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Discussion on Kicking in reaction to correction
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 12:31 pm:
I guess this post is to seek reassurance that I don't have a problem horse....Last weekend we purchased a 3-yo paint gelding who seems sweet, willing, and people oriented. He has been well cared for and ridden occasionally by a youngster (no resistance to that), but seems to have feeding anxiety...one of those who can't get his food fast enough, paws vigorously, than inhales it like an industrial vacuum cleaner...Yesterday we had an incident in which a teen who boards with me was carrying grain through the new horse's paddock on the way to feed her horse. He crowded her by getting close to her from behind and she knocked him in the head (definitely wrong move on her part). At this treatment, he whirled and kicked out at her with hind legs. Prior to this, I had not observed any aggression from this horse. He stood for the farrier the other day with no halter...just an arm around his neck! I have read the article on aggression and am wondering about the degree of problem we may have...in this case, he WAS provoked and most likely had no idea why he was being punished. He has had little ground handling and has not learned to respect space. I am also very disappointed in the girl who bonked him on the head...guess I just need to hear how normal this is and maybe some suggestions from similar experiences...he does not strike me as an aggressive animal, but I am cautious around him at feeding time. My mare and gelding who are extremely bonded will have nothing to do with him and I cannot put them together....guess the poor guy is under lots of stress. I think I would have kicked her too....
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 12:47 pm:
Terri
This sounds like a great horse to me from your description. This morning at feeding time my 5 month old pushed at me to get to the feed bucket. He had never been this agressive at feeding time before, a little anxious maybe. I scolded him and pushed him back a little. At that point he turned his back to me but didnt offer to kick. I scolded him again. I dont feel he is an agressive horse. He normally respects my space. Im just going to add breakfast manners to the list of things we need to work on.
Colleen
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 12:55 pm:
while you certainly cant label a horse bad or good based on one "wrong" move, it's obvious he does have a food issue-the pawing, etc...
the move on the part of the girl was not entirely wrong... while equine etiquette is intention/nontouch/then touch, and she obviously just jumped into touch, he should not have been crowding her at all...nor should he turn and kick up both heels just because she bonked him in the head.. htat's pretty overreactive on his part...
is he overstressed because of hte new environment-defiantely.. should she have first made a motion towards him with her hand and body language before touching him-absolutely, but should he have turned around and fired both barrels at her-no...
this may only be a food related issue, and as long as you're careful it may come to naught, but he's young enough that you could more easily teach him some patience and basic respect for the "human space"...
my horses wait at least 10 ft away when i am setting down food or grain...it doesnt matter how hungry they are or what's going on..nor will they kick up their heels just because i give them a "spanking"-even if i overreact and breach etiquette...and they dont get to eat till i walk away...and if i dont walk away-they dont eat...(until i do..)..sound a little harsh? sure, but real safe for me...
so i guess i'm saying no, he's not bad, but keep an eye on that food aggression..
just my .02$ worth
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 1:10 pm:
Melissa
I would be interested in hearing how you got them to wait till you walk away to eat. My dogs will not eat if i am standing near or looking at them. My horses like to jump in there as soon as the feed is in the dish. I would like to work on getting them to wait before approaching their feed and would appriciate any tips you have.
Colleen
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 1:23 pm:
Yes, I'd like to know too! My other two are impatient, but do not make it uncomfortable for me to feed them...I have never felt threatened. And I also know that neither of them would react with a kick if disciplined. And yes, the young lady was correct to try and do something about his behavior, but I think her reaction was more vicious than necessary. I don't believe hitting a horse in the head with your fist is acceptable...at least not for the level of incorrect behavior he was exhibiting at the time, and I don't think that's a good area of anatomy to go after--But it doesn't excuse his reaction....Bottom line is that there is a food problem as Melissa says and to watch it...I do think his age will work in our favor as far as changing behavior. It helps so much to get input and suggestions!
