|
|
Discussion on Horse turns into fire breathing dragon at beach
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
imsmmt
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 11:30 pm:
I bought my Hanoverian, Maus, when he was three years old. Although we had some challenges in his youth and he has always had a GREAT BIG bang of a buck, any misbehavior on his part normally came in the working environment. Thanks to the exemplary good manners and, hence, good example, of my husband's paint/quarter horse, Austin, Maus learned to be a calm and well-behaved trail horse from the get go and he loves trail riding. Now, at the age of 9, he is also a much more serious work horse and will do arena work without any fuss and sometimes with true brilliance.
There is one circumstance, however, that turns him into a demon: that is, riding him on the beach. We have the immense good fortune of living within riding distance of two lovely beaches. Maus has been ridden on the beach since I've had him and he always loved it. When he was younger, we could walk, trot, canter or gallop as the footing allowed but over time he became more and more addicted to galloping. He was/is like a heroin addict. And I have to confess, I kind of shared his addiction: on a sunny morning at low tide with a beautiful smooth beach beckoning, it was hard to resist that incredible spectacular adrenalin feeling of letting a horse's AWESOME power fly loose underneath you. So, we galloped whenever the tides allowed....
I did always make him walk and/or trot the length of the beach at least once first, both to check the footing and to keep him from getting the idea that he could just start galloping the second he arrived there.
Last year, however, after a winter away from the beach, we had our first truly scary weird fire breathing dragon episode. We headed down to the beach with a friend on a fine spring day and when we got to the beach gate, Maus was already going through a transformation from mild-mannered horse into demon from the underworld. We got through the gate and I could barely remount. Once back in the saddle, it was all I could do to keep him from flying off so he started backing and whirling and coming up. He was just like an addict being kept from his fix, he didn't care that there were boulders around him that he was backing into, fencing, the other horse, whatever, he was blind to everything but this overwhelming gallop need and seemed to have no compunction about killing himself (or anyone else)in the process of trying to fulfill that need. I was with a relatively inexperienced rider (though fortunately on my husband's very reliable horse) and so we ended up leaving the beach because his behavior was so dangerous and I didn't want anyone getting hurt.
The next day, I went back with a different person on my husband's horse and Maus was JUST as maniacal when he got to the beach as he had been the day before. I ended up getting off and walking him down the length of the beach and could barely keep control of him from the ground! I did get back on eventually and we did walk up and down one more time and he finally settled down. I spent the rest of last summer NOT galloping when I went to the beach - but usually the only way I could keep control at the early part of the beach part of the ride was to immediately get into water up to his chest (he LOVES going in the water, loves the waves, and would swim across Buzzards Bay to Martha's Vineyard if given the opportunity.) Once walking along in the deep water he would really calm down and then after the hardcaore deep water walk the whole length of the beach, he could get out of the water and walk like a normal horse on his way back. This is the only beach riding we did all of last summer: no gallops, hardly any trots!
Today, we went down to the beach for the first time since last season and he became lunatic the second we hit the beach -- up until then, calm cool, well-behaved... And it was the same as last year, he was just wild and since I wouldn't let him gallop forward, he put his energy into reverse . The beach was really stony from the recent storms and there was trash washed up from the storms and his backing, semi-rearing, fire-breathing blind madness attack was really dangerous. I was afraid he would rear and slip on the stones. The friend I was with said he looked like a horse that was terrified... And it does have the feeling of a panic attack where nothing is getting through to his brain. Anyway, we left the beach almost immediately because the footing was unrideable and within a minute or two's distance from the beach, he went back to reasonable normalcy and within five minutes, totally normal.
Sorry for the lengthy post but want to get the circumstances clear. Anyway, I am at a loss as to what to do because riding on the beach is one of my favorite things in the world, but the fire breathing lunatic dragon thing is NOT AT ALL fun and it is horribly dangerous.
I am wondering whether I should try a mild sedative of some sort (I mean for him, mot me, though maybe I should take one too...) and taking him down to the beach as many days in a row as I can manage while he has some sort of sedative in his system so that I can delink this mania from the beach arrival? Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing? Has anyone tried any of those "natural" calming products like "ginseng powder" "stress prep" or "be calm"? Do they work to take the edge off? Does anything?
Any other ideas?????????????????????????
