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  Discussion on Ground manners - are these behaviours always considered bad manners or disrespectful?
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New Member:
Tommygee

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 5:21 am:

Hi, I'm an adult beginner rider / first horse owner of a 15yr old Arab gelding who's got what i feel a lovely even temperment (obviously cheeky at times). He does two things that I would like to get feedback on.

1. I've found that when I lead him in hand outside the confines of his large paddock (doing my basic learning stuff)- he at times gets a little excited & playful & nibbles at my leading hand with his lips &/or teeth. It does'nt come across as aggressive & he maintains a cool walk beside me. As i feel this behaviour is more playful than anything, I usually respond by gently trying to catch his lip with my thumb & continuing along with our walk without making a fuss or giving eye contact.

Is this actually bad manners or disrespect???

2. While I'm at it... is it bad on my behalf to allow my boy to scratch/rub his face against me? He mainly wants to do this when I enter the paddock. Does this mean that he indeed has little respect for me? Are there times when it is OK for him to enjoy a soft rub against me - I know I would enjoy something softer than a tree to have a rub against.
Thanks }}
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 5:48 am:

THese are not always agressive behavior but you need to realize that the origin of many aggressive behaviors is play behavior. They should be discouraged for safety reasons.
DrO
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 8:15 am:

Christine ... It is my opinion that ground manners are the root of all to come. Your horse needs to learn to respect and trust all about you. I feel that biting and nibbling, although not always agresssive must not be tolerated as it can become very dangerous. I will not accept even a minor nibble. As for the scratching and rubbing, I don't want my horse to think I am a scratching post but I do want to enjoy and share loving rubs and petting. I think the important thing is that I do it on my terms, not on the horse's. It is common for a horse to want to rub its head on you when you dismount after a ride, for whatever reason. Some think this is a show of affection, but probably just a way to scratch an itch. I will discipline for this, and then return the affection in a way that makes it clear to my horse that it is my idea. I love these horses, but they are just too big and strong to let them set the ground rules. Soon they will crowd me on the lead and just simply push me out of the way when they want. I think the key to success is and always will be respect and trust, whether on the ground or in the saddle. The horse should respect you as the "alpha" leader and trust that he will not be hurt as a result of this respect. I will always respect the horse as a powerful and truly magnificant animal.
Member:
Aewheele

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 8:57 am:

I have similar questions regarding my horse's behavior. When I lead him around, he likes to walk behind me instead of at my side. I discourage this for obvious reasons. If he spooks, he could run me over. As he walks behind me, he likes to nibble on my hair. It makes me laugh, but I discourage that as well. But is it a sign of disrespect? Even though he is mostly very well mannered, do I have to concern myself that he doesn't respect me as the
'alpha' horse?
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 9:39 am:

Andrea ... I think that maybe we are "hard balling" the term "disrespect". It does not have to be a blatent and in your face type of behaviour, simply a matter of doing it their way instead of ours. You are correct in the danger of leading behind you instead of to the side, but I assure you that the hair nibbling can be even more dangerous when he decides to take a big bite and run, not that he would do that, but he sure could. I look at the respect and trust issue very simply. Responding to my cues, and respecting my space. Again, aggressive behaviour is not a pre-requisite to disrespect. It's no different that if you ask your child to sit down during church services and he would rather dance around in the pews. May not hurt anyone, but certainly not the response you're looking for. And you know .... if not corrected, won't be long before he's hangin' from the ceiling fan! Sooner or later it's gonna be a problem. Better address it early, and often.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 9:42 am:

Hi, all,
The basic idea of horsemanship is that the horse does not realise how much weaker or slower you are, or there goes your ambition of running things your way.
The only way I know to prevent them from finding out is not allowing them to explore that territory. I believe a horse should never be allowed to take initiative in playing with or around humans.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 10:07 am:

Christos is right on here ..... I have a perfect example of my own .... and I should know better. We have a 4yo paint gelding who was a home foal, and everybodys buddy. Very loveable and personable. Whenever I was in the paddock, he was on my shoulder and my wife and I treated him like a baby. When I put a tool on the ground, he would move it. If we bent over he would nudge us .... lots of laughs and some great videos. He is now a strong and powerful 4yo in training. If you are between him and where he wants to be, he just pushes you over or walks right over you. If you ask him to move over, he say's "I don't want to". Not mean in any way, but I am sure you would agree, "disrespectful". We are making progress with all our ground work, but the work is 10 times harder and results a long time in coming ... and it is our fault .. He is just being what he has always been. I have never done this before or since, but I let this little guy get to me ... and now am paying for it. You have got it Christos .... play with em' and love em' to death, but always on our terms. Horses are just too big and strong to let them be in charge of playtime, or training time. If they find out they are, prepare yourself for a long journey.
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 10:10 am:

What do you do to discipline these behaviors? I've been using a vocal reprimand, but is that enough?

On this same topic, my horse is pinning his ears and bucking when I begin lunging him. He is cooped up more because of winter, and is being fed grain three times daily to bulk up his weight. I believe he is just "blowing off some steam", but is this bad behavior? I've been letting him get it out of his system, and after he wears out a bit he relaxes and becomes focussed. If I should discipline him for this behavior, how should I do that?

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 10:48 am:

I may be asking for it ---- but my relationship with my horse is such that he knows what he can get away with and what he can't. He very rarely tests these boundaries -- now that I wrote that I'm sure I'll get tested tonight (;).

That being said, he is allowed to rub on me while in the paddock if he's itchy - very rare and he will get a good looking at if this occurs. If it's after a ride, I don't allow it, but get a curry and take care of his itchy's that way. We have an understanding, granted it's taken four years -- but we're both happy (;) I get the loving nuzzles and he gets his favorite scratches and treats. I found that with this type of relationship he can tell me if something's bothering him and I can tend to it before it escalates.

He knows what he needs to do if he has a halter on or not. There is no question. I'm very lucky.

Linda,

Is there something else other than grain you can feed him to bulk up his weight? I personally don't think it would be fair to reprimand him for "blowing off steam" if he's getting a lot of grain -- especially if he calms down after he's done. I would think it normal that big, powerful animals cooped up with lots of grain would need to blow off a little steam.

Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:14 am:

I disagree with the grain excuse, Aileen.
I have been working with horses that range from massive stallions to downright crazy tough little things, all of them on generous grain.
They CAN control their energy even fresh after a week's rest. Do not grant them the excuse. Teach them that the only fun way to get rid of the steam is to put it at work after they are quietly tacked and warmed up.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:23 am:

i have to chime in here with Dennis... i have a coming 5 year old , 1400 pound BABY that i spoiled... he is disrespectful to a point of being dangerous... and its ALL MY FAULT... i have treated this 'kid' like a back yard pet and now am paying for it... simple things like putting on and off a blanket has now become a huge game to him but dangerous for me , the little human in his way..

i am now taking steps to correct this but it is sooo much harder at this size then if i had been in control when he was a real baby... my others are not anything like him... they have learned from the birth I AM IN CONTROL....

on the lunging issue... a cowboy once told me that we teach our horses to buck and it starts on the lunge line... so now if i have a fresh horse on the line, i yank him off balance firmly and send him forward at my command not his...
* would be interested in others training techniques on this...

be firm and fair.. Ann
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:33 am:

I love Dominique Barbier's comment about bucking on the longe line . . . . he says, "Ahhhh . . . . there's a little bit of happiness :-) . . . I'd rather the horse feel it now than when I'm up on top."

I think we have to gauge the attitude of our horses and learn to understand what reactions come from pain, disobedience or just plain joy at being horses . . .

If a horse has chances to buck in a pasture, that is one thing when he is then put on a longe line, but if your horse is stalled and only gets out for longeing and riding, I think we have to be gracious and expect some horsey actions when we first longe them . . .

