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Discussion on Fearful, Abused Horse, Any Ideas?
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 3:41 pm:
Hi,
I have never used clicker training, because I thought it more of a cue than an aid. But, from some reading I have done, I am thinking it could be used for certain instances too, like fear.
I have just taken in a horse abuse case in the last 2 weeks, & I have been trying to get to know him. However, he is so frightened of the human hand (or gosh forbid, a longe whip in the round pen of which I have never even touched it with him) - he actually just stands there, cringes & shakes. I have never seen anything like that, this is pretty sad.
I have tried a sort of a Parelli "Friendly Game" with the longe whip (the horse is loose in the round pen) - but I am not really getting anywhere, still he cringes & shakes, frozen in 1 place, but looking like he is going to take off to the moon any second.
So, I was thinking about clicker in order to be able to touch him on a consistent, predictable basis.
This horse is 11 years old, HAS been trained & very well, but the last 4 years have been spent with a very abusive man, & this horse is unpredictable to touch now. I rode him once the 1st week (after a very slow, careful grooming session & tacking up) & he is a made horse. But if he even imagines your hand will hit him, or theres a whip nearby, he is explosive. For example, I was standing next to him, holding the reins, & went to pet his shoulder. He pulled away from me so explosively, he nearly ripped my finger to shreds. It does seem to be hands, or any sort of a stick shaped object that sets him off. He is OK with plastic bags, & he will come to the stall door & nicker to you.
He is only on grass hay & Clovite - so no concentrates to heat him up. His prior diet was alfalfa hay, so still no concentrates either.
Any ideas? I am open to any.
Thank you in advance for your reply.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 4:06 pm:
Patience, patience and more patience...but you already know that...your post makes me sad and angry that someone could do that to an animal and I'm so glad you took him on to try to help him. Good luck!!
Have you tried just sitting with him and letting him get to know you?
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Member:
Apcohrs
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 4:23 pm:
A gal at the barn where I board adopted a tiny pony which had been severely abused - and starved. It takes time.
She has done wonders with him and her small kids can now groom him. But it has taken a year.
She is now working Almond in long lines with the intent of teaching him to pull a cart. She has the patience of a saint.
I'd like to get my hands on whoever abused this guy.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 8:13 pm:
Hey, Penner . . . . Bless you for taking him in and for giving him a chance . . .
I gave away and put down some of my string of horses before I moved to Colorado. I kept three. Two of the three have suffered abuse and have reacted as your horse does and I knew they weren't safe to give away. One that I've had for 9 years, has nailed me twice (cowkicked) when he thought I was going to hurt him. He's a great trail horse, though, so I have spent years (about 10 now) trying to get him to move on hand cues and verbal cues, and I have spent time just being with him . . . not asking him to do a thing . . . just being with him and standing quietly and talking or hugging him. He is so much better than he used to be, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, as far as being on the ground next to him. One thing I have noticed is that he has extremely sensitive skin . . . much more so than any of my other horses ever had . . . and he's this big, homely, dun ranch horse who is built like a tank, but if he gets a static electric shock from a brush on a really dry day, he will jump and snort like he's been hit with a cattle prod . . . and when it rains, he's inside the shelter, while the other horses are outside in the rain. I taught him to lower his head by massaging the part of his neck just in front of the withers until he DrOpped his head a fraction. And then I would take my hand away and back up a few steps, then after a couple of seconds, approach, massage, wait until his head dipped, take my hand off and back away and repeat. As you know, a lowered head is a cue of a relaxed horse, and the reward to teach him this was to remove my hand, since that's most likely what he wanted anyway . . . no human contact. Today, if I walk up and squeeze his neck in front of the withers, he DrOps his head almost to the ground.
