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  Discussion on Frustration Bucking Problem
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Member:
Beasley

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2003 - 4:55 pm:

I have a 5 year old foundation bred quarter horse gelding that bucks when frustrated (usually on trail rides or in a competitive situation when he wants to run out and I won't let him). It is getting worse each time. He has not unseated me, but it is scary. He usually gets over it and we go on. I have done 3 months training with him and he is perfect in the ring. He is well-behaved otherwise. I ride him consistently. Will he outgrow this? What should I do under these circumstances? There is not a pain issue here, fyi. Good health and saddle fit. I believe it is strictly a temper thing. Thanks for any help.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2003 - 6:55 pm:

Jo,
He hasn't unseated you . . . .do you just wait it out or do you do something proactive when this happens?
Holly
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 2, 2003 - 8:28 am:

Hello Jo,
As long as the horse consistently does not achieve the desired ends of the misbehavior it should improve.
DrO
Member:
Mrenee

Posted on Thursday, Feb 27, 2003 - 9:38 am:

My daughter has a TB that had a problem with rearing, bucking, spinning, running off when he didn't want to do something. He was so bad, this is why he was sold to us. I had her work up a "routine" to do when he did this. In this particular instance, my husband (farrier) had brought his shoeing trailer into the indoor to shoe. Nation (this horse has a nasty history of acting insane and refusing all kinds of stuff). Anyway, He refused to go past this trailer. Ashley got off, walked him up to it and let him sniff and look and he was fine. Get on his back though and try to go past and he would rear, spin, buck and run off. Anyway, this particular horse does lead changes, sidepasses, two track. So I had her make up a complicated routine to put him thru when he did this. He learned in one day that he has to work 10 times harder when he acts up. She tried to ride past the trailer, he did above, and she would immediately countercanter in a cicle, do hips in at the canter, lead change, sidepass one way, sidepass the other, stop back up, canter the other way, lead change, sidepass, countercanter...and then she would ask again for what she wanted. If he wanted to act up, back to the routine. This went on for about 45 minutes until he decided it might be easier to just go past the trailer than act up. The next day, he refused again, and just one routine had him going where he was supposed to. She uses this routine everytime something comes up that he wants to be stupid about. And there were alot of things he was stupid about. He has learned he would rather just do it then work so hard. I like this routine because you have a plan, and a specific "thing" to do when something like that happens. And it works for almost everything. Ashley took this horse to Gulfport to the eight week show last year (he is a jumper) and she was kicked out of the rings for the enduration of the show..and only allowed to bring him out after hours. Before we bought him he had spent about six years saying no and getting away with it. We just got back from Gulfport this weekend (same show) and people there wouldn't believe it was the same horse. She just had to use her rountine once, after that he settled down. I hope this made sense!
New Member:
Tiffney

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 3:13 am:

I have a 4yr old gelding in for training.He had never bucked or shown any signs of doing so,until yesterday. He line DrOve for about 15mins and passed gas that caused he to explode.He bucked and bucked finally got him back under control his belly still rolled up really tight. Calmed him and continued with the line driving he continued well.Then I climbed on him rode great for a good 1/2 hour then he passed gas again and the rodeo began once more this time more intense than the last.Usually they buck then pass gas not the other way around. Checked the flank sinch,saddle everything I could think of.I have no clue as to why he did this and there was no warning of any kind it was coming except the gas?Any ideas or tips would be great.}
Member:
Meggles

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 6:40 am:

Jo. A friend of mine rides a young, traditional type Haflinger (really chunky and powerful) who she has brought on over the last 12 months. He was given to her on loan as when his owner purchased him, he was sold as a chunky, overweight cob who was as sane and safe as they come. As he got a bit fitter, it turned out not to be the case. This pony has attitude. A year later, he's gone from being a horse that felt like a big wobbly jelly to ride, to one who is regularly competing in dressage, showjumping, working hunter, xc, you name it. To see him now, he has a jump to die for, he's one of the bravest ponies I've seen xc and the dressage judges love him as he looks like a little blonde stallion. During the first 6 months of being brought on he pulled all sorts of tricks to get his own way. He would squeal with excitement and put in massive bucks without warning in any situation, shoot off across the arena bucking, run out at fences that he'd jumped a dozen times before, buck after fences, squeal and buck if we rode out with strange horses, throw his body around, and sometimes just stand there and refuse to move at all with his ears pinned. He was checked over and there was nothing wrong with him, he was just evading work and being distracted by his surroundings which were all very exciting.

