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  Discussion on Bit for (hopefully!) short term runaway problem
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Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Sunday, Jan 26, 2003 - 6:45 pm:

I bought a prelim event mare last August (that's her level, I'm a just a novice eventer), and we've been getting to know each other. She's 8 yrs old, 1/2 TB and 1/2 Trakehner, and she generally requires the rider to have an agenda.

Dressage and jumping lessons have been going well, and we regularly hack out with another horse or alone. She's a bit of a spook on trails, especially alone, and she's tried to spin and run on me in the past. Just recently, though, she ran away with me - it's happened now twice - in a flat out accelerating gallop, as fast as she can run. Both times she did this out of a walk on the buckle.

I need to put a stronger bit in her mouth while I deal with this, so I am absolutely sure I can stop her immediately if she tries it again (and she will!) -- and break what is threatening to become a wicked bad habit.

I'm not looking for a permanent change to a stronger bit -- just for some hardware that I can use to make my point as we work on respect issues under saddle and on the ground. I've been riding her in a very gentle french link snaffle. Her prior owner used a Dr. Bristol for XC and jumping.

I figure my choices are a Dr. B, a pelham, or a kimberwicke (I saw a Whitmore kimberwicke at saddleshop.com that looks more like a pelham and would take 2 sets of reins, another choice). I worry that a Dr. B may not really be enough to make my point and I don't want an escalating contest, I want to nip this in the bud. On the other hand, she's never worn a curb of any kind, and 2 sets of reins might make me slower to respond. I'd love opinions on which way to go!

Note, these are not panic bolts -- she knows just what she's doing, there's no feeling that she's going to run into something, in fact when I turned her into the trees to stop her the 2nd time, she propped and stopped. She also feels incredibly sure footed -- she just leaps over anything that looks like uneven ground. She doesn't feel unsafe, and it's astonishing just how tight I can turn her without feeling any loss of balance. Turning her is the only way I can stop her, the snaffle does nothing. By the time I stop her, we're both pretty upset, so she tends to want to bolt again on me and I tend to want to get off.

And it's not pain. She's working great under saddle for dressage, doing beautiful counter canter, lateral work, etc. I had my vet double check her back last time he was out, just to make sure, and she's not sore.

Part of it may be the crisp cold weather, and desire to go for a good gallop -- we've got a foot or more of snow so I haven't been the one to suggest it. But I think it's really about disobedience/lack of respect. So we've been working on ground manners too, and I think that will help.

Thanks for any help and advice dealing with this. She'll be my perfect horse when I finish working through these issues. I'm sure learning a lot from her!

Melissa
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Jan 26, 2003 - 7:20 pm:

Hi, Melissa,

I would go with a full cheek Dr. Bristol or regular full cheek snaffle. It's not the bit that is going to make the difference as much as the technique of catching her before she can follow through on her running off.

The problem with going to a "stronger (more painful) bit" is that a horse that runs away deliberately (as you seem to say she does) will learn to run through that bit as well.

The horse is running away in her mind before she runs away with her body. As soon as you feel her attention wander from you, then give her a cue to give . . . . It takes very keen observation on your part . . . when you feel that she is going to make for it . . . BEFORE, if possible, keep your seat deep, shoulders back and then hold one rein strongly back and put her on a circle and start working her in a tight pattern. DO NOT let her head go until you feel her give in to your steady pressure. When she gives and when her feet start to walk, i.e., when her attention is back on you, then you can head her out of the circle or pattern.

I have found a full cheek (and on one horse who sometimes choosed to run away) a full cheek Dr. Bristol are the most reliable for this kind of work. The problem with any curb you choose (including the Kimberwicke) is that when you hold a rein strongly back to put the horse on a circle and slow her down, the bit will tip in her mouth and gouge her. The snaffle will send the most direct, gentle message to her as long as your holding is a steady hold and not a jerk.

With consistent observation and response from you and with lots of foiled attempts at running off, you will be able to signal your horse to slow her feet and put her attention back on you with a mere light holding of one rein.