As to Linda's question about whether verbal discipline is enough or not . . . yes, Linda, the verbal discipline is fine if it gets the results you want. If not, you may need to combine the verbal cue with body language or a physical correction . . . but usually, once a horse has learned that the consequences of his misbehavior results in a physical "sting," the verbal cue will be sufficient to dissuade him in the future.
Holly
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:37 am:

Linda .. This is a tough one because we all know the cold weather and lack of exercise tends to make a horse want to buck and run and generally blow off steam. My rule is this ... if I turn out in pasture or paddock, let em' run and buck and have a good time. In my territory, round pen, longe line, halter, whatever, it's gotta be my rules. Ann's point is accurate and her technique is good. I don't know about others, but I tend to ride without lunging or round penning or anything else to blow off steam before I ride. If I'm goin' on a 10 mile ride, I will want that energy there, not left at home in the pen. Also, I have no desire to ride a bucking horse any more ... at 16 it was fun, at 50 its a risk I don't need ... I don't heal as fast anymore. Since I began seriously applying these respect drills, I very seldom get the first buck out of my young ones when I start them ... and that suits me fine. I agree with Ann ... don't teach em' to buck ...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:53 am:

I'm with Holly...

Christos, I guess I was responding as if it were my horse...because he IS a firecracker when he has a lot of grain - now he doesn't so it's not an issue. But since he doesn't get much turnout due to slippery muddy pastures, he is allowed to throw in some bucks on the longe line. I don't believe I'm "teaching" him to buck, since he rarely bucks when being ridden. Each horse has it's own personality...so it must depend. It works for my guy tho!

ps...If he does get in a few bucks when longeing...he **gets** to go forward as fast as I want him too (;)
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 11:58 am:

I fully agree with Dennis here,
Though I do not mind bucking from horses I know, it would be a very unpleasant surprise for the occasional guest and as such it is out of the question.
I think that the best way to knock such attitude off is to just make them work a bit more, nice and calmly. Horses are masters in avoiding work, they'd quit breathing if they could, just to avoid those three fast rounds.
You'll see it in their face. Bucking? Who's bucking?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 12:08 pm:

Christos...do you know my horse?

That's EXACTLY the expression I get

ps...that would be the only way I'd "discipline" him...so to speak. and yes, he is spoiled....but he wouldn't be if he wasn't such a good boy.
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 12:41 pm:

Another addition to what some people have said about spoilt horses. A girl on my yard bought a youngster (Welsh cob)which was her 'little project' and she also started a behaviourist course. She is into 'natural horsemanship' which as far as I can see entails allowing the horse to express his personality, whenever he wants! I am all for a horse having character but it also has to have respect for you.

This girl was so intent on wanting this horse to like her she was loathe to punish it for unwanted behaviour, and as a result three years down the line this horse literally decides what it wants to do and does it. It is a shame as he is a very friendly character, but the words 'in your face' just about sum him up!

She seems absolutely unable to prevent it going where it wants to go, ie if it decides it wants to go in the tack room when she is on board, it just goes in the tack room! On a ride if it likes the look of someone's driveway it just walks up it (it nearly walked into the local shop). I have tried standing in front of this horse as it walks towards me and it would just walk right over me if I didn't move out the way! She also seems unable to stop it barging out of the field gate when it wants to, although I'm sure if the gate opened onto a road she would be more careful.

The whole yard has to be proofed specifically against her horse, even though I have three of my own!

