is most often used just as a training device. Although he didn't really complain about the bit, I've found that the little bit of head tossing or grinding he may have done completely disappeared with the side pull. I suppose it depends on how much your horse pays attention to simple pressure as opposed to "bit" pressure, but I've been happy with the change. Since we are pursuing no discipline which requires fine tuning, this works well for me now.
Patricia
Member:
Sefiroth

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002 - 8:31 pm:

Patricia,

I have considered it. I used to have a 4 yr old QH who was just getting his canines in and was very fussy with a bit in his mouth. I got one of those Lindell side pulls for him which worked nicely as I mostly rode him in the pasture or arena.

I'm not sure I'd trust this mare with one though. When riding out on the trails with other horses she's the most laid back thing you'd ever see. Going out alone is a totally different story. She requires constant rider input to keep her going the way YOU want to go rather than where she wants to go (to the nearest 4 legged animal!) as she's pretty herd sour. Since I mostly ride alone I feel more comfortable using a bit. She's an OTT Standardbred pacer and can do Jeckle (high strung dancing prancing foaming at the mouth race horse one minute) and Hyde (laid back ol plug the next) like a pro even at 18 years old. :-) Even when she's worked up though she still responds well to cues, it just takes more of em!

~Sharon
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Dec 19, 2002 - 10:41 am:

Leilani and Holly,
What I really need to do is look inside his mouth. I can't beleive I've never done that. That will be my first step. Maybe the happy mouth is too fat for him, or maybe he has a low palate, I haven't checked. I have owned him since birth, and only a few trainers have ridden him except me. I started him on a copper snaffle, then changed to this one. I think the evasion may be from not wanting to engage rather than pain. He doesn't avoid contact when doing something easy for him, just when doing something hard, which right now is canter transitions as he has not been cantered since August (I wrote about his injury on this list). We just started two days ago. Anyway, I will check his mouth and see what I can do. Thanks for the help!
Alicia
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Thursday, Dec 19, 2002 - 2:00 pm:

Alicia,

Ask your equine dentist about his mouth. She/he should be able to advise you about palate, tongue, bit placement/size/width issues.

Happy holidays.

Leilani
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Dec 19, 2002 - 2:27 pm:

Leilani,
Will do. That is a good idea!
Alicia
Member:
Kimlking

Posted on Friday, Dec 20, 2002 - 5:17 pm:

It is my understanding that the difference between a curb and a snaffle is simply that curb bits involve leverage, and snaffles do not. As Holly said, snaffles--of whatever type, straight- or broken-mouthed--are straight-pull bits. The action is all on the horse's mouth--pinching, pressing, pushing, whatever. Curb bits, on the other hand, do not act only on the horse's mouth and jaw, because they involve some amount of leverage--a little or a lot, depending on the length of the shank. They need some kind of under-the-chin strap or chain to work. A Tom Thumb is a broken-mouthed curb, then, and not a long-shanked snaffle.

The curb bit itself acts as a fulcrum for the leverage, similar to the point of balance of a teeter-totter (without the fulcrum, a see-saw is just a board). Through the fulcrum, the action at one end determines the effect at the other.

What is leveraged at the other end is the horse's poll, which is an extremely sensitive area. It is squeezed between the crownpiece of the bridle, which is attached to the bit via the cheekpieces, and the bit itself, while the lower jaw is similarly squeezed between the bit and the curb chain or strap. (You can see, then, that a rider using a long-shanked curb can easily put her horse's head in a brutal vise with too much rein pressure. That is why people should never ever use one until their hands and seat are very well developed. That is also why green horses should be kept in, or put back into a snaffle until it is time to refine their reliably correct responses to their new lessons.)

Re: Alicia's gelding avoiding contact--my Walker-Arab gelding, who was green-broke in a Spanish jaquima (bitless, "hackamore") would never get quiet in the sweetmouth D-ring snaffle that I tried to put him in to continue his training. I finally tried a type of kimberwicke--I think it is called an Uxeter kimberwicke--that solved all our problems. What he didn't like about the snaffle was the broken mouth, the floppiness, sloppiness, whatever. He is very very sensitive and doesn't tolerate extraneous signals of any kind very well. The kimberwicke just sits quietly in his mouth, and transfers the rein cues cleanly and quietly. Any kimberwicke will do this, though. The really cool part about this particular kind is that it has no slots for the reins, just D's like your happy mouth. It has a curb chain. When the horse's head is properly positioned, the action is that of a snaffle, though--straight pull on the mouth, no leverage, no curb-chain action. But if he raises his head to avoid the straight pull, as many horses quickly learn to do, the reins just slip down to the bottom of the D's, and there is instant leverage available to be applied. Not much--the straight part of the D below the bit is only about an inch and a half long, but it's ample for having a discussion with your horse about his head position. I think this is a really great bit, and I wonder why it is so relatively difficult to find, and why more people don't use it.