She has taught him that this behaviour won't get him anywhere. She just waited until he'd stopped, did some difficult stuff, rein back, small circles etc and then pushed him back on again. His attitude is still there but he's now more of a cheeky chap who will squeal and throw a little buck, but all of the frustration and resistant, nappy stuff has gone as he's got fitter, a bit more mature in his outlook and finds the work much easier. He will always be a strong, excitable pony when riding out in company and she just has to choose carefully who to ride out with, particularly if doing any more than a walk and trot. If she canters him out, she always insists on a few strides of trot beforehand to make sure she's in control and avoid any bucking episodes. The riders with her do the same and this seems to do the trick. We also never put him right at the back if out in a group, he seems happiest in the middle.

I'm no expert but I suspect your horse will grow out of this behaviour as he learns that his behaviour isn't going to get him anywhere. Just be careful not to inadvertently let him win the battle by backing off him when he unnerves you. Good luck!
Sarah
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 11:39 am:

Tiffney,

I was chuckling reading your post. Sounds like he's scaring himself when he passes gas!! So off he goes, bucking up a storm.

Seriously, I think he will outgrow this and as long as he is put back in line afterwards, he'll learn this isn't acceptable behavior.

I have a gelding who's a real sweetheart except he likes to give a big squeal, then he explodes into a rodeo bucker also. He does this on the lunge, in longlines, and tries to under saddle. It's all about training, and him learning he can't do this with me, but he can do it on his time.

p.s., my 11 yr old daughter suggested maybe you could put a plastic bag under his tail so he don't hear himself let go??
New Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 9:42 pm:

Hi I have had a similiar problem with my 7 year old WB Cross. It started last winter I took her out on a hack which I do all the time but this was the first time alone for a while. She picked up a really nice collected trot just after I entered the field I usually ride in and for some reason I decided to let her and then she broke into a nice slow canter next thing I know she is throwing her head around and twisting her body and bucking. I was totally unprepared for this as she had never ever done anything like this before. I came off and landed hard. I got back on with alot of pain and made her walk around quite a bit. (By the way she didn't run off just stood there) Then I asked her for several trot canter transitions she swung her head a few times but both times a I pushed her forward and yelled at her. I didn't quit until she did it with out any problems. Since then this has happened a couple of time she gets swinging her neck and I know what's coming. So I yell and push her forward or change her pace up and down. I am just amazed she is doing this it seems to have come from nowhere. Any ideas?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 10:44 pm:

Have you changed anything in your tack, blanket, bit...anything? Any changes in the way you are trying to ride? If there have been now changes at all, and you are sure her tack fits her o.k. and there is no irritation/pinching, etc. and that you have your saddle sitting in the right place, then there are some things you can do other than yell at her. Usually yelling, if you really are yelling and not just scolding, just makes things worse.

At the first sign of her wanting to buck, I would go in small circles, about 30 feet or so, and keep her collected with my outside rein, getting her to bend around my inside leg,first at a walk,then at a trot; then I'd do it in the other direction and get her thinking about something other than misbehaving. Then I'd do some transitions from one gait to another, some extension then collection, in the field just like you would in an arena. After each exercise I'd ride her a little on a relaxed rein and see how she does, first at a walk, then a trot. I think this might help as long as the problem isn't related to her tack or your seat and leg position. (ie. you're not tightening your grip with your legs, leaning forward, etc.) And, you can always do some ground work before you get on her.
New Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 12:15 pm:

Hi Thanks Sarah, I haven't changed anything, in my tack or my riding. Could it be she is just fresh? She bucks and rears on the lunge line too. It seems to help if I can lunge her a bit but I ride outside and it's icy and slippery most of the time. I have also started back doing some ground work with her. On the days I ride I have found if I can turn her out to pasture for a couple of hours she is fine. I think she is just bored and fresh and really wants to go. When I said yell at her what I do is I say "uh" very firmly. (like in uh uh or no) I'm just afraid of this turning into a habit. So I will try the bending which I have done if she is trying to spook or shy and it works. By the way I was riding in the same field that my friend and I always let our horses run in, when she bucked the first time, so she may associate that field with exicitment, like whee lets run and have fun play wild horses and forget that I'm there, cause I don't really feel she was trying to get rid of me.
Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 9:41 pm:

P.S. I took my horse to an local stable and rode her indoors for the last month with not the least sign of any bucking or rearing. I'm beginning to think it was just a feeling good kind of thing. I will probably have to work through it like you said. Thanks for the great posts though.
Member:
Beasley

Posted on Friday, Mar 10, 2006 - 11:44 am:

Hi all, I'm back with another 5 yr. old who is tossing his head and bucking at the canter. I'm beginning to think it is the age of bucking! He checked out fine with soundness and saddle, bit fit. He was a little thin and has only gained a little weight while here, but does get fed regularly. From reading other posts, I get the impression that if I can catch it at the head tossing point and ask for circles or devise a work plan, I may have better luck with control. He also rears and tries to run off on the longe. Last night he got away by pulling the rope through my hand (to burn), but I got him back. He was very proud of himself. I'm thinking of a professional trainer!
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Friday, Mar 10, 2006 - 1:41 pm:

Hi Jo,

I am going through similar problems with my 4 yr. old. For lunging, I use a chain wrapped through his halter rings and under his chin then clipped to a 20' rope. This gives me good control of his head position and I can redirect his attention back to me with only slight pressure. When he gets in his head-down-bucking-galloping thing, he stays in the circle. I just let him blow off the steam, then calmly ask again for what I want. Very soon he relaxes and gets to work.

This behavior stems from a lack of respect and their wanting to dominate us. I have used both Clinton Anderson's and Chris Cox's methods for this, with much success. I also learned that gaining respect on the ground does not necessarily transfer into the saddle. You must also gain respect from that vantage point. I have started using a crop to further enhance my requests when he resists. Try to do lots of flexing of the head, and lots of bending by doing circles and serpentines. Do these first at the walk, then trot. Always reward softness and relaxation.

If you start cantering when your horse is very, very relaxed, that may help the bucking situation. He is resisting you so try making him a willing partner first. Also, think about your own body position before asking. Do you tense up? Is he picking up from you an increase in excitement? Are your cues understood or is he getting mixed signals, i.e. asking for canter while pulling back on the reins.

Good luck,
Linda
New Member:
sarah37

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 10:59 am:

HI, I am new to this site and I am hoping someone can help me. I am not a great rider and don't pretend to be. I have an 8 year old thoroughbred, 17 hands, that I rescued 3 years ago. I have had some training with him and my goal is to make him into a great trail horse. I rode him all last year on trail rides anywhere from 4-9 hours and some pretty difficult trails. He was basically fine. This year, however, for some reason he is acting up horribly. Right now I have a sprained ankle, pulled thigh muscles, pulled ham-strings, huge bruise on the inside of my thighs, and various other bruises. It was a bucking bronco show for the last 4 trail rides which, obviously, ended up with me on the ground 5 times in the last 4 rides. I always got back on and continued (in fear of my life nevertheless) but I am not sure how to discipline him afterwards. Should I beat the crap out of him. Once he took off at full race track speed after he threw me, ran around for 10-15 minutes, then came right up to me apoligetically. He always comes back to me. So I am confused on the discipline matter because I dont want him to be afraid to come back to me. He also kicks out violently at other horses, he must be in the lead, he spins when he is unsure of the trail ahead. Anyway....I am in love with the horse because for 2 years he has been terrific, now, he is possessed by the Devil. HELP ME. I would love it if I could find someone else to train him on the trail for me. I had a recent total hip replacement (6 months ago) and I am fearful of being in a wheelchair the rest of my life. I know he is worth fixing and he CAN be what I need him to be, but I am not qualified to fix him. Please Help.
Member:
hwood

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:12 am:

Hi, Sara, welcome to The Horseman's Advisor. Those of us who have been members for years or only a few months have found great information and some wonderful friendships.