I am amazed that a supposed 'equine behaviourist' allows her animal to act in this way - but then don't they say teachers' children are always the worst behaved??
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 1:02 pm:

I never let my horse buck on the lunge either. He can buck all he wants in the feild. If he bucks I send him forward faster after a little tug on the lunge. He is so good on the lunge now I can make him change gaits back and forward after only one or 2 strides. He needs to listen to me on the ground as well as in the saddle. Telling your horse what is not allowed to do gives your horse respect of you. They trust you more if they know you are there to tell them what they can and cant do. I have never even raised my voice to my horse. I would never hit him. You dont need to be mean to get respect.
Just my thoughts.
Katrina
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 1:05 pm:

Well, Aileen, I know one horse...
A beautiful, small, fine headed bay mare, much looking like an Arab cross, that is all horses in one!
Such a blessing and curse, oh Lord...


Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 1:25 pm:

Behaviourist my foot, Gill,
A horse NEEDS to feel you stronger and firm so when you're around it doesn't have to worry about wolves and gremlins and "there, there, don't you see?"
It is lack of sensitivity to let a horse "be a horse" in our complicated environment. Horses simply do not understand it.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 1:27 pm:

Christine, when your horse starts his little nibble on your hand, push her away, move it quickly and give him a little slap on the chest. Not his face or head area. My girl likes to lean, lazy horse. And at times after a ride mine loves to use me as a scratching post. If caught off guard i could tumble, so to end that i would try to have a towel ready after i dismounted. She would immediately turn her head and rub. I started to push her away with a verbal NO, with a slap to the chest if unheeded, then wait a bit, then started rubbing her face with the towel. Now if i have the towel she knows we can rub. If i don't she doesn't even ask.

Also, I would have told you last month that i could just open the paddock gate and my girl would slowly saunter in. Instead of properly holding her lead, walking her in, turning her to face me, and then letting her go. She knows that, I know better than to just let her go. But i get lazy. This is a 20 year old who i have owned for 10 years... I know everything about her... <wrong>.. she almost kicked me one night letting her go. One of her happy to be alive moments... I would have sworn up and down that she would never have done that. But, it was a big OH MY on my part. I failed to be proper and she could have killed me. I could feel the swoosh of her kick near my face... Yikes!

Same goes for the tired owner who just wants to pick up those few chips while the horse is still in the stall... I have done that too! and while i could swear to you that my girl would never be disrespectful... you just never know.

I don't necessarily believe that saying, "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" but i do know you really should never let them do something that poses any potential danger to you. Nibbling, rubbing, letting out to pasture, leading, cleaning etc. because just that one BAD day for them could be your REALLY BAD day...

What does everyone say about pawing? To me this is a big disrespectful item. I know she isn't hurt. And she hates to take a bath or stand tied when its feed time. She paws, I know to say get me off of this thing.

joj
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 3:25 pm:

Joj,

I think pawing only becomes a nuissance if you make a big deal about it. Just ignore it, show her that this is not a way to get your attention, and she'll probably quit it soon.
If it has become an established vice, strapping up the pawing leg so that she has to stand on three legs for 5 minutes or so every time she paws will probably work.

What do you mean by picking chips while the horse is in the stall? You are supposed to be able to do anything while the horse is in the stall. Mucking out, repairs, jumping around for no apparent reason, whatever you feel like. And the horse should be taught to move flat against the opposite wall anytime you ask and stay there until you are done with whatever you're doing.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 4:54 pm:

joj
A towel is a good idea. My horses also likes to rub on me on riding breaks. I stop them and scratch with my hand which gets all sweaty and dirty. I will try to remember to bring a rubbing towel.

On pawing. I dont know if its disrespectful, but it annoys me. I dont let them paw and dont let my dogs lick or scratch themselves in my presence just because I dont like it.
Member:
Tommygee

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 7:19 pm:

Sorry it took a bit for me to respond back. It appears that I'm in slumberland while you guy's on the other side of the globe are awake & sending in your feedback.

Thanks all for your input on my boy's behaviour. I pretty much knew what your responses would be & i do agree. The main thing i did get out of this is to have my boy respond or do certain things when I initiate it's an appropriate time to be doing them. I also realise that the respect the horse gives on the ground will be the same as that given when I eventually get up in the saddle.

