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Discussion on Toes in or out?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2003 - 11:09 am:
Hi, I have ridden owned and ridden most of my life. As I child I was tought heals down toes in and have ridden that way all my life. I am now in my 40's and decided I need my bad faults corrected and started lessons to improve my riding. My instuctor has been asking me to keep my toes out so that I have more calf pressure and less thigh and knee.To me, I do this to tell my horse to move faster, to do it all the time? This is totally opposite of what was taught 20-30 years ago. Is this what they call centered ridding? Everything else is the same as what I know. Is this right?
confused.
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2003 - 12:39 pm:
What type of lessons are you now taking?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2003 - 8:55 pm:
Hi I ride english. I competed in many shows as a kkid and i was taught never point your toes out.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2003 - 10:11 pm:
From what I understand, the old school taught that you should keep toes straight ahead. I used to stand at the kitchen counter with my toes turned in so they would be straight when I was on a horse. Toes straight ahead puts an awful stress on the rider's knees.
The newer school is teaching toes out A} BIT . . . not a lot. . . .and for the reason mentioned by your instructor, so the leg can be used more effectively with less movement and more contact . . . . less heel, more leg.
So . . . . after becoming bowlegged . . . . I find that it was all unnecessary . . .
Holly
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 1:05 am:
Katrina,
I took dance lessons from 3yo up and I have kept up with the exercises ALL these years. I ride with my toes forward, but I have many friends whose conformations don't allow that. I think that you need to ride according to your conformation.
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 7:37 am:
Hi Katrina,
One more idea comes to mind - you mentioned you are trying to 'correct bad faults'. Is it possible your instructor is trying to get you to relax your leg (and possibly the rest of your position)?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 7:43 am:
Holly,
Thanks, I did the same thing, all these exersises to keep my toes straight. I do have less knee discomfort with more calf action. I guess my instructer is making me exaturate my feet position untill it becomes more natural. 30 years of riding one way is not easy to change. Thanks for your imput. Everyone I know tells me to keep riding toes in. They are all from the old school. I want the most comfortable position for my horse so I am willing to change. I was beginning to worry about my instructor, but now I will keep my confidence in her.
Thanks again
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 7:54 am:
Who are these young upstarts calling us "old school"?! Seriously, unless you're showing, what difference does it make? I ride toes forward because I grew up riding thru brush and scrub. You can't catch your stirrup so easily if it isn't sticking out.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 7:59 am:
Hi Cheryl,
I think that toes forward can not be done naturally unless you have strenthened the particular muscles over a long period of time. I dont even think about it they just point that way.
I am relaxed when I ride my old way. I tend to tense riding the newer way because it feels weird and I have to think about it rather than relax. I wanted lessons because I havent had them in a while. I really dont know if I have bad faults i just wanted someone to observe my riding and correct me if I need it. The only thing my instucter said needs improving is more calf action. Seat and hands etc are still good. Sometimes you need and independant person to give you unbiased tips.
Thanks for you imput. I appreciate it.
Katrina
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 10:20 am:
Pointing out sounds a bit extreme to me, but at 50, I am surely old school!
I continue to be taught that the rider's position should be such that if the horse was removed in one instant, the rider DrOp to the ground and be able to stand balanced. So, things like a chair seat don't allow this.
The idea is to have a long leg via the thigh - as if you are thinking of kneeling. Do not grip with the inside thigh muscles. Do now allow your knee (or toes) to point east/west, GRIN. However, the part of your foot in the stirrup should be evenly weighted across your foot, not leaning toward the outside edges with a broken over ankle to get a deformed "toes in" feel. If you think about lengthening your leg by "kneeling" through your thigh, this should help.
If you are wearing tall boots, the dirty area of the boot from influencing the horse should be the inside of the calf and not the back by the seam.
Also think about keeping your lower leg lightly on all the time. When you want to influence the horse to go more forward or move laterally, the lower leg aid is a squeeze/release instead of a bump coming from nowhere (which is what happens when the lower leg is off most of the time). People often think of "draping" the leg on the horse like a wet tissue.
Seat issues often stem from the torso and head! So be sure you aren't looking down (my ODG instructors would scream "You go vhere you look!") and be sure your shoulders are back and chest is open with an erect rider posture.
Getting a proper seat is very hard and maintaining it is hard, too. If you horse lunges, I highly recommend lung lessons to work on the seat. I also highly recommend riding without stirrups if you can. Even walking in warmup without stirrups will help lengthen the inner thigh muscles and open the hip angle.
So there is an old f**t's 2 cents.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 10:37 am:
Christine,
Thats how I was taught.
