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  Discussion on Stalling TB in race training
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New Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:24 am:

I hope this is in the right area. I'm dealing with a TB in race training.

Tradition (and the trainer) has the horse in a 12x12 stall continuously. The horse is out for about an hour a day to either train or walk (if a day off).

I asked about the ability to allow the horse 24/7 access to a small paddock for most of the training time and only stalling in the last few days before a race. He would get the same conditioning training, just trade the 12x12 for a 1/4 acre paddock and stall.

The trainer is adimant that the horse will not have "the energy needed to race" if it is not kept in a 12x12 stall at all times.

I'm trying to find information about the physiological (sp?) response/difference between the two approaches.

Approach A = 12x12 stall always (approx 6 months) and only out for training approx 1hr/day.

Approach B = 24/7 paddock turn out with same training program and only stalled up for the last 3-4 days prior to racing.

The question does NOT involve if the horse will injure himself, convience/cost, etc. It is purely about how the horse 'will never have the energy to race'.

I can see is that the stalled horse will have a higher energy level in that one hour out. But as he gets more fit, his training is becoming an hour long bucking session because he's so happy to be out of the stall. While it is nice that he is in such a good mood, I'm not sure his 'bucking' muscles will serve him well in a flat race. My belief is that if he is not pent up, he will have more focused training of the proper muscles and not be at risk of accident from kicking up at walls or bucking around. On his last day off, he was let loose in a 70' round pen where he bucked and darted around continuously for well over an hour. This scares me that he'll pull a muscle and is a huge amount of wear on his shoes.

I can understand how this pent up energy can help in a race, but my feelings are that 3-4 days of stalling before a race will accomplish a similar effect.

Have there been any studies about this? Or does anyone have any experience with this approach?

Kami
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 7:45 am:

I'll tell ya, I am not an expert on this, no experience at all with race horses.

Having said that, here's my thoughts:

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Keeping a horse stalled to preserve energy? What about the fact that movement improves his muscle tone? Strengthens his bones? His lungs? Keeps him supple too, which would prevent injuries?

As you said, the horse goes on a bucking and running spree when he is let out. As any horse would do when locked up in a 12 x 12 stall for days on end. As you, or the trainer, would do if kept in a box just big enough to turn around in 23 hours a day!

Not to mention how turnout would help him emotionally and mentally. He is a horse. Sounds like this trainer should race motorcycles or ATVs. Those would be better suited for taking out as needed to run.

I am sure DrO can point you to some studies and maybe someone else on HA has experience with this. I am now really curious to hear insight into the reasons why the stalling is a good thing. If there are any.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 9:59 am:

Hello USHO,
What you describe is traditional TB race horse preparation and I have never seen any scientific research into the subject. Angie they are talking about as much a "psychological" as a "physical" energy and as you correctly note stalled horses do usually get very psychologically energetic.

Do I think it is good for a horse to be locked up in a stall 20 plus hours a day? No and you can look at increased respiratory diseases and stereotypical behaviors as evidence. Is it possible there are better ways of doing this that include more pasture time? Yes this is possible but I don't have any scientific proof or specific methods that this will improve race times or decrease injuries.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:28 am:

Another reason I think trainers tend to keep race horses up all the time is that most tracks don't have any place to turn a horse out so they want the horses used to being stalled so it's more "normal routine" for them at the tracks. And, they feel the horses stand less chance of being hurt in a stall.

However, if a horse is bucking wildly every time it comes out of it's stall, imo opinion some turn out would be good for him. I've known horses that have hurt their backs from twisting while bucking, and they can hurt themselves in other ways also. Are you sure this horse is getting worked every day? When I was young and hung around the track, horses got worked hard in the mornings and seemed happy to be in their stalls resting the remainder of the day.

There are some experienced grooms and race people on this board. Maybe some of them have some better insights.
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 12:17 pm:

Keep in mind that most tracks have (at least the ones I'm familiar with) "meets" that last from 6-8 weeks, so this isn't a permanent lifestyle. It is as much a psychological regimen as it is a physical one...these horses know the routine, why they're there, and what to expect. Trainers want them to be explosive. There are lots of things about the lives horses lead at the track that are completely counter to what we do with our "normal" horses, but the practices are steeped in tradition, practicality based on the environment, and not likely to change. I'll tell you one thing...when I have leg/hoof questions, I call my friend who spent several summers as a groom before I call the vet out.
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 8:18 pm:

actually, this is a permanent lifestyle, as these horses go from meet to meet.. most of the owners and trainers dont own a facility where they can turn horses out.. they rent stalls at the track and work entirely from there...
the larger tracks have longer meets...horses on the NYRA circuit travel between aqueduct, belmont and saratoga for the entire year, and if you look at their race history you dont see any substantial break...