Yes I have already wised up to holding a towel up to indicate "yep, it's time to rub your face". I just need to break him out of the habbit of trying to rub on me as soon as i enter the paddock so I can get into his shed to grab the towel. Redirecting his head isn't working so i guess I'll be entering his paddock with my arms flapping like a chook. Reackon it will look pretty funny to the distant on-looker.

I'm glad I found this site especially as it sounds that it's members have a few years of age up their sleeve coupled with valuable equine experience. By no means think I'm being disrespectful, on the contrary I'm extremely respectful & grateful.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 3:49 am:

I think that the stall is one of the more dangerous places to be. Its just the last place i would feel trusting in such a small enclosure. A nibble or nudge in such a small confined space is just an accident waiting to happen.





Member:
Megster

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 9:10 am:

I too have a horse that took me by suprise - very disrespectfully yesterday. My normally sweet mare, decided, as I was fastening the front straps of her rug to whip around and bite me on the arm. She hates having her rugs fastened so I am always considerate and take care that she is comfortable before I leave her. She usually gives warning signs that she's not happy having this done but has never before made contact with her teeth. If she pulls faces at me, I firmly tell her 'no' and push her head away. When she stands politely I reward her verbally and give her a pat to which she puts her ears out to the side and starts licking. Yesterday, I was taken completely by suprise and today have the bruise to show for it - teeth shaped!! As soon as she did it, I responded by immediately turning face on to her, making myself bigger, raising my voice and waving my arms at her to back her off. She ran backwards right away from me, visibly not liking what was happening and then stood in the corner looking very humble. Each time she tried to come to me, I sent her away again. She stood for a few minutes longer pretending to look out yonder at something interesting (she's very willful my horse!) but obviously wondering when to approach me again, but then didn't. I then left her alone and went home. Today, she has been very sweet and is keen to be in favour. However, I feel guilty that I did the wrong thing and have not necessarily had the impact that I want to, ie to show her who is boss and ensure that she doesn't do it again. Although she is mostly sweet natured, she is the alpha female on the yard and I have to be aware of maintaining my position with her at all times. We have done lots of consistent groundwork and this horse follows me around like a puppy in the pen. We have a good relationship so I'm not sure why she would wish to bite me. Any tips on how best to deal with this would be appreciated.
Sarah
Member:
Roboski

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 9:46 am:

Hi, All
Dennis, our almost 4 year old behaves exactly as your gelding, and for the same reason. The lady we bought him from raised him and basically treated him like a pet dog. Even played hide & seek with him, involving letting him chase her around trees. Yikes! He's a cutie and I can imagine it's easy to fall into that trap with babies. He's slowly improving but I constantly marvel at the difference between him and our other three. It is as you say, not a matter of malice so much as a lack of education.

And, Joj, I agree with you that it only takes a second for disaster. Yeah, we SHOULD be able to pick stalls and flap arms if we want, but what if someone shoots a gun and the horse spooks....why take chances? I've come so close to being hurt a few times (hoof whistling past the head sounds familiar) because I relaxed the rules or was inattentive. And I always say it would have been my fault, not the horse. BTW I use the towel thing , too, and it sure keeps me from being mugged after a ride.

Since we're on the topic of behavior, has anyone else ever seen a new display of aggression toward people in a horse simply because of a change in the turnout partner? Our old Stoni was always low man but began picking on the new gelding so I changed his turnout partner to the pony mare. He's become a disrespectful bully! I have to snatch him up quick on all sorts of new nasties, like rushing the gates and grabbing food, making faces at me at feeding time. And he pushes her around, too! I wonder if being a little higher in the pecking order since he has a girl to boss around has gone to his head? Might need to throw him in with Magic a few times to straighten him out again! Herd dynamics, wow.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 10:12 am:

Sarah ... OK ...here goes ... I'm setting myself up for persecution here, but here it is ........
"BITING" ... the one and only thing that I will strike a horse for ... no weapons, never close to the face, and in no way that could cause injury ... I will unload with all I got for just a few seconds and the horse has no problem realizing I am serious and very angry ...
Biting is just too serious and dangerous to play with... It is the ultimate aggressive move with one intention .. hurting us ...
My reaction must be immediate and intense, and then over quickly. I know this may not be "popular" and make no mistake, I truly love my horses but biting can not be tolerated in any way shape or form.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 10:26 am:

I agree with you Dennis. For biting, I slap my horse for three seconds-- no longer --and yell and scream and make myself big with all I've got on his neck or chest. In almost five years I've only had to do it 4 times.

