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Discussion on Rein length
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 12:05 pm:
A recent converssation with a friend about rein length renewed my own questions.
She is an advocate of plenty of slack, she is primarily a trail rider.
as a trainer she gets many horses with issues from being held too tight.
I learned to ride western and while I was primarily self-taught my goal was always to use the least rein(probably misunderstood something along the way) I used leg and seat aids, ( I did some showing and always placed well).
I still consider myself new to dressage and while I can repeat much of the theory a lot of it is only 2-D; when my understanding becomes 3-D that is when I find I can really apply and explain.
So, whats running through my mind is;
to say contact contains the energy with the end desire being self carriage almost seems like an oxy-moron.
I do understand the difference between contact and hanging or gripping with the reins.
Is the goal, I mean the real end of the rainbow goal to be able to DrOp the reins and have the horse be able to perform collection and extension in self carriage? (I have heard of bridleless dressage)
Because of the complexities of lateral movements I think rein contact to communicate directions will always be necessary.
Help to clear the mud? Thanks
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 12:33 pm:
hi lori
for a lot self taught you taught yourself pretty good!!
the goal is always self carriage and the highest level of collection that that horse can achieve... a swinging back and true thruness are imperative...
very few people will try to go bridleless or "reinless" and achieve self carriage thru that way... instead its about that feeling of knowing your horse is completely thru in his back, not holding any tension anywhere, and completely responsive to even the slightest request from the rider... (oh so hard to achieve!!!)..
in a horse that is truly in self carriage, the use of the reins become almost unnecessary-and indeed are unnecessary, as is evidenced by those doing bridless dressage.... you communicate direction thru a shift in the riders weight and position.. collection is carried thru the midsection, with virtually no weight in the hands...
dont know if i've helped to clear your mud any...as you've probably noticed, its not the easiest subject to explain-or do!
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 3:29 pm:
A very fine example of bridleless riding is Stacy Westfall.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 4:16 pm:
I am self taught also. I don't know if I can clear up the mud but my personal belief is use the reins as needed and then as lightly as possible. I think the problem lies with the extremists at opposite ends of the training spectrum. You have those who think that the reins must be loose enough to jump rope with and those who always have contact. You cannot make a mouth with no contact, nor can you have a good mouth with constant contact. Of course purists will say there isn't so much a "good mouth" but rather the whole horse is soft and supple. True and what we all try to achieve.
If a horse says "yes, what can I do for you" when you pick up the reins, I consider that a well trained horse. A horse can feel which rein you are picking up, and what foot you are talking to by how you lift the rein. A horse can feel tiny vibrations also on the reins which is what I TRY to do for collection.
Now, I can probably write about this better than I can actually go out and do this on a horse! But, heck, I am having fun and my horses seem to enjoy life with me.
So, Lori, I think you've got it figured out just fine. I wonder if your friend ever gets into wrecks trying to find contact with her horses mouth after bringing up all the slack in her reins?
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 9:38 pm:
Hi Lori,
I hear your confusion and the more I read from different trainers, books, masters, etc the more confused I get. You are not alone. They have all different opinions. The above advise is great. when you watch bridle less dressage the horse is not always with his head vertical which most people consider collection. So what Melissa says would confirm this thats its the body thats collected. (I think she means that) That makes the most sense to me. However some say that the horse has to have his head on the vertical to get collected. This is when you need contact and where it becomes confusing to me. doing shoulder fore and shoulder in etc. collects the horse automatically .The more exercises they do to strengthen the back the more they can collect which is why it takes a long time. I don't need reins to tell my horse where to go or where to turn etc he is very fine tuned to me. However he hates rein contact for more than a few minutes at a time even soft. He gives his head instantly with the slightest touch. Similar to what Angie is saying. I am getting confused as I write this. so many whys ifs and buts. I am trying to teach mine to accept contact for longer periods of time and stay forward with impulsion. Its not easy. Some well renowned books say start contact strong from the beginning to teach them to accept it and that the horse needs it others say the opposite. Now I am confusing you more. I have a soft supple forward horse, but somehow feel after reading so much that he should accept more contact so I am going to try it I so hope I don't mess him up. I love dressage and he does most movements but I have to reward him way more than is dressage acceptable to keep him doing it. I guess I did not answer you question but confused you more. You are not alone in this mystery with everyone saying different things
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 9:32 am:
Then to add to the confusion we have the idea that says a horse should "take the slack out of the reins and reach for the bit when he starts using his back end". If the reins are too loose, how would you know if that is happening? How many people can feel the slack being taken out of the reins? Does it make you a better rider, and your horse a better horse if he does all that on a very loose rein?
