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| Discussion on New Horses Arrive... Why Can't Everyone Just Get Along??? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: mitma |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 12:22 am: If I hadn't "adopted" six horses over the past six months, I really wouldn't have anything to talk about on this site, or perhaps, anywhere! That being said, I need some help (yet again) in figuring out this new problem. Two weeks ago, three mares I adopted arrived at the location where I keep my first adoptee, a 3 yo BLM mustang mare. Naturally, the three mares have been separated from the other horses at this property. For the past few days, each time I lead my 3 yo mustang to the round pen for her training session, I have allowed some "visiting" over the fence that surrounds the mares' enclosure (which is basically our riding ring, without any sand, but also with very little vegetation growing in it). There have been some episodes of squealing, flattened ears, and head tossing on the part of the three new mares, but no overt aggression and my mustang has been rather attentive and interested in these interactions. Among these three new (ex-PMU) mares, the social hierarchy is clear... there is an obvious alpha mare, another mare (pregnant) who holds her own quite well with the alpha, and a mare who does exactly what the other two want! My 3 yo mustang mare occupies the middle or bottom of the herd of four other horses that she normally resides with (26 yo AQHA mare, 3 yo BLM mustang gelding, 12 yo gaited pony mare, and a 12 yo BLM mustang mare... with the most to least dominant in the order listed).Now, about four days ago, I arrived at the property to find that the 3 yo gelding had run through two separate fences (woven wire, then the two rail wood fence of the mares' pen) to get to the new mares. I found him chasing/driving/snaking/biting all the new mares, as if he was a herd stallion in the wild attempting to steal another stallion's mares. The mares were fleeing for their lives, lathered up beyond belief, but they managed to kick the @&*! out of him; fortunately, they did not run through the wooden fence surrounding their enclosure. Once he stopped out of ??presumed exhaustion, I was able to catch him and lead him away. He and his favorite pasture mate, the 12 yo gaited pony mare are now living in their own enclosure far away from the new mares. Despite the horror of the chaos I encountered that day, none of the horses suffered any serious injuries and, in a way, it kinda makes sense that the only gelding on the property might behave in this manner. Nothing, however, prepared me for today. After 30 minutes of groundwork in the round pen with my 3 yo mustang mare, I walked her around the other mares' enclosure several times. I put her in her stall for a few minutes and pulled the alpha mare out of the enclosure putting her in another stall (she's half AQHA, half Percheron and a big girl, so I didn't want her beating up on my barely 700 lb mustang mare). Then, I turned my mustang mare out into the area surrounding the other mares' enclosure, where she promptly starting grazing (lots of new clover... yum). I then opened the gate to the mares' pen and the two remaining mares (one pregnant) promptly came out and started grazing on the new clover ( I guess my thought was that if everyone had some good pasture to occupy them, they would not focus on each other so much). Initially, there was the same type of behavior I had seen during the early "visits"... some squealing, head tossing, etc... no big deal!!! Then, I walked the two new mares back into their enclosure and followed by bringing in my 3 yo mustang mare. After a few minutes ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!!! Here was the really surprising part... it was my 3 yo mustang mare (normally, nowhere near the top of the herd hierarchy) who became the aggressor; she did exactly what the gelding did earlier in the week; she snaked after both mares as if to drive them somewhere, biting, pushing; it was just horrible. And to make matters worse, she kind of cornered the pregnant mare and turned kicking her a few times in the hind end. I was running around trying not to get run down or cornered by the watering tub myself; finally, I opened the gate and the two new mares ran out and I slammed it shut before my mustang escaped. Is this just possibly a mustang thing??? My mare was rounded up by the BLM as a yearling, as was the 3 yo mustang gelding. Does the new mare's pregnancy have any impact (we think she's due in mid May)??? Needless to say, everyone at the barn is back to a state of separation. Where should I go from here??? I really need all these mares to get along as I would like to house them together at my own property after the pregnant mare foals. Thanks in advance for any advice! (For those of you keeping count, you're wondering what about my two other adoptees... well, they happen to be a 2 yo draft cross gelding and a 4 yo Appy gelding who are quite bonded to one another and being boarded where they are currently in