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  Discussion on English saddle advice – twists, trees, etc. (many questions)
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Member:
cpacer

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 - 2:49 pm:

I am looking at purchasing an english saddle to take my lessons in. I use an english version treeless saddle (Freeform) for trail riding, but I’m finding it not ideal for when focusing on my riding skills.

After learning what narrow and broad twists are from above article, I’m wondering if saddles with a shallow twist or low twist as described on some of the saddles I’m looking at would be considered narrow or broad. My guess is broad, but thought I’d ask. If I read the article correctly I would need a narrow twist (being a girl and all). Would that assumption change depending on whether I’d be doing more flat or jump work? I noticed most of the flatwork saddles describe a wider seat?

What does it mean when a saddle is called Close Contact? Would that be preferred over an All-purpose? And does "Convertible" mean anything, or is it just part of a name?

Does anyone have experience with the Easy Change Gullet System offered by Collegiate?

One of the brands I am considering is Courbette, but I notice all of their saddles have what they call the E-Motion or Federbaum spring tree. Does anyone know what that is? I really want to stay away from gimmicks or new and "improved" technology that you later find out isn’t so great, but I like a few of the Courbette saddles. They also have an inexpensive saddle called the Magic—anybody have experience with one?

About the only advice I’ve gotten so far is to stick with a wool flocked, so any other advice is very much appreciated before I make my THIRD expensive saddle mistake (although eBay is sure happy with my poor choices).
Member:
liliana

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 - 7:19 pm:

Hi CP

I will try and help out here, generally when saddle maker refer to narrow and broad it refers to the horse as in COB or TB . As far as the seat it is in inches from 14 to 17.5 and it would be from the cantle to the pommel.

Close contact refers to the contact with the horse, the closer the better, I would suggest a general purpose rather than a dressage or jumping saddle for obvious reasons.

Easy Change Gullet System refers to a set of aids which can be interchanged to make the saddle have a better fit. Look into the CAIR of Wintec for better description.

I suggest you look into the Wintec saddle pages and also https://www.rideaway.co.uk as they have really good description of their saddles.

Hope it helped
Liliana
Member:
chrism

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 9:55 am:

A couple of comments to add - it is important that the width of the saddle is comfortable for your horse and the seat shape is comfortable for you. Some seats can be "deep" and some can be flatter. A flatter seat shape is more forgiving if the saddle is too small for you. Also, the "twist" of the seat will vary, and this you will feel on your seat bones and perhaps between them if too narrow. There is a general view that women's pelvis shapes do better in a wider twist, but this isn't always true. Where the stirrup bars are positioned can also affect your position. I've not even started with your length of leg or whether there needs to be a lot or minimal leg blocks!

Where I am going is that there is no real standard among English saddles and a lot of variable factors. Because of this, and the high cost of new leather saddles, I usually buy "used." I have gone through a number of saddles over the years and based on my own experience, the used market usually runs about one half of new list. You can often ride in the used saddle and gauge comfort to you and fit to horse - new saddles typically cannot show any wear in the trial period. And if you decide you don't like the used saddle after all, you can usually sell it on for close to what you paid for it. There are lots of used saddles on the market because people bought and made mistakes or they got a new horse the saddle doesn't fit or they lose/gain weight, etc.

Some saddle trees are more "banana" shaped than others. If your horse if more flat backed, you will want to avoid them.

Buying a recognized, name brand saddle is helpful for possible resale. If the saddle is especially popular, the second hand price may be higher.

Tack stores often have consignments or trade-ins.

What style of riding are you working on? If it is mainly hunter/jumping, that may push you to a close contact. If you have dressage in there, an AP or dressage saddle may be a better match.

Some notable once said "all purpose is no purpose" - basically implying it is hard to get good dressage position in an AP saddle and you don't get the support you need in jumping either.

Personally, I am currently fond of the Kieffer dressage saddles - the tree shape seems to work well with a variety of horses (cut back, shorter points than many and flatter back shape) and they are comfortable to me (narrower than many, few things pushing you into position and flatter seat).

