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Discussion on Black & Bucking!
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 5:54 pm:
I own a four year old, jet black, appendix gelding. Very pretty, very gentle, very smart. He is pretty straight in the hind and has sticky stiffle-though not severe. He was started very smoothly last summer with a trainer, she put 20 hours on him and said he was a dream-great mind, wanted to buy him. Then,he had a horrific bucking incident with her on a downhill slope-seemingly without provocation, then was solid under saddle another 10 hours with her. Then he threw me, and then my husband. Was then termed cold backed. He saw a vet who recommended a chiro and massage therapy-these all helped as he now moves great on his own-back to playing with stablemates. Green light given to resume riding-no more soreness in the back. Trainer tried him today-ok at first, then seemed to have some wierd movement in the stiffle/hock of each rear leg in two consecutive steps and on the next step bucked like a Pro Rodeo horse of the year. Launched the trainer. No warning, no ear pinning, but man he can buck like a champ! He's very sweet, doesn't seem malicious, but very smart. Worried now that he's learned how to throw riders, or maybe has a leg issue that was causing pain in the back, but now his legs still bother him. Anyone had a similiar experience? Thinking we need to sell--running out of money and time to work through this with him. Have other horses that need our attention.
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 12:06 am:
Sounds like he's in pain. If he's dangerous/in pain, who the heck are you going to sell him to? 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 6:48 am:
I don't agree with Suzanne on this, I have seen horses were I could not find a source of pain and the horse bucked wildly. If you do not see lameness when lunged and palapation of the back does not reveal obviously painful areas, I think this suggests this is behavor. If nothing is found on the medical exam and it is a medical problem it will be difficult to diagnose and prognose.
DrO
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 11:31 am:
If there is a physical problem, we would have trouble selling him, depending how treatable the issue is I guess. If it's behavioral, there are some folks that seem to like taking on those types, someone might want him! We worry that this is now learned, because he sure seems fine when playing with his stablemates, and you wouldn't think a horse in pain could buck with such skill! He's very athletic and very smart-which seems can be a tough combination! We're going to give him the once over again with the vet, and if we can't find anything physical, we're going to call some cowboy friends to see if they want him for a while, maybe they can work this out of him and get some use out of him to boot. We need someone to be able to ride through this and my trainer doesn't want to tackle him anymore-she's 46 and can't afford to risk an injury that could put her out of biz. I hate to sell him off, feels like we are giving up on him and it's not his fault we don't have what it takes to correct this, would hate to see him end up in the wrong hands.
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 11:50 am:
I'd have a look in his mouth ... make sure there is nothing that can cause a pain reaction and the bit is fine.
I'd also wonder about the saddle. Check that it fits properly, that the tree is intact and, if western, check the underside carefully for any nails that might be working out. Make sure it is not too far forward (shoulder should be free) and girth/cinch isn't pinching. Tighten it slowly, a few holes at a time.
I'd have the vet check him out - flexion, back, teeth, etc.
Assuming all was in order, I'd start a lunging program and always lunge him before riding as a transition from play to work.
Once lunging is going well, I'd very slowly build a history of riding. I'd never get on until he was steady and quiet lunging.
I'd take it much slower before riding out of the lunge ring and build a long history of successes before going on a trail.
If I got dumped, I'd go back to lunging. Dumping a rider doesn't get out of work, just changes the work.
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 12:02 pm:
I will defer to you in this, DrO, since you've seen many more horses than I have.  But I've seen several that bucked like that, and while it took quite a bit of investigating to find it - as you suggest - they all did have a physical problem - in their backs.
I understand how difficult this must be for you, Michele.  Please keep us posted.
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 4:00 pm:
She did lunge him before she got on, fully tacked, and he didn't even crow hop, moved just fine--walk to trot to lope. Moved fine at first when she mounted too (only at a walk-never got to a trot-she didn't plan to ask for one-the plan was to work him at a walk for several lessons and see how he did. Pretty sure it's not in the mouth, he has seen an equine dentist both before the first incident and since. We've tried different saddles on him, it doesn't seem to be specific to only one. In fact, of the four successful rider dumps-three different saddles were used. My trainers saddle, and my saddle and my husbands saddle. All of which are used on other horses including other young colts-you would think we would get a reaction out of one of them if there was a nail that we missed. Fit seems ok too. I'll post again to let you know what the vet says and I will have them take a look at the mouth again just in case.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2003 - 4:07 am:
I got launched off a 4-yo Sea Crest mare in similar circumstances a couple of years ago requiring a trip to the accident and emergency department for a suspected broken hip. I thought it was just me not having lunged her enough and the fact she was in strange circumstances (it was a real "You are the weakest link Goodbye!" bucking fit - no chance to stay on at all).
However same horse even defeated the best producer of young horses in the region who is some rider - even he said she could certainly buck. I also found out afterwards the person who broke her who is very experienced had had several interesting incidents despite swearing to me that the mare was as sound as a pound...
They sent her off to be put in foal because of her breeding (she had been bought in the meantime because of her pedigree - Sea Crest is the sire of Cruising, world's highest rated showjumping sire). She didn't take. The new owner then had her hunted a few times by a brave young man and she was fine (this was a year later).
I think in retrospect she had been bred and owned by someone who was weak in handling young stock and let her away with too much and she needed to mature in the head a bit more. She's a fine mare now and valuable. Still, I could never have trusted her after that so I'm glad I didn't buy her.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2003 - 11:28 am:
Boy do I ever agree with Dr. O on this one! Sounds like an off the track TB I once had. I remember him well every time I try to use my left shoulder. Like the "Little girl with the Curl", when he was good, he was great, but when he was bad....! I fox hunted him, jumped him in the ring, trail rode, in essence, virtually everything that required 100% good health. But every once in a while, he just decided he wanted me off! When I first got him he went to a professional trainer because he tossed me too many times. That trainer said he NEVER had a horse that was that good at bucking. (Requires tremendous athletic talent He suggested a rodeo company might pay well for him.