The other gelding was brutally muscled to the ground during his gelding experience. He has never forgotten or forgiven . . . It took me two weeks to catch him, and I'm not exaggerating . . . and one day this summer, he had a flashback and it took me 6 hours in the pasture, in 90 degree heat, to catch him . . . He is now rideable, and I'm using Clinton Anderson techniques on him . . . he is going to be a nice reining and trail horse, but sometimes he still decides NOT to get caught and will jerk like he's been zapped if I reach out to touch him. One of the things that I found has worked with him is to take the feed bucket into his paddock and sit down low . . . and just let him come and eat while I hold the bucket and talk to him. At first, he would grab a bite and back off and walk around and then come back and grab another. I just sat . . . and kept my eyes low and talked nicely to him, and eventually, he let me pat him. The next step was to place the bucket on the ground and let him eat while I stood next to his shoulder and just rubbed his neck and shoulders and played with his ears and poll . . . You get the picture. I don't know if he will ever be totally over his flashbacks and occasional, "Nah, nah, you can't get me!!!" attitude, but he is still young, and is getting better.
The younger horse is one who has never gone by the rules in round pen training. I have started a lot of horses in the pen, and have never met one that wouldn't eventually turn in to me . . . this little gelding will never turn in to let me approach, and I have done hours and hours and days and days of work with him . . . but when I crouch down and wait with the halter, he will come up to me and nose my hair and face and nose the halter . . . and let me pet him . . .
Don't know if this helps in your situation, but I hope some of it will. Since your horse HAS had some good treatment in his past, maybe it will just take a little time for him to remember the good times and become trusting again.
Holly
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 11:11 pm:
Hi Penner
there are a few techniques involving getting specific reactions in the central nervous system of the horse to get huge changes in just a few days...
you still have to do tons of supporting stuff over several months, but once you start to get into teh CNS its not nearly the uphill climb that you may think....
my little arab is like yours-or was... first time to get him i couldnt... when ifinally had a huge block of time it took me 5 hrs to catch him... and this continued until i could get him into the round pen to get into the CNS...at which point i never had a problem catching him again..and i never used food or clicker training, as these are all conditioned response cues and while useful, are not completely trustworthy because a horse is generally a reflex animal which is a subcortex response, while conditioned response is a cortex response, which is a bit more unusual for a horse...
unfortunately i'm not "certified" to teach these specific tools, but if you're interested you can contact me privately and i can put you in touch with someone who can
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 12:06 am:
Missy, I'd definitely be interested in what you are talking about. Is there a web-site that describes what you are saying?
Holly
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 7:05 am:
Melissa what is it you did in the round pen that caused such a change in your Arab?
DrO
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 7:28 am:
Probably the nicest thing about clicker training (if done correctly) is that the animal knows without a doubt that you are happy with what he/she did.
This clarity of communication is a benefit in and of itself. (The look on the dog/horse's face when they realize what is going on is priceless!)
The second nice thing is that it is a totally positive training method - the subject is rewarded for desired behaviour and the only 'punishment' is withholding reward.
I don't have experience with abused horses but I wonder why a terrified horse wouldn't appreciate getting clear communication of what it is doing right. Clicker training can be a way to do this.
Clicker training does not, however, allow you to clearly express what behaviour is 'wrong' (e.g., kicking, biting etc.), so you will need to find other methods to deal with these types of situations.
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 11:14 am:
Here is a link that will help explain what I believe Mellissa is talking about:
https://www.commonsensehorse.com/ns.html
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 11:18 am:
I would start spending some time with the horse without doing anything - sit next to his stall/pen and read a book and every so often toss a tastey tid bit in for a treat. Don't eyeball him or even act like you think he is there. Read aloud. Don't expect much but be very predictable with food and water and being in his area.
Over time, he will become accustomed to you and you can begin retraining using positive reinforcement. Right now, I don't think you want to do much other than demonstrate you are kind, predictable, consistent, etc.
When he is accepting of your physical proximity, you can try introducing your touch by using the back of your hand to stroke (less claw like) or even a firm whip to stroke ala TTEAM. If you do this in a round pen so he can walk away if it is too much for him, that is good.
