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  Discussion on Horse killed a goat that raised him from a foal.
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Member:
leslie1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 5:30 pm:

Hi all,
My neighbors horse killed a nanny goat that raised him from a foal. Pinned her in a corner and struck her to death, then licked the blood off her face. This goat raised him, was in same large corral with him for 10 years. Has anyone heard off this weird behaviour before? The neighbor is now terrified of him.
Happy Spring!!! Woot
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 5:54 pm:

Yikes!!!! How awful! Do you suppose the horse just realised "MOM" wasn't a horse? Or does the horse have some pain issues that are driving him berserk?

Very strange, keep us posted.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

I've never heard of this sort of sudden agression. Is this a gelding or a stallion?

I've seen plenty of injuries to small animals that get into the pasture with what turns out to be a horses that is agressive to them. Also plenty of accidental injuries to miniature horses that are pastured with full-sized horses. But these are usually innocent accidents or incidents of aggression to a smaller animal that wanders in the pasture. Not an attack on a well-accepted companion animal.

Hopefully this horse is vaccinated against rabies, in order to rule that out. If not, I'd recommend a strict quarantine. Toss feed over the fence, water it from outside the pen. It should be watched carefully for any strange behavior over the next few days, either neurologic signs or aggression. No sense in taking any risks if this is a rare rabies case.

Assuming that the attack was witnesed by the owners and was truely an unprovoked, aggresive act of stomping the goat to death, then the owners should handle the horse with much care in the future, especially with children and small animals. Never allow children to handle him or enter his enclosure,or be near him in any way.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 8:41 pm:

God Bless all in this situation. The poor goat and the horse, who hopefully doesn't have Rabies or any other disease to cause such a drastic change in neuro status. I am with Kristen pass the word on to isolate the horse and have them call the vet immediately so they can monitor the situation. I didn't think horses showed the same clinical signs with rabies as other animals (at least one vet told me that and correct me if I am wrong but I was also told equines couldn't pass it on which is why it's not law that you have to vaccinate for Rabies...however I might be foggy on that) but better be safe than sorry. Clearly this is a very drastic change in...hmmmm....mental status... or whatever you would call that in a horse.
Please keep us posted. How awful!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Mar 4, 2007 - 9:10 pm:

The only time I've seen a horse act so aggressively to a known companion was years ago when we boarded a very sweet big TB gelding. He suddenly became very unpredictable and would change from sweet to dangerous in a blink. He once charged so hard at me and the horse I was on that he bent the arena pipe fencing in a big "u" shape. There is no doubt in my mind that if he could have gone through the fence he would have killed me and the horse in a flash. He had to be put down and turned out to have a brain tumor.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 7:58 am:

Corrine your veterinarian is incorrect: there is no reason to believe horses cannot pass on rabies, it has been shown to be in the saliva of infected horses, so if you are bitten or exposed to any body secretions of a rabid horse you should be treated.

Horses do not often get the furious form of rabies but it happens (see the article on rabies) for more on this. However I do have a great-great-uncle-in-law who had to make a trip to the big city of Raleigh to have the dreaded series of injections after being attacked by a horse which was diagnosed with "hyDrOphobia". We have kept the original news story as a family keepsake.

But back to the above. Though examination and observation for rabies is prudent, this is not unusual behavior for a horse and they behave this way toward each other all the time, the problem is a goat is much more fragile and less able to protect itself or when all else fails run. I do find it a bit unusual with 2 animals that have been raised together and it makes me wonder had they recently been separated for awhile then put back together?
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 9:32 am:

Very interesting Dr. O. Thanks for the clarification. I think I may have remembered incorrectly but his response was in relation to my question as to why equine owners were allowed to give the vaccinations and with your dogs you have to get a license? Maybe it was someone standing there that said it's because they don't pass it on and he only said the part that they usually don't get the furious type? I don't know it was a long time ago but I do appreciate knowing the correct information.
Glad your great great uncle in law was okay after having to get the series of what I think were those huge stomach injections. Does anyone know why they were given in the stomach back then? Did it affect absorption? I have only given shots in the stomach like Heparin and insulin and they of course are tiny needles.
Oh and one more question. Why would the horse lick up the blood being a carnivore? Maybe he was trying to tend to the goat?