The best thing is to ride in a lot of different saddles to determine your preferences. You should also learn the basics of checking saddle fit on your horse.

Cheers.
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 11:01 am:

CP, I had a Courbette jumping saddle as a teen. I remember that it had a spring tree so I don't think that is any new technology.

I rode mine to death on lengthy (all day)trail rides with lots of jumping, and I foxhunted with it. It always fit my horse well, and was very comfortable for me. I put many, many miles on it so I feel good recommending it if you find it confortable.

As for "close contact", I personally don't care for them. I currently like a Stubben Siegfried
because it has a bit more structure around me. I still jump cross country and I like a good knee and thigh roll and a deep seat for security. To me, close contact infers "flat".
All a matter of opinion!

BTW--Twist is the top seat part of the saddle, not how it fits the horse's back, Liliana.
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 12:13 pm:

the best thing to do is find a local tack shop that will let you take a saddle home to try for a day or two.... they usually have a few basic rules (wrapping stirrups, etc..), but most are amenable... if you're not used to riding in a "regular" english saddle, then you dont know what your body will feel best in... everyone is different.. i much prefer my older crosby prix de nation sovereign if i'm riding hunt seat then anything else.. i dislike stubben's-not because they're bad (they're great saddles), but i positively hate a deep seat saddle with a lot around me.. my crosby is essentially a piece of wood with a piece of leather slapped over the top...
you didnt mention whether you're riding just one horse (your own?) or taking lessons and riding a variety of horses....obviously horse fit is a major concern as well...i HAVE found that stubben's seems to fit a lot of horses fairly well..
as far as twist-again, it depends on your personal body... most women use narrow to medium...

i agree wtih the wool flocking.. the saddle fitters i know prefer it.. they say it holds its shape better...

i've known some good courbette's, tho cant offhand remember any of the specifics...

as erika said, "spring trees" have been around for years.. nothing new fangled about it...

good luck... its a big investment!
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 3:43 pm:

Thank you! I will go to my local tack store this week to see what consignments they have, and my trainer actually has an old dressage saddle she's selling (said it was out of style for the show ring), but I'm sure it will be too big for my horse.

I'm glad to hear that the spring tree has been around for a while! If I can't find a good used saddle I may end up trying out one of the less expensive Courbette Magic saddles. It's not wool flocked but I think for the purposes I'll be using it might be fine.

The reason I was considering the changeable gusset was so I could use it on an arabian and a quarter horse, but it sounds like there are so many other variables besides the gusset that I should just plan on having separate saddles (which won't be for a while until the QH is ready to ride anyway).

As far as the All-purpose saddles go, I thought that the Eventing saddles and the A-P's would be the same since it's "multi-discipline", but I've found they're listed in separate categories. I wonder if an eventing saddle would be a good choice? I think out of all the disciplines I am most interested in dressage, but will probably never get further than daydreaming about it.

I really thought my Freeform was the answer to my prayers. I'm pretty bummed it didn't turn out to be as versatile as I thought, but it is awesome for trail rides.
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 3:55 pm:

Just searched this site for the Magic saddle and see that Katrina had tried one and was disappointed. She posted that they do actually use a new technology called E-motion, some kind of flexible tree. I've heard that flexible trees are bad, and got rid of my Circle Y Western saddle with a FlexLite tree because my horse started running from it.

Onto plan B...
Member:
wgillmor

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 4:02 pm:

CP,

If it is dressage you are interested in, I would get a dressage saddle, not all purpose. If you are anything like me, you'll have a hard enough time without fighting with the saddle.

Good values in used dressage saddles are around, and you won't lose much money if you find you prefer another discipline.

