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Discussion on Mikmar bits
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:32 pm:
I am interested in the mikmar bits. I think that they are humane because the flat mouth piece spreads the pressure over a larger area of the gums and tongue. My mare has never liked having a bit in her mouth but she also bucked off both my husband and I. My trainer and I have made a lot of progress in the last four and a half months but she still is heavier on the bit than I would like. My gelding has a very soft mouth, he can get behind it and I have to use a lot more leg than I do on her. I watched the dvd and they claim that they work on a lot of horses in jumping, english and western riding. I would love to hear about your experiences with these bits. Cynthia
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:12 pm:
Cynthia,
My horse loves this bit more than a snaffle. He for some reason doesnt spook he is so relaxed, I dont even use the reins I ride him with my legs. In a snaffle its the opposite. I only use it every now and again I use a kk logenge which he also loves. I use it a couple of times a month just for a refresher. I mainly dont use it all the time because of the funny looks I get from people who dont realize how much my horse loves it. It looks harsh. He plays with the roller as we stroll along in the woods. I usually ride on the buckle with this bit as he is soooooooooo relaxed. I love it or i should say my horse does. He doesnt even try to get heavy on the bit. One half halt and he is at my command. I guess you can tell I love it. I love the combination the most.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:50 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I am training in dressage and though I would not be able to show in the combination bit, I am hoping that the nose rope would get her to soften while taking some of the pressure off of her mouth. When I started her in a mild eggbutt snaffle years ago, the slightest pressure on the reins would cause her to pick up the bit and bite down on it. It DrOve me crazy so I tried a apple flavored happy bit. After she chewed it down to the cable I threw it away. I found a very unusual full cheek snaffle that is jointed on either side of a port that has a copper roller made of 5 penny shaped discs with v-shaped notches. It is hard for her to get it up between her teeth and gives her something to do but she still wants to lean on it. I have done the lateral flexion until she is very soft to the side but when I ask for vertical flexion she does not want to give. She is better but no where near what I want. The Mikmar has a jointed snaffle with roller and the flatness looks like it will be gentler and since it has a place for 2 sets of reins it can function very much like the snaffle bit we are using.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:52 pm:
Cynthia G.,
I know this is not what you were looking to hear, but i think it needs saying anyways.
"it is not what you put in their mouths, but what you put in their minds"
from what you describe your mare has some serious training issues. a horse that is so bothered that she chews a bit right down to the cable is one extremely bothered horse! if you are having to go to unusual bits just to get a somewhat better response than the problem is much deeper than the bit. while most definately problems can definately be structurally related, (and i assume you'ce checked for any physical problems (mouth, back, etc..)and yes, some young horses need bits that can keep them entertained, and some horses do just "like" some bits better than others, it really sounds like your problem is a whole lot deeper than that. you have just had too many bitting problems for it to be a straight "bitting" issue. i know you say you are working with a trainer but honestly this trainer doesnt sound as knowledgeable as what you need. it also sounds as if your trainer has you teaching your horse from front to back, as you describe using a nose rope to get her to soften, as well as doing lots of lateral flexion, but then her not giving when you ask for vertical flexion. since "vertical flexion"(oy that is an ugly phrase) comes from the back and not the front-the extent of which not everyone understands, even if they think they do.
i know, i'm probably sticking my nose into something where it doesnt belong, and i dont mean to offend, but i think there's something missing in the above equation
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:04 pm:
Cynthia,
If you do a search on "Mikmar" you should find some previous discussions about the bit...