Your horse could have many reasons for his reaction. As you have conditioned him, he may have developed muscling in his back and may not fit his saddle anymore. He may have a serious tooth problem. He may have gut pain from ulcers. He may have foot pain or joint pain. He may have a tumor on his brain. There are so many things. First, start with a thorough vet exam to check his teeth and feet and joints. Have the vet check his back. If you have access to a good saddle fitter, have that person come and evaluate your saddle fit.
Horses don't like being uncomfortable, and sometimes the only way they can tell us is to act out.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 12:04 pm:

Sarah .. a couple of other things to consider. I see on your profile that you feed 10 lbs sweet feed daily. What is the protien % and other specifics on this feed. This seems a lot for a non working horse. Also, what type and how much hay are you feeding.

I am working with a mare right now with a similar problem. We are making progress, and with her it seems to be a simple "I don't want to work right now" attitude.

If all health, tack, and feed situations check out, it is usually behavioural and can be fixed.

DT
New Member:
sarah37

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 12:18 pm:

Wow, What a quick response...THANKS. He is sound. No health problems. It is an attitude problem. Sweet is 12%. Tell me what to feed. Someone else suggested the same thing. Lots & lots of hay. What kind?? dont know, it is grown by barn owner. She feeds her home-grown hay. He was moved to this barn in October, this is when problems started with him. He is also confined to stall now when last two years he was turned out all day and sometimes night too. Suggest what to feed. I would more than be willing to try.
Sarah
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 1:16 pm:

It's possible you've answered your own question, Sarah. The problems started when he was moved to the new barn where he receives no turnout. Add this to the sweet feed and it sounds like you're guy may have more energy than he knows what to do with.

Have you tried to lunge him before taking him out on the trail to get rid of some of that energy? Is there an arena you can work in before hitting the trail? What are the chances of him getting some turnout time? There are lots of balanced pelleted feeds (Strategy, Buckeye, just to name two) that can be fed while dialing down the energy factor. But to make the right choice, it's best to know what the nutrition content of the hay is (There are wonderful feeding articles here on HA that you should look into)

Just things to consider if you've ruled out all physical problems and you're confident that your tack fits properly.

Good luck!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 1:26 pm:

Sarah To me the most reasonable answer seems to be the horse needs to be out in a paddock. I've know more then a few horses who hated being confined or even being alone in a paddock so much they completely changed to as you describe 'possesed by the devil'.
Jos
Member:
tuckern

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 1:34 pm:

Sarah, I think you've just told us exactly what the problem is with your horse. :-)
Stalled horse + too much sweet feed + not enough exercise = very hyper, rambunctious, and uncontrollable horse.

Is there a reason he is getting sooo much sweet feed? Is he a hard keeper, ie. is it hard to keep weight on him with just good quality grass hay?

How much turnout from the stall does he get per day? And, is there a way to put him in a larger paddock, instead of being in the stall all the time? My horses go absolutely bonkers if they are kept stalled for too long.

I would also seriously check saddle fit. It doesn't take long for a saddle that used to fit perfectly, to be completely uncomfortable, and cause problems. This happened with my horse when I first got her. I had a saddle that fit great. Within 6 months, her body changed enough that the saddle no longer fit, and I found myself riding/being thrown from a fussy and mad horse.

Also, check his teeth and mouth. Pain will cause attitude problems.

Hope this helps, and welcome to HA. You'll find some really terrific advice here. :-)

Nicole
New Member:
sarah37

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 2:12 pm:

I love this site...worth every penny....
Yes, my horse is a hard keeper. He has had weight issues. He colicked, foundered, lost a bunch of weight. Nursed him back. He is at a great weight right now. He gets very, very little turnout. Sometimes in the stall for 7-10 days at a time. As far as the sweet feed....I'm not an expert on feed. It is what is normally fed the other horses in the barn...so we stuck with it. I had him on Ultimate Finish and took him off. The barn owner is re-doing the pastures and paddock. There is an area where he can go out, but then other owners want their horses out too and it gets to be a problem. I think you guys have helped me tremendously...I will change his feed immediately. With such little activity, he should not be getting so much sweet feed. I will check on the hay situation and insist he goes out at least 4 hours a day before he kills me. I have l have lunged him before a ride and it did help somewhat, but I was still very uncomfortable with his behaviour. I want him to walk next to other horses without him thinking he is in the Kentucky Derby. He can't tolerate anyone in front or behind him. What fun is that for me. Please tell me what to feed, I am really clueless. I will also check the saddle. He has put on some weight, so maybe it is not fitting properly. Don't laugh, but I have a Wintech Saddle. Lightweight, he is so friggin big that it was too hard for me to get my all leather saddle on him.
Sarah
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:52 pm:

Sarah,

Welcome to HA.

For feed, look for any thing that is labeled LOW starch. I find that makes a lot of difference. Nutrena has Safe Choice, not sure what Purina's is called and there are others. If he is not keeping the weight on with that, you can add some corn oil for extra calories without him going bonkers.

And for hay, I like no more than 30% alfalfa.

And all of my horses would be nuts if kept stalled that long of period at a time! Especially now that they've had a taste of pasture, lol!!
Member:
hwood

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:56 pm:

Wintecs are great. I use my two on almost all of the horses I ride . . . but . . . the narrower of the two Wintecs can pinch horses that have wider shoulders, so look to see if there are dry spots on his withers after you go for a ride (assuming you CAN go for a ride that will last a reasonable amount of time to start him sweating.)
Change his feed, yes, but don't do it all at once. You can reduce his sweet feed considerably and start adding a low-sugar pellet just a cup or so per feeding . . . and gradually go up on the pellet and DOWN on the remaining sweet feed over the next two weeks until he is completely off the sweet feed and on a reasonable measurement of pellet. If your hay is good, he may not even need much for grain, although being as he's a TB, he may have a high metabolism.
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 4:09 pm:

Hi Sara, I am not familiar with what hay is grown in Ohio. You need to switch him to something that is balanced with enough protein, calcium and phosphorous. Sweet feed has is a high energy feed with lots of molasses and he is on a sugar high. I would not give him anything that has molasses and I would talk to a local feed store manager who has years of experience. I had a 33 yr old mare who was a finicky eater the last couple of years and I had her on Senior feed with a cup of corn oil and a wheat bran mash every night. She also had lots of time to nibble on alfalfa hay mixed with timothy, orchard and rye. I would not use Senior feed on him because of the molasses but the feed store should be able to suggest something else that can help with the weight issue. He should not be cooped up so much of the time, if you can't get him turned out every day you might want to look for another place to board him.
New Member:
sarah37

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 4:15 pm:

THANK YOU ALL!!!!!
Member:
annes

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 4:18 pm:

I agree - nothing wrong with wintec saddles. I use one on my TB because he is too tall for me to lift any other saddle on him. I also add corn oil (no more than 1/2 cup) per feeding to add calories - he is a hard keeper. I want to emphasize the advice by Holly Wood - do not suddenly change his feed, gradually change him over to the new feed you choose. I am sure with the extra time out of the stall you will have your "perfect" horse back. Good luck!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 8:11 pm:

I just wanted to add that on a "hard keeper" make sure he's wormed properly and that his teeth are o.k. (There are articles on this site about both the worming and teeth.) If all is o.k. in those departments, I've had very good luck with Purena's Equine Senior. It is a "complete feed" meaning it can be fed alone with no hay, but I use it along with hay. That and some corn oil seems to keep weight on a horse without them getting "hot." IMO horses, like kids can get "hyper" on too much sweet feed, although I've read articles that disagree with that premise.

Your problems could be a combination of the feed, no turnout, and then his learning he can "manipulate you." I like the routine ideas posted earlier, btw, for correcting him, but make sure you don't get hurt! Sounds like you've already "taken your lumps." Be careful! Like the others, I think he'll work through this.
Member:
alden

Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

The articles can say what they want, but I have a gelding that doesn't tolerate sweet feed well. He doesn't get so much hyper as he gets silly. Feed him all the plain oats you want and he's a great strong mountain horse, feed him sweet feed and all bets are off.