I don't know if it would help with your gelding's avoidance pattern, though, since he gets behind the bit, unless he is avoiding the bit for the same reason my gelding was. This kimberwicke has worked so well for my horse that he actually seeks my hands, under all circumstances. When he is frightened--and he is easily frightened--and reflexively collects to be ready to run away from the scary woodpile/fire hydrant/blowing tarp, he breaks our constant light contact and instead of running for safety he frantically begins seeking my hands--while I am quickly shortening my reins. So that's an example of him getting behind the bit and stretching back out to meet it. I don't know, maybe your horse might be more comfortable and happy in one of these kimberwickes too.
Member:
Sross

Posted on Friday, Dec 20, 2002 - 8:56 pm:

Alicia-
My guy also likes to avoid the bit by coming behind. I checked with his previous rider (several years ago) and he used to try the same thing with her. I had the vet check him and sure enough there was a tiny wolf tooth that had escaped previous notice. We went ahead and removed it to be certain that his teeth weren't a problem. Then I switched him from a Dr. Bristol to a French Link, to make sure the bit wasn't a problem. He's become steadier as a result (although he will on occasion duck behind, particularly with other riders. My theory is that originally there may have been some discomfort, but now he's learned that he can avoid work by coming behind the bit.) If you have several different bits that fit him, why not try him in each one and see if he responds differently to the bits?
And as for horses that don't repond to a pull on the reins by slowing down-I used to ride a mare like that. The more you pulled, the faster she went. However, by sitting up straight and asking her to slow down with body, seat, & legs while releasing the contact, she'd respond every time. (We jokingly called it her emergency brake.) Lovely mare, as long as you played by her rules.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Monday, Dec 23, 2002 - 3:14 am:

Going behind the bit is also an evasion which horses that like to pull will use - it's not that the bit is uncomfortable so much as that they just want to go faster than you do... so they set their necks highly flexed to avoid the bit action. First step as advised by several in this thread is to try to use more legs and seat than hands even though this initially appears contradictory advice. Messing with lots of different bits is usually less effective unless there is an issue of mouth conformation.

However I do think there is a place for a "day to day" bit and a safety bit - use the gentlest safe bit you can for all normal activity, and something more effective if you go out cross country, hunting etc. That way you keep your horse's mouth as soft as possible without compromising on safety.

All the best

Imogen
New Member:
Robynb

Posted on Monday, Dec 23, 2002 - 8:03 am:

This is an interesting discussion. Kim said that a Tom Thumb bit is a curb - maybe the terms are different here in Australia, but I've used a Tom Thumb here that is a broken mouth snaffle with what we call cheeks - shortish shanks both above and below the bit ring. It has no curb chain/strap and the reins attach directly to the ring. It's designed appartently to stop the bit pulling through the mouth if you put a lot of pressure on one rein. It is a very popular bit for stockmen.

I don't know if they're available in the US, but there is a series of books here by Tom Roberts, a British/Australian horseman with many years experience. They are a bit dated now, but one of them is called "Horse Control and the Bit" and contains lots of discussion about leverage vs direct action, mouth conformation and more. Lots if illustrations too. It's a good read and very interesting. For me it cleared up a lot of confusion. If anyone's interested, I can give details of where you can get it here.

Robyn.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Dec 23, 2002 - 9:50 am:

A Tom Thumb is a curb . . . typically, the reins are attached to the end of the shanks and there is a curb chain, so it is used as a leverage bit. If the curb chain is removed and the reins are attached to side rings at the ends of the mouthpiece (I don't think I've seen Tom Thumbs with a side ring . . . . Pelhams, but not Tom Thumbs) then it would be used as a snaffle. If it is used with the reins attached to the ends of the shanks and NO curb chain, then it is a hybrid, I guess :-). I would just say that it is being used incorrectly, and that if someone wants to use a snaffle, then he/she should buy a snaffle. There isn't a need for the shanks if there is no curb strap/chain.
Holly
Member:
Willie

Posted on Monday, Dec 23, 2002 - 5:51 pm:

I think I can help clarify -- what Robyn is describing is a full-cheek snaffle, not a tom thumb. A full-cheek snaffle is simply a snaffle bit -- with a single or double joint -- and the reins attach to the bit rings, not to shanks, and there's no leverage -- the bit works on the corners of the horse's mouth just as with any snaffle. The special feature of a full-cheek snaffle is that there's a vertical rod on each side of the mouthpiece that exerts a little pressure against the side of the horse's muzzle if he's a bit difficult to turn, or if he tends to open his mouth and there's danger of the bit rings getting pulled into his mouth. Full-cheek snaffles are usually used with small leather keepers that connect the upper cheeks of the bit to the cheekpieces of the bridle, to keep the bit steady in the mouth. (Another reason for using the full-cheek.) The full-cheek snaffle looks like this:
o|--|o

A tom thumb is, as Holly describes, a fairly mild form of short-shanked curb with a jointed mouthpiece -- and it should properly be called a "tom thumb curb" not a "tom thumb snaffle". It looks kinda like this, with reins attached to the rings at the bottom of the shanks and a curb strap or chain attached to the mouthpiece rings:

o--o
| |
o o

Okay, well, the pieces aren't lining up the say they're supposed to. Forgive the stick figures -- best thing to do is go to an online catalog that shows both bits, compare the pictures, and ignore the fact that they'll probably refer to the tom thumb as a snaffle.

Happy Holidays!

Sarah
Member:
Robynb

Posted on Monday, Dec 23, 2002 - 9:34 pm:

Thanks Sarah, I do mean a full cheek snaffle. There are 2 common full cheek snaffles here - the FM, which has very long cheeks and what we call a Tom Thumb which has shorter cheeks. As if all of this is not confusing enough without different terminology between countries.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Robyn
Member:
Conniep

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 4:17 pm:

I'm going to post this question here., I am thinking of having this procedure done on my mare.
"She files down the first jaw teeth smooth so that the bit does not rub the skin on the jaw bone and push it against a high sharp edge." HAs anyone done this? My mare is 15 and does a lot of head shaking. I'm a novice at horses and the whole bit thing is confusing as H**L to me. One day someone will explain it where it make sense and a light bulb will come on.
Thanks, Connie
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 6:46 pm:

Hi, Connie,
The equine dentist or vet may make a "seat" for the bit on the front molar on both sides of the lower jaw to make a more comfortable fit for the bit when pressure is added to it.
Holly
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