Leslie please keep us posted.

v/r
Corinne
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 10:59 am:

I will pass on the rabies info. thanks:-)
This horse also falls down when cantering. has for years. She said its like his front end stretches out too far (when cantering) and his front end falls. He has regular vet checks. Cant find reason for the falls.
The horse and goat have never been separated. The ladies husband wondered if the horse was trying to put the goat out of her misery. I dont know if a horse would do that but he was very tenderly licking the blood off nanny's face.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 11:33 am:

How old is this horse? Falls down when cantering sounds pretty scarey. I hope no one is on him at the time! I wonder what, if any, tests have been done on this horse. It really sounds like something neurological is going on, and I would wonder about a brain tumor also. This is sure not normal behavior!
Member:
muffi

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 1:29 pm:

Leslie - the comment on Tenderly Licking gave some credence to what I would of said. 10 Years old at least - how old was the Goat and was it ill? Do horses do Mercy Killing? Also In NM where I live we have these really pretty flowers called LOCO WEED. It drives horses crazy - litterally and if they eat too much they have to be put down or they can hurt people as well as themselves. Could this of been an Issue? SOmething bad ingested? (My Bet is on the mercy thing though)
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 3:11 pm:

Did the owners watch the horse kill the goat? or just assumed it was stomped to death out of aggression, versus it being an accident. and is it a gelding? or stallion? what makes them think this is something of an aggression and to be afraid of the horse from now on?


sad story...
Member:
tuckern

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 5:05 pm:

Hmm, I just don't believe that horses have the reasoning to kill out of mercy.

If a horse is dying in the wild, the rest of the herd will not kill it because they feel sorry for it, they will say their good-byes, and leave it behind. Horses are afraid of dead/dying things, and will give such a wide berth.

Now, a horse who has neurological problems is a whole different story because of the influences affecting it's brain, and it's thinking.

Sounds like this horse has something neurologic going on anyway, if it's falling down. I too would be interested to know the circumstances. What were the two doing before it happened? Was it feeding time? Did a barn-mate just leave, or come back? Was the horse excited, or did something startle him from a snooze? Did someone see it actually happen?

Very sad story, indeed, and please send my condolences to your neighbors.

Nicole
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 6:44 pm:

She said that she heard the goat screaming early a.m. and threw a robe on and ran out there to see the goat cornered by the horse, he was still striking nanny, the lady started yelling and he backed off, she went inside corral and could tell nanny was dead. So the lady went back inside her house to put some more clothes on and went back out to corral and he was licking blood off nanny's face.
This horse is only 10 years old. hasnt been ridden since he started falling , a few years back. I dont know what all the vet has tested for but I will find out more info from the lady cuz its very interesting. morbid but interesting.
The horse and the 2 goats live in the same 50x50 outside pen plus the horse has access to his inside stall and the goats have their own inside stall. The nanny goat was very,very old. Her wethered son lived in there too(now separated), but no attack on him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

Sara I disagree about pronouncing this not normal. Horses regularly chase each other around rearing, pawing, and biting at one another: to some degree this is play to some degree this is aggression and dominance behavior. It may have been an unlucky strike. More importantly the further clarification makes it clear we don't know exactly what happened from the latest update the goat may have already been down and the horse curious about it, creating injury incidentally.
DrO
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:24 pm:

Wow!!! My neighbor lady said to go to a website www.thehorse.com ... its free to join.
Search for " Carnivorous horse" . Her horseshoer told her about it. There are several articles on the website. ITs the weirdest thing. It totally fits what happened. EWWWWWW it even talks about the horses licking blood of dead animals.
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 9:53 pm:

there have been a few occasions where my goats were screaming bloody murder... top of the lungs screaming. nubians really loud cryers. My horse came running, and was extraordinarily upset over the sound of it. I would almost say she was unruly and un-able to be handled. rearing up. pacing, snorting, pawing at the fence, (like she was a TB not a 24 year old QH) She is normally a very quiet mare... Whether it was the pitch of the goat sound, or the fact that an animal was in pain/injured, i never figured out, but those episodes could have ended like this one, if my horse was actually in the pen, as opposed to outside it. My mare is also extraordinarily gentle with all of them. The goats, mini horse, etc. they are all pals. When we are all out together she is very mothering, but on that same note i have seen her sow her oats, and you better get out of the way if you are in it....