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 1:35 pm:
Hi there,
I would like to know how to do this as well.
I have a 20 month old who is super lovey, but when he eats, he also paws and has done this since I have owned him.
Is this behavior allowed or should I stop it. It is only when he is digging in his bucket.
Once he is done eating, he searches everyone elses bucket and then gets a swift kick if he doesn't lay off.
He has barrelled by me in the stall doorway and I need to know what manners and how to teach him this effectively w/out him fearing me.
So any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003 - 5:26 pm:
Teri I do not necessarily agree with your assesment that your horse was provoked. The details are light but if your horse was crowding to the point of physical pushing: he was doing the provoking. I also agree one bad move does not make for a bad actor but it definately is a warning to be careful and prepared.
DrO
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 12:58 am:
well, without getting into a long detailed explanation, it all boils down to respect-and what respect really is in an equine mind.. remember he's a herd animal-not a pack animal like humans or dogs, so his understanding of herd and spatial relationships is vastly different to our own...in a herd the leader gets to eat whatever he wants whereever he wants, and all subordinates get whatever he doesnt want... so if you allow your horse to eat while he's in your space, you are no longer the leader, he is..(yes, this is a very simplistic explanation-the simple act of letting a horse eat while in your space does not totally imply that he's a leader, but it certainly takes away a huge amount of credibility on the human's part to be a leader in the horse's eye!!)
and eventually some horses get pushy.. i disagree with Dr.O in the detail of him doing physical pushing-as soon as he gets within your personal space-which is about a 10 ft bubble-he's pushing...and he should never come into that space unless invited...and if i have food i never invite a horse into that space...
so how do i get my horses to wait and be patient- once i had true equine general respect it involved my being willing and ready to spend however long it took to make my horses stay away from the food till i was "done" with it (which i demonstrated by moving far away).. in the beginning this is usually accomplished by a lunge whip and lots of energy and stamina on my part.. the horse comes in-i chase him out-and over and over and over till the horse settles-out there, and stays setted till i am most defiately away from the food...
if hte horse is in a stall the same thing applies-but the horse is parallel to the back wall (or whatever wall is farthest from the food) and not allowed to approach the food till i close and lock the door.. again this implies my having the time and energy to keep going at it till the job is done... and doig this consistently EVERY SINGLE TIME!... miss once and you might as well not do it at all.. horses are masters at play jobs and taking advantage of the human-esp. if the human is inconsistet...
the pawing and restlessness at feed time is an indication of insecurity with his environment and the somewhat unnatural lifestyle we have imposed upon the horse because of the lifestyle we as humans have been forced to take up-living in small, crowded areas with not enough horsey free time!..
while very possible to fix that, it would require even more deeper work into working his mindset...
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 4:21 am:
Erm... pawing. I think it's actually something to do with breeding or young learned behaviour because I see it going from mare to foal in animals I know.
I don't think it's insecurity necessarily, some of them do it to show they are enjoying the food (does anyone else have horses that raise one foreleg under themselves and then hold it up waving gently while eating to indicate the food is particularly nice?)
If the pawing goes forward/aggressive at all I use the good old slap on the forearm.
Terri, does your horse put the ears back when he's pawing?
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 9:15 am:
All good thoughts above....still trying to figure this one out! This morning, my daughter put out his grain and he ate...he's a very intense eater, and yes, at times ears are back but usually when dogs are close to invading his space. He is tolerant of people standing near though, and my daughter can rub his head and shoulder while he is at the grain. The problem, having watched this closely today, seems to be AFTER the grain is gone. He gets MAD! Lauryn brough his hay out after he was finished with the grain and he spun and kicked out at her. He then energetically pawed through the hay (which had partially landed in his empty bucket) until his bucket was completely exposed again, seemed very angry that there was no food in there, and tossed the hay in all directions. Throughout, he was agitated and tense. He is very ready with his hind end...that is very apparent. The other horses are eating at the same time he is and pose no visible threat to him--they're in another paddock in a barn about 20 ft away.
