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Discussion on Still kicking a year on
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Member:
Neezie
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 9, 2003 - 8:05 pm:
I bought an unhandled 2 yo irish sport horse filly a year ago. Over the years I have trained and schooled many horses but have been able to prevent this one from sudden lashing out seemingly without cause. What is unusual is that she is the friendliest horse who loves human and horse company, comes to call and has taken everything in her stride. She has been taken slowly and has been bitted, saddled, backed, leads beautifully, loaded into a trailer and now at three is being led quietly around the lanes for ten minutes or so with my daughter on her. She was also beautifully behaved for her first set of shoes albeit with the odd lash out.
However despite desensitisation and negative reinforcement as suggested by Dr O ( a sharp slap on the offending leg with a crop) she will kick for apparently no reason at all and wants to connect. She has an amazing ability to spin round and fire both barrels with no warning. My daughter and myself have both been injured by her.
She is also very vocal and squeals if she doesn't like something and this was actually helpful during her training as it enabled us to go back a step each time. The kicking is often accompanied by squeals too.
She was on her own from a foal to two years and I thought learning manners from my other horses would have helped but there is no change in her behaviour.
This one unpredictable problem is spoiling what would otherwise be a fine horse. I can honestly say I have never seen this horse in an aggressive posture no warning signs prior to kicking. It is as though she flips. I do feel however that I have gone as far as I can personally with her and in good concience could not sell her with this fault.
Any advice appreciated for one last try as she really is too dangerous at times and our trust in her has dissipated which of course means we are now in a state of negativity and this doesnt help in the handling.
Many thanks
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 2:19 am:
What's she by? (sire)
Imogen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 6:36 am:
Hello Neezie,
Horses like this are frightening to be around and I agree with your decision to rid yourself of this dangerous problem. I do have several questions:
1) Are the kicks in response to any particular stimulus or totally unpredictable?
2) How does she respond to the correction when applied in response to kicking?
3) Has correction made the problem better, worse, or no change?
DrO
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 11:29 am:
Neezie,
Spraying the legs, below the hocks, with water sometimes helps. Kicking at water isn't easy, mine only did it a few times and figured it out.
Now, if that doesn't work there is one other method I've seen; THIS IS A LAST RESORT!
Bride her up with a smooth ring snaffle, then run a rope through one ring, over the poll and attach to the other ring. Pass the rope over her back and attach to the rear leg below the fetlock, a hobble works well and prevents rope burns. The rope should come from the snaffle ring, cross over her back and attach to the opposite rear leg.
Now, she just has to kick. I would have her in a situation where a kick is likely before rigging her up. But, when she kicks she will be kicking herself in the mouth with the snaffle.
It isn't a pretty method and always use a big smooth snaffle cause she is likely to get pretty mad before she stops kicking, but it does work.
I would prefer to solve a problem in a more gentle way, but sometimes we have to be as firm as it takes. It is better than the alternative.
Alden
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 2:54 pm:
Hmmm . . . Alden . . . I have a big gelding who fear kicks . . . I don't trust him to NOT kick me while I try to rope his hind pastern . . . what then?
Holly
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Member:
Conniep
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 3:45 pm:
Is she is season? I have noticed that my otherwise calm mare will kick out at the other horses, but only when she is in season. She hasn't kicked at me, but I haven't put myself in a position to be kicked at.
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Member:
Jvinoly
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 6:56 pm:
We bought 2 orphan horses, both geldings. One is a Belgiun/Quarter horse, the other is quite a bit smaller, but also a quarter cross. Being very green to horse ownership, we were very impressed by how friendly they were. They were both trained to a certain extent, but had NO ground manners. The payoff came when the big guy tried to chase me out of the pasture. I don't want to discourage you, but we have been working on these 2 for nearly 3 years. They get a lot of lunging, halter work, and as much riding as we can manage. However,they still think they are on the same level as us, and need constant reminders of just who the horses are. They are still young, 5 and 6, but sometimes it would be nice to just jump on your horse and ride.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 10, 2003 - 11:49 pm:
Holly,
I would think using a water hose and spraying the legs should work well with your gelding. Unless of course water is the one thing he doesn't fear. 
Rather than a hobble just DrOp a loop around the pastern, then wrap the loose end a couple times around the rope over the back and watch out! It will take awhile for a soft cotton rope to burn.
But, I'm not very sympathetic to a kicker. Just me, I've taken a kick that shattered my right ulna and hit near enough to my heart the doctors very concerned. The horse was just 16 mo! The grey in my profile picture in fact, he hasn't kicked since. He didn't require the extreme method I mention above, the water hose worked well for him.
Alden
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Member:
Neezie
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Posted on Friday, Jul 11, 2003 - 7:05 pm:
Hi Everyone
Thank you for your kind responses.
Some further info
FOR DR O : 1) The kicking seems to have no pattern or stimulus, sometimes it could be when you go to pick up a hind leg or putting on a head collar or stroke her in a place she has been stroked a hundred times before and once she double barrelled my daughter when being led just span round on her no stimulus at all.
2) When corrected she looks shocked and stands tensely with her tail clamped right down. On one occasion in her box when I entered she decided to lash out and to my shame although it was pure self preservation instinct at the time I kicked her in the stomach as she was spinning her back end towards me. This was probably the only time so saying that she actually seemed to regard me with respect.
3) Correction has improved things slightly but it still remains a problem.
FOR IMOGEN: Her sire line is Captain Clover, Clover Hill Dam Line: Powerswood Purple. I know White Clovers can be a nightmare temperament wise but other Captain Clovers dont seem to have any temperament quirks.
FOR ALDEN: Thanks for the tips. I have thought of firing a hose at her over the stable door!! I have heard of this method before. Maybe I will try it if we ever get any warm days here. I really dont think I'm brave enough to try the hobbling method and would probably get kicked into orbit just getting it rigged up.
Her behaviour is neither better or worse when she is in season.
My other horses have put her at bottom of the pecking order and I think as a result of being kept on her own since a foal she retains some confusion as to where she stands with humans. Ive been spending these last few days hanging out with her on one side of the fence and me on the other. I have just been observing her and trying work her out.
Observations: When I am at the field she will not leave me even to go with the other horses. When I scratch her withers she starts grooming me back (ouch!)when I massage her poll area between the ears she DrOps her head and becomes very relaxed. When I touch her in a place she does not want to be touched (could be anywhere and often somewhere thats been touched many times before) she squeals.
So that is the latest, thank you all so much for your time.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 12, 2003 - 3:23 am:
Neezie - correct, I've personally seen some White Clovers with serious attitude problems but I have not heard anything funny regarding Captain Clovers which are sort of medium-popular (43 mares covered, 28 foals reg 2002, very few points reg for any offspring at all yet but the stallion is young, 12 yo).
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Keating
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 12, 2003 - 10:41 am:
Many of you may not know that one of Western Canada's finest young equestrians was killed instantly last month by a kick to the head from one of her own horses. She was a wonderful young woman who one day could have joined Canada's international jumping team.
Her family is incredibly strong and they do not blame the horse. But my view is that there are many horses out there and one whose behaviour endangers human life is simply not worth it.
Kathleen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 12, 2003 - 11:14 pm:
Amen Kathleen,
DrO
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 13, 2003 - 4:42 am:
A very similar fatal accident also happened last year in Ireland to an experienced young showjumper, Hazel O'Callaghan, as she was unloading a horse from a lorry.
Imogen
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