Holly
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Jan 26, 2003 - 7:23 pm:

Sorry . . . :-) that should be "chooses."
Member:
Willie

Posted on Sunday, Jan 26, 2003 - 9:27 pm:

Hi Melissa,
I used to have a powerhouse of an event horse who did nicely in a french-link snaffle for his dressage work, or in any enclosed area, but the moment he thought we were heading for the cross-country course, he'd pull like a freight train. I spent a lot of time working on weight aids to get him back under control, and that certainly helped, but I realized that I often needed a little extra control -- and sometimes I also needed an emergency brake.

I don't know if you'll be able to find this, and I no longer have this bit because it went with the freight train when I (sadly) sold him, but if you can find a short-shanked pelham with a french-link mouthpiece, it's worth the search. What you will then have is the mouthpiece she's accustomed to, plus the curb rein for emergencies. And if you cover the curb chain with a fleece or rubber cover, it's quite mild. Ride on the snaffle rein, but bring that runaway under control by adding the curb action when you need it.

Dover sells a KK "ultra" pelham with that kind of moutpiece but it's very expensive. A couple of the Myler bits come close to a french link pelham.

Another very good option is a Baucher hanging snaffle with either a french link mouth or a Waterford mouth, which will give you a little poll leverage without the under-the-chin curb action. It may be just enough of a difference to get your mare's attention. A lot of English eventers swear by the waterford hanging snaffle for cross country.

And a Dr. Bristol is certainly worth trying, since that's what she wore before.

I would NOT use a kimberwicke or a mullen mouth pelham -- the ported mouthpiece and curb chain of a kimberwike may cause flexion at the crest instead of the poll, and I've seen plenty of horses just curl into a ball and keep right on going. A mullen mouthpiece (pelham or snaffle) is a rigid, inflexible mouthpiece that doesn't invite relaxion or acceptance. You want your mare to continue to accept the bit's support and work into it, not avoid it.

If you need to purchase a new bit to try and don't want to spend a fortune, I'd go first for a french-link hanging snaffle as they can be had relatively inexpensively.

I also second the suggestion to keep her brain active. Ask for leg yield, half halts, shortening/lengthening whenever you're on the trails. Don't ride on the buckle at all unless you're absolutely sure she's dead quiet and maybe a little tired. Horses that have been conditioned to compete at prelim are powerful, energetic, engaged athletes -- they often do not fully relax, nor do they saunter and stroll very well.

Good luck!

Sarah
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Monday, Jan 27, 2003 - 2:21 am:

Melissa

Just another point which probably isn't much help with your foot of snow and which you are probably aware of but unable to do anything about...

In my experience any horse kept in during the winter needs a good outing such as hunter trials, hunting or a serious hack of 3-4 hours about every 2 weeks to flatten them a bit.

Otherwise increasing mischief during regular exercise can peak dangerously. An outing with other horses is best - it seem to give them something to chew on mentally as well as physically.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Jessie

Posted on Monday, Jan 27, 2003 - 8:35 am:

Melissa,
Libertyville Saddleshop carries a ported link bit in several types - loose ring, eggbutt, kimberwick, pelham - that might be similar enough to your current bit that the transition is easier. The port is very low. If you go with a curb bit you might try a western curb chain that has leather at both ends and a short piece of chain in the middle. As the owner of a horse that bolts (much less than he used to) I understand wanting to stay mild with a bit but safety comes first and sometimes that could mean a bit with more control. I use a rubber mullen mouth pelham most of the time and I would argue that it is harsh only if used improperly or at the wrong time. Listening to the horse's body language is also very important. It took some time but I almost always know now when my boy is thinking of bolting off and about 90% of the time I can correct and stop it. Of course, every now and then I just let him go and enjoy the flight.
Good luck. Jessie
Member:
Alika

Posted on Monday, Jan 27, 2003 - 2:50 pm:

Very interesting topic to me personally, as my Arab mare performs the same galloping runaway, very rarely (once in two years and we trail ride alot). Only when we're riding in a large group of horses other than her usual pasture mates. My theory is an unfamiliar horse gave her a subliminal threatening signal and off she goes. Similar to the racing merry-go-round I see when a new horse comes to visit the pasture. Since I don't ride with a bit at all (use the English scrawbridge, basically a halter with chin strap and rings for reins), I practice the one-rein stop, bringing her head around to slow down doing so with a rein release rein release pulse so centrifical force doesn't send me into the bushes. This pulsing would work with a full cheek snaffle as well. I've been advised of a training method to keep them running when they want to stop, but I haven't tried that yet. Could you kind folks please let me know what riding on the buckle means? Thanks!
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Monday, Jan 27, 2003 - 4:43 pm:

Riding on the buckle = very long reins - i.e. you only have the buckle in your hands.