Here are other details that might shed some light. The other three horses on our property have not been accepting of him at all. I have never had such a difficult time acclimating a new horse and have not been able to put him out with even one of the others without an unnacceptable level of aggression from the established herd member.
He has been at pasture with one other horse until he came to us. I know very few details...it's possible he was stressed at feeding time and the other horse took his food-- I just don't know.
He is barely three with no real foundation in place or ground work to speak of, just a general good attitude with humans, and can be ridden easily (basic, in the ring, just trying him out with stop, go, etc.) with no indication EVER of attempting a buck...he will come to you, you can run hands all over him (not too crazy about the sheath area, however, will pin ears). He will follow you around the paddock like a big dog.
He is in a separate paddock next to the other three horses and can see them and socialize (if you call getting bitten in the jowl socializing) over the fence. At other times of day not connected to feeding, he seems fine. He doesn't call out to the others and seems happy to just know they're there.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to take this one step at a time? We are getting ready to move in about a week to a much nicer horse property with a large barn and stalls where each will be fed in stalls with no dogs, distractions, etc. I'm thinking it would be best to minimize contact at this point and start the real work once we have moved in, because circumstances there will be quite different and my other two will be on new territory as well....which may help with the transition of this baby to their group.
Thanks! And yes, I do have a mare who paws the air gently when eating. It is a "happy" paw! She also paws before I put down the grain, but just a few times...it has never been a problem or an aggressive behavior towards me.
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 9:54 am:
Hi there,
My 20 month old does not pin ears while pawing. I feel he is happy/enjoying his feed as the pawing never takes place anywhere else! I have used a good slap to move him from me and I have occasionally slapped him on the leg while pawing to stop that.
I would like to use the whip to have him keep his distance from me in the stall and when I have the feed bucket handy. There are times when I use the whip behind him and he just turns his head and looks at me like "and that is supposed to do something?". he is so so laid back!
Should I crack him with the whip lightly to get him to move out. I also have a foam bat--like the old Fat Albert bats to make noise and to get him on the neck when he brings his head into me. Is this acceptable as well?
Thanks so much!
I am picking up a lot of ideas from the other posts as well.
Dom
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 10:58 am:
Hi, Terri! I have been thinking about you the last two days and have been getting so many HA posts in my mail box, that I haven't been reading all of them, so I didn't know you were here! Congrats on your move. Congrats, also, on the purchase of your new horse.
I agree with Melissa. While my horses don't stay 10 feet away, they do stay away, and if in an open stall situation, they allow me to preceed them and wait until I back away from the bucket before they are allowed to approach. If I am in a closed stall, I do not enter the stall until the horses have turned their butts away and are standing against the wall (usually with their bucket in front of them.)
Whenever I deal with a horse that I think will be aggressive, I always carry a lead rope with me . . . and I will wave it as I step toward the horse to make sure that the horse has the message that it is not allowed in my space. If, as I approach the bucket I notice the horse leaning toward me or stepping toward me, I will fling the rope out toward the horse until I see the horse set back or step back. The horse thinks getting to the food before someone else gets it is the important part, but we know that the horse is going to get fed eventually, and we also know that the respect part of the relationship is the important part of horse ownership.
I know it takes extra time in the morning before work, but I would set up some training sessions then, and whenever you can during the day . . . by bringing a bucket or hay into the paddock area (setting up the situation) and just working on getting the horse to stay back until you step back or give him a verbal or hand cue that it is okay to approach the food.
It may not take very long to accomplish this if every human involved in the feedings does it the same way. Definitely use something that has a total length of 10 feet or more so you don't get within reach of the horse's hind feet. A horse can kick the length of his body . . .
Take care, Terri. I'll write to you soon.
Holly
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 11:25 am:
Hey there Holly--I figured you were just a little behind! Usually hear from you right off the bat...
