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Discussion on Dry mouthed horse
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Monday, Jun 11, 2007 - 11:14 pm:
I've got 2 issues going on with my horse, which I am sure are related. He is a 15 year old Appendix QH gelding--originally trained Western Pleasure, but really has more TB in him and looks great in his "dressage" getup. I have had him for 4 years and have been working him at training level. His problem--a very dry mouth and resistance to the bit. He takes the bit fine but I've noticed that his lips just don't quite come together and his tongue shows just a little bit. His mouth is not gaping open. When I ride him conistently, he comes along great, but if I can't get out to ride for a week or two, he picks up the habit of yanking the reins out of my hands and he doesn't want to come on the bit and relax. I have a decent seat, and try to be easy with my hands. His teeth have been checked, I have tried a number of different bits--currently am using a Robart full check snaffle. It is supposed to be pinchless.
Questions: Any suggestions for what I should do the second he yanks? How can I encourage the salivation and relaxation that tells me he is working without resistance?
Thanks.
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 7:42 am:
I think copper bits encourage salivation but they taste bitter (probably why they salivate). There is a D-ring snaffle that you can get with rollers on it, every other roller is copper so it might not be as bitter. Not sure if sweet iron can help with this either, but I know it tastes better (yes, I have tasted it  ).
Do you think he's resisting and yanking because of the bit?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 8:05 am:
Hi Vicki,
A horse I rode consistently a few years back had the bad habit of yanking the reins out of my hands. He usually did it the moment I took a break. Instead of slowly stretching into it as I gave him a loose rein to relax he'd dive his head forward throwing me off balance. My trainer (a good one, who checked to make sure everything fit correctly) decided it was a game to the horse so every time he did it, instead of taking the planned rest, she had me pick up the reins immedietely, leg on, and back to work for a few minutes. It took a few times of missing the work break before the horse got the idea and he soon stopped ranking-he was then rewarded with a long rein. If your horse is doing it while working, I would suggest up the level of intensity for a few minutes with lateral work, add flexion/bend, etc.
As for the lack of relaxation...have you had someone watch you ride? I'm wondering if you are riding with a straight or stiff elbow or "broken" wrists that prevent a soft, elastic contact for the horse. Just a thought...
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 8:53 am:
Thanks for the responses. I have tried a sweet iron bit that I borrowed from a friend. It didn't really seem to make much difference in the salivation. My understanding is that copper and sweet iron are not allowed in the dressage world, but then again I don't show in rated shows, so I guess it doesn't matter. Is the full cheek considered a more severe bit? I don't know if he yanks because of the bit, or if it is a habit or disobedence.
Fran, I do keep my thumbs up--no broken wrist for me. As far as stiff elbow, I'm not sure. I think I try to be elastic, but then he yanks. Upping the work demand when he does that is a good suggestion. I'll try it. He just seems to resist the contact and wants his head. He doesn't run off with me or anything, just wants to go on a loose rein.
I have thought about some round pen work with side reins. He hates it!
Thanks.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 9:43 am:
Hi Vicki,
It is hard to offer an opinion w/o seeing the behavior. Sometimes horses yank because they resent a contact, sometimes they are losing their balance because they are falling on the forehand.
I'm a fan of loose ring snaffles because they do not offer as much of a leaning spot as the full cheek or an egg butt, but (as has been pointed out elsewhere on the boards), the action of the bit comes mostly from the rider.
If he's falling on his forehand, round pen work in side reins will likely make that problem worse, encouraging him to drag around on his inside shoulder.
I would suggest lots of walk-trot transitions under saddle. Try to ignore his head for a while, and focus on getting the transitions light and accurate. This should encourage him to carry himself behind more.
Good luck. Maybe there is someone who can watch you and offer an opinion?
- Elizabeth
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Member:
chrism
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 4:42 pm:
If you feed him a lump of sugar after bridling and before your ride, you may encourage the salivation.
You wrote that his lips don't quite come together. Perhaps your bit is too thick? Or, you can experiment with raising it or lowering it in his mouth by adjusting the cheek pieces.
