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Discussion on Long and low or drive the behind???
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 5:07 pm:
My horse has unfortunately not been worked consistently for the last 4 months due to the revamping I have done on my property...so now his neck is upside down.
I've had 5 different trainers tell me two different things to fix his neck. Two said ride him long and low and let him use his back; but three said to drive him into the bit and ask him to use his hindquarters. Which is correct?? I'm confused.
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 23, 2003 - 5:21 pm:
Hi,
I am not a trainer, but I have w/in the last few months brought my geldings neck from lean and lanky to thick and studdish looking. everyone has been telling me that he filled out beautifully. What I was told to do was collect him up and trot him for distances which I did. I just had to give him a kiss or two and ease back on his reins. he automatically tucked in his head and pranced for me.
Thanks!
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Member:
Willie
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 12:00 am:
Hi Aileen,
Both recommendations are correct, but the first should be long and low. First you should STRETCH the topline (long and low) and generate the energy from behind. This will strengthen his back. Then ask him to gather himself into more contact and a slightly shorter frame to engage the hindquarters. Push the hindquarters forward into the bit.
Think of the building blocks of classical dressage, which apply to all riding: rhythm, relaxation (read: stretching) and forwardness come before contact, straightness and --eventually -- collection.
Ask for lateral flexion before longitudinal -- in other words, use lots of circles and half-circles to bend first one side of his body and then the other. Circles and suppling exercises done correctly -- with rhythm, energy and flexion -- will strengthen his hind legs and his back, allowing him to then carry himself so he won't have to use his neck to balance himself.
That upside-down neck is the result of a weak back and hind legs; horses that balance themselves through the neck instead of the back will get that bulge at the bottom of the neck instead of muscle at the top, creating the upside-down aspect.
Good luck!
Sarah
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 10:27 am:
Dominique...you are lucky it is so easy for you (;) Great job!!
Thanks Sarah! Makes sense for my guy. He doesn't really like to go "forward" I have to push him into it - hence the weak hindend and back (he does have arthritis in his hocks)
So I should do serpentines and circles with my inside leg asking for the bend with a long rein and active leg? Then I should take up the reins and perhaps increase my leg activity to keep him forward?
He's been so good at his turns, but now I realize why...he's been using his neck for balance 
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 10:52 am:
Hi Aileen,
Like I mentioned about, I am far from a trainer and wish I knew how to do these things correctly myself and I am sure I make many mistakes!!
Arthritis in hocks would concern me only because I would think he was using his neck to move away from pain. Is he on anything for pain?
Maybe Sarah can tell us the appropriate way to do circles?? When running barrels, I have always come to the first barrel and tapped with my inside leg {rt leg when turning right} and if needed, I slide my left leg back a bit to keep his rear in check.
I have heard too that when getting back in shape lope big circles down to small and out again on a slight slope...this may bother your horses hocks even more. then change direction. I do this on a very loose rein for extended trotting, then collect him up.
Seems like he is using his neck in place of rear for sure!!
Thanks I learn a lot from this site.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 11:10 am:
Hi Dominique...good point in he's using his neck to get away from any pain...however, the arthritis is very mild. He's been on Cosequin since January and I can't remember that last time he's taken a lame step.
That being said, however, he does have a great memory and maybe I have to teach him that using his hind end won't hurt him anymore??? Maybe that's why it takes him so long to warm up and engage? He's making sure it doesn't hurt?
Who knows. Geez I wish he could talk
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 9:50 pm:
hi Aileen
Correct long and low encourages a horse to use his hindquarters. it also encourages the horse to free up in his back/topline. you're still pushing the horse forward, you're just pushing him forward into a longer and lower "frame". as you shorten the reins to ask for me collection, the topline stays the same length, but the horse brings his hindquarters more underneath him, and lifts the front end up...
to ask the horse for a more collected frame without first freeing up his back/topline will make him want to tighten his back and shorten his neck-it looks like collection but it isnt..
as far as the hocks, dont worry too much.. i run a classical dressage training facility-we get a lot of rehabs/poorly trained horses in here.. many/most with hock problems.. when the back gets freed up it encourages softness and elasticity, which partially "negates" the hock problems.. they're stil there of course, but when the horse can free up and swing in his back, he can use more of his body as a shock absorber and not be so tense, so the hocks take less abuse... classically trained horse tend to not have much or as severe a hock problems as non classically trained horses-usually because classically trained horses are freer in their back...(tho obviously you still need to take care of his hocks!).. and for what you are asking the horse should fully be able to do it, even wth more severe arthritis
it's probably not his memory that makes him take so long to warm up and engage, but a locked back..