I too have heard the idea of letting them bolt and then pushing them on, preferably up hill, until they tire. I've mixed feelings - I think you need a fair bit of terrain and need to know it well. You also need a bit quite comfortable in the saddle. Plus, an event horse is going to be quite fit and able to run for some time.

To me, the better thing is to be prepared. I.E., use a bit you have control with (I, too, like the Dr. B, with the full cheek or a D so it doesn't pull through when you turn and she is already used to it) - can turn and eventually slow and ride with contact and attention, especially early in the ride. Lunging prior to ride can sometimes get the spooks out if the horse has been kept up. Ideally, you have access to a safe, flat track of some type that maybe you could breeze/condition her at times to keep the ya-yas at bay, too. Often, giving them something to do while on the trails - leg yields, shoulder ins, transitions, etc. can give their minds something to do rather than bolt. Or, save the trail ride as a reward at the end of a work session, so the edgeyness is gone.

Also, is the bolt toward home or away from home? There could be a bit of a fear factor/nappiness there if she is trying to go home and she is out alone. Be sure to always walk home, but working purposefully.

I've often thought a "tired dog is a good dog" when I look at my ES snoozing. I think this is true for a horse - steady, regular work of varied types can help them focus and behave. Keep asking her to perform bits and pieces, even on your hacks, and she may stay focused.

BTW, I think many mares will try to slip into a position of leader ship if a rider isn't in charge to their way of thinking. On the buckle riding may not be giving her the feedback, support, confidence, etc. she expects. My own mare expects you to keep a leg on. On/off tends to really annoy her. She is more like to act up when we aren't working and she is "on the buckle."

Cheers. Sounds like it should sort out fairly easily.



Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003 - 1:28 pm:

Wow!! Thank you all for your wonderful advice and suggestions!! I’m mulling all this over and thinking how to put it into practice, and will let you know what we do and how it goes! I am soooo grateful you all took the time to help me!
Melissa
Member:
Swainl

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2003 - 5:30 pm:

I found a lovely bit a while back to help with a freight train. It's an egg-but french training snaffle gag. It provided the brakes I needed without changing the basic bit I was using. I found this bit at a western feed store, and have not been able to find another, but it sure did the trick.
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Sunday, Feb 2, 2003 - 1:23 pm:

Thanks again to all of you for your insights and suggestions. Very thought provoking!

Yes, there's a fear aspect -- she is spooking when this happens, and once it was a bolt towards home. And I think by not stopping her quickly, I make it worse -- she finds herself galloping off with no direction from the rider, and feeds off my fear. She doesn't panic the way I've heard horses will -- running into things, etc. Her self-preservation instincts seem to be working just fine, and she feels a little willful while she's doing this. The first time, when I stopped her, she sort of threw a temper tantrum and bucked and then bolted off again, so we had a little series of bolts. The second time, I came off because I had to ditch into the trees to avoid someone on the trail, and she stood there quietly until I turned to her and called her name and then she just took off towards home and left me with a long trudge through the snow.

Yes, there's also a pent-up energy issue -- the footing here is awful, no place to gallop till some of the snow/ice melts. She's pretty fit, and we're not getting as much exercise as we were before the snow got so deep. (She's turned out 12 hours a day, but in a paddock.) A really long ride once every week or 2 with friends is a great idea.

And yes, there's a leadership/trust/respect issue too. She's a new horse for me, and she's every bit the opposite of my 22yr old WB gelding. He's "Mr. Self Confidence", calm, generous, and a senior citizen. She's quick, sensitive, young, spooky, fit, quite the princess, and a TB. So I am still learning to read her, and understand her needs.

I definitely will ride on contact and keep her occupied, and save the loose rein for the walk home when she's tired/relaxed. Also, I'm realizing I was trying to stop her without even sitting in my tack, so I'm sure my aids were pretty ineffective (it just felt so much safer to be off her back I guess, I was quite afraid). And I was using equal rein pressure. So I need to sit down and use a pulley rein and think "halt now!", not just "slow down".