training; I can't even imagine what dynamics they may impart to the situation, but I hope to keep them away for now). Martha |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 1:56 am: Martha, sorry but it is very late here but I'm just LOL my husband thought senility had finally found me! I've been thru that on a smaller scale ended up with a hand broken in 3 places but the horses were fine!It could be a mustang herd dynamic that flares up.Our mustang is very laid back but when foxtrot mare came we went thru that driving action. My friend had her mustang do the same thing? So maybe??? All the ones I know have now settled but it wasn't fast. Glad eveyone is OK! I'm sure much advice will come but it is something they need to work out just"don't look"! Cindy ps no I did't follow my own advise |
| Member: imogen |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 2:58 am: Martha stop worrying you really can't control it overly and separating/joining/separating is making it worse. They will work it out.Even in herds that know each other sometimes unfortunately you do get nasty bullying especially over food. Mostly it's just show and they'll be over it in a couple of days. I'm not saying accidents don't happen, as unfortunately sometimes they do, but at this stage I would put them in together and stop worrying. Do not feed them grain for the first couple of days and when you do make sure you feed the most dominant horses first and that you have a system where you can either separate them when feeding in stalls or DrOp buckets down at distances where they can't kick each other but you can get everyone their share of food pretty much at the same time. Good luck! Imogen |
| Member: amara |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 8:56 am: i agree that in the end if you want them to all stay together you have to let them work it out... depending on how things work out you may or may not have a horse at the very bottom of the pack that gets picked on a lot, and might get some bumps and bruises more than the others, but rarely does it end up bad....where i'm boarding right now we have about 30 horses in a very large pasture together.. my arab is towards the borrom of the pecking order but at worst he only has a few scrapes...that said, it is always best to have at least one male in the group... a proper herd has to have an alpha male and female.. the rest of the herd is usually mares, with maybe acouple of very young males who havent been kicked out yet... the problem is that not all males are capable of properly running a herd... the male would go in and move the mares around at first, and he would "have it out" with the alpha mare, and then he should pretty much hang back and stay out of the way... his job wold be to round up stragglers as the alpha mare moved the horses from place to place... if the gelding you have does not have the mental "shutzpah" to be the alpha male then you will have more dysfunction in the herd, including horses getting ran around more, and picked on...(same goes for alpha mare too.) gelding or stallion makes no difference, as it is not the "man things" that makes a horse the alpha male...(*LOL*) how large a place will they be living in? the more dysfuction, the more space you need...the 30 horses together group that my guys live in is very dysfunction-just by its nature-but because the place is so huge we dont have any problems... plenty of room for everyone... imogen's advice at feeding time is very good advice, unless you can be there to supervise... good luck |
| Member: twhgait |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 10:17 am: Hi Martha,I have no idea what your set-up is, but I too, just recently brought a new mare home to my two established mares. We started with a common fence for three days...once the ear-pinning and squealing (on behalf of my Grandma mare, who's boss) slowed down, we brought in the Grandma to the new mare. Because of the common fence time, there was really little fuss (although new mare was not allowed 20ft within Grandma without Grandma giving chase). After about 2hours, we introduced my 10 y.o. mare (who I was most worried about being aggressive) and she and grandma paired up and just wouldn't let new mare close. Today is day 5 of everyone being together and so far, no major damage, outside of the new mare jumping out of her stall-long story-to be with the other two. I've watched the new mare slowly close the gap on the distance she's allowed to be to them. I think the common fence really, really helped. Can you set that up so they can have more face time before you put them together? Maybe line any wood fencing with electric fencing to ensure nobody barges thru the fence? I agree with the others....sometimes you just have to let them work it out themselves! |