If you are having trouble maintaining equal and consistent rein contact, you may want to try web reins with stops. They allow you to calibrate your rein length and maintain it. The consistency often can help a horse relax with the rein contact and settle into the work. I recently picked up a pair at a used tack sale and was reminded how easy it is to be more consistent and even with them instead of the conventional laced reins.
Cheers.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 5:48 pm:
my question is is his yanking and dry mouth bit related? or training/tension related... assuming his teeth are fine, there are no other physical problems, and you've tried several different bits, than it really sounds more tension/training related...
"it is not what you put in their mouths but what you put in their minds"
dry mouth and yanking of the reins are a sign of tension.. you can try different irons that encourage salivation and feeding sweets that gets his mouth moving, but you'll only be masking a symptom...
what does your trainer say?... generally horses that are very tight in their necks will have dry mouths and will try to jerk the reins out when given a chance in an attempt to alleviate the tension in their neck...
as elizabeth said its hard to evaluate a behavior without seeing a horse, but i would be more likely to work lots of long and low to encourage really good relaxation in his topline than worry about changing bits or anything like that...
btw, you can still have broken wrists when your thumbs are up.. there are several different ways to hold your wrists improperly...
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 6:57 pm:
I just read an article that suggested working your horse over ground poles, around cones or buckets, weaving in and out, etc. so he looks at where he's going and learns to round his back. It also give's the horse something to think about other than his bit. It might be worth a try also.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 6:59 pm:
I am going to throw something out there. My qh holds in his mouth too. He is tons better though, now that his EPSM is more under control! he used to hold EVERY muscle in his body, now he is actually showing some supsension (at times). You mentioned that he regressses most when you go a week without riding. With EPSM-type horses, they need to exercise consistently. When they don't they get rigid. How about trying to work more consistently and MAYBE cutting back on his carbs/sugars? JUST A THOUGHT!
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 12, 2007 - 11:18 pm:
I really appreciate ALL the comments, you guys. I love this site! Here's a bit of an update. We had a nice ride today. No yanking at all until we came to the canter. Until then, he worked well and was relaxed--no salivation still though. When we canter, he wants to stick his head out and flatten out. We did lots of circles and I worked really hard on my position. I agree with you, Melissa, that I'm not sure it's a bit issue, more a tension, perhaps sore back problem. We do go long and low. He likes the long and low and it's a good way to get him warmed up and relaxed. I am having a friend of mine who is an equine masseuse come and work on him to see if she feels anything.
He goes so much better when worked consistently. I'm sure it helps when I am concentrating on my position, too. Also, I wish I had a trainer! Right now, I would have to haul to one as I board at a small barn with no trainer. That's one of my goals for the summer while I'm out of school (I teach)--locate a trainer that's close.
Christine, I used the sugar lumps for a while. He didn't take them at first, but he learned to like them. I forgot about that! I don't think this bit is too fat. He just keeps his lips parted a little bit and I can see his tongue just a little bit. His mouth doesn't gape open, but he also chomps the bit sometimes--again, not the relaxed chewing of the bit, but a grinding. I don't know if this makes sense to you guys. I am an amateur rider and just trying to figure out the best thing for this 4-legged friend of mine.
Anyway, I thank you all for all the suggestions and comments.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 8:05 am:
Vicki,
Have you talked to trainers to see if they will come to you? My trainer travels to me - granted, on top of her fee I pay millage as she's about an hour away, but she's well worth the price and I've managed to coordinate a few other lessons so that we split the additional cost.
Did anyone mention lot's of transitions? Well executed transitions between gaits and within a gait also work very well to soften a horse.
Christine brought up web reins and I agree with her 100% - they are a huge help in maintaining consistent length and I find them a lot less slippery than leather.
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 9:51 am:
We have had some issues with trainers coming to our small barn--the owner (who travels a lot and is rarely there) is concerned about insurance issues and the trainer that we had coming to the barn (who was way out of my price league)no longer comes because there were not enough students. Anyway, that's another discussion, I guess.
Yes, I agree lots of transitions do help him soften and we work a lot on those. I will take a look at the web reins. Thanks!}}
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Member:
ellab
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 11:26 am:
Who rode him for the first 11 years of his life? Many "school type" horses (those who carry a lot of kids) learn the habit of yanking the reins to get the kids off their mouth. Once a habit is learned then like any other it is not easy to break.