My instructer keeps telling me to have heavy calf contact. Shes says I dont have enough. I feel like I am asking my horse to go faster with all this pressure from my calfs. She keeps saying squeeze tighter and I have to squeese as tight as I can. Its weird to me.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 10:43 am:
There should never be pressure on your horse from your legs or hands, unless you are asking for a specific response. Once you get the response, the pressure should be released. Are you certain you are understanding your instructor correctly? Constant pressure is unnecessary, detrimental to training for a light horse, and very tiring for the rider.
Holly
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 10:50 am:
P.S. . . . "Old School" and "New School" are relative terms. Maybe I should have said, "When I was reading riding articles back in the 60s, (1960s, not 1860s  ) I read that toes should always be straight ahead. In my adult life, I took lessons from a Classical Dressage trainer/Centered Riding Instructor. She told me that "straight ahead" was too severe, and judges and trainers were now advocating a more natural, slight turning out of the toe. This more relaxed position puts less stress on the rider's knees and allows for more contact from the inside/back of the calf for closer, more natural contact when using the aids.
Holly
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 11:08 am:
Holly,
Yes she is actually tells me to squeeze more with my calfs which makes the horse faster then I have to keep half halting her. I do this on the lunge on a riding school horse. If I squeezed constantly on my young horse he would be confused as I have him on the lightest of aides. Maybe I should look for a new instructer? I was doing great before I went to lessons. Maybe I should ride like I always have but let my toe out ever so slightly and not be so rigid. I am going to ride bareback for a while. I think that will put me back to where I should be (not so confused).
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 18, 2003 - 11:29 am:
Katrina,
Riding shouldn't feel like a chore or be uncomfortable for you or for the horse. When there are discomforts, physical or mental, it is a sign that something needs to change. Now, discomfort can lead to both positive or negative change. Both kinds of change lead to growth. You'll have to follow your heart, but before you change your instructor, maybe you could meet with her to discuss some of your internal struggles. A good teacher will check in with his/her student during the lesson, to evaluate the student's comfort level and comprehension, but sometimes teachers get too busy and can get into an assembly line mode (Okay, that lesson's done . . . NEXT!) If there was something that you admired in your present instructor enough for you to ask her to teach you, maybe she just needs to hear from you outside of the lesson time.
Bareback is wonderful . . . . if your horse's back can handle it. Sometimes a bareback pad (Colorado Saddlery has a great one) can make the horse more comfortable from the concentrated pressure of our seat bones, and then both of you will be able to enjoy it more.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 19, 2003 - 2:57 am:
Personally I've always had trouble keeping my toes forward which is certainly what is still taught as correct in Ireland. (The boot test that Chris mentions is regularly checked by instructors here...)
I found that concentrating on keeping the toes relaxed/up as opposed to "pushed" up plus what Chris says about the long thigh/kneeling and chest open was the key. I would stress the chest and head. I know it sounds weird but you'd be surprised how many other things fix themselves once you start opening up your chest and shoulders.
All the best
Imogen
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New Member:
Horsepix
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2003 - 1:41 pm:
A toe-out position effectually locks up your hip socket, and forces you out of the saddle. It also clamps your lower leg onto the horse -- a BIG no no. Toe-neutral to toe-in allows for a freely swinging hip and a natural lay of your leg along the horses barrel. When you ask for your aid, you ask only be closing *the entire leg* (not just the heels) against the horse.
You may want to look into some books on dressage training. Dressage will help you and your horse in whatever discipline you choose to ride/compete. Here is a listing of invaluable dressage books: https://www.dressagerider.com/bookstore/training.html
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2003 - 7:28 pm:
Thanks Amy,
I have been concentrating on heals down with only slight calf pressure, it feels more natural.and forgetting about toes out or in. With the toes out I was cramping in my inner thighs after long rides. My instructer was telling me to clamp my lower leg as hard as I could, mainly while cantering. weird.
I know excactly what a perfect seat looks like, but on the horse its hard to tell what I look like. I am not a rider who just rides. I constantly look for more info and study everything I can get my hands on especially dressage. I like to feel part of the horse when I ride and all this new info has confused me greatly. It did make me uncomfortable riding for a while. I pride myself on an upright tall seat . I won many competetions as a child. I have so many books is there a particular one that you recommend. I have stopped taking lessons for the time being as I got dissapointed, also I trained my young arab who is absolutly perfect.so I am doing something right. He responds to the lightest touch. I can even ride without rein contact just from my seat I think of turning and position myself as if turning and he turns. I guess what I am trying to say if I was so bad why is my horse getting better day by day.