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:39 pm:
Melissa, My mare has made tremendous progress since we restarted her in January. She is 19 yrs old and had not been ridden since we moved in August of 1998. If you go to "Dressage Suitability" and then to "New To Dressage" you can read more about what we have done. When I first put that eggbutt snaffle in her mouth at 3 yrs old it had some molasses on it. She only had it in for a few minutes but the next day she would not take it. After 20 minutes she had molasses all over her face! And there were no reins attached! I had her mom, an arab gelding and 2 pony's and none of them gave me any trouble about taking a bit. She never got any better about taking a bit until now but only because I give her a piece of carrot as a reward. She is not as mouthy and gives to the bit but she is not as soft as my arab gelding or her mother used to be. I imprinted her at birth ( I was the only one with her mom that night) and I taught her to lead, tie and pick up her feet without any problems. I used to take her for walks around the neighborhood and she was completely comfortable, never looked over her shoulder. I ground DrOve her and the first time I climbed on her, I got on and off both sides and she seemed completely relaxed. I had some trouble getting her to move but once she did I only walked her. I intended to take things slowly but every time I asked her to turn she would start biting on the bit. Her mother had a sensitive mouth but she never had a problem with me( she would toss her head with other people). On the fifth ride a small sound startled her and she bucked me off. After that my husband let me send her to a trainer for a month. The rest of the story in "New to Dressage".
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:40 pm:
Cynthia,
Melissa has an excellent point. I did not even think to mention that. Your horse should give vertically in the mildest of bits first. Just like they train western in snaffles and when they are excellent in that only then do you go to a stronger or should I say more refined bit. Have you tried the lozenge Korsteel makes one that is very similar to the KK lozenge. Its much milder than a snaffle. For my horse the snaffle hurts(low palate) Water runs out of his nose when he drinks. He opens his mouth in pain. Allot of Arabs do better in 3 piece bits because of small mouths. I would never be able to put a thick egg but in his mouth. And never ever a rubber bit he wouldn't be able to close his mouth.  Maybe you should look at a korsteel lozenge bit first. My horse does love the mikmar because its so thin and flat, but I don't use it to teach flex ion. I should have pointed that out. The Korsteel is cheap around $20.00 and my horse loves it. I had similar problems with my horse till I found a bit that fits his mouth the best.
Something to think about.\
Katrina
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:47 pm:
Hi Dawn, yes I found it after I entered the new question. It was funny because some of it was in the literature that I picked up at the World Cup. And how are you doing? Charlie is not much for e-mailing but I will remind him about Mike. I really enjoyed meeting you there. Cynthia
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:11 pm:
Cynthia you must have been posting at the same time. Ok so now it does sound like a bit issue. Like I said egg butts can be harsh in a small mouth. Horses with low palates hate 2 piece bits. Does your horse have a small mouth or low palate ? Have you ever tried a thiner bit.? I think its a bit pain issue just by what you have said. I know people say the thiner the harsher but it all depends on how it fits your horses mouth. In your case its possible that its the bit especially if she did not like it with molasses?
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:12 pm:
Yes Katrina, I have looked at the korsteel lozenge, but mainly for showing in because they don't allow the mikmar or the bit I use now. I haven't used the eggbutt since she was about 4 when I switched to the fullcheek bit with the copper roller. It is a three piece bit. I can't show in this bit either. When she gives to this bit she moves beautifully and picks up her leads correctly. When she leans on it she falls apart. The mikmar bit claims to be "a kinder, clearer way to communicate with your horse". I also considered the Dr. Cook bitless bridle but was told that it would not be a good idea given her past history of bucking. I want to hold her hand so to speak not pull her around. I had that with her mom and I still get it from our arab gelding. Cynthia
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:38 pm:
One other point that you might try before getting the mikmar (don't get me wrong my horse loves it)
Have you tried lunging in side reins to see if she is able to give vertically or to teach her with out anyone riding her. Maybe this would also help her use the correct back muscles to get her to hold herself properly. I lunge this way to help my horse round his back and bring his hind under and reach for the bit. It makes him stronger so he is able to hold himself in the correct frame with out bit much bit contact. If you have done this and she gives great in side reins then I would try the mikmar. I don't recommend using every day. After using it a few days go back to your regular bit and you should see a much softer horse and eventually you wont even need it. The mikmar snaffle etc I have tried but don't like as much because they are heavier. The combination is the lightest bit I have ever held other than a hollow bit. Good luck. PS The bitless is not good for bucking. I learned the hard way even though for a non bucking horse its one of the best inventions out there.