A follow-up question about bits: when she bolts, she's galloping off with her head up, not down. Also, when jumping she doesn't pull -- she stays up and light and balanced. She seeks contact, but she never goes on the forehand. Does this change anyone's bit recommendations?

Thanks for your help!
Melissa

Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Feb 2, 2003 - 2:05 pm:

No, Melissa . . . my bit recommendations don't change. To my way of thinking, it is the bend and give that needs to happen, and I believe that a full-cheek is the best bit to use for that, whether the head is up or down. Yes, your weight needs to be down and back for your own safety, for you to have enough strength behind your holding of the rein, and to signal the horse to slow.

One of the most helpful things I have learned over the years of working with many soured, problem horses, is that I CAN have a workable plan for every situtation my horse and I encounter, whether it is a rear, buck, shy, balk, jump . . . . whatever . . . . If you have a workable plan in mind, then you never have to go out on trail with a question of whether or not you are going to be okay that day . . . . every ride will be different, and many rides will hold suprises, some unpleasant, but all able to be handled . . . . I have found that using one rein, keeping my weight in the saddle with my shoulders back and being aware of where my horse's attention is at all times so I can nip any waywardness or fear in the bud have helped in the training of all those horses and has kept me safe.
Holly
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Friday, Apr 4, 2003 - 12:37 pm:

Hi folks,

I thought I'd let you know what I wound up with, so far it seems to be a good solution.

For hacking out I bought a Sprenger Balkenhol universal bit -- it's the Balkenhol snaffle mouthpiece in a 3-ring configuration. It's often thought of as a jump bit, so I think it will serve me well for cross country and stadium too.

I (currently) attach the reins on the bottom ring so I have maximum leverage if I need it. She accepts the bit very well, seems very comfortable with it, and the couple of times I've had to make a quick correction as she gathered and started to bolt I've gotten a very good response, and have been able to stop her immediately.

I think the poll pressure was a very good idea. It's not severe but seems to "remind" her to obey. It's still a snaffle mouth, but less "wiggly" than a french link so probably gives a little more control. No curb (she's never worn one) so nothing too new for her. The side pieces provide some of the stability and lateral control that full-cheek snaffles provide, which is good. Also, I'm dealing with just one set of reins, better for my reaction time, as I do want to teach her to behave out on a loose rein. She seems to like the aurigan, and her mouth stays nice and moist.

I'm still hacking out in company for safety, but one of these days when the footing improves here, I'll get brave again and start riding out alone and see how it goes.

For dressage I'm using a Sprenger KK Ultra loose ring snaffle -- their new french link which has the gentler middle link. She likes that too. I've become a believer about the nutcracker effect of the usual single link snaffle -- she opened her mouth quite a bit when I was using one of those, and she no longer does.

Thanks again to everyone for the great ideas, especially the conceptual reasons for one choice over another. It's been a huge help!

Melissa
Member:
Renee58

Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2004 - 10:52 pm:

Does anyone have a trick to keep the horses head down to take the bit and not to run off when to bridle him up. Please be novice to explain this .This horse is 20+ and has been getting away with this too long. I have lunge him ,then he will give but never constant what is the problem?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2004 - 1:05 pm:

I'm no trainer and some of the real trainers might have some better advice, but first of all, I'd make sure the bit fits the horse right, isn't too severe and is comfortable, and that the headstall is too. Then I'd get the vet out and make sure the horse's teeth and mouth are o.k. The horse may just need to have it's teeth floated.

Once those concerns are out of the way and you are still having problems, you could try wraping the bit in some vet wrap or something similar, then dip the wrapped bit in molasses (or paint it on which is less messy.) The horse will usually take the bit in his mouth this way. I'd do this once, pat the horse etc., then take the bit out. Don't even put the headstall on at first. Just take the bit in and then out after a moment or two. Do this a few times, then put the headstall all the way on; then walk around a little before you take the bit out. Again, recheck and make sure everything is fitting right. Progress to riding and make sure when you are riding you aren't at fault by being too heavy handed. After awhile you can unwrap the bit and should have no more problems.
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