Training through gluttony is always a valid technique. Keep a small feed dish on the ground of the round pen and when you "click" (I use unique noise I make by pulling my tongue off the roof of my mouth) you can DrOp something tastey in the dish.
Try to work with him in very short, positive, low key lessons. Listen to what he tells you he can accept and adjust.
Good luch to you and him!
Chris
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 12:54 pm:
hi there
anyone more interested in what i'm saying can contact me privately or talk to "the man" himself
randylowell.com
its just a few pages-he doesnt believe in teaching by writing it down in a book or making a video, since each horse is an individual and must be treated as such...
but you can call him- and get more info on what it is he has to say (just have plenty of time-he's a talker!)(*LOL**)
janette-the website you gave is a bit about what i'm saying, but falls short in that it assumes understanding the nervous system of a human helps us to understand the nervous system of a hrose-and in the basic sense it does, but it misses all the important details of a horse being a truly reflexive animal, and as humans we need to really understand how those reflexes work in the total environment to really help the horse undetstand...
this is why i dont like clicker training or conditioned response training...yes, it helps you to address a certain issue, but you're missing the big picture...tap into the deeper system of a horses mind and all the little issues go away...
Dr.O
i cant give out specifics of what i did-i certainly wouldnt want it to be used by anyone who didnt really understand the principles behind it.. its very easy to mess it up and really make a huge mess with the horse
but basically i used the fact that this horse's sympathetic nervous system was in a heightened state-this is where the fearful and overreactive state comes from.. i was able to stimulate the symp. nervous system in a certain way which kicks in the parasympathetic nervous system in a certain way, to get the horse to let down more completely which leads to a change in his symp. system, and as he lets down he will perceive his immediate environment in a different way (i made sure i was part of that environment!)
it literally created an overnite response..
since then i've just tapped deeper and deeper into herd laws and physiological laws to allow the horse to understand me in his mind-he's not capable of changing the way he thinks-mother nature hardwired him to understand herd behavior-and nothing else..
i've had to change the way i think instead-as a higher brained (cortex) creature, a human is capable of doing that... the downfall of hte human is that we're pack animals, and we try to treat the horse as such-and they most definately are not... and so the confusion.. which creates all sorts of bad habits, which are actually just herd/physiological reflexes running wild because of incorrect nurturing...
so now i think like a herd animal-which is a lot more difficult than most people think, because it requires me to actually understand the intricacies of a herd-which is not what mother nature has hardwired me for!!!*LOL*
so now i've totally confused everyone i think!
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Member:
Jef3382
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 1:07 pm:
I have a horse who had been abused and what I did with him was to first find something that he liked so he would have something positive to associate with me. From there we worked on lots of just spending time together, taking walks, letting him graze, grooming. We became friends.
I spent a year just retraining him my way on the basics so he could learn to not be fearful of everyday events. I tried to break everything down into as small a parts as possible and introduce those to him one at a time. I could not even speak sharply to him or he would panic and bolt so any bad behavior got ignored but I really made a big deal out of anything good he did and he got to where he really wanted to please me to get his rub or cookie.
This horse had become the horse of my dreams and he trusts me to the point where I spread a tarp over him awhile back and pulled it off over his head without a flinch. He just stood there with his ears pricked forward wanting to know what was next. I really feel that because he has known the worst side of humanity he values the love and care he gets. He waits for me everyday by the fence and no feed is so good that he can't stop eating to give me a nuzzle when I tuck him in for the night.
I have had him for going on six years now and I would not trade this horse for love or money. I am really humbled by how much trust he has in me and it keeps me looking for new ways to strengthen our bond.
Good luck with your new horse. With time and patience you can overcome a world of fear. Horses are wonderfully forgiving animals.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 5, 2003 - 1:54 pm:
Hi All,
Thank you so much for your responses! 
I see now where I must go with this horse, just be with him, no riding, etc until he trusts me, & that will take time.