I was taught that you need to go out and trot many miles on a straight line and when the horse starts getting tired, you ask with your legs and then the horse will reach for the bit as described above. You hold that for a few stides or whatever you get, then let the horse walk as a reward. (I might add, I do arena work now more than this going down the road thing myself...got spoilt with my little arena I did)
I have found that starting with contact first then trying to back off...lighten up, it harder than the other way around. And I think doing all the lateral flexing makes a world of difference...think Clinton Anderson and all his "bringing the head to his knee exercises".
Katrina,
What is "dressage acceptable"...your horse is going forward, accepts contact, and is a joy to ride...why mess with that? Just my opinion, but I am not so sure what I see dressage riders doing is being light to a horses mouth...of course I don't really pay much attention to them really just thinking the few times I have watched dressage. Maybe I've never watched really great riders.
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Member:
teddyj1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 2:05 pm:
Hi, I'll confuse the issue even more. There has been a discussion that the very term "ON THE BIT" is a mistranslation, that it does not in fact translate from the FEI, and that us poor Americans(and now, many Europeans) are striving for a connection that The FEI never intended ! The train of thought is that the translation is closer to "IN THE BRIDLE", and even better still "ON THE AIDS". There's a very good article written by Dr. Max Gahweiler(sp) and Bettina Drummond on the EclecticHorseman.com website, well worth the read.
Also please check out a friend of mine's website Karen Rohlf dressagenaturally.net she's breath taking, and has a 2 min. video clip from her DVD you can view of her performing dressage brideless and bareback.
Good Luck,
TOD
"Holsteiners Are Winners" AHHA
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 1:24 pm:
Lori,
"to say contact contains the energy with the end desire being self carriage almost seems like an oxy-moron." One image I keep in mind is one of those suspension bridges, such as the Golden Gate. The arch supports the bridge. Without the arch, they would need many, many posts in the water holding the bridge up. I believe this was in Sally Swift's book "Centered Riding". It is an excellent book. So, we ask for contact, but we look for and reward a soft mouth reaching for it. In that way, the horse rounds his back and brings his hind quarters under himself more, and much like the suspension lines on the bridge, his backbone becomes more supportive of our weight.
This is the theory. I think in reality it is very hard to achieve and many people mess it up. Holding our horses tight in their mouths makes them anxious, worried, resentful. All things contrary to the goal of a soft, supple, happy horse. That becomes the challenge. To achieve happiness and relaxation, while also teaching your horse to hold you, the rider, in a more supportive manner.
I have learned this the hard way, and spent a year un-training my horse after he became resentful of my tight hold on his mouth. So I am learning too. Slow, consistent, steady contact for very short periods of time, and gradually increasing it. Takes a lot of patience!
Good luck.
Linda
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Member:
trouble
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 2:32 pm:
I am new to dressage and have been taking lessons for about 8 mos. I really like it, although having ridden western all my life with such light mouth contact, I have had great difficulty with the amount of contact that I am asked to have on the mouth.
I am riding a school horse, one who is relatively new to dressage as well. He seems to be very willing, but I still have issues with the contact that my instructor says I need to have with him.
I would really like to work with my own horse on dressage, but he has only known a loose rein all his life. He is a 12 yr. old quarter horse, and I am afraid I will sour him if I ask him to perform in this manner.
My goal would be maybe to just show training level with him, but I am not sure if he would be willing to accept this much contact.
Any advice on how to start him?
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