I should add as background -- my horses are turned out all day every day in either a one or two acre pasture - and they do gallop around in there, so it is not as though he is deprived of running around opportunities....
|
Member:
imogen
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:33 am:
For safety I would definitely suggest shorten your stirrups a bit especially if he is rearing. I think this is just familiarity with a pattern even though you have tried to break the pattern. The only other thing I can suggest is cut his food pretty drastically...
Have you ever tried lunging him on the beach first (you on the tideline, he goes partly on the sand, partly in the sea) or is there a risk he would just try to tow you down the beach on the lunge line?
Do you have any access to somewhere where the surf is lower? I also live by the sea and find some horses get wound up by the size of the surf some days and are fine if you go to a quiet cove with tiddly little waves instead.
Imogen
|
Member:
kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:03 am:
My calm and quiet horse does this went he goes to hunter paces now, exact problem as you. I now do tons of work in a small area when he starts this. If he still doesnt come back to me I get off and make him work his little butt off with ground work. I get back on and he is my angel again. He still goes back to that mode on occassion so I always have a long lead or lunge rope with me. Sometimes its safer than having them pop rear spin or buck which they can quickly learn to do. Holding them back makes them worse. You have to get there feet moving but where you want them not where he wants them.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:28 am:
Boy, if anyone has the answer, I'd like to hear it. A lot of us have these "only when..." problems!
Mine is jumping behind a group. My lovely hunter pace horse will jump smoothly and brilliantly--as long as she goes first. She will ride behind just fine on the flat, but the second she sees anyone else jump, WE have our own fire-breathing dragon!
Good luck at the beach and stay safe! I wish I could help you!
|
Member:
imsmmt
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:45 am:
I agree with both of you that lunging down there would be a good idea -- unfortunately, it is problematic because of the way the footing works out. He'd be on good footing on one half the circle and on bad footing for the other half -- that is, really deep sand or rocks. The deep sand would definitely slow him down! However, he has had some suspensory (sp?) issues in the past, so I'm afraid the deep footing would also lay him up!
I can get off and hand walk him but he nearly did me in the one time I tried that as noted in the original message -- I could, however, come prepared with a lead rope and perhaps side reins and that might make him more manageable... still, there is a limit to how much energy I can release with me walking.
Since neither of you commented on the sedative idea, does that mean you think it is a bad idea? It is normally not what I would resort to, but since the terrain limits my training options...
And Imogen, to answer your questions - he doesn't care whether there are waves or not on the beach. One beach we ride on has them, the other beach is quite protected and doesn't have them, he is equally maniacal in both cases -- although, as I said, getting deep into the water (if I can get that far without getting killed) does relax him - but it hasn't cured the problem.
Also, he receives very little grain throughout the summer - they are mostly grass fed (and in winter hay) so there is not much I can do to reduce feed.
|
Member:
ellab
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 9:56 am:
What about taking him a few times ponying him off your husbands horse?
The problem with sedative is that things may be no different when it wears off.
The other option to lunging is natural horsemanship on a 14 foot line with lots of changes of direction (this should be a small enough circle to be able to pick one kind of sand). This work (best done first at home) really encourages respect and is the best thing I have seen for settling a rattled head. If you and your husband ride down, get off and do some work on the 14 ft. line and then pony him for a bit before you get back on - it may help. Chris Lombard is a clinician here in Maine that works with the 14 ft. line and helps owners learn how. I don't know where you are located but I bet there is someone around to teach you if these are unfamiliar techniques.
You may have to wait a good long time before you can canter on the beach again though.
EllaB
|
Member:
terrilyn
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:20 am:
I just want to say that the look on your face SAYS IT ALL. I'd hate to have to give that up too!! Best to you as you try to work on this problem.
|
Member:
jojo15
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:32 am:
Backtracking from the first time could help. Somewhere in his experiences he learned this behavior, and you somehow positively reinforced it. and now expects to act that way when he gets there. This can be trained out. Its not like he was a night mare from fear of water.
i know its easier said than done. but this does help me in many issues with all my animals. its something i did that allowed this particular behavior to escalate...
My mare loved to run a particular hill at a park. Old owners literally would walk past this marker, and let the horse go, full gallop, and she went. When i bought her, she would go ballistic every single time we hit that marker. I had no idea why. And soon started to dread that place. Only until a friend mentioned what the old owners did. I then realized she was "trained" inadvertantly to think that when she hit that marker, WOOHOO time to run...