I stuck with that horse for years, never knowing when he would blow a gasket and put on a good show for everyone. Finally got a "second horse" for family and guests and realized that NO horse was worth what I was risking!!!
Like DrO. said, even if it is a physical problem, if it is that hard to diagnose, you probably won't be able to affect the outcome substantially. Trust me, you can love a more generous horse!
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2003 - 1:36 pm:
Well, the more I think about it, I think he has issues in his stifles and maybe hocks. Kind of makes sense with how things happened...fine for many hours of riding, with use the pain intensifies from the legs, up into the sacro-back area, gets to a point that he can't take the rider and bucks. The back pain was easy to find and thus we focused on it, now the back seems better, but if he still has joint issues-they could either be painful, or referring pain to his now sensitive back. Does that make sense??!! I have a vet scheduled to come up, also going to do thermograph pictures--Dr. O, an opinon on that? I'm not familiar but sounds like it could be helpful. My chiropractor/sports med dr. said it should probably work and should also show joint pain as long as the joint is close enough to the surface. Hopefully we'll at least get a feel if we have a behavior problem or physical pain...I'm not sure which one I'm hoping for.
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Friday, Jun 27, 2003 - 3:08 pm:
I have also heard of putting a horse on a course of bute for a couple of weeks to see if some "pain relief" would change the behavior.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 28, 2003 - 4:41 pm:
Michele if the horse does not appear lame, looking for lameness with tools whose results under such conditions would be of uncertain significance (like thermography), seems sort of lame to me.
DrO
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003 - 1:52 pm:
I couldn't agree with Dr. O more on this one. Sounds like you've got a behavioral problem to me. A horse that bucks like rodeo stock doesn't sound like a horse in pain to me. He's figured out how to get you off his back. There are far too many 'safe' horses out there to spend a lot of time and money on an 'unsafe' one. Sell him to someone who wants to deal with the problem, or better yet, find a good rodeo stock company to take him off your hands before you get hurt. Some horses just plain love to buck!
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 8, 2003 - 9:36 pm:
Well, we certainly got some interesting pictures back. Turns out the thermography showed excessive heat along the spine from the withers to about the last rib--from there to the croup he is actually cold. He also had a lot of heat in his right rear-both in the leg and up into in the rear. He is apparently, very stoic and doesn't show pain much. We realized that if we lunged him longer than we had been that he will eventually appear lame. The doc that took the pictures said the heat would indicate sore, injured muscles and the pattern seems consistent with a fall. (he is kept in a large corral with 3 other horses and they do get moving and play rough) She recommended shock wave therapy and anti-inflammatories along with massage and stretching. I'm wondering if there is anything else we should do? I can e-mail the pictures to anyone who would like to see them.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 9, 2003 - 6:50 am:
Pray that your horse gets tired of bucking you off?
Think for just a second about the scenerio: he is stoic to physical exam yet when ridden bucks the rider off. I have known horses that were so sore in their back that they moved slowly in the pasture yet did not buck their riders off. Horses I have seen with sore backs do not move soundly and play roughly with other horses. But since you have gone this far down this line, follow the good doctors advice and good luck with this, it is just your story is not consistant with sore backs I have seen.
DrO
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 11:16 am:
I have that same concern actually. Just because he has muscle soreness doesn't mean he doesn't also have a behavioral problem. I like to think that one caused the other since he was so nice for so long. I think we plan to treat his 'injury' the best we can,so that he doesn't have any physical excuses, and then place him with friends of friends-cowboy/bronc riding types, who are willing to ride the buck and hopefully they can get some work out of him on a ranch. DrO-have you had any experience-good or bad, with this shockwave therapy? There are a handful of vets that work with it around here(CO)-including Littleton Large Animal which is who we use. It just sounds extreme and I'm not sure it's the right solution.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 9:00 pm:
First lets be clear, he doesn't have documented muscle soreness: he has a reading on a thermograph that has been interpreted as abnormal. Muscle soreness is when a horse goes ouch when you press on the muscle, which your horse specifically does not do.
Shockwave seems to be beneficial for certain bone diseases and just recently been used experimentally for suspensory ligament disease problems and early results indicate further research is warranted for these diseases. I have not seen any reports on the use for muscle disease or more specificially in your case bucking horses with thermographic irregularities. This would be an experimental use.
DrO
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Member:
Micheleh
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003 - 2:46 pm:
FYI--update on the bucking bronc...We had a lameness exam done by Littleton Large Animal clinic here in the Denver area. The vet identified some muscle soreness in the back-but nothing severe. There was a low grade lameness in the left hock and in movement an occasional stifle issue which was present in both legs but worse on the left. When the stifle does lock and then release the horse reacts pretty traumatically--tripping, leg gives out etc... He suspects that if this happens when he is being ridden that it is magnified and he is experiencing pain and/or fear--thus the bucking. We're giving him estrogen shots for the next three weeks along with physical exercise to work on the muscling around the stifles--round pen work, cavaleti, trotting up hill, backing up etc... then we'll see how he is. The vet made a comment that the stifle will be prone to do this especially on a downhill slope which was the situation in the first two incidents of bucking. We'll see how things are in a few weeks...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 7:34 am:
That would be great if the issue turns out to be upward fixation of the patella for more see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Diseases of the Stifle » Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella.
DrO
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