It will be important for you to figure out if this is a behavior issue or if something is bugging him. They would be dealt with completely differently.
EllaB 
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 11:49 am:
Vicki .. not seeing the horse, and assuming all health issues are in line, I would have to consider tension and stiffness. Is your horse soft and supple, or does he seem tight and bracey.
As for the yanking and head out, I work on a lot of lateral flexes and one rein stops to encourage softness, especially in the transitions.
From a walk, I try to hold both the reins in to my thighs to get vertical flex and a little break at the poll. When he breaks a little, I will release and then bring him back. Transition up to the trot and hold til he breaks at the poll, then immediately release. Practice the same through all transitions including downward as that is just as important as transitioning up. This will all help to get his legs under him and keep from falling on the front.
It is important that you time your release at the exact moment he gives, even just a little bit to start. Reward the slightest effort, then ask for more. A couple of weeks of these suppling exercises should make a big difference in his relaxing and yanking. If he becomes more relaxed, you should see more chewing and moistening in the mouth as well.
I know in English, you want more contact than in Western, but imo, you need to get him soft before you can go back to regular contact.
DT
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 4:04 pm:
Ellab--He was a lesson horse for 7 years. That may be where he learned this little evasion trick. I realize that it is a hard habit to break--it's just that it comes and goes with him.
Dennis--I will work on those suggestions. Thanks. You do have a way of being very clear in your instructions. I am grateful for everyone's comments and what's really nice is that some of the suggestions confirm that I wasn't tooo far off base. Vicki
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 6:25 pm:
Dennis, when you say release, how much release are you talking about? Just a bit of give so the horse maintains the break but looser; or do you DrOp the reins significantly at this stage? If you DrOp all contact, do you gradually DrOp less as the horse gets the idea in order to maintain a bit of contact (English here)?
I've got a young 'un that this will come in handy with. (Still write with that cowgirl twang every time I talk to you, Cowboy! !!)
Thanks
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 13, 2007 - 10:59 pm:
No problem mam .....
Initially, I would give an immediate and complete release and lots of praise. As the horse gets softer and softer, you can gradually release less and less until you are able to maintain a reasonable amount of contact.
Cheerio Darlin'
DT
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 1:12 am:
Vicki, I think you are right. the issues are connected. My mare has the same two problems.
I can try to tell you what I have done that is making a difference.
In May during a dressage clinic my instructor taught me how to get her head low and I do mean low and while keeping her head low flex her to the inside! I saw him do it in a matter of minutes, it took me a few weeks to get it happening consistently.
After doing this on both sides I use in opening inside rein and circle smaller, I do this at walk or trot, try to maintain some bend and rhythm, don't let her 'hang' on her stiff side. I get her off the rein with as little pulsing as possible, then using inside leg spiral out.
After some of these exercises I do serpenitnes off the centre line. I don't go all the way to the wall since the purpose is the turning.
I may do two or three sets of these depending on how the workout is going.
Then I do some flex and counter flex, going down the long side I will ask for as much or her nose to come in as she can give and still go straight without using a ton of leg. As expected she can do one side much better than the other, at first on her stiff side she could only give me her nose; then on the short side I ask for counterflex.
When I first started this routine it took pretty much our ride time to get it done.
Today we did two sets in about 20 min.
She is making a tiny bit of salivation along her lips, staying softer and between my reins.
The rein jerking has almost completely stopped, her overall relaxation has increased, she actually blows now and makes little rumbly breathing sounds.
When she softens(gives)I soften to her but I don't release. Coming from a western background it has taken me a while to learn not to release so now I figure she will have to be content with a softening as a reward.
Also, I give her some carrot after I mount, (it seems to stay in her mouth longer than a sugar cube) and during a walk break.
I tried about a dozen different bits, she would grind the bit also, the one she likes is a Herm Sprenger KK Ultra Bit, I forget the special coating it has.
She also had a sore back, I have changed saddles and that has helped her stride and rhythm.
There has been much improvement over the past month. She still doesn't make foam but maybe she never will.