This is only the 2nd horse I have that was abused, so I am certainly no expert. But now I am seeing that I must do the same things I did for the abused Arab I have, & that did take a long time (2 yrs).
I wasn't sure if it meant doing the same things as the Arab was aggressive, this horse is fearful. But, it sounds like the treatment is still the same - just be with him, get to know him, keep everything low key & patience.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 10:30 pm:
Hi All, more info post - I sure could use your interpretations of the following past scenarios on different days (ie: is this fear or aggression or defense etc).
#1: in the round pen & horse is loose:
Horse does come up to you when invited, occasionally licks, but has not chewed or put head down. Will follow you, & whoa & stay when you say so. I am on the left side. Then, with the longe whip tip I started making TTeam small circles on the horses body. He trembles & cringes but eventually relaxes (& eyes get soft) in the area in front of the girth. All is (relatively OK, not perfect) until I get to the flank area. He trembles, cringes, whites of eyes are showing above, NO ears back, stands in 1 place (but looking like he wants to take off)...
but this time he is also lifting his hind leg to kick, but doesn't (at least I back off before it would happen). I keep the longe whip tip still on his body, but stop its movement. The trembling stops, whites of eyes still showing, NO ears back, but the hind leg goes up/down, but no kick. I DrOp the longe whip, go up & pet him & get a big horse sigh from him, & quit for the day.
-> was this aggression???
#2 (another day): I am grooming/massaging him slowly. He is fine even around the flank area. In fact I find a little place around the dock that he loves to be scratched. He will not move over when tapped on the barrel or HQ area, leaning on him got him to move over. I am a certified Equine massage therapist (16 week class not the 7 day clinics), & there is no pain to be found on this guy.
I put the saddle on. He gets apprehensive (whites of eyes now showing, but no ears back, no dancing), but its on, & not tightly cinched, just snug - (I cinch up at least 3x & walk them before I ride any horse). I try to relax him by going to that little area around the dock, but when I move to the HQ area he starts cringing when I touch him in that same spot he just loved.
-> is this fear?
These are previous situations (not since yesterday), but I have been wondering about them. I feel like I am getting mixed signals from him & I'm not sure how to read him.
What do you guys/gals think? Thank you!
PS: I had a standard prepurchase exam done & blood drawn (no xrays) when I bought him & he passed with flying colors & the vet had even cleaned his sheath without tranquilizers.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 10:44 pm:
he's not showing you mixed signals at all.. he's showing you classic fear symptoms.. the kicking is him being very bothered and upset about what you are doing...he just wants you out of that area because he's scared to death of what you're doing, but his feet are so stuck to the ground he cant move (this is why you cant move him over.. its not pain as you said, its stuck feet..)and it comes from a fear rooted response.. ever heard the phrase "too scared to move"?..
you've got a classic case right there...
he's unable to put his head down because of fear, he cant relax and give a proper chew and yawn response because he has no reason to trust a human-just because you're being nice now doesnt mean you wont turn into mr. mean and nasty that used to own him tomorrow... the grab response on his flanks with the tip of the whip is fear/uneasiness...that's a tender area on a horse no matter what (one bite from a predator there and that's the end!)
personally, until this horse could properly relax with me on the ground and learn to move his feet more normally (i.e. move over with body language/vector manipulation rather than voice or touch), and then handle me in the upper plane, i wouldnt dream about putting a saddle on him, never mind riding him....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 6:34 am:
Penner, I agree with Melissa this sounds like fear and the leg lifting may ust be an avoidance and not in prepartation of kicking. A lot of horses do this when tickled in spots they don't like and some do it who seem to enjoy being tickled low in the flank. On the other hand, they can kick quicker with the leg already up so be careful.
I might start a little slower, not push him to the point that he is cringing with fear. One day I will push him too far and have him blow up. But if you feel this is helping since he does eventually calm down, I certainly would reward the positive responses, AND ONLY POSITIVE RESPONSES, with 4 or 5 kernals of corn. He will learn to relax much quicker. See Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned for suggestions on technique.