Problem was i'm a walker, a trotter, and just don't gallop like that.
it did take so many episodes. and it wasn't easy. But she needed to be trained that this is HOW IT IS NOW! We could spin and spin till she got all frothy. but we wouldn't go off until she realized i decided NOT HER if and when we would run. And it was a long while before i would even let her break into a trot up and over that hill. Luckily, i had the hill to my advantage. Hit the hill. and turn around. going back and forth.
and i bet to this day. If we hit that hill? she would start to do that jig. But, with a few slight reminders, her new way will kick in and we can enjoy it. I can feel her body want to do what she wants. but she doesnt...
You aren't going to change the horse back. what you have to do now is train him the way you expect. you're idea is great to get him in the water fast. and stay there. You might want to consider doing that. getting out. and leaving. Doing that a few times. So his beach experience is good. Your's is good. And you leave on a positive.
as you figured out already Exhaustion is your ally.
Sometimes a bit. scary. I never felt truly in danger from her though. So i'm not so sure my experience would help.
you might think about working him really hard at home. then go to the beach, too. drive there, get out. go home.
Or drive there get out. go straight to the water. go home...
but do not walk the surf. until you have it totally back under control.
I might even not bring another horse. get some help. and bring him to walk him. double lead lines. let him act stupid till he realizes. He ain't going to win this.
mix it up a bit. never doing the same thing. make him realize that when he smells the water, sees the surf, he can't kick into overdrive.
Lunging at the beach? if you don't normally lunge than i wouldn't. you are excarbating something already in his mind. Running around.
Bring a bag of hay with you to the beach area where he gets all crazy. go and don't even ride. See if that takes his mind off it. Or do the water thing.
i would go to the beach. and not even get on.
Go to the parking lot and get him out of the trailer and just groom a bit. hay a bit. and then go home.
making him realize that every episode is NOT in his control.
Drugs aren't going to solve the problem. might help in a fear based situation. but i don't see this as one...
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 1:51 pm:
I've no new suggestions to add, I just wanted to say that your picture makes me insanely jealous! When I was in high school (back in the dark ages) we used to ride our horses on the beach in Del Mar. What a feeling of freedom! All the exercise riders would pony the TB's from the track and swim them, too. I doubt a horse is allowed anywhere near the beach now. Your picture and big smile brought back fond memories! Good luck resolving your problem.
Beautiful horse, btw!
|
Member:
terrilyn
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:27 pm:
On a side note that might actually have some relevance to your horse's psyche...I recently interviewed John Crandell for an article. He's the endurance rider who won the "Triple Crown" of endurance races in 2006 (had never been done before in the same year)-- the Tevis Cup, the Old Dominion, and the AERC National Championship. Won the best condition awards as well. Anyway, he was simply one of the most fascinating horsemen I've ever been privileged to interview. During our discussion I asked him if horses seemed to enjoy the sport, and his answer supports your experience:
“Oh, amazingly. I mean, the biggest problem, particularly Americans, have is learning how immature horses enjoy it too much. How to have the horse do these things without getting overly exuberant is the problem...getting them so that they’re rateable and they understand what’s ahead of them. When they start an endurance race it triggers all sorts of instinctive reactions that have been programmed into them for eons.
Its quite an exciting sport for the horses and yet they have to learn to be mature enough and well trained and well schooled enough to stay calm and listen well because it’s very very important that our horses stay extremely efficient and relaxed, yet they’re doing something that they really, really love."
I like the "instinctive reactions that have been programmed into them for eons" part...
Sounds like your horse is just in love with that rush and that it ignites some instinct he's not able to ignore.
|
Member:
lhenning
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 2:53 pm:
My thoughts are similar to jojo. It is the place that causes him to become excited, due to exciting him in the past. It seems that keeping him calm is the goal here. I would ride him at a walk toward the beach, and knowing where he usually becomes excited, I would not go that far. Instead, turn him around BEFORE he gets crazy and go back down the trail. Keep repeating this over and over until he seems very complacent about it. The next time, try going a couple steps further but watch his demeanor carefully for any sign of tension. Keep him busy as you walk by circling him around your inside leg whenever his mind seems to wander off of you. It might take a long time, but eventually he will stay calm longer and longer. I would never gallop him out there again. I always get that feeling horses see galloping like running away from something frightening. It just gets them so wired and is hard to channel properly. I'd shoot for trotting one day and leave it there. Always work toward keeping him calm and relaxed. A happy horse is a happy rider.
Another thought I had, since you have experienced these "dragon" episodes, could you be tensing up as you approach the beach? Is he picking up your anxiety too? It is essential that you remain calm in the saddle.