historically the reason for no turnout has been because A) there is no space on a racetrack, and B) chance of injury.... owners may spend $50/day or more (or less), depending on the quality of the track, to have their horse in race training...if the horse gets turned out somewhere, and then runs around like a loony and gets hurt, he's still spending $50/day because he has nowhere else to put the horse, and now he has no return on his investment.. keep in mind that a lot of racehorse owners are not necessarily horse people.. they are people who have other lives who enjoy horse racing and have a little extra money to spend to buy a racehorse and maybe a chance to have their picture taken in the winners circle..

there ARE some trainers who have gone the route you want to do, and keep their horses at a farm where they are turned out and then ship them to the track at race time...they are few and far between.. the results have been ok.. nothing spectacular, but not dismal... whether its due to the turnout and lack of "psyche" energy, or because these horses were not very good runners anyways, i have no idea, as i am no longer in the racing business (grew up in it tho (used to bring a racing form to grade school!!!))(and then skip aforementioned school to chance a picture getting taken in the winners circle with one of our horses)...

some of the better trainers (or lucky trainers) do have places where the horse can go for a break and get some quality turnout time... but the very large majority of those horses end up at the track several months before their first race and in a stall 24/7 except for workout time...

i dont know what tracks you are running at or what trainer you are using...and i dont know how to find out if there are any trainers in the region where you race that will provide for increased turnout time, other than just walking the backstretch and just asking... i doubt you'll be able to convince your trainer to let you turn your horse out more... he may not even have 24/7 access to a turnout area at the track.. usually any pens they have are shared, or used for the ponying horses...in the backstretch the trainer is god (i'm not saying i agree with this but most trainers have little use for owners and would rather you just sent them a check every month and showed up on race day...)

good luck
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:11 am:

What a fascinating world racing is....if you all have never read "Horse Heaven" by Jane Smiley, it is a wonderfully humorous, poignant, sometimes disturbing portrait of track life. One of the best books I've ever read. Treat yourself and get a copy...

Melissa, my OTT TB is one of the more fortunate horses that shipped in to different tracks from his home in Florida where he lived a pretty normal life in between meets. Very humane trainer as well. I realize that's sure not the case for most. My very limited knowledge of the track is through what I've seen here in Virginia, and my few forays onto the backside with friends in the business.
Member:
leilani

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 3:41 pm:

Jane Smiley also wrote "A Year at the Races" about her TB race horses. Very good reading. Leilani
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 10:32 pm:

Thanks for the responses! The trainer is willing to work with me. She has already altered many things at my request. Since they've worked so well with my horse, she's even adapted many to her other horses. She has been very tolerant of my asking "why do you do that?" Since I'm the owner and willing to take the risk with this horse, she has nothing to loose.

Many things are done because 'everyone does it'. Many times, I can figure out a logical root for why the habit started (like the stalling because there is no where at a track for turn out). But sometimes the original reason has become invalid or no longer exists and the practice just carries on.

This horse has been a good experience. Its amazing how many things are done as a habit without thinking about the 'big picture'. I am careful to ask the trainer (and others) the basis for what they do or what they're trying to accomplish. Then I try to research it, determine the effects on the horse and an alternate solution if desired.

As an example, there are many feed additives routinely given to racing horses all at the same time that are (most likely) for iron (e.g. molasses, blood tonics, +++). When I went through all of them and compared them to the actual nutritional requirements of the performance horse, some things (iron, Vit A, Vit C) where given at enormous rates while other things (Vit E) were nearly non-existent and oats made the Ca:P ration way wrong for any horse.

My trainer was sceptical when I suggested feed changes could make this horse feel better and then amazed when he became quite sane and almost cuddly (instead of the snarking/kicking monster he'd been) as a result of a feeding change.

But now that he feels so much better, OMG does he have energy! He does get out every single day. I've asked her to start giving him at least an hour additional in the round pen after his training sessions. Today, even with an hour of training, at the end of an hour in the round pen, he was still playing pretty strong and not ready to come in.

Since I'm the owner of the horse in question, turn out is an option for him. I understand the possibility of injury, but I also have the ability to rehab him on my farm at not cost if that happened. I can point to a local trainer that does turn out his string of about 10 horses and he's done very well with them. I was just wondering if there had ever been any studies done on the topic.

Thanks again for the input.