Thanks for the link Janette. I went to the site and frankly cannot get a firm hold on what they are trying to say in the training section of the site. Melissa I have to admit this idea of stimulating the sympathetic and parasympathetic system directly to change horse behavior is a little goofy. These sysems do respond to the horses environment, both external and internal, and from that standpoint all training involves manipulation but you seem to be talking about a more direct connection. I guess I am not questioning the techniques after all you have obviously seen results. But since no one will explain them find the rationale of why they work...unexplaned. As Randy writes on his site, "I’m talking about things that have never before been written about, shown, or even identified". How do you critique that but I have always been suspicious of folks who claim "special knowledge" that no one else can see.
DrO
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 10:38 am:
Dr.O-i admit it does sound a little hokey, esp. since i am fearful of giving you more direct ifo because i wouldnt want someone applying it to their own horse without having the proper techniques to back it up... and because each horse is unique, what works for one horse may be a disaster for another... each horse needs to be treated individually for its own unique problems.. eventually they all have to learn the same stuff, but the road may be different for each horse...
the first time i met this guy i was thinking "oh boy here comes another cowboy with another "spin" on round pen training techniques... and then i listened to him lecture before a clinic... wow.. did he blow me away.. the basic ideas are straightforward logic in how a horse really thinks-problem is, we dont really listen...we ignore certain responses, or read them for what they arent because they please us.. we train them artificially without any thoughts as to whether or not the horse really understands...sometimes we think they do, but do they, really?.. if they did, would they buck, wring their tail or pin their ears?...rear, bite, kick, walk over top of us, run off, be hard to catch? think about human responses-when (as a human) are you most likely to be difficult in a situation - when you have no respect for the person in charge and/or when you maybe dont understand what they are asking?... or when you respect the person in charge and understand what they want of you...
if you respected your boss would you tell him "no!" when he asked a simple request of you? would you invade his personal space or steal food from his plate?... (*LOL*)
but we think its cute when a horse does it huh?
and we only think its bad when its gone too far..
(remember in a herd personal space is approx. a 5ft bubble around each horse.. so your horse (if he respects you) would stay 10ft. away from you at all times except when invited in...)
as far as para. and symp. nervous system responses, their is a direct connection... it reaches deep into subcortex/primal responses, and when you work into reflexes (which are subcortex/primal responses) you can effect them.. but i understand that without seeing this firsthand or getting a better description from me, its a little hard to believe, and you have no reason to take it on faith...
ok.. i think i need to get off my soapbox now!
sorry!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 10:41 am:
Just my two cents...take it slower...Just sit with him for awhile not asking for anything and giving him tidbits as another post suggested. I feel so sorry for this horse. He has NO trust left for humans...I KNOW you can get it back it'll just take a lot of time.
Good luck!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 10:44 am:
i just realized that my posts may be a little contradictory in that i'm saying stop thinking like a human and think like a horse, then i ask you to think like a human in order to think like a horse... my description of invading your boss's personal space being like a horse invading your personal space for the same reasons is a bit inaccurate, but i'm going for just some generalization here...and the same for the other examples
sorry for the confusion
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 11:19 am:
Hi Melissa,
I am intrigued by your posts and it's useful to know there's another way out there (;).
Thank you.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 12:04 pm:
PHEW!
at least somebody doesnt think i'm totally off my rocker!
*swipes away sweat from brow!*
(*LOL*)
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 12:33 pm:
Hi, I just wanted to clarify the above 2 scenarios were last week, when I realized the depth of his fear (I didn't even know how bad it was when I got him).
So he has just been in a paddock with another gentle horse for now over a week.
The paddock is close to the house & our activites (which are pretty low key as its only my husband, me & our older dogs. No "horse eating pygmies" - children - around. Sorry, I couldn't resist that . That was supposed to be a joke about how some horses spook with children running around. I have to try to have some sense of humor about this to keep my chin up too).