| Member: christel |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 11:23 am: Martha, although its tough to watch, I feel they will work it out.The idea of introducing them thru a fence is good. I will put strange horses next to each other in a pen with a fence separating them for a few days, then put them together. There will still be a few fights but not as bad, I dont' think, as putting them in same pen for the introduction. I remember years ago when my now 17 year old mare decided at age 5 she wanted to be alpha. Her and my then 8 year old mare had it out, both walked with a limp for a couple of weeks after, but the 5 year old came out the alpha and has remained that way. All horses on my place stay out of her way. She will occasionally take advantage of the situation- will notice another horse in a corner and will literally mule kick the crap out of them- they get a reminder and will not get themselves in that situation for a while, then they seem to forget and allow it to happen again. I have never had any emergency vet bills due to this fighting- I figure if they are strong enough to deliver a good punch, they are strong enough to take one too. Funny how my alpha mare seems to hate the other horses, but when I take one away, out of her pasture she throws a fit, guess she likes being a bully. Good luck, I feel if left alone they will work it out, they will all learn their place in the order and live together quite peacefully- well until one of the younger ones gets brave and decides it wants to be alpha- but that too shall pass. Chris |
| Member: juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 11:47 am: I think leaving them alone to work it out is OK only if you have adequate space that they can easily get away from the aggressor. If not, you likely will have injuries and broken fences. If you can put a panel across any corners that will help. A cornered horse will often go over or through a fence. If the space is smaller than an acre or two, with that many horses I think the chaos is going to be too great. There should even then be no place where a horse can be cornered. Good luck--the fun never stops with horses does it? |
| Member: mitma |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 12:05 pm: Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions... Currently, the "home team" of horses at the barn has an established feeding routine (morning only, except for my mustang who comes in for a "dinner"), as they are out 24/7. For the new mares, we bring in the large (not pregnant) alpha mare, not because she's mean to the others, but because she will take everyone else's food and she does NOT need any more than she's already getting. The other two mares are fed together (and they do fine) in a trough. So, before I go out to the barn today and put my 3 yo mustang mare out with the others (of course, in order to do so I'm searching my medicine cabinet for a Valium now), does anyone have any concern about the fact that one of these new mares is PREGNANT??? (And, for anyone following another thread I recently started, yes, it's the same mare who's suffering from a significant mandibular abscess, that is dental in origin... unfortunately, due to her pregnancy, she really can't have any definitive treatment, i.e., surgery with general anesthesia, at this point in time.) And, what about when she foals??? Since she is an ex-PMU mare, she's not entirely familiar with "normal" domesticated horse routines, like for instance, when I've place her in a stall, she repeatedly KICKS the front door unmercifully. Clearly, she needs appropriate training, but I've been reluctant to do much with her due to her pregnancy and medical issues at this point in time. And, BTW, this property has alot of woven wire fencing, not in great shape and none of it with any type of top rail and, currently, no functional electric fencing (due to all the mustangs that have been here... it's prohibited by the BLM... and my mare is NOT yet titled to me!) I really don't trust the fences, but I have to be here for a number of reasons at this point in time. I know that sounds irresponsible, but it's complicated. Any last thoughts????Martha |
| Member: judyh |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 1:08 pm: Just a thought. I have heard Mary Ann Simonds speak a couple of times. She spent a lot of time watching wild horses and chronicling their behavior. She has a web site - mystichorse.com and might respond to this problem. She's also into holistic healing, etc., but it is her wild horse behavior knowledge that I think would be of help to you. Why don't you e-mail her? |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 1:11 pm: Because of the PMU mares circumstance I would be a whimp and be very careful with her also. If she could be right next to others it would be good. I have Electro-braid fence(wonderful stuff) that is solar powered and of the all my horses it is the mustang that honors it the best! But he also the 1st to know when it is not working ! How long til you get title to mare? Cindy |