So I feed either plain oats or corn along with as much hay as they can eat. If you can find dry COB (Corn, Oat, Barley) it is also excellent for weight gain.

All his problems probably can't be blamed entirely on feed. You did rescue an ex race horse, he was trained to be competitive from day one. It's likely it'll take longer to un-train these habits than it took to teach originally.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
jewel318

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 1:03 am:

I agree with all the others the sweet feed needs to go, and some sort of complete feed with corn oil will do the same trick, also here in Canada we have a some great stuff called beet pulp, you wet it down usually with hot water it plumps up fast, but with cold it takes at least 2 or 3 hours I usually make it up at morning feed to be fed at night feed. It's pretty cheap and you use so little 1 cup plumps up to about 3. I use it all winter for any of my guys who tend to need more during the cold winters we have.
Anyway what ever you find make sure it doesn't have a lot of sugar in it and decrease the sweet feed and increase the other gradually.
I too have a Wintec and it is the most comfortable saddle I have ever sat in, it is a Isabella Dressage Wintec and I adore it, I have sat in my daughters $3000 saddle and I much prefer my wintec, also I have the changeable gullet system so I can change it to fit any horse.
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 9:01 am:

Sarah ... here are some exercise I use which work very well for me with a horse that is a little hot, or wants to rush into the lope and buck. As I mentioned, I am working with a mare now with similar problems, and she is getting better each day. At least, she has not thrown me since the first day .. yet.

Make sure you have reinforced all ground work exercises first, like flexing, lunging, sending, etc. When you mount, get your horse to stand until you are ready to ask for forward. Use lateral flexing and one rein stops to both sides to soften and relax. Ask for walk, then do one rein stop .. when stopped, flex to both sides, then walk out again. Repeat as many times as necessary to get horse calm .. usually about 10 minutes each side.

Then ask for trot for a few strides, then one rein stop and flexes. Any time your horse tries to increase speed on its own, immediately go to one rein stop and flexes.

Once you are comfortable you have control at walk and trot, ask for a few strides at lope, and repeat the stops and flexes.

When you and the horse feel comfortable with the one rein stops, continue the exercises, but replace the one rein stop with a bend around inside leg while maintaining impulsion at each gait. Do a couple of turns around your leg, then release out of turn and repeat.

Do these exercises for a couple of weeks, and I think you will have a much softer and calmer horse.
When you are on the trail, and have room, throw these exercises in once in a while and then walk on out into the trail again.

DT
New Member:
sarah37

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 10:08 am:

All of you have been EXTREMELY helpful. As of today, I am slowly switching him to a new feed by Buckeye.."Safe & Easy". It has high fat content, but no starches or sugars. It is very naturally nutritionally sound and I feel it will help tremendously. I will take him off sweet feed gradually and slowly. The expert says I should notice a big difference in 2 weeks. I know that this is not going to solve all his behavior problems. He has come to think he can throw me off any time he does not want to do something. Total manipulation. I am a whimp when it comes to discipline, but, if I want to live, I have to change that. Dennis, your E-riding lesson will be put to work right away. I don't understand some of the things because I am not a seasoned cowgirl with too much western training. I used to ride hunter jumper and have had very little training otherwise. I am horrible with my legs. But, I will print your advice and take it to someone who knows all the terms and have them work with me. I am trying to find someone in my area willing to ride him on the trail for me and rid him of his bad habits and me of mine. If anyone knows a good trail riding western trainer in my area (Ohio,Bainbridge..near Cleveland) I would appreciate a referral. I'm so glad I'm not feeling ashamed of my Wintec anymore....I love it too. :}
Member:
sarah37

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 10:14 am:

Oh, I forgot, dentist is coming next week to check teeth.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 2:30 pm:

Sarah,

As he's adjusting to his new feed start doing the things Dennis suggested. If you get RFDTV, you might find something on there. Sounds like you and the horse need to learn the respect and ground training exercises to start with then carry them over to work under saddle.