Yesterday, over the paddock fence, for lack of anything really else to do with him, I started teaching him clicker. He seemed to like that & picked up touching a small ball held in my hand with his nose, click + "Good Boy", then treat. He even got to the point where he would touch it on the ground too.
Not that clicker is going to solve any problems, but it was something to do & still spend time with him. I figure, he'll learn something thats low key & seems fun to him, & I'll be spending time with him doing next to nothing high pressure. (He was loose in the paddock & free to walk away any time).
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Member:
Bodie
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 2:30 pm:
Penner,
I've had good experiences with my horse and clicker training. He also came from a confirmed abusive background. One reason I think he likes clicker training is that it is not something that was done with him before. It is all positive with no negative connections for him. I also found clicker training greatly improved my timing and feel - I had to pay attention closely to be able to reward the little tries. It isn't for every situation and every horse, but there are times when the results are tremendous. It may be the answer for him. If you haven't found it already, clickercenter.com is a good web resource.
Good luck with him, and keep us posted.
Julie
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 4:03 pm:
LOL Melissa
I personally have had a great interest in this area but have had little luck finding the detailed information that you speak of. I do realize what your saying about deadly in wrong hands and wrong technique.
Thank you for posting Randy's website
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 4:13 pm:
unfortunately Janette, you will not find that information, not without a truly exhausting search...
first off get the government/BLM annals of horse behavior for the past 20-30 yrs or so...
get out on the ranges for weeks on end and study those horses...
get a degree or two in behavioral psycology before you start all this so that you can read deeper into the situations that you see...
work on a thousand or so different horses...
i think there's more but cant remember it!
we're hoping in the next year or so some written info will come out, and possibly some basic videos on basic herd laws and social etiquette... problem is, its pretty much only him teaching this stuff on such a deep level right now, and until he gets a few of us "up to snuff" and spread out with some other things set up, he cant make too much of a big deal of this stuff... there just isnt enough time to work all the horses..
i just happened to get lucky to get working with him.. and i thank the goddess every day that i got that chance...(and i think my horses do too!)
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 7:42 pm:
OMG! Melissa I am far too old to do all of that I will wait for the condensed version and hope I am fortunate enough to work with Randy in the future.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 10:10 pm:
i hope so too... it certainly has been a privilege and a joy to work with him and see the amazing changes in my horses...
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New Member:
Dogman
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 9:59 am:
Penner,
I, too, have seen an almost unbelievable turnaround in my horse using the clicker. He had many of the same fear responses that you describe, though he's never tried to kick or show any aggression. He only wants to escape whatever he thinks is about to kill him. He's 11 years old and had some VERY rough handling in the past. I've had him for 16 months, tried many different approaches. More than anything else, it has just taken patience, being willing to be "with" him, follow the herd around the pastures, and use good herd "non-verbal" communication the best I understand it and am able.
I saw a lot of change in trust over the first year. But I wanted to find some way to "turn the corner". So I decided to try the clicker. His previous owner told me I'd never be able to get a saddle on him. And the first time I showed him a saddle pad, he tried to make a new door in the side of the grooming bay. After about 4 months of CT, he went on his first trail ride yesterday. Woods, deer running, open fields, hills, streams, mud, rocks, another "challenging" horse on the ride, etc. but in the end, he couldn't have been more of a gentleman. We didn't see that "dreaded white eye" even once.
Now, whenever something startles or frightens him, he wants to react at first, stops to think about it, makes a decision, then chooses to come to me as his point of reference. It's as though he has learned to trust my judgement as I've learned to trust his. I can say, "Yes, that is scary, isn't it. And you are free to react if you need to. But right now, I need you to do (fill in the blank). And he seems willing to say, "OK, what you ask of me always seems safe. So I'll pay more attention to you and your request than to whatever has caused me fear." It's a wonderful feeling to see the change in him!