good luck
missy
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 24, 2003 - 10:40 pm:
Muscles only contract, they don't extend. Think crunches, not backbends when "turning your horse over". Get the legs under, head position comes after that. Your goal is to shift weight to the hindquarters. Sore hocks will prevent this--perhaps a little bute for the sore joints--joint supplements don't necessarily address pain. Have you tried changes in gait--trot to walk transitions, or turns on the hindquarters to help your horse understand the shift in weight you are looking for? Takes time, keep at it, good luck!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 10:05 am:
Thanks Missy! I lunged him last night in side reins with the inside rein one ring shorter. He did great...especially when he spooked and got REALLY under himself - his back looked loose as far as I could see his bum swinging...is that right? Or should I negate the side reins for awhile? He did actually keep his head UP UP UP for awhile then settled down and really used himself.
Thnanks Erika! He is SO not lame  and hasn't been since December/January of this year...and was never lame before that. We did a LOT of transitions last night...walk, forward walk, trot, forward trot, canter, forward canter...when I cue him with *forward* he actually gives it to me, which is great for him. At the end of the session he was looking fabulous.
Thanks so much for the input!!
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 10:15 am:
Hi all,
Well the horse that I was able to build the neck on was taken to a trainer just this past Sunday, only 4 days there. I wanted him just to work with my horse as I always noticed a major issue when trying to only canter him. He is a speed demon and I bought him to play around in some barrel races and trail ride. Very broke and goes anywhere and ponies anyone, but trainer suggested what his prob might be, and after the first 4 days which, as trainer stated, isn't much time, he mentioned that he works off all front end and needs to use his rear more. This has added to his front end being somewhat bigger than his rear.
My prob was that the horse would walk and trot lovely and stop. However to try to get him to canter and not be a major rocket through the field was a feat. Once he picked up speed in his canter I would sit back and ease back on his reins with the "Easy boy: to him. Then came the head shaking, rocking horse motion, semi rearing! Gave me a headache just to bouce and stay on him.
So this is why he went to the trainer, as I cannot ride him every day, but a few times a week. And figured if I was doing something wrong the trainer could work with both of us.
Trainer said he took the long shank snaffle out and is only using a simple O ring snaffle. Said he is out of shape so they are easily bringing him back in shape to help him try to enjoy what he needs to learn differently and make it easier on him to work {in shape vs. fatso} Trainer said he can get him to use his rear at a walk and trot, but is still going to work slowly to see if he is willing to learn to use his rear at a canter and eventually gallop.
We both know that there is going to be a time where we have to say, hey he is not getting it, but trainer wants to slowly work with him and see if the horse is willing to learn this.
We have no past history{the last 7 years) on this boy. As a 3 year old he was loping the pattern. He was passed on and on and I wanted to give him a home.
The only downside is that he is an 11 yo and not a 4 yo which would probably pick up easier on this training and learn the correct way.
My concern is that he is not going to learn this and I will never have him at a canter in the field, which I do want to enjoy as well as get him to work correctly around a set of cans.
Has anyone experienced this?
Trainer said it is very simple queues to teach him with everyday riding, but the horse has to be willing to learn.
Any advice, suggestions, input is appreciated.
Thanks!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 10:30 am:
Hi Dominique!
You know that I don't know much at all...but could it be that because he's been a barrel racer he doesn't know HOW to go slow? Why do you say he may not be willing to learn?
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 10:42 am:
Dominique-dont worry about your horses age being a factor... if your trainer can show him how to free up and relax his back, he will want to do it.. we've worked with horses much older than this and always with success... if his problem is physical-relax back and use hind end better, then he will get better with correct training.. if his problem is mental-i.e. the canter is too much pressure and he feels the need to explode, then consider some "natural horsemanship" to develop the relationship necessary to help him to mentally relax in more pressure situations..
aileen- using side reins on the lunge is a good way to help him get started.. yes, you should see the back-just behind the saddle start to relax and "jiggle" and the hindquarters start to swing.. when he really uses his topline you'll see a muscle line in the middle of his neck-that's when he's stretching his topline and totally relaxing his underneck.. its a good thing!...
when horses are just learning to relax and use their back we dont do many transitions or even circles... very large circles maybe, and only what transitions are necessary... otherwise he'll tense up when he's forced to use his hind end when his back isnt sufficiently relaxed for it.. transitions especially encourage this... yes, they are great for muscling up, but if the horse doesnt come up in his back during the transition, then you've only got half of what he can do,if that... you'll also find that he ends up stressing his back and hind leg joints more because he forces himself thru the transition, rather than "springing" thru it...
good luck!