Good luck,
Linda
|
Member:
gwen
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 3:13 pm:
Oh that makes sense, Terri! He just loves it so much! I wonder if it is temper tantrums about NOT being able to do it! Here is a CRAZY, thinking out loud thought. What if you let him go to get it out of his system?? I wonder if the more you DON'T let him do it, the more pissed off he gets, hence the continued tantrums despite change in program. THat is just an INITIAL thought from Terri's interview. I know when I am teaching, there are times/days when I have to say, "I don't blame them for being so fired up, let them be a kid!" hhmmmm. It sort of makes sense!
By the way, where in the cape are you? I live in Mansfield, MA and my parents just invested in a house in Pocasset.
|
Member:
kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 7:53 pm:
I think it basically comes down to want you want and expect from your horse. Dont let anyone say you can or cant do something unless you know in your gut its true. Always follow that. Do you want to eventually gallop down the beach again or are you happy to never do it again? if you don't have the time or expertise or its truly frightening to you you probably shouldn't gallop him on the beach again. But if you want to and you have lots of patience and time you can get him to listen to you.Its not a quick fix and you must feel confident. and by all means be safe.. There is a Clinton exercise that I do as well as the above that I posted. By the way ground work is not running around on a lunge line. First teach your horse to do the one rein stop and yield his hind at the same time. Clinton calls it the pasanger lesson. Start off walking dont steer let him go where where he wants keep your reins loose the minute he goes faster do the one rein stop then back him work him what ever. then go again always on a loose rein thats his reward for behaving and is a fear factor a lot of people have. Do it over and over and over, Then do it at a trot, then a canter. It could take 6 months. It should only be a few weeks but who cares if you want a good outcome time should not be important.. All horses are rewarded when you take the bit contact off and will quickly realize that its better than fighting you. You have to always get the thinking side of the brain working instead of the flight side. There are so many ways to do it but its consistency every time that will work. which ever method you choose. I believe any horse can do anything (unless there is a brain defect)Maybe I am stubben and dumb, but I have never had a horse eventually behave exactaly as I want. Consistancy is the key, But please please dont try and do this if you think that your horse is too wired for your safety. This is only another thing I do after I have got him thinking from the ground work. Get some advise from as many people as you can and try them all to see what works. I am not saying my way is right i am just saying what I do and what works for me.
By the way Erika I think I am doing the windy hollow pace in 2 weeks. I will be the one making my horse do tons of work before the pace. Are you going?
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:24 pm:
Katrina, the WHH pace is this Sunday, on Mother's Day! I can't find anyone who's going, so I guess not. Unless you want to meet up with me?
Maybe you're thinking of the Spring Valley Hounds pace June 3 in New Vernon?
Sorry to hijack your thread, MMT. Temporary...
|
Member:
imsmmt
|
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:45 pm:
Thank you everyone for all your great advice AND fun comments! This is such a great forum, what a lot of wonderful, smart people out there!
I think the overall consensus seems to be, skip the drugs and get back to work on some of the basics. In truth, part of the problem, I am certain, particularly after reading all your comments, is that I just don't have time to ride him as consistently as I used to. Between running a business, living in two different places, 2 horses, dogs, cows, traveling for business, etc. Well, work consistency is hit and miss. I try to ride Maus at least four times a week, weather permitting, sometimes manage six times, but often, just fit in twice...and then there are the business trips.... (and, no, there is really no convenient (and affordable) person around who could ride him in my absence - my horses live at home.) Furthermore, when I don't have a lot of time to ride in the spring/summer/fall, I am far more likely to play with the horses (read trail ride) than work. Our other horse, Austin, is a trail horse born and bred and does not need "work". Maus, on the other hand, is a sport horse and really does NEED work to keep his head in gear.
Terri & Gwen, you are so RIGHT on target, he just so LOVES the experience/adrenalin of the gallop that he just goes bonkers if he can't do it and I'm sure it triggers all kinds of instinctive euphoria. Letting him gallop, of course, does get it out of his system totally and makes him very happy, but then he wants to do it again the next day! The problem is, he can't gallop whenever he wants to for all the obvious reasons - first, that he ought to be controllable on principle, and then because the beach isn't always gallopable, sometimes the tide isn't right, sometimes there are people on the beach, sometimes rocks from the storms, etc. Everything has to be just SO for a good mad gallop.