Bless you for your efforts and good luck!
Dan
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 12:06 pm:
Dan,
I have never done clicker training, but it is so wonderful to read how it has helped your horse.
Thank you for sharing such an encouraging story.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 8:32 pm:
Hi Dan & Julie,
Thanks for your encouraging words! I am hoping I get the same change you got in attitude & demeanor with it.
I will occasionally update this post every few months to let you all know how things are going.
Right now, I am debating buying some clicker videos.
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Member:
Dogman
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 11:17 am:
Penner said:
"Right now, I am debating buying some clicker videos."
Dan says:
Do it!
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Member:
Redk
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 11:23 am:
Penner -
You're not going to get anywhere unless you earn the horse's trust. Everything he's doing are prime examples of lack of trust - and rightfully so! People haven't given him much reason to trust in the past 4 years. Don't leave him alone in a pasture - work with him every day in the round pen. Set goals for yourself - "Today, I'm going to pet him on the forehead and have him stand for it." Horses are pretty good at learning to give in to pressure and they relax when the pressure is off. With that day's goal in mind - only do that. Once you've pat him on the forehead, turn and walk away - take the pressure off. You can do this several times, but ONLY pet him on the forehead, don't get greedy and try to pet his ears/sides/etc. He'll think - "that's all she wanted to do? no big deal!". If he tenses when you're doing something - he doesn't trust you! Go back to doing something that he trusts! By setting goals and sticking to them, you'll earn his trust.
It'll take time - trying to undo someone's abuse can't be done overnight. Don't rush it and glory in the small steps.
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Member:
Jef3382
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 3:18 pm:
I agree totally with Lisa and I'd like to add that spending time watching your horse will also help. You will learn what he likes, what he doesn't, what scares him, what he's interested in. Learning all this will help you develop a bond with your horse. And there are going to be occasions when your horse will spaz out when something happens that triggers an old bad memory. How you respond to this will really effect your horse and in many cases speed up your progress with him. My boy kicked once when I first got him when I was trying to pick out his feet. I said "hey cut it out" and that was all, but he was expecting to get hit and sort of exploded. The whole time I just stood there and didn't do anything. When he was done I moved him back to where he should be picked up everything that had gotten kicked and knocked around and said "aren't you ashamed of yourself for acting like that." He was looking at me very mournfully and when I started back to get his foot again to continue where we left off he had that foot lifted before I'd even reached down. It was a big turning point in our relationship because he finally realized that I wasn't going to hurt him even though he hadn't behaved as well as he should and I think he started to trust me that day. I've had him for five years and it's been a slow but steady progress. This year finally he will let me handle his ears without flinching. I never push him, I ask him and if he's not emotionally ready for something I back off and wait a few months then ask again. He never disappoints me.
Johnnie
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 12:58 pm:
Hi All, Just an update.There seems to be some progress going on here. One other thing, he was/is definitely the low man on the totem pole with the other horses & seemed to prefer people (at first). I include this only as an observation, as I'm not sure it has anything to do with his fear behavior.
Anyway, I bought the clicker videos & did this for 2 weeks in his paddock. I think it helped him get accustomed to my presence.
Then we went back in the round pen everyday, but just the basic round penning - send him out, wait til he licked & chewed. I set a goal that I wouldn't go any further until he added DrOpping his head on the rail to that routine. I would round pen him 20-30 min (with breaks & changes of direction).
I changed a few things in my routine too. I changed my way of walking up to him. Before, when he stopped for me, I was walking to his shoulder at 45 deg. Then I changed it to waiting a few sec to see if he would DrOp his head standing there, then walking to his head (even if I didn't get the DrOp), holding my hand relaxed & forward, palm down (like another horses nose), my head slt tilted to the side & not making eye contact. I would also give him a tiny carrot slice sometimes at that point (no more clicker tho).