Katrina
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:43 pm:
Katrina I am posting at 11:30 am pacific time. The mikmar has an inch wide flat mouth piece which would be great on a horse with a shallow palate. If you think about it a round bit has a bearing surface of only about a 1/4 inch, which makes it more harsh. Look at the tire on a car, it is about 15 to 20 inches across but the footprint is only 8 or 9 inches wide. If you look at the straps on a seat belt are they flat or round? Which would be more likely to hurt you in a hard stop? Cynthia
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:50 pm:
Katrina, The bit may be heavier but isn't the bridle holding it on his head? And wouldn't that make him hold his head more vertically? Cynthia
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 3:06 pm:
Cynthia I totally agree I believe it to be a very very mild bit. At least my horse says it is.
Not only that Its crueler to me to see riders with heavy hands in a snaffle than to see a horse soft in a bit people think is harsh. Just wanted to give other sugestions that might be cheaper or might help you solve it without spending the money. But yes yes yes I think its very gentle. For some reason my horse also likes the round lozenge dont ask me why the rest of the bit is very thin. He doesnt like other 3 piece bits. My horse is very vocal not quiet the right word but expresses himself very well. If he opens his mouth at all I will not use that bit and I am not going to tie his mouth shut with a DrOpped noseband. He has never opened his mouth or shown displeasure with either bit. He is extremily relaxed. If I had to give one up I would probably give up the lozenge. Though I hate the dirty looks I get from people when I ride in it from those who dont like the mikmar. I say go for it, I'll never sell mine.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 3:11 pm:
I bought the D ring Mikmar because I could not take the dirty looks from the dressage people. It did not make him hold his head better than the combination. In fact he liked the lighter combination bit better, but thats just my horse's preference not mine I would rather he liked the D ring, but he is the one wearing it. My horses oppinion.
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Member:
kstud
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:42 pm:
I have a Mikmar and like it too BUT there is a potential serious problem with it and that is why it has lost popularity with showjjumpers and eventers here. If you have to take a pull or a hold the flat mouthpiece can be pulled into an upright position and can do an awful lot of damage. There has been some very severe injuries with it. Just be warned, I find it a lovely bit to ride in occasionally but I would not use it now to jump a horse that pulls or on a spooky horse in a strange situation.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:47 pm:
Hi Katrina, I don't think a lot of people understand the concept of a round verses flat bearing surface, and the nose pressure could be made softer by using a wider nose band. They probably see a large bit and assume that means it is harsh. If that bit does what I think it could it would not be expensive, I am spending $400.00 a month in training and we could progress much better if she happily accepts contact.People often use what is commonplace because they don't question whether the principal is sound. Like feeding horses out of hay racks. When I first set up my own place, I bought those metal feeders that hang on the fence. Then I watched my horses pull the hay out and dump it on the ground. In the winter lots of it was wasted in the mud. I now feed them out of a plastic feeder that sits low and allows them to eat with their head in a natural position. My Father and I used to brainstorm as a matter of fun when I would hang around him in the garage while he worked on our cars. So I still tend to analyse anything I see that is new or not working the way I think it should. My youngest son seems to take after me, he earned a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and now works in that field. When I first saw the mikmar bits I immediately saw how the flat bit would be nicer on the bars of the horses mouth. I think all bit makers should look at that concept. Cynthia
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:58 pm:
Thanks Catherine, That is a good point and I will want to find out more about that. I will ask a lot of questions of the mikmar people as well as my trainer and vet. The last thing I want is to hurt my horse. Cynthia
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:13 pm:
Hi Cynthia!
It's too bad we didn't talk about this in Las Vegas. We didn't spend enough time together.
I used the Mikmar short shank for a short while. I found that it balanced my horse and kept him from leaning on the bit. It allowed me to use my legs as opposed to hands. I used it for a short time and then went to a mild french snaffle. I bought a D-ring snaffle and didn't like it as much - but I didn't use it as much as the short-shank either.