Thanks for you imput. I dont know why I worry so much I just want to be the best I can be even though I dont want to do shows or dressage competively any more. I am doing hunter pace at novice level which my 6 year olds is loving. We got 3rd in our 1st 2 competions. thanks for replying Katrina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2003 - 10:02 pm:
My wife naturally "toes in" slightly when standing and I naturally "toe out", quite a lot. I think our optimal foot postitions in the stirrup would be quite different.
DrO
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003 - 10:09 am:
LOL DR O your so funny 
I have had to make it a point to work at keeping toes forward all of my life, Amy's is what I learned at Meredith's school.
An exercise we did while there was to tkae like a thick pillow and squeeeze it between calves and hold, in chair, and then kneees and hold. But frankly I believe the bucking machine riding hands free did more for leg strengthening than anything. I did notice while on that machine in effort to stay on my toes naturally went forward, because the sides are flat straight.
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Member:
Horsepix
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003 - 1:07 pm:
Yes...toe-in (along with a level foot -- not heels down) falls into the balanced seat school or classical dressage school. Shoving your feet down in the stirrups is not necessary unless you're going over a 3' fence. Even then, if you're balanced, its not always necessary. Great jumper position is very similar to great dressage position -- just with closed angles of the body.
There are many great books on that list, but one that every rider should read (I'm in the process) is Balance In Movement: The Seat of the Rider, by Suzanne Von Dietze. Wow. Great book. Truly emphasizes the importance of the riders seat and how our balance effects that of our horse, etc.
Katrina, although its great to have a horse that moves off your seat, it is essential that your horse accept consistent contact through the reins, or he will always travel on his forehand. Half-halts are essential to bringing your horse off his forehand whether you're getting ready to do a shoulder-in or jump a hunt course. Sounds like you're having fun though, which is the most important thing.
Amy
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003 - 2:05 pm:
Hi Amy,
Toe in with a level foot (slight heal down) is how I have ridden all my life untill I started lessons. Thats why I have been getting confused. In Australia where I was taught thats how you ride. This new instructer said that they ride differently now.
I was using an example of how well my horse responds. I dont ride like this normally. I do ride with rein contact as we are starting collection (on the bit or whatever people choose to call it.)which he is doing wonderfully. I have waited untill I see plenty of impulsion in his hind. We have very hilly areas where I live. I have been up and down sooooo many mountains and hills. He is doing so well. His Canter needs work, but he looks like a dressage champ at all his different speeds at the trot.
I will definatly try the book you suggested.
When I was in Australia I had a dressage champion living next door. She used to give lessons as well as pony club etc. etc. I grew up on an arabian stud. Unfortunatly there are not many instructers where I live. bummer.
Thanks Amy
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003 - 2:22 pm:
i teach very classically-my riders spend a lot of time on the lunge developing their seat. i dont teach toes in or toes out, what i teach is open up the hip, allow your weight to fall through your thigh and through your knee. if your hip is open, than your knees will be resting against the saddle, then your toes will fall where they conformationally will, usually close to forward on most people. we never grip with our calf, or try to artificially hold the leg in any one place. it creates tension in the muscles/joints, which passes on to the horse. relaxed, body balanced is what i believe(think tai chi).. as far as heels down, if your weight is correctly down through your thigh and falls out through your foot-not heel! than a stirrup in the right place will allow the heel to be "down"-but not because you're cranking it down, but because the stirrup holds the toe up-dont push the toe up!-allow the stirrup to do it.. rider just allows weight to fall down naturally/correctly through the leg, and heels take care of themselves..
personally, sounds like the way you used to ride is much better than what you're being taught now-are you sure you need the instruction? is there no one else you can work with? there are a lot of instructors out my way-very few i would ever want to work with though! not all instructors are good ones!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003 - 8:55 pm:
Hi Melissa,
I really only started instruction because I wanted a second opinion or to brush up so to speak . What I really should have done is get someone to video me. No I dont really need instruction. I just want to be the best I can be. Everyone at my barn thinks I am crazy to waste money on an instructer. I probably have had much more experience than my instructer. I guess I wanted to make sure I still rode as well as I did years ago. I dont have the dressage competions any more which told me how I was doing. That was my judge.I am going to do the video thing then I can see for myself if anything needs changing or improving. Thanks for your thoughts I guess I am a perfectionist and want to be the best, especially for this young horse I have now. He has so much potential.
I love to hear the thoughts of everyone.