It took 3 days to start DrOpping his head routinely, asking to come in on the rail.
Now, I noticed a few new things. He is better friends with the other horses, so now he comes up to me when loose, only about 50% of the time when I ask. But, its still pretty impressive when he does. From 1 acre away, he sees me, I hold my hand out like in the RP, & not make eye contact & he walks all the way up to me.
Now, I think tho, he thinks he has got my number & is testing me! Bcuz now in the RP, he tries to come in to the center & stop without being asked! a Bozo No No, in my mind, so he gets sent back out until he DrOps his head on the rail, then I let him in. I also get him to follow me loose everywhere tho now, & back up out of my space when I back up.
Then I added in the RP..
I have one of those 22 ft yacht ropes, so thats on his halter & I have been able to slowly put it over his HQ, make a dip in the rope, & slowly swish the dip against his hind legs, without tail swish, the dreaded white eye rim, or the hind leg stamping (I am still too chicken to try this with the lunge whip ). He will get a carrot slice sometimes too (I try to mix it up when he'll get one). I am also wearing my riding gloves (for rope burns).
I am also working on the "Head Down" cue.
But I am getting somewhere I think, & he is changing (even if its occasionally somewhat testing ME now).
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Member:
Jjet
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 2:36 pm:
Penner: Your progress sounds great! I agree that the avoidance of eye contact upon approach, and using a low, barely outstretched arm is good technique. You might even turn your body a little sideways as you approach. You won't have to do it forever. In the past, that type of approach has helped me to teach a very frisky horse to want to come to me most of the time. He was the kind who liked to play Chase-Me. Enjoyed frolicing and showing off. He was high energy and playful, but also very suspicious of a lot of things, particularly quick movement. At that time, he was a real problem for the farrier, as well.
Also, to catch him in the pasture, I would turn my back to him when he would start running, and pretend to ignore him. The curiosity would eat him up and he would eventually end up coming up to me. Of course he would be well rewarded with 'Good Boys' and pets. He seemed especially interested if I went to pet one of the other horses. However, if he was in really high spirits he would have to make a couple of runs around me before he would either come to me or let me come to him.
I found that this works for me for approaching a loose horse, in most situations, and with most horses, some to a greater degree than others.
But what I really wanted to emphasize is that calm, slow movement, eye aversion, oblique (from the horses' rear, you facing forward) approach with the hand low and barely outstretched, and possible partial angling of the body away from the animal, in initial training, and in the more stressful situations, goes a long way in building their trust and confidence (I also think it piques their curiosity somehow).
Sounds like you are doing extremely well with this guy. Keep up the good work! Jan
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 6:13 pm:
This sounds like great progress. Here are some more ideas:
The dog folks often refer to a small book called Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas. I have found a couple to be helpful with horses -
One is to approach indirectly, not on straight line.
Another is to lick your lips.
A third is to not look eye to eye.
In watching Mark Rashid work horses, I noticed he made his body narrow to draw a horse in - i.e. turned sideways to the horse. To send the horse out or away, he turned frontal and extended his arms, and if necessary, made an strange whooshing noise.
I've also found leaving the sunglasses off helps ground work, too.
Cheers.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 1:20 pm:
My Xmas present today! I was able to approach him this Christmas morning in the paddock as he was lying down & pet him on his crest while he was lying down!
This is the first time I have been able to approach any horse lying down in a matter of weeks, not years. But I have been so careful & consistent in the RP & every day, not even every Other day.
I have been using a combination of training methods - Dr O's article on using treats as an incentive to procedures, Monty Roberts way of walking up to a horse, John Lyons head down cue, Parelli's actual hand placement for the head down cue, Wil Howe's & Marv Walker's way of sending a horse around in the round pen & bringing them back in, desensitizing with a even softer rope than the yacht rope.
It is working!
Merry Christmas everyone - this was my best present!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2003 - 9:43 am:
YEAH!!!!!!!!! What a fabulous Christmas gift!
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