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 10:53 am:
Melissa,
Thank you so MUCH! I really thought I would have a hard time with this. And YES the trainer did mention Natural Horsemanship with him. I told the trainer I want him to work with me as well to help him understand better. I think it may be wise for me to possibly give him another month there as 30 days is nothing when he is just starting out.
Aileen - whomever had this horse before me ran him like a bat outta hell. It took almost a month for me to just get him to be calm at his walk and trot. I would purposely hold him at the back of the trail line and he would jig, jig, jig! I would laugh and all, because the jig was basically a parade style prancing which was comfortable and soft and of course he tucked that head all the way under! And as a kid of 14-17 running barrels at local shows the speed and jigging was never a problem, but as an adult of 39! I begin to hurt here and there. I also feel I can't keep my balance as well and constantly work on keeping my heels down and shoulders in line etc...there are times now when a quick stop shitft my hand right to that cantle to ease a bounce! Amazing how age plays a major role in this stuff.
I look back and can't understand how my horses as a child never were lame etc..., because I will be the first to admit I did it all as crazy as could be. Nowadays, I want them to enjoy pasture and give me a nice ride with the speed when requested. I have no energy to constantly fight!
Is there any books/videos out there that I can use to understand/learn natural horsemanship much better?
I feel as if a load is off my chest!
Thanks again to both of you.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 11:00 am:
Thank you Melissa!
I didn't start asking for transitions until he was warmed up and swinging. That's ok, right?
Also, I was told transitions help them get under themselves more
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 11:13 am:
Dominique,
There are so many natural horsemanship books and videos you can spend years getting through it all! But fortunately, the basic theories are the same, so it comes to finding a trainer who makes the most sense to you.
You can start on line with Pat Parelli, Mark Rashid, Clinton Anderson, John Lyons -- they all have Web sites. My tack store has all their videos (and more!) for free lend, but so does the library. Much of NH is changing the human's approach to the horse, and the transformation in the horse can truly be amazing.
The NH path can seem slow at first but the rewards are worth it. Enjoy the journey,
Jerre
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 11:13 am:
Dominique,
I love the jigging too - it is comfy and they look so proud doing it. But I do agree with the age factor, I'm 39 as well (;0
Mark Rashid is AWESOME! I've learned so much from his books...go to Amazon.com and search Mark Rashid...Have fun!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 1:07 pm:
Aileen-we dont do any more transitions than absolutely necessary until the horse is completely freed up in his back/topline... this may mean weeks or months... what is found in a classically trained horse is that when he's using himself correctly, transitions, ring figures and lateral work come very very easy... a horse that is still tight in his back you will need to "work" for him to stay round and balanced thru those things.. my 12 hand draft type haflinger pony that is used for beginner lessons can do very nice transitions and leg yields when i ride him and get him freed up... and as far as muscling him up goes, let it come naturally... it will come when it comes.. if you rush it, you create tension... teach him to relax and use himself properly, and you will get all that you want... it may seem to take longer, but you get there with less fuss..
Dominique- i do "real horsemanship", which has its roots in natural horsemanship but centers more on using the horse's natural reflexes and getting deep into a horse's CNS and symp/parasymp. nervous system... very fascinating.. this guy doesnt have any books or videos out because every horse is different... eventually each horse has to get thru the same stuff (and each human has to learn how to speak horse!), but sometimes the path to get thru each individual's horse is very different... if i worked my arab (rescue horse, severe emotional issues) the way we've started several other horses, i would have made his emotional issues worse... your horse may NOT have those kind of issues, but sometimes they're hidden deep... so while i'm not saying dont check out the books and videos, try to get in touch with someone who really knows what they're doing and get some real hands on help... let your horse be the individual he is...
that said, i prefer to put all horses thru a course of the horsemanship training before we do under saddle work.. it makes the relationship that much better and lighter..
aileen-do you have anyone in your area who does correct classical dressage?(think klimke, vonneuman cosell, zettle).. "learning by email" is certainly not the best way to go!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 25, 2003 - 1:33 pm:
My old trainer used to clinic with Charles DeKunfy (sp?) - she advocates getting him to work from behind - she's trained him since I got him 60 days a year for four years. She went amateur so she could show her WB. So I've been on the search for other trainers. I must admit I've come across some GOOD ones...one in particular, but it's a bit confusing changing trainers....it seems some have a different way of looking at training. I've inquired here to determine if there's ONE way to go about it...and obviously there's not ...so confusing for me...but I'm learning!!
He was going very nicely under her, she got him doing third level movements, aside from the extended trot. I am now getting more extension from him as he relearns how to use his hind end since the formation of the slight arthritis.
Thanks!
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