Even if the change in diet helps with his high energy level, which I am sure it will, he has had a few episodes of getting away with crap and now has to review how to focus on you and mind his manners. Never, ever, forget the importance of what can be done from the ground. Like Clinton Anderson's Lunging for Respect. His 2 eyes on you at all times. (more things for you to learn, huh?...enjoy the journey, stay safe)

Good luck and keep us posted how it's going. We all learn from each other here.

Of course DT is our real cowboy horse trainer,

Got a helmet yet Denny?
Member:
shanson

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 5:41 pm:

One other thing, Sara... If you have access to an arena or large round pen, you might want to ride there for a while until you get these issues under control. The discipline and training progress you make in the arena will transfer to trailriding. And, it would be safer for you. You might also consider checking around your local area for someone experienced with off-the-track thoroughbreds to help you. Like the others have said, this kind of misbehavior needs to be nipped in the bud and you may need help.

You wear a helmet with this guy, right?
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 7:50 pm:

Sara, Dennis talked about flexing and one rein stops. They do the same thing, take the horse's nose to the side and hold it until they give to the pressure. It is one of the exercises that Clinton Anderson teaches as well as John Lyons and many of the other natural horsemanship teachers. You should start on the ground, stand close to his hip and slide your hand down the rope. Then pull his head back towards you. You will probably need to hold tight to the saddle with the other hand and follow his rear as he will turn rather than give you his head. Hold on until he stops moving and gives his nose. Immediately give a big release, that is his reward, keep doing it on both sides until he follows your hand as you take up the rein. You cannot do too many. When he starts to leave his nose turned towards his side rather than take it back you will have a much softer mouth. It is usually safer to do this on the ground first until he has learned what you want him to do. You do not have to pull his head real far around at first, John Lyons teaches the baby give. What is important is that he is giving to pressure. My understanding is that race horses are taught to lean into pressure on the bit to balance themselves at high speed. When you get on pick up the rein on one side and bring it up towards your hip and practice until he is as soft as he was on the ground. Do it while standing still, then at a walk but do not release until his feet stop and there is no pull on the rein. Do not go faster until he is very good. This is the one rein stop that Dennis was talking about. You can then flex his head to both sides. I would not go out on trail until you can get him to do this perfectly at the walk, trot and canter. While you are doing these exercises spend some time working on his back up, turns and other cues. Then when you go out on trail keep his attention on you by making him do something, especially if he is still acting up around the other horses. I hope that I have explained things well, if you are not sure let me know and I will try to do better.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:11 pm:

Sara, Dr. O will correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to gradually reduce the sweet feed--you can stop a concentrate cold turkey. It's only when ADDING a new feed that you must do it gradually. I would not give this guy one more DrOp of sweet feed or anything with molassas. I'd be careful about any grain based feed. And turnout, turnout, turnout! Good luck and stay safe. If you find a trainer who will work with both you and the horse, you're both going to learn a lot.
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:28 pm:

Sara I agree with Julie about stopping the sweet feed and a good trainer can be a godsend. I have a mare that I restarted with the help of a great guy. She also had bucking issues but her problem was being very cinchy and reactive. He said that he had only worked with one horse worse than her. Now he is training us in dressage and we are both thrilled with how far she has come since January.
Member:
kthorse

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 7:21 am:

One other tip with the one rein stop. at the exact time you stop or flex to the right put your right leg back and make him yeild his hind quarters it makes the one rein stop 100 times more effective. Can he yeild his hind quarters? They cant do anything with the back legs crossed
Katrina
Member:
sarah37

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 9:50 am:

Wow- GREAT TIPS and instructions. OK - no more sweet feed.
I'm so excited right now. I found this jackpot of a cowboy that is going to take my horse for 30 days and train him properly. He takes "off-the-track" tb's all the time. He will ride him on the trail every day for 30 days. He is a natural horsemanship trainer and will teach him things he does not know as a racehorse. He is then going to work with me for a few weeks to get my riding skills up to par. I am so grateful for all of your advice...By the weekend I should be able to get on him again...my bruises look like I have been hit by a truck and the muscles I pulled are healing. I will take all of this useful riding information and put it to work immediately. He leaves on the 20th, so I have a week to work on it a little bit. I am confident I will be back on the trails safe and sound in 6 weeks.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:01 pm:

Please update from time to time on how you and your horse are! I think you reacted beautifully to all the advice so for my part you are more then welcome to it.
Jos
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 6:54 pm:

Great Sara, you got some good advice here and it sounds like you have a good direction you are heading.