As Dennis said it must be immediate -- within 3 seconds -- or the horse won't understand what he's done to deserve the punishment. If you miss that window, there's no sense in pursuing the punishment.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 11:08 am:

I also agree with you Dennis. When I got my alpha mare she was very bad to bite. I had no reservations about striking back. It took a few more than 4 times for me, but she no longer even thinks about biting (humans).
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 11:18 am:

I would do the same and have in the past. John Lyons even advocated what you say Dennis. 3 seconds of all out letting the horse know that Biting is not acceptable. Ever. But the most important thing is you can't wait. Timing is everything otherwise the horse loses the lesson.

jojo
Member:
Megster

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 11:46 am:

Sharon, my mare's personality changed considerably after I bought her 12 months ago. Prior to me owning her she had two different homes, one she was in for 7 years and the other for 6 months. In the first home, where she was bred, she was always the underdog and has a history of being bullied by bigger horses in that home. She actually has a scar on her chest from being forced through a barbed wire fence trying to get away which I think is really sad. She was the smallest horse and lived with mares and geldings. In the second home, she also lived in a mixed group, was the smallest horse (she herself is 16hands so the others were big) and was known to be submissive in the field. At her home with me, she lives in a field with two 26 year old mares (ponies) and the boys are in the adjoining field. She is the biggest horse now and exerts her dominance over all of them. She has her favourite, one of the boys, and even though he's in the next field she will assert herself instantly if she feels that another horse is muscling in on her friend. Its a complete personality transplant but goes to show that a change in field mates does make a huge difference. The new living conditions have also sent her hormones haywire and she now cycles throughout the winter and suffers from occassional seizures that have been found to be hormone related. Problem is, I dont think she knows how to handle this new found status all of the time and can appear to be quite confused and frustrated sometimes. She's also, although an independant horse, quite insecure with other horses and tends to change her pair bond with the two mares frequently, which I guess stems from her past. I dont' think we should underestimate the impact of changing their companions.

Thanks all for the advice on the biting issues. The thing I'm still not sure about though, is once I've made myself clear (using methods described), then what do I do? Should I immediately then go on to reward good behaviour, or should I leave her alone a while? Or what? I'm keen not to confuse her.
Sarah}}}
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 11:57 am:

Maybe try standing or crouching sideways to her -- not facing her straight on -- no eye contact...works for me (;)

I'm sure others will have more ideas.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 12:10 pm:

Yes, Sharon,
I have seen several boys acting stupid when a new girl arrives. Why would horses be different?

Dennis,
I agree with you, but I would like to add a few things here. Hitting back for biting or kicking is absolutely legitimate IMO, even a few minutes or hours later, whenever one puts himself together again.
Did you understand why he bit or kicked you? Was he careful where he landed that hoof? Why is it then mandatory that he understands why you beat him? Why hold back and aim well when you just want to break that shovel on his head? What is his excuse?
Timing the correction, being gentle, patient and forgiving, absolutely applies, but to NEW HORSES ONLY. If you own a horse for, say, a year, and he attempts biting or kicking, grab that shovel and straighten things out or, I think, your life is in danger.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 2:35 pm:

Christos,
Of course that is your opinion, but I cant believe you said that its ok to wait an hour before repremanding. Its my opinion with horses and dogs and even young children that repremand needs to be swift. If you wait an hour, the offender has forgotten the event and it is important to associate the offense with the punishment.
Please do not take offence but why do you feel that timing, restraint and patience should apply only to a new horse? Even if you feel the horse should know better it would not be ok to wack it in the head an hour later. To me that sounds like revenge not correction or training. I have heard several say, and I feel this way also, that they never stop learning from their horses. Dosent it seem then that a horse never stops learning from their humans? Even an old well trained horse may need a little refresher course now and again.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 3:52 pm:

Oh Christos, tell me it isn't so! Perhaps you are thinking of a specific instance with a rank horse that is continually a danger...??