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 4:24 pm:
Wow, Lori, sounds like our horses are related! Thanks for the ideas and exercises. I will incorporate them into my ride. I do like to start out letting him move long and low and gradually bring him up, but I have not done a lot of turning while long and low. That makes a lot of sense. I am a big believer in treats and usually carry some with me as I ride. I will take a look at the sprenger bits--I think they are pretty expensive though.
Now, for a bit of an update. Josh, my horse, had a massage today. A friend of mine who is an equine massage therapist, appraiser and judge, came out to watch me ride and work on him. She noticed a kind of quirk in his gait that she thinks is related to calcium buildup in his hip and spine. He tends to swing his right hind in forward as he trots instead of tracking straight toward his front foot. He only does it with this one foot--the left tracks straight. And he seems to be worse at slower speeds--trot versus extended trot and canter. That would explain the tension in his hind end, the choppiness of his trot. She then worked on him for an hour or more and he was feeling so mellow. She agreed that he needs to be worked more consistently so he can keep those arthritic joints limber. I do have him on a glucosomine/chonDrOitin supplement. So maybe that will kick in too. Anyway, I have made a pact with myself (and now all of you are witnesses to it) that I will ride at least 5 days a week--early in the morning (I can't take the heat). Thanks again!
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 6:34 pm:
My horse sounds very similar to both of yours! Lori, do you have a loong qh too? My horse starts off VERY stiff, as I actually mentioned in another post. I find that I am always so afraid to do "too much" with my hands, because I have always been taught to use only leg and seat. But I think I may need to do more flexing of his head and neck. I too am going to let him warm up long and low. Jack LOVES to travel like that. The serpentines sound good too. I try to let him eat as many things as possible with the bit in his mouth (avoiding a choking situation!), to get him to tolerate it more. I think that the grazing we do helps somewhat...
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 9:10 pm:
Gwen, it's interesting you mentioned "loong qh". My guy is pretty short coupled. Sometimes I wonder if he's too short through his back. I haven't thought of allowing him to graze with the bit. Somewhere I developed the idea that that was the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not eat with the bit in thy mouth." But, I suppose it's not that bad after all as long as the horse doesn't take advantage.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 6:30 am:
Oh! I thought you had said that he was long. ooopsies! Sorry! I know, I grew up thinking that it was horrible to let them eat with a bit in their mouth. But I guess there are worse things, right? And my horse is a worry wart, so I think making the bit not so larger-than-life may help him to relax A BIT.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 12:14 pm:
Vicki, I forgot to mention that at a halt I will also ask for giving to the bit all the way to my boot(John Lyons style); hips over, shoulder over, I think doing a variety of these exercises not only keep the horses body supple but the mind as well.
Sometimes I think we get stuck in you only do that in wester/ do taht exercise if you ride english I combine all the exercises, I have no fear of the horse getting confused about what I want her to do because she is much better at reading my body language than I am at even knowing what cue I am giving. (did that make sense?)
The head low exercise I was describing is much lower than long and low typically is. This exercise calls for the head to be perhaps a foot off the ground, when i first saw it I thought huh! a peanut roller? but it is an exercise only, it was difficult for me to learn to do but it really seems to have made a difference.
My mare also had several chiro appointments. There were several things going on with her that I had to learn about and figure out how to handle.
Steep learning curve but learning just makes the riding better.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 12:31 pm:
Gwen, my mare is a med length wb. I don't like to let the horses eat with the bit mostly because once you start they will want to keep doing it.
Did you come from a western background? I did and learning how to maintain contact with my mares mouth has been very difficult. I was a die hard only use rein if they don't listen to your seat and legs.
Tactful contact is hard to learn and maintain, at least for me, but now that I am learning it I am seeing some advantages.
Correct contact shouldn't be any more uncomfortable than holding someones hand.
You can change the pressure in your hand very slightly and because there was contact already even a slight change is noticed.
So it is with the reins and mouth,when things are going well I can 'give' with the reins which amounts to a relaxing of my hands or I can take which is a tightening of my fingers, I can use my finger on the rein ( or both reings)to 'talk' to the horse. Of course it is not always so pretty but it is the goal.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 1:47 pm:
Lori, I love how you compare constant contact to holding hands, it is exactly how I have thought it should and can be. I had a mare with a very soft mouth and that is how it was with us. She responded to my lightest touch on the reins and if she got nervous I could calm her by twitching my fingers in a walking cadence. She was 33yrs old when she passed on April 16th. I have her daughter and granddaughter.