Regards,
Wiley
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 4:27 pm:

cp, I "dabble in Dressage" at home only and ordered my Dressage saddle from Dover. I was going to get their Warendorf, but the sales person said the Circuit is every bit as good and half the price. I have the wide tree which fits both my Arabian and my big barreled mustang. It is wool flocked. Dover lets you test ride many of their models before buying. I have been very pleased with this saddle; it has held up very well and is very comfortable. Take a look at www.doversaddlery.com
Member:
36541

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 7:24 pm:

Wintec Isabella(for dressage) has the interchangeable gullet system, easy to use, washable, and the leg blocks are mobile so riders with different leg conformation can adjust position. It is versatile enough for me to use on all my horses, from the BIG warmbloods to my little Connemara, and I have jumped in it too. It is my saddle of choice for trail. I still use my 20yr old Stubben for cross country, as the deeper seat will help you a bit if you get caught behind on a big jump or DrOp. The other thing I know after this many years is don't be scared to get the bigger seat size, even if you wear a smaller set of jeans. The mobility you have in the saddle as you apply the aids is really the issue, not so much your butt size!
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 8:52 pm:

You all have a point about maybe getting a dressage saddle. I will check-out above mentions. Many thanks!
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 9:00 pm:

Another vote for the Wintec Isabella - I used one hard for a number of years with little wear and tear to show for it. I bought it for a TB and it fits my warmblood equally well. I have since sold it to a friend who uses it on her QH - fits him well too.
Member:
ilona

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 11:55 pm:

There is a wonderful saddle you may want to consider. Here is the web-site: https://www.balanceinternational.com/saddles.html
It is the result of the study of the movement of the horse and ensures freedom for shoulders etc. its worth looking into.
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 8:55 am:

Highly, highly recommend Dr. Joyce Harman's book on saddle fit, The Horse's Pain-Free and Saddle-Fit Book. It covers every question you have posted and way more. Should be in every horse person's library. Best price I could find is at Amazon (link below)--under $20 (not incl. shipping). I read it cover to cover when looking for a saddle for my TB and it helped tremendously.

https://www.amazon.com/Horses-Pain-Free-Back-Saddle-Fit-Book/dp/1570762929
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 9:28 am:

When you are ready to buy may I suggest you check out Equestrianimports.com? When I was ready to make my first big investment and had decided that I was going to go with a used saddle I wanted to ensure that it was from a reputable dealer. They sent me the saddle and allowed a 7 day trial with no special instructions, meaning you didn't have to wrap the irons etc, normal use was fine. I got a three yr old Passier Nicole Grand Gilbert for $2000 total with leathers and irons. Luckily my coach has one with the same specs and I fit lovely but most importantly it fit my horse perfectly so that was half the battle. Anyway, you are only out the shipping if the saddle doesn't work. They are pricer for used than EBay but getting a quality used saddle is priceless! And then I wound up with a nice broken in, nearly new saddle that will last me years. Although don't forget to properly care for your tack. I clean mine after EVERY use.
Good luck in your search.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 11:49 am:

What a timely subject for me. I am also in the market for a dressage saddle.
Good suggestions above. I would add my vote for getting a dressage saddle if that is what you are going to do.
I bought an AP synthetic Wintec with the changeable gullet and instead of wool flocking it has 'CAIR' panels.
It fits everything I have tried it on, the gullet system is easy to change, with lots of wet saddle blankets it has never made a horse sore.
It is great for many purposes but since it is ap it doesn't help with dressage.
So, I am now looking for a dressage saddle.
English saddles determine size by the length of your upper leg bone. I use a 15" stock saddle but a 17 1/2 English because i have long legs. And while my uhum.. butt is bigger than it should be my structure is small so I need a fairly narrow twist to feel comfortable.
Deep or flat is personal choice. Ride in as many dressage saddles as you can. Borrow from friends if you can, just to get a feel for what you like.
When I look at the catalogues or web sites all the various features become overwhelming.
Now I wouldn't buy any saddle unless I could try it out for at least three rides.
Member:
muffi

Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 12:55 pm:

I haven;t read the entire post here but wanted to get my 2 Cents in. I bought a Kinkade Leather saddle for $299 from State Line tack - Free Delivery - plus they had all the other things in the Same Maker at the store - Irons, Leathers and girth - as well as a wide varitey of pads. (see other post about SL Tack pullin out of Pets Mart) Be careful with Used or Consignment saddles. I came home with 3 saddles and tried them on my QH before settling on the new one from kinkade. I was trying to settle for less !/2 inch smaller size, narrow on a broad backed QH etc) because it was a good named saddle. I got Close Contact - Because I was in training for Hunt Seat and Jumping. THe advice of an AP is good. unless of course you want to jump. then you may want a CC one. I use my CC for trail riding - up to 8 hours. the only problem is my feed get numb some times - I think getting those Flexable/Jointed Irons would resolve that.
Good luck and love you saddle when you get it.
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 4:00 pm:

Finding a brown dressage saddle is becoming a challenge! Why do all the new dressage saddles only come in black?

Is there a method for measuring what size tree would best fit my horse (prior to actually trying it on)?
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 6:28 pm:

There are three German dressage saddles available in brown shown on the Dressage Extensions web site. One is a Theo Sommer Egon von Neindorff ($1795), the other two are The Karel Niedersuss Olympik ($1995) and the Symphony ($1895). There is a method to measure for fit. Use an engineering tool called a flexible curve,(it's a long rubber measuring tool that can curve around things)...you'll need one at least 18" long) flex it over the widest point on the withers, then without changing the shape you get at all, trace a template from it. A saddle shop here used that method and it does help with a good fit.
Good luck!
Member:
amara

Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 11:01 pm:

you can also use a wire coat hanger and do the same thing that carolyn described..that works too...

are there any saddles at the place you ride that you can just try on to just get a basic idea?... as long as the owner knows the size of the tree you can get a basic idea of what size your horse is that way too...

as far as brown dressage saddles, you are right they are becoming harder and harder to find... most of the major saddlers do still make brown dressage saddles, but not too many, because the biggest request is for black... unless you buy new (and will usually have to order it thru tack shop or catalog) it will be potluck to finding a brown dressage saddle used...
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 10:40 am:

How do you get the measurement from the outline/tracing?
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 12:30 pm:

After you've done the wither measurement as I described, you then draw it onto a piece of lightweight cardboard using the tool (flexible curve) that was shaped to the withers. Use the inside edge of the flexible curve, as they are about 1/2 thick and the outside edge would not be as accurate. Cut the shape of the withers from the cardboard. Fit it into the gullet of the saddle you are considering. Many saddle makers ask that you send this tracing to them if ordering and they will size it for you.
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 1:22 pm:

oh, I thought there was a measurement that could be taken from the outline. Thank you for the info, it was helpful and I now have a tracing of his wither to take with me.
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 1:44 pm:

by the way, all of those brown saddles are on backorder!

I found a brown one by Courbette that I liked, and while all the retailers say they have it in stock they actually get them DrOp shipped from Courbette, and Courbette is all out. I think I'll just have to get an inexpensive AP to hold me over until I can find a brown one that will work for us.

At least now thanks to my HA friends I know that's what I want! Somehow I didn't think I was worthy of a dressage saddle before. Silly, I know.
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 6:17 pm:

cp, I just got my latest issue of Equus magazine and there are two Wintec dressage saddles available in brown...the Isabell and the 500. Both are under $1000 and have the Cair gullet system. Also saw one by Bates, with the Cair system; that one is for a mere $3000! You might want to check their web sites...
Member:
lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 4:31 pm:

Are you still looking for a brown dressage saddle?
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 9:16 pm:

not really, I ended up getting the Collegiate Eventing Saddle which I love for trail riding, lessons, and everything in between. But you never know, whatcha got?
Member:
lilly

Posted on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 - 8:47 am:

If you ever decide you would like to try a Passier dressage saddle, I have a brown one. You could borrow it. It doesn't fit my horse and I don't plan on buying another horse for a very long time. It is 17.5" and a medium tree. It was my first dressage saddle after I sold my all purpose Courbette. It is old but in good condition. It is comfortable for the rider and it has fit a wide variety of horses (just not my mare who requires a 38cm tree!). This particular model is sold very cheap on eBay. There are no knee rolls or thigh rolls. Most people want those.
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 - 12:33 pm:

well thank you, i'll keep that in mind!
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