Kami
PS. Prior to my ownership, this horse raced year round (so lived in the 12x12). I do know many trainers that turn out their horses on the farm and only bring them into stalls for part of the year to race. Even in this situation, it is generally 4-6 months living in a stall. I understand many horses live year round this way out of necessity or due to traditions of the discipline. I'm just trying to work out a balance for myself that doesn't put the horse at an unfair disadvantage.
Member:
153337

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 5:01 am:

Hi Kami,

I have enjoyed this thread.

I think it is an incredible thing you are doing getting the trainer to work with you and question the why's. The horse racing industry needs an overhaul. I got to meet some people in the industry down here in Florida a few years ago and talked with a friends trainer regarding supplementation programs for their horses. I found it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would think it is normal for a horse to be stalled for so many hours out of the day. I think it makes them mentally break down after long periods.

I also cared for a friends TB with a suspensory ligament injury that was the worst, his fetlock about touched the ground. After a year of intense supplementing, magnets and mother nature, the horse got sound enough to be a pasture buddy and was sent south somewhere in miami, I think they are also using him for trail riding.

Hope your horse does great,
Amber
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 6:43 am:

It does amaze me when we get requests from race horse owner/trainers for information on the newest piece of nutraceutical magic meant to make horses race faster, yet when queried don't seem to have the faintest idea of what a horse's basic nutritional requirements are. Thanks for bringing your experiences to us.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 7:27 am:

Reading Melissa's post, I was thinking I'd never watch the Derby, Preakness or Belmont through the same eyes. I'd be thinking about what those horses endure just to run a little over 2 minutes for our enjoyment, and the owners moment of glory.

Now I feel so much better knowing there are people who are questioning the "WHY's."

Keep going Kami, it's people like you who make a difference. Maybe in our life time all horses will be treated like the magnificent creatures they are instead of another object to own.
Member:
amara

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:19 am:

those "abuses" (in my eyes at least) are the reason i have nothing to do with the industry anymore... i just cant condone what the horses have to go thru for the owner's ego... yes, these horses like to run, but they'd like to run just as much if they were in a big field with a bunch of buddies...
its a bit of a disappointment to my family, as i literally grew up on the race track.. i started walking hots as a kid-this was before i really knew anything about the way a horse SHOULD be treated...i stuck my racing form in the middle of my class books and handicapped horses before lunch, then called my father and he called his bookie (illegal in the state where we lived but he was a judge so got away with a lot)...i'd get my money in the evening, watch the replay on simulcast, then start it all over again...never realizing the damage i was doing to the horses by supporting the racing scene...
my brothers and father are still heavily involved and disappointed that i'm not still there.. my father SO wanted me to be a race trainer...

i am so glad you are able to work with your trainer and make changes to help the mental and physical health of your horse...he is a lucky animal
Member:
oscarvv

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 9:34 am:

USHO - So glad you have a trainer willing to listen to you. And you are doing a great service to your horse by looking out for him. That is much more than most race horses get.

I know Michael Matz likes his race horses to get turn out. He has a portable paddock set up, I remember pics of Barbaro in it.

One thing about race horse owner's - many don't have a clue or care about the horses. They let the trainer make all of the decisions and just want to have a horse running. I have seen some pretty bad trainers out there who really have no business making decisions for a hamster.

One example - It seems common knowledge that the majority of race horses have or will develop ulcers. But so many go untreated...let alone many trainers don't even think about preventing them. Often the racehorse isn't thought of for long term health - just get 'em to another race. Since their racing career is generally a very short one.
Member:
jivete

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 9:59 am:

I recently read about this racing facility that practices a more natural upkeep, including some barefoot racers. I thought it was interesting.

https://www.simonearleracing.com
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 12:27 pm:

I've seen Simon's racing site. I would love to have a horse racing barefoot, but many factors to address before it is a possibility. I like their web site and wish more natural stables would make it known that they're using 'non-traditional' techniques. Brother Derek trained barefoot and raced in glue-on shoes here in the US not too long ago.

Barbara, thanks for the info on Matz. I know many of his training techniques are also not the traditional approach, so this doesn't surprise me.

Melissa, I'm comming from a background of getting TBs that the racing has ruined. That is part of why I decided that I want to find a way to race that doesn't destroy the horse. Its hard to change something you have nothing to do with. So I'm on a journey to prove there is a better way (and am not the only one).

The sad thing is that these trainers treat these horses (physically) like they're made of glass and treat them mentally/chemically like they should just take anything. Its a pretty backwards approach. Unfortunately, it is like a religion with the 'experienced' trainers. So their animals are probably doomed until they retire. But if I can build a good stable, racing successfully using intelligent approaches, maybe it will sway some of the next generation. Let me know if you ever want to train that way.