Remember the thread a couple of weeks ago about racehorses? It was referring to the way they are kept in stalls 23 hours a day, and fed lots of grain. Makes them explode when they get out.

As an ex-racer, your guy may be just doing what he was always expected to do under those circumstances. As Julie says, "turnout, turnout, turnout!".
Member:
nadia

Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 9:59 pm:

So, where is this cowboy going? Send him over my way! I'm in central Wisconsin and I have a thoroughbred that doesn't like trail riding much, barn sour and sometimes a little spooky. I am hoping to get him there, but I haven't had the time to work with him on that!
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 10:26 am:

Nadia,
Where about in central Wisconsin are you located? I am in Redgranite, which is 30 miles west of Oshkosh.

Sorry to hijack Sarah, temporary.

Linda
Member:
muffi

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 11:48 pm:

Sarah - and all - I had a very Bucky boinky horse this year early. Cold weather, lack of exercise and moving from one state to another as well being too lenient with him had it's toll. several things came in to play. He lost respect for me as I was slightly afraid of him for a while last summer 5 days before we moved from AZ to MN I had a bad fall where I broke my eye socket and had some serious surgery to correct. THat was the single most devastating issue with his actions. He acted up cause he could. I got a "cowboy" of my own. I called him A People whisperer. He worked with ME and taught me Horse language. My horse slowly began to accept me as alpha again. I spent Hours upon hours in the winter doing ground work with him to gain that back. Then on to the trail stuff, he was doing the Bucking thing - ALL THE TIME. I hated it I would hold on for dear life. then i started making him move his hips over, turn his head side to side when he tensed up. John Lyons said that when their head gets busy make their body busy. I could feel him begin to tense up and I would move him - make him circle, side to side with the head. I don't have to do that now, but he does have to do 5 - 10 minutes of Ground work every time after i saddle him before I ride him, to make him remember who's still alpha. So, Now I have a big boy that loves and respects me and rides like a kitten! In 3 months the transformation is a totally different horse. Yea once in a while when we are goign from walk to canter or trot to canter there is what I can only classify as the BUCKS for Joy. He knows those are not allowed and they are small and not with the Rider Tossing vigor they used to have. I instantly correct this with a circle or a Back up action.
I also am very careful with his feed. He gets free choice Bermuda Grass hay - basically thre is nothing to it but roughage. I also feed a low grade Pellet - Mostly Grass hay and a little Alfalfa (like a 70 / 30 mix I think) and Rice Bran for fat and omegas. they also get a Magensium and Thiamine suppliment 1/2 dose once a day. this has gone a long way to calm him down. Like I said he is an absolute kitten now and the guy I fell in love with three years ago.
I would recommend that you take everyones advice - toss it in a blender with what your cowboy is trying to teach you and use what works for you and your race horse - :o)
Happy Trails
Member:
sarah37

Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 3:47 pm:

Nadia,
I actually have to go to the cowboy. His name is Steve Shipley. He has a website Shipleyequineservices.com. He is in Ohio (Toledo area) which is actually about 2 hours away from my hometown of Bainbridge (near Cleveland). He is going to keep him for a minimum of 30 days. He will ride & train every day. Then, I will go for a weekend for him to work with my bad habits and help me to learn how to properly cue my horse. After that, I have a guy in my hometown that trains western, barrel racing, hunter jumper, everything, and we are visiting him for a couple weeks to work on my skills some more. I have discussed all of Dennis's advice with him and he is willing to work with me on everything he suggested. Muffy, holy crap, eye socket. WoW. I was feeling sorry for myself with the football size bruises and sprained muscles and ankle. I guess I can live with it. TB's are so much friggin work...but you gotta love em. I did the whole circle thing and making him work. Sometimes I would circle for 5 minutes each direction when his head started flinging. Then he got wise to it, and stopped warning me with the head flinging and would just go into a wild buck. I hate it that he is smarter than me.
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