I wonder if nanny goat was dieing of bloat or something toxic, those do make them scream in pain at the last moments, and in doing so created a panic or confusion in the horse. Horse just made matters worse by trying to stop it...
Member:
morg1

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

What jojo said brought to mind a documentary I once saw about zebras. It showed a wildebeast calf that was bawling separated from its mother and the zebras moved in to kill it. Apparently, that is a normal reaction to that situation, because of the danger of predators hearing. Now, I'm not saying that this is even possible that the horse was behaving like the zebras, but it made me go hmmm...

I hope they find out what is wrong with the horse. I sure would hate to see it hurt a person.
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 11:26 pm:

I have heard of horses killing goats before. The reason I inquired about it was that I caught my gelding in the act of trying to kill my pigmy goat. I was horrified, found out later that this does happen sometimes.
To put my story in perspective . . .
The horse and goat have known each other for many years, almost thier entire life. The goat had the run of the entire property. He would "share" the horses hay at every feeding. To be honest, he did annoy the horse at feeding time. I am sure he thought it was just normal goat playing but the horses did not appreciate being butted while they were eating. He never butted them hard, more of a bump, he always stopped short of hard impact. Once I saw my gelding grab him by the scruff of the neck and give him a toss. The little stinker hit the ground, did a roll, and charged right back thinking it was all fun.
Long story short, I heard the goat screaming one day and came out to see my gelding with the goat pinned between his legs. He just kept biting the goat. The poor goat was exhausted and could not run away even after I chased off the horse. I imagine my gelding could have killed him if I had not come out. Turns out the goat did not have any permanent injuries. I watched both very carefuly after that. I guess the goat finally figured out that the horse did not want to "play". He never bothered that horse again, he still bugs the mares. I should also add that this gelding has always exhibited very studdy behaviour. I dont expect any of the mares that I have to get that aggressive with him. But I do keep an eye in things.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 7:56 am:

Shelly's story makes me think that the horse killed the goat much the same way a horse will go after a dog that sometimes chases the horse, sometimes just wanders around with the horse, sniffing piles and stuff. I have a mare that I have to constantly watch if a dog or even a cat is around under foot. She'll pin her ears and strike at 'em. Who's to say what she would do if her first strike stunned the cat or dog? Would she keep going? And then stand there and sniff, and/or lick the dead animal because it was someone she knew?
Member:
aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 9:03 am:

I saw a horse kill a goat once too. He tossed it in the air and bit and kicked it. This goat, however, was a visitor to the barn and the owners (of the horse and goat) thought it was cute how they were "playing" until the incident. The horse was put down and they found a tumor. The lady just put him down because he was dangerous, not because they had any other reason to suspect neurological difficulties, but it turned out to have a physiological reason in this case.
Alicia
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 9:59 am:

Makes perfect sense Karen. And would stand to reason that something like this is just instinctual. The horse does it out of instinct, although he's been trained to accept the goat (any animal). Therefore, lick his face in the end, when the goat is quiet. I'd be curious to see if they necropsied the goat.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 12:09 pm:

Would it be possible "something " else was in the area/ pen? and the horse was defending not killing? My friend has had goats and horses together for years so asked her and the only time something even close to this happened was when a dog came after one of the goats and her mare went after dog misssed dog but hit the goat and broke its leg. Leg healed so all survived except dog never came back ?? Cindy
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 1:13 pm:

K I just talked to neighbor lady. She said about 2 weeks before episode her and her hubby were out cleaning pen and the horse cornered nanny and was biting her. Of course they stopped it and everything was fine till he killed nanny. lemme clarify that when lady went out in her robe nanny was still alive and horse killed her in front of her. She said she had to rope the horse to catch it afterwards. She said put him in roundpen and worked and worked and worked him. Cuz she was "so mad". She said that he hasnt been the same since.. as in he is nice to her now. She said she always had problem with him being pushy towards her. After I read the articles last night about carnivorous horses my hypothesis is: I think he was irritated with nanny for whatever reason and killed her. then licked her to see why she wasnt moving/screaming and liked the taste of the blood. He may have neuro/braintumor problems that cause the falling down and maybe it hurts and makes him irritable.
I do feel badly for neighbor cuz she saw the murder of her goat that she had for years.
I used to have goats but had to get rid of them (im prego) and my filly never really like them. She abosultely hates dogs, and will try to stomp them. Hopefully she never try to eat one. Im very carefully with my toddler around her cuz hes the size of a dog. of course I dont let him in the pen with her, I also dont let him feed her treats etc...
Member:
oscarvv

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 7:54 am:

It's not a surprising attack to me. It's sad for the owner though. I have horses that will with head down, ears laid way back, chase cats, dogs or any critter in their pasture. We have coyote and fox around here, I can't blame them for protecting themselves. Especially when in the wild they are not confined.
I had a horse almost kill another horse - ran it literally into the ground and then kneeed on her neck and was probably going to rip her throat out. Yes it was scary - but it isn't out of the relm of normal for horse behavior. And I didn't shoot the horse are think he had rabies or even a problem. I just never put him out with that horse again and am careful what horse he goes out with. I also know dogs to kill a cat they had lived with for years. A dog sees a cat run and their instinct tells them to go get 'em. They are animals, behaving like animals.