My ultimate goal would be a 'natural' stakes series for horses 5 and up that are trained without drugs, barefoot, etc, etc. Know anyone with a coupe million to sponsor it?

If they finally admited that global warming is a posibility, maybe someday they'll admit that the current racing approach isn't as good as they think.

Thanks again for the input and encouragement!

Kami
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 7:59 pm:

if any remember my mare amanda (i wrote about her on here years ago), She was an OTTB... i had to reteach her so many things. and like said above habits without any real reasoning as to why.

For instance, she would hot walk, in one direction only. Everytime we tried to do it in the other direction she went ballistic. egads. I was told because that is the direction they race in. But logic to me would be hot walk in both directions you'll get a more balanced horse. Not this horse.

Or the on hand off hand sides most horses feel comfortable on both. Not mine. She was only picked from one side. both feet. Odd too.

I could ONLY saddle her in the stall. NEVER in the ring. and forget about cross ties. She has always been hand held for most everything in her life. I did finally get her to stand on one tie, but i never trusted her completely.

My girl NEVER was out in the rain. I finally had her ok in a turnout (that was a nightmare to get her to turnout) but then one night it rained and stormed. She had never seen a yellow rain poncho and she was in a lather over being out in the rain... On normal days she was turned out, all she did was pace the fence to come in. She was the typical horse that sat in a 12x12 all her life.

I did know of two horses that died from heart attacks from the feed the "old timer" used in addition to the red cells and supplements etc. DrOpped dead in their stall. No apparent reasonings. I know it was the way the fed for speed.


I found it all fascinating too when i was up against all the challenges. Luckily i had some trainers and trainer/owners where i lived that could help me sort this stuff all out.

I give you alot of kudos for questioning the norm, because one day this horse might not be suitable for racing, and wouldn't it be nice if she was suitable without stress to move into the dressage ring or hunter classes if that ever does come to pass. Thinking of the future of the horse and how it doesn't end up like most of them. Now that would be awesome.
Member:
amara

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:28 pm:

it would be great to see the racing industry care about the "afterlife" of their racehorses, but it would be great for some QH halter horse breeders to think about the afterlife for their horses (ok, i know its changed, but remember the "upside down pyramid" that was "perfection"? (or any other segment of the equine industry for that matter!!)

and what makes it worse in the racing industry, is, as mentioned above, a large majority of racehorse owners dont know anything about horses.. they think a horse living in a deeply bedded stall with round the clock attention and the latest in supplements is "the Ritz"....
over 25,000 racing TB's are bred each year....that's an awful lot of owners who need to be educated!...

but absolutely kudos to those people in any horse industry who are stepping outside of the box.. better yet that they are successful at it, because the success is what people need to see before they will change (unfortunately)...

USHO-thanks for your offer.. but i think the Sheriff I work for would be a little upset!!! (and dont tell the rest of my family or i'll NEVER hear the end of it...)(i LIKE my badge and gun!!)
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:57 pm:

jojo - actually he did start at my farm for two months. There he learned to be with horses. He had no clue about herd order, so he got a 7mo buddy who'd been traumatically orphaned and also had no herd sense. They would spend their days in a 1 acre paddock where the other horses could come over and talk to them. On 'exercise days' they were put into a 10 acre pasture where he'd love to just run and run and run. He gave the colt quite a work out in there.

Then he went to an excellent dressage trainer for two months, where he also was turned out with a group of 4 horses daily. It took a month before he'd get near them. But eventually he did. So there he learned to 'think' about things while under tack and again, had a chance to make horsey friends and play.

Now he's back in training almost 3 weeks. I'm thinking he's about due to come back for a week of R&R with his old buddy that is now approaching 1 yr old. The trainer already knows that he comes to the farm after any race. She wouldn't train him in that time anyway and I think its important that he's in a big stall (12x20) and able to go out in the paddock to work out any kinks from racing.

But I'm still looking for that good 'in-between' solution where his training can continue and he can still be a horse.