Mike just mentioned to me yesterday that he is still looking for that photo of Charlie, him, and a buddy of theirs. I'll email it to you as soon as he finds it.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:30 pm:
Hi Cynthia,
I agree with you totally. I don't Analise like you do but i am extremely sensitive to my horse he tells me the minute something hurts he is sooo sensitive for which I am glad. I think it would be great if they made it without the port and with a nice thick nose-band, Now that would be a perfect bit and even heavy hands would not cause as much damage as Catherine pointed out. I now ride more western with an English saddle as I have retrained him Clinton Anderson ways but a little more gentle. I still do dressage exercises, You only need maybe 1/4 to 1/2 ounce of contact with this bit. I get the same response with the lozenge but the big difference I see between the 2 bits is that my horse is soooooooooo calm and relaxed with the mikmar he doesn't spook Its really weird like he feels extra safe. I cant explain it. I now ride with mostly no contact as he collects with a half halt and stays that way. I am one who will never pull The thought of pulling freaks me out. But because of peoples reactions and non knowledge I stick to the lozenge, However I don't think the mikmar site should say its good for beginners that is one thing I totally disagree with. Its extremely gentle with soft feeling hands, but with a beginner now thats scary. Wish they would change that.
I have never used the curb part my horse is so soft he doesn't need a curb to flex. I use 2 reins one for the regular mildest setting and one for the nose rope attachment. I grew up with a double bridle so that works for me, My horse is way too sensitive for a curb. I once tried a curb on him and he hated it. Never again, I wish more people would learn rather than judge something they know nothing about. Me I am a wimp cant take the bad looks. As I horse person I think its my responsibility to keep on learning and never ever say only one way is right or wrong. Learn learn to learn. I am babbling on.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:41 pm:
One thing I forgot say this is not a good bit to hold a horse in a frame. Some dressage instructors insist on teaching people to hold their horse in a frame more the german style of dressage. I like the style that the horses stay in frame with out the help of the bit. I am not sure what style your trainer uses. Something else to think about.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 7:58 pm:
Hi Dawn, I wish that we had spent more time together also! I would like to know more about how you used the short shank bit, did you use 2 reins? Was it very hard to learn to do it? Did your horse seem comfortable with it? It looks like it works like a double bridle, with a snaffle on top. She responds well to leg cues, if we could focus on the seat and legs it would be great. I could focus on learning the tests and getting circles round etc. Cynthia
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:24 am:
Hi Cynthia,
I used single reins with the short shank. It took me a couple rides before my horse figured it out. I learned real fast not to touch his face. I just kept my hands really still when he tried to lean on the bit and he taught himself not to pull. I hardly used the reins at all and concentrated on my legs to get him to reach under himself and round his back. I think he liked it because he was nice and relaxed - not tense at all like he can get. The end result of this was a very nice frame and he held his head beautifully.
With the short-shank you can choose where to put the reins - either at the bit or at the end of the shank. It also has a curb which I think helped me. I put the reins at the end of the shank.
I used the bit intermittently. I experimented to see what worked best and eventually I didn't have to use it. I definitely saw lasting results. A couple years later he started being unbalanced again so I used it for a couple of rides and he was fine again. I think the best thing it did for me was help with balance, stopped him from using the bit for balance, and got him up off his forehand. He is an ex-racehorse so he had those tendencies.
My recommendation would be to start really slow. Start with some walking and then trotting and see how it goes. Just remember if she hits the bit and goes "what the heck is that?!!!" just throw your reins at her. Don't touch her face. Eventually, you will be able to just give a little rather than the the extreme in the beginning.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Dawn
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 6:10 pm:
Thanks Dawn, That helps a lot, It sounds like you got exactly what I am trying to accomplish with her. I spend so much time on her head that I can't focus nearly as much on my legs and form. On Monday Lyn had me ride our arab gelding, while he rode her, so that we could spend more time on my form. My arab has a real soft mouth but he is so used to being ridden trail on a loose rein that I had to really push with my legs or he wanted to stop. Any way I will talk to Lyn to see what he thinks. I really like the way he teaches, very positive, upbeat and he is that way with her as well. Cynthia
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