I have an experienced horse friend who recommends we just leave him alone at feeding time, but I'm uneasy with this as I know the problem still exists. Rather than avoid it, I'd rather correct it. I am not always going to be there and don't want to put a substitute feeder in a dangerous situation.
One other interesting thing he does is that if he expects you to have food when you come into his paddock and you don't, he gets angry and will kick out. Has done this once. He investigates, noses around for his grain/treat, and if he doesn't get anything, turns his butt to you and is threatening.
I feel that if there's ever this type of behavior exhibited, even if just at feeding, it's likely to creep into other areas, though he does seem incredibly easy most of the time.
Just as we advise people to slow down to savor each bite and increase the pleasurable sensation of eating, maybe I should try adding a brick or a large smooth rock or two in the feed bucket to slow down the whole process of eating so that he can enjoy it longer?
Will start working to keep him back from food with a lunge whip until invited to eat and see how that works....
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 11:59 am:
Hey, there.
Yes, while I was reading all the other posts, I was thinking you could add a couple of small boulders to make his eating experience less pleasureable, but when I thought about his pouting issue . . . it seemed that it might only make him more angry . . . and one look at those rocks might make it worse!!! The real issue here is the space issue . . . If he isn't in your space, he can't hurt you. After you are gone, if he wants to act out and have a tantrum because there are rocks in his soup then he can, but at least you or Lauryn or one of your helpers won't be around to get hurt.
Have a good day.
Holly
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 12:17 pm:
Rock soup! Too funny. You're right....it might just make him angrier....so will concentrate on the respecting space problem and leave the feed alone. He will just have to learn patience and tolerance. You have a good day too.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 12:41 pm:
Hello Terri,
First the good news; you don’t have problem horse. Your horse had a people problem and they trained him very well; to be a jerk!
Now the bad news; there isn’t an easy fix. Melissa is correct, your horse is acting just like a horse in a herd (we are part of the herd also)
I would suggest working on absolutely perfect ground manners without food being around. By that I mean having the ability to move his shoulders and hips forward, right, left and backwards smoothly and willingly without the slightest resistance every time you ask. I personally favor more backing than forwards as backing is very submissive for the horse.
Once you have established that, then start bringing food back into the equation. Now obviously you have to feed him in the mean time. Is it possible to remove him, or tie him so you can bring the food in safely and then turn him loose?
I love to work with a horse like this because once they loose the leader role they relax and become so soft and willing; on the ground and in the saddle. It seems to me that horses so up tight like this relax more and become softer, than horses that have never been in the leader position. I have a mare that was this way about food, once I demonstrated to her that I was a capable leader and I could move any of her feet any time I wished, she relaxed and is a joy to work with now. I still move her away from the food every time I feed; no exceptions.
Good luck and update us on how nice he becomes.
Alden
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 12:46 pm:
Then again, maybe you should just feed him with the mean rabbit and let'em duke it out!
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003 - 1:05 pm:
Alden--
Loved your post....especially the last one! The rabbit gets his food thrown into the cage with as hasty a retreat as possible. He's a direct descendant of those white beasts in Monty Python and the Holy Grail....run away!!!
Well, at this time, the only living things the horse is leader over are us humans....he is low man in pecking order with the others, probably misses his last pasture mate terribly, and is trying to figure out what happened to his idyllic human-free (relatively) existence.
My plan was to begin really working on him after we move...any pattern we establish now will soon be broken. But the ground work should begin ASAP, I agree. I have noticed he is not very responsive to cues asking for backing or lateral movement. My problem now is lack of daylight, a horrendous schedule while trying to pack and move...you get the picture. I am encouraged by his seemingly easygoing personality otherwise...Lauryn was able to easily ride him in the ring and he showed good attitude, soft mouth, good brakes....and he really knows nothing, had just been hacked "around the farm by a young girl." There is lots to work with here. Thanks again for the encouragement.
Your thoughts on this are very encouraging. I believe he will relax...
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