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 1:56 pm:
Vicki,
Is your horse's mouth dry inside? Or just dry around the outside of the bit?
I've seen both extremes, one mare of mine doesn't generate much moisture and one is like a run away washing machine, but they are both soft to the bit. I'd be more concerned about softness than moisture, remember they are all individuals
I have a KK Ultra ring snaffle and a lot of my horses favor that alloy, but it comes at a steep price.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 2:43 pm:
Alden--I think his mouth is pretty dry inside and out. It could be that that's just the way he is--I was just wondering because many horses slobber and foam so much and it is supposed to be a desired thing.
One thing I forgot to mention that my friend advised. She really stressed the importance of stretching my horse before I get on. Especially, stretches of the back legs (since that's where his arthritis seems to show up)--up to a 90 degree angle at the hock and then back and out straight (you have to really trust your horse here). He seemed to enjoy it. She has a book with illustrations coming out soon so I hope to get a copy of that. The front legs come up at the knee and then stretched forward and down slowly. Another one she showed me is a stretch down and to one side--nose to outside of left front foot for instance stretching across and down. I do lots of stretches while mounted too--his head around as far as I can entice him with a treat. He's much better to the left than the right. We did a lot of stretches today before I got on him and he was actually pretty good. We had a lovely workout.
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Member:
chrism
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
I've been told it is better and healthier for the horse to do stretches after a bit of warmup (say on the lunge) or after massage or even after your workout.
I was told that stretching without warming the muscles can be hard on them.
I've also been told to stretch within the normal range of motion. Exaggerated stretches were not recommended.
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Friday, Jun 15, 2007 - 10:09 pm:
Hmm, Christine. I have never heard that, but not to say that it isn't so. I always hear about the importance of people stretching before exercise so it seemed logical to me to do that for my horse too. I don't believe I make him stretch beyond what is comfortable for him. I don't force it. I'll have to explore that further. Thanks
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 16, 2007 - 8:07 am:
I have also heard that their muscles need to be somewhat warm when you stretch them.
Interestingly, I switched my horse from a sprenger loose ring to a plain ole' full cheek, and he is much more responsive to the new bit. I am thinking he got "dead" to the other one...
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 16, 2007 - 11:58 pm:
Gwen, I used to notice that my mare, Sugar would always be hyper responsive to any new bit. I don't know if it was her reaction to the bit, or me being very aware of the new feel, maybe I was better with my hands knowing that it was a new effect?
I used to rotate between two bits just to keep that feel. I now ride her bitless--Dr. Cook's Bitless Bridle. We don't have any bit issues anymore. Love it!
But I realize you can't always show bitless.
I simply came to the conclusion that she was so much happier without any bit.
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Member:
halln5
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 3:29 pm:
I talked to the horse "masseuse" this morning and asked her about warming up before stretching (not that I didn't believe you guys, I just wanted clarification). She agreed with you all but mentioned that since my horse is turned out (as opposed to being stalled most of the time) and that I do walk him before stretching and mounting and that I don't exaggerate the stretch or force anything, that the stretching is ok before work. Does that sound reasonable? She also recommended stretching after work.
I, too, have had the experience of my horse responding really well to a new bit--for a while. My question is "Why are you required to use a bit in order to show if the horse does everything you ask with no bit?" That's been something I've been curious about for a long time. Why, if a western horse is started in a snaffle and goes beautifully, do you have to go to a curb bit in order to show as it gets older. Dennis? Why, if an English horse goes well with no bit, do you have to put a bit in it's mouth in order to show.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 6:52 pm:
the prevailing belief that proper responses to the bit are the epitome of training.. it takes a lot of skill to get a horse to truly go correctly in a more "severe" bit (which, in the hands of an experienced horseman is more gentle than a gentle bit in inexperienced hands)... this is why upper level dressage horses are ridden in a double bridle, even tho the best riders work the horse almost entirely off the bridoon and the curb rarely touched...
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