Thank you again.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2003 - 6:23 pm:
Here is a picture of me and Blaze .We stopped for a second as we finished our 3rd pace. My husband quickly shot this picture. How is my leg position? I know its not that clear. I wasnt thinking about posing this is how I ride. What changes should I make? Is my seat ok?
Thanks for suggestions
Katrina
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 1:56 am:
Can't see due to your jacket and the dark photo but you look very smart!
Imogen
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 9:28 am:
Katrina-
As an old "old schooler" (age 61) this is an interesting discussion. I've never heard of "old" and "new" school. I agree the good dressage seat is the basis for all good riding, with adjustments as to discipline. However, my personal advice would be to not work so hard at riding. We all need practice, dedication, etc. but it sounds to me like you need to just ride for the enjoyment a little more. It would be good for both you and your horse. With your experience I suspect you are a much better rider than you think you are. Relax a little!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 5:49 pm:
Thanks.
Yes I do worry to much. Silly me. I guess its a bit like a baseball, or football player that gets older and you wonder if youv'e still got it. I have to just have fun. I guess its my competetive nature, wanting to be the best. I worry to much. I will relax. after all I dont compete any more and my horse loves me.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 10:14 pm:
What more could you want! 
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Member:
teddyj1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 10:37 am:
Katrina,
I was reading this old thread because a friend and I went for a lesson last week with a level 3 Centered Riding Instructor.
We rode school horses, not our own.
By the end of the lessons we were both very confused.
We both ascribe to the idea of using your lower leg only when needed, and as lightly as possible, keeping forward with your seat, and the horses natural impulsion, and engagement.
This trainer had us trying to keep our thighs off, and calf on(think Ballet Plie).
We both found the horses very dead to the aids, and needing constant "nagging" in my opinion.
OK- so why are we confused, the answer sounds pretty straight forward right?
I suppose because of the whole Centered Riding thing- when she explained her point, it sounded very plausible, but then I don't remember Sally Swift telling you to use more calf, and keeping the thigh off the horse. I recall something like, "draping the leg" around the horse, which in my mind includes the thigh.
My friend and I are both wondering if we just kept missing her point, and now are reluctant to go back for another lesson.
We thought this would be a great thing to keep us riding over the winter since we have no indoor arena, but now I'm not so sure.
What did you end up deciding to do, and do any of you have a better understanding of C.R.'s approach than we do??
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 8:30 pm:
Hi TOD,
Might want to ask the instructor. She may be a poor fit, or she may be trying to make a point (perhaps she was trying to get you to release in your thigh, with the perception that you were gripping there?).
Most good trainers use lots of different exercises to build a strong position-- that may be what you're into with this one. But some trainers are also goofy!
Can't hurt to ask, and that should give you some more info. for deciding whether you want to continue with this trainer.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 9:25 pm:
Hi wow I forgot about this post. I now realize why she was telling me to do this. Its an exersise so you dont use your thighs too much. I used to concentrate on my heels down so much I was actually stiff. This gets you moving with the horse. Its not something you will continue to do. But it gets you feeling you horse more. Once those muscles from opening your thighs more are strong then you can stretch again and drape your leg. I dont think she wants it as a permamnet way of riding but she wants you to open your thighs to deepen your seat. To get the feeling of being one with your horse in a more relaxed way. I was confused by this back then. It does help if you are gripping with the thighs
Just like Elizabeth said.
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Member:
teddyj1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 10:18 pm:
Hey Ladies,
well, I'm probably not the loosest thru my hips, but both my friend and I have ridden all of our lives, and I've never had a trainer have anything to say about my upper thigh position. Perhaps this is just the intro all CRI's put all new students thru?
I love my regular trainer so much, but she heads to Wellington for the long winter, so my friend and I thought this would be a good solution.
Perhaps on our own horses I could have understood the difference better, but the school horses were so "behind the leg" compared to our horses.
I simply sit up, breath out and my horse is light and forward, and then open my inside seat bone, and more or less "think Canter". I don't have to "APPLY" my leg, just seat and weight aids to get my lateral work and transitions. My horse carries himself, and I only remind hind him, other wise my leg is not continuously "on", but gently "there".
Having said all this, I suppose the whole reason we both decided to work with this trainer was to get a different point of view, so perhaps we should work with this trainer once more to see if we're more comfortable the next time out.
Thanks again
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2007 - 10:29 pm:
Hi TOD,
"Lady" eh? Cool.
Perhaps think of it as an approach to riding a different sort of horse? "Schoolies" are a special art for sure. I would still suggest you ask her to describe her approach, and how these exercises fit into a bigger picture.
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