-Barbara
Member:
ilona

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 11:01 am:

Leslie,
Thank you for that link.

Horses can be very aggressive, one had it in for me, very scary.
The only thing any of us can surmise is that she was jealous of my relationship with my husband who had bred and raised her. She never behaved with such aggression towards anyone else. People would comment on her aggression towards me. (I am not, and never have been, abusive with animals.) One time she saw me from a different corral, realized an opportunity to get at me and ran from the far end of her corral, through the adjoining gate, that I realized too late was open. She had noticed, before me, that that gate was open. I had no effective escape, she was coming at me with intent and striking. (don't tell me horses don't reason, she showed intent, recognition of rare opportunity, problem-solution and behavior follow-through) What literally saved me was our Lama who also saw her coming for me...he shared a corral with her. Lamas are very fast animals and he came running into the round-pen and herded her away from me when she was but 6-8 feet from me. I had no rope, no lunge whip, no way to protect myself at all. I had gone to pick up some twine that had blown into the round-pen. I love Lenny, and literally owe him my life. I have no doubt she would have killed me and that was her purpose. She would lunge over fences to get at me, got me once really well on my back...she broke skin and removed flesh through my clothes. Needless to say she now lives elsewhere. She had apparently always been weird, and just took an extreme dislike to me. I've never had a problem like this with a horse before or since. She has gone to a working ranch and is owned by the trainer who put her under saddle, he loves her and she is very happy there. I wish her well, I just don't wish her to be around me.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:06 pm:

Ilona, Thank goodness for llamas that think fast! So hoped the horse was not guilty but .....! Did you ever check into your horses background to see if you had an evil twin in her life?? Am always curious what triggers these events, the more info one has the better armed against nasty surprises one will be. Cindy
Member:
ilona

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 1:57 pm:

Cindy,
I do know that she was bred from a very nervous Peruvian Paso, that I knew, (a mistake right there in my opinion)who developed mastitis, and then Mystica (Ms Alpo) developed eye infections as a foal. Not an easy beginning for a young horse. This was all reported to me. The vet's who had treated her her whole life did say she came into the world somewhat angry and had always had concerns about her innate disposition. I was the unlucky chosen one for venting her aggression. The great irony is that I was, until she first lunged at me, the most kind and affectionate with her...go figure! After revealing her true nature I did all I could to develop respect, clearly unsuccessful. She had respect when I worked her, but just lay in waite for her opportunities to get me, which she did. It was not fun for me to have her on the property, kind of like having a mountain lion contained...you are never really safe.
Member:
boomer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 4:51 pm:

I read the articles on horse.com. OMG, that is disturbing, very disturbing.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 4:53 pm:

Ilona, friend has similar trouble with one of her horses at the moment. He hates the farrier but is wonderful with EVERYONE else. This farrier is one of the best and does all her other horses (10) and no trouble but he has run thru or slammed this farrier several times. Did some research and horse had had a very terrible go with a farrier who looked a lot like this one ...he now has a female farrier and is just fine !! They come with so much unknown history !! At least you tried hard to reach her and that is all we can do. Cindy
Member:
qh4me

Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 10:29 am:

Back many years ago, we had 2 geldings pastured together for 5+ years. They were joined at the hip.
My mom was out feeding them one day and the older gelding (35+ years old) stumbled and fell to the ground - apparent heart attack. Immediately, the other gelding started to attack him and I am sure he would have killed him if my mom hadn't been right there.

This gelding never showed any signs of aggression before or since, but we felt he did it to put the old guy out of his misery.

On another note about the blood, you may recall my yearling getting impailed with a steel picket just recently. Well there was quite a bit of blood around on the snow. And some blood and flesh on the picket that he caught caught on. When I put the horses out the next day after the accident, they immediately went over and licked the steel picket for hours and the mare went around the pasture and licked all the blood off the snow.