Later
Kami
New Member:
laura63

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 7:26 am:

kami,
I would enjoy exchanging info with you about the racing life of a thoroughbred. I've experienced training with my husband, galloped, rode races, and now I'm in the position of owning one and riding her in races. There are a lot of ups and downs about racing and I wish they could ALL be turned out. It would solve many ulcer problems and many bad habits brought on from bordom. Some TBs are cut out to be real runners and others can't handle the lifestyle. Last year I had a colt that I did EVERYTHING possible to get rid of his ulcers. I finally had to change his lifstyle. He is now a happy fox hunter. My filly I have now is all racehorse. loves to train. She is now recovering from an illness in Ocala and loves the pasture she is in. I get sad inside knowing I will be bringing her into the track where there is no turn out. I know as she gets fit again, she WILL hurt herself if turned out during her campaign. So I will make sure she has time to go back to the farm for R&R after some racing. Remember this: Barbaro was turned out during his campaign. We all need to observe and learn from experience. Racing is a tough life on these horses. Not all of them are cut out for it. You learn a lot from observing them and their behavior. Good luck.
Laura
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 3:11 pm:

Laura,

Send me an email to kbrooks@usho.org. Maybe we can do a yahoo group or something. I would love connect with anyone who is at least trying to race in a different way. Like you said, they all have different personalities and what works for one won't work for another. I'm 20 min from Mountaineer in WV. It would be nice to have a referal network of like minded people!

Kami
Member:
lloyd

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 5:21 pm:

I spend eight to ten hours a day with my race horses and challenge anyone to show me that they are not happy, healthy and in terrific race shape?
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 4:53 pm:

Some of you on this thread have probably heard of this person, but Janet del Castillo is another believer in "training outside the box." Interesting approach.

https://www.horseinfo.com/info/people/castillo.html
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 6:15 pm:

Lloyd R

I'm glad your horses are in great shape and very happy/healthy. The horse I'm working with was not.

I can walk down the shed row and see any number of horses demonstrating coping habits (weaving, head shaking, wood chewing, snapping at handlers) and am guessing that those particular horses might be better under a different management approach. If the trainer is not concerned that the horse is in a continaully agitated state, burning calories and stressing muscles/tendons, etc... that is the trainer's business. Not mine.

Just because I don't want my horses trained that way does not mean any other trainer has to change their ways. I have never suggested that a trainer (other than my own) change a single thing. When I ask about what they are doing, I simply ask. I don't offer any alternatives or even my opinions. I'm simply a blank sponge looking for information and they are generous enough to teach me.

I feel that if my way is successful then others may see an alternative. Just as I am looking to those who are already sucesfull. I have no dilusion of trying to change the mind of an established trainer who has no desire to change. Nor do I even say that they should change.

If my approach provides me a way to get better performance out of the horses that I have (and that they couldn't get to run) why would I tell them to change anyway?

I have been exposed to 'rescue' type things for more than enough time to realize what battles are even worth picking. I would be honest with anyone who asks me for information, just as some trainers have been with me. But I am in no way going around on some sort of PETA campaign and don't intend to.

It is good that your horses are happy and in great shape. I can point to several trainers that do very well with (and by) their horses. But you have to admit that not all trainers put the long term welfare of the horse equal to getting them into a race at all costs. This is true in all breeds and in all disciplines.

I wish you the best of luck!

Kami
Member:
kamibroo

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 6:30 pm:

Terri,

I have her book and its a good source of out-of-the-box thinking/ideas. I'm still working out my 'style' and I guess that will be driven by the resources and horses that I have available to me. But I do like her book.

If nothing else, her success is an encouragement to touch back on when the established trainers are poking fun. I'm becoming convinced that the hardest part of walking a different path is the 'stepping out' while the 'flock' is still trying to make you step back in. Eventually, I'll just be 'that crazy owner' and they'll leave me :-)

Kami
Member:
lloyd

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 7:48 pm:

Kami,

I agree with you that race horses are not worked with enough or loved enough. Racing has become a a win win situation for a lot of trainers, reacting to the owners orders. This is simply wrong and a trainer should not, in any circumstance put the purse ahead of the horses well-being, period. They are not trainers...

I jog and train my horses 6 days a week as well as take they on road trips just for fun twice a week and they enjoy the different sites along the way. They are bathed each day with a warm water shower head and their legs are cold hosed each night before retiring. They are walked again at night and their legs are wrapped and sweated. They are poulticed twice a week after hard training and racing. They are rubbed for an hour mid day everyday and turned out for 2 hours most days.

Lloyd
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2007 - 7:39 am:

Lloyd,

I'd love to be one of your horses! I could really use the leg wrapping and sweating, lol!

What a breath of fresh air to hear about some ones horses being treated so lovingly. Just wonderful.
Member:
lloyd

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2007 - 9:26 pm:

Angie,

I have an empty stall, plenty of wrapping and the sweat must be earned!

Lloyd
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 8:43 am:

Lloyd,
I think you've got a true "horse women's SPA" concept there, lol!
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