SO, somehow, I am going to make more time (anyone have the formula for that??), try to work a little more regularly and trail ride a little less, I'll work him seriously for at least half an hour BEFORE we go out on the trails, I'll keep a lunge-line down at the beach gate for awhile so I can use it when it seems sensible to do so (or may look up the 14 ft. line work that Ella wrote about) - sometimes the footing and circumstance would allow it. And if he starts to misbehave as we near the beach, I will head back to the nearest spot with decent footing and open space and put him to work until he is tired and then try the beach again... That seems like the strategy, more or less.
I agree with everyone that I won't be able to gallop him on the beach for a goodly while until I get the situation under control again -- but, in the end, my goal would be to get to a point where we can gallop again (we may both be ancient by then, but still).
Linda, in my experience, most horses experience galloping (particularly on a beach, when the footing is right) as nirvana. So few people let their horses really gallop anywhere these days and I think it is kind of a shame. An "in control" gallop -- which from my perspective means one that you can stop and start when you want to, is a tonic for whatever ails you and can brighten up a barn sour horse (or person) in no time. Maus is the only horse I have ever had a problem with getting really maniacal about it -- but he has a bit of a maniacal streak in him anyway. When you say a happy horse is a happy rider, you are absolutely right and if you see how happy Maus is when he DOES get to gallop you'd appreciate how sad it would be if he could never gallop on the beach again.
(Gwen, we live in S.Dartmouth - near New Bedford, that's below the Cape, just above RI)
Thanks everyone!
|
Member:
imogen
|
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:31 am:
We are lucky enough to live near a beach which at low tide is a broad flat sandy spit of about half a mile into an estuary - that means you can gallop towards the sea knowing that short of the horse deciding to swim to France, you will be able to stop.
I agree that a serious gallop is great fun for you and the horse! However they do get very stupid about it because they know it's one of the few places they get a chance to do this. Getting on and off that beach can be quite interesting as it is very rocky and the horses are bonkers with excitement.
All the best
Imogen
|
Member:
bucky
|
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:34 pm:
Try not to go the same way twice or gallop him in the same place all the time. He has come to anticipate it. I have found this has really helped with my dragoness - she isn't sure what to expect. I try to change up my route every time. I also leave her tied up for a bit when we get home. This has helped with her wanting to run home - she knows she may have to stand for a while once we get there. No big reward of a bucket of oats
(okay - sometimes)
It is funny to me that he just all of the sudden changed. Did something at the beach change? I know when my horse turns into a demon it is usually because there is an animal (sheep particularly) around that I can't see that she senses and isn't used to. Even the smell of a den of foxes gets her acting up a bit. I don't know what kind of flora and fauna are in your area - just something to think about!
|
Member:
dawson
|
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:30 pm:
we also have access to beach riding, seems everyone including myself gets a little high off of a good snort of beach air, sun, wind, smells and sea spray.
We purchased a fifteen year old pinto belgian cross "plug" of a horse, the type you could throw a child on to babysit. Nothing, but nothing, even standing fairly close to cannons going off unnerved this boy. Nice spring day hubby wants to ride and he is a little nervious of the "Pep" he has seen in his twenty-five year old saddlebred. She walks, trots, extends and will canter a few feet, until she realizes she can get just as much from the beach by walking it.(By now means is she a challenge) OK, so we decide to take "old-slow-Joe" instead. Yep Fire breathing dragon! He seemed like he loved the thought of breaking into a good run in all that open space with others doing the same in all directions. WRONG- I miss read the situation. It was the sound of the waves that he thought even when thigh deep in the water were coming to get him. We made several attempts, he looked all hep'd up and pretty with Sooo much high steppin action he forgot he was a Belgian!
I stopped taking him, the enjoyment was all mine not his, he ran and acted out of shear terror, not the love to run or the beach. Yes, he eventually would slow down and he did look stunning in between after his gallop. We tried desensitizing him taking trips, parking further away in the parking lot, and just letting him graze and listen, no good. On the other hand my nutty 17.2 saddlebred who has real processing issues adjusted. The beach was torture for Old Joe. Which I never would have expected because one of his most favorite things is swimming in deep streams and lakes. When you mentioned your horse doing unsafe things and not listening because it seemed he wanted to gallop the length of the beach it struck a note for me. All Joe wanted to do was run too, but for all the wrong reasons. I stopped taking him he would do everything and anything else we asked well, I saw no reason to push him past his fear.
|
|
|