| Member: twhgait |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 1:11 pm: I don't think you're going to be able to prevent scuffles. I think we can try and do things as slowly and meticulously as possible when we introduce new horses, but I also think that if a fight's going to happen, it's going to happen and there is really little we can do about it. I think if you TRULY have an instigator in the group, that horse should be kept out of the herd, and possibly just keep mom to herself until after she foals and the baby is a few weeks old. As everyone else said, the more space for them to run, the better it is! I boarded for many years...watched horses come and go all the time...I've only seen a few horses really try to kill another....otherwise it's kicks, squeals and a huge show put on for the benefit of the others! I don't think they would seriously maim eachother unless they were a real jerk (in which case, that horse should be kept out).Do you have a second person that can help you? |
| Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2007 - 2:30 pm: HI, If the fencing is not in good shape I would wait until you are in a better situation. I would suggest that you let them get to know each other with a fence between them but when you do put them together do it ONE at a time. Put a newcomer out in a large area and add one of the least aggressive horses. Then after they get along add one more. Try not to rush things, it may take a month to do it. Bring in the most alpha horse in last. And I would not add the pregnant mare, let her have the foal and wait until it is at least a couple weeks old. When I brought my new foal out to meet the other two horses I had my two dogs who were very protective of the new baby with us. And my horses respect me. Do your horses respect a longe whip? I had to break up a fight using one once. I didn't have much space and thought these two geldings would get along. I have a friend who had to put down her favorite mare because her boyfriend put her with another mare in a round pen. She ended up with a broken shoulder. My four horses have three acres with an arena, a round pen and a barn to break up the space. They can keep moving and not get cornered. And a second person to help is a great idea. |
| Member: mitma |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:23 pm: Hey Ya'll! (just a reminder that I grew up in the South!)The Sunday visitation went off pretty well... Initially, I pulled the big alpha mare out of the area, leaving only the pregnant mare and her "bottom of the herd" sidekick mare in the enclosure. Then, I put lots of alfalfa mix hay into the area, followed by my mustang mare. Everyone seemed to focus on EATING!!! YEAH!!! Finally, I put the alpha mare back in with the others; they all munched for a bit, then there was a bit of "activity"... The pictures below chronicle the fun! In the end, my mustang gave chase, but in a much less aggressive manner than previously... there wasn't really any "snaking", just chasing a little and the big, alpha mare was effectively defensive of herself and the other two mares... fortunately, my mustang mare didn't push the point. So I think things are going to work out O.K.!!! Because, this property is without human "supervision" for long times during the day, I decided to NOT leave everyone together (perhaps for my mental health more than anything). At this point in time, my mustang and the two other mares she's usually with are visiting with the three new mares over the fence again. After a few trials like Sunday, I will turn everyone out into the larger field (though, the mustang gelding who ran through two fences last week to get to these mares, and his pasture mate are still on their own for now). Thanks again for everyones' thoughts and advice! Martha     
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| Member: zarr |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 5:32 pm: Very very nice place Martha! Oh to have that much space! Hard to believe all these nice horses needed to be rescued, well done. Cindy |
| Member: mitma |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 6:49 pm: Thanks Cindy... but this place is not mine; it's just where I'm boarding all the mares (mustang + ex-PMU x 3 = 4 mares total!)... if you want to see my place (which is, unfortunately, about 75 miles from where I actually live and work) take a look at the pictures I posted last weekend under "Easter Winter Wonderland"...) In about a week or so, I will move my two geldings (currently in training) down to my place, where, hopefully, Terri's daughter, Lauryn, will continue to work with them, so I can ride on the weekends and not get hurt! Then, after Mitzee foals, I hope to move her, my mustang, and the other two mares down to "the river" (which is actually where my parents live). In the future, there may be a possibility that I can relocate there if the local hospital builds more operating rooms and would need more anesthesiologists!!! Meanwhile, I hope to "retire" there when I'm your age!!! (wink)Martha |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:34 am: Yes I saw your winter wonderland which I really liked the snowcovered blooming trees.I have 550 acres of open land right next to me the minute I win the lotto .....When you retire your horses will be like mine, I can feel their thoughts sometimes " maybe she'll go back to work soon"!Cindy |
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