I was thinking it was some kind of defence mechanism. They wanted to remove any sign of the injury or the sign of blood to keep predators away??

Strange how nature works!
Member:
oscarvv

Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 11:53 am:

I think when horses attack an injured, dying or weak horse it is a natural reaction to protect the herd. A lame or sick horse will attract predators as I suppose the smell of blood would.
I know when we had a mare break her shoulder her best friend turned on her and was very aggressive towards her....it was heartbreaking to see, but a natural reaction.
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 2:48 pm:

maybe they just like the taste of iron. or blood in general. don't we all lick a cut or scratch? its just an ingrained thing we do before even realizing we do it.
Member:
kitch

Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 3:34 pm:

This is the most bazaar thing I have ever heard of, what an eye opener. I have had horses for 45 years, I have had goats, miniature donkeys, miniature mules and miniature horses together with no problems, I have had my stallion with geldings and foals, foals with geldings, I have never seen any unusual behaviour with any of my horses like the ones I have read on this post, now I am going to be a little nervous. It does sound like something has gone amuck with this horse.
My condolences go out to Leslie’s neighbours.
Janine
Member:
dawson

Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 6:45 pm:

I don't think it can be ruled out as unusual behavior. A neighbors purchased two puppies and raised them together a german shepard and a minature poodle. On their 14th year of living together the poodle walked in front of the shepard laying down on the kitchen floor. The shepard stood up, grab the poodle by the neck and snapped it, there was no history of aggression by either dog. Likely the shepard just having a bad day, and had the poodle been a dog of equal size, it would have snapped back. I've had days myself when I have gotten too angry at my hubby over something that normally I would have fluffed off, so I can see it happening. As for the licking the blood afterwards I think most animals would exhibit this behavior towards a motionless critter to figure out whats up.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 7:35 am:

I think you guys are onto something. I remember when Fancy's knee got worse and worse. The last winter she was with us the other horses would drive her away and she would fall to her knees. They would kick at her when she was down, and I wonder how far it would have gone? She was a weakness to the whole herd and they didn't want her to be part of it. She was the gentlest horse I'd ever known and the horses never did that until she showed weakness. It was almost like driving a young stallion out of a herd.

As for dogs, it seems that when they get older this aggression thing kicks in for no reason. We had a shephard mix for years. He never bothered the cats, our house dog, or little kids. Then twice in one summer he bit little girls who bent down to pet him!! We didn't see the first incident, and because our niece is known to be a little stinker around critters, we figured she just annoyed him somehow. The 2nd incident I saw happen and that was the last time that dog bite anything! He bit both girls in face.

Maybe something goes wrong with the "wiring" in all mammels when they get older? Including people? (I haven't bit anyone lately)

As for the blood licking, when one of our horses broke his leg, I never noticed the mares any wheres near the spot he went down, and where he stood until my husband put him down. The mares huddled around him until the end, which was a couple of hours. (Brian was at work)

Man, this kind of stuff makes you worry about being near any animal!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 4:02 pm:

Angie, take a minute and think about the millions of humans you share your world with! Trust me, hug your critters one and all, they are fine!But lock your doors ........... Cindy
Member:
lizc

Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 5:27 pm:

Did anyone watch the special about Cloud and his family. remember the stallion that killed the foal who couldn't stand. The narrator was shocked to see such behavior from a stallion.
Member:
kitch

Posted on Friday, Mar 9, 2007 - 5:49 pm:

Maybe it is a survival instinct? By getting rid of the week and sick the herd can move on and leave them behind for the predator animals. If they are in the herd it might bring the predators to the heard, animals have far better senses than humans. That could explain why in the last 45 years I have not had to witness this in my own animals, I guess I just have been lucky enough not to have sick and week in the herd yet, who knows?
Janine
Member:
liliana

Posted on Friday, Mar 16, 2007 - 1:07 pm:

Leslie,

With all due I think you should stop watching TV late at night, it really sounds like CSI NY

May be the horse got frightened by a mouse, owl or something and it striked accidentally on to the nanny goat! How big is the stable? May be the poor horse just felt claustrophobic.

Some time ago one of my horses happened to trample on a baby goat the roamed into his stable, and by no means we consider him a murdering Munster!

The horse could have just been sniffing the goat and it got misconstrued as licking the blood!

Very Michael Jackson to me…

Liliana.
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