I've seen much research that horses/dogs/etc, can only understand what they've done wrong if the punishment is immediate. If they don't understand, why punish so severely???
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 4:00 pm:

Colleen, I totally agree. I think when we gauge our reaction to a horse in personal terms by assuming they think and feel the way we are able to, we aren't modifying behavior, just making ourselves feel better by taking out our frustration/hurt feelings/broken arm/sore toes on the horse. He has no idea once the moment has passed what we are doing and why if we all of a sudden take a whack at him...it's very selfish behavior on our part. I am no expert on horses (the main thing they've taught me is that I'll never be able to learn in a lifetime all there is to know about them) but punishment without an immediate, well-timed connection to the crime is futile. And it's mean. I know a woman who barrel races with with a fiendish obsession for winning. When her horse does not perform well, say he hits a barrel (her fault usually), she will leave him in his stall for hours fully tacked with his head and neck flexed to the side, tied to the saddle. Yep, that's going to fix the problem alright. One assumption as a horse owner that's always safe to make is that they aren't going to act/react as expected. We owe it to them (and ourselves) to be as consistent as we can with discipline, but at the right time.
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 4:55 pm:

Biting is unacceptable and even a playful 'easy' pretend-nip will get a rapid-fire hard smack and loud, intimidating verbal reprimand. One of our colts was really an oral kind of guy and though we knew he was playing, the standard had to be set, no teeth, ever. As he matured he learned and accepted this rule, now he (and the rest of the horses) on occaision are allowed to do the nuzzle thing, rubbing the upper lip back and forth on your hand, shoulder, etc.; or occaisionally just barely 'holding' the edge of your hand with their lips only. Of course, that is a risk, but after all these years I recognise their moods, and I trust my judgement on the issue. I would never recommend allowing that with a horse with whom you've had little personal experience. Neither would I with anyone who considers himself a beginner, even with his own horse. Safety is Number One.

Regarding a horse that willfully (or negligently)steps into your space: You don't have to be mean, but that is another thing that must not be allowed. You must always be in a training mode, it must become second nature. That way the horse understands and is confident in what to expect from you. To correct this, I would focus on teaching him to stand and lead properly.

The way I teach them to respect my space does depend on the horse, but is the same basic procedure with all, just varying in degree of emphasis with the aids. The single, most important thing that they must learn, is to actively focus their attention on you and you alone. Deviation of attention, regardless of the source, is not allowed. Normally it takes little effort if you are alert to every tiny movement made which is outside of what you want. You correct them instantly with the least amount of negative reinforcement that is required, instantly followed by a heartfelt 'Good Boy', positive reinforcement, when he is correct.

To begin, I teach him to stand quietly, facing me, a lead rope length away from me for as long as I want. I start by slowly backing away from him, shaking the lead in a sideways snakelike motion if he attempts to follow or move. A sensitive horse may respond to a very light shake of the lead rope and a small, firm 'no' if he steps toward you. A less sensitive horse may require a firmer shake or repeated shaking of the lead. (This is something you can quickly figure out by his initial response. If you err on the overdone side, ie loud or harder shaking of the lead, it does not hurt the animal and at least you are assured of having his full attention.) It is surprising how easily they learn to stand still with you that far away. Even the fidgity ones.

Training to lead, I think of as being similar to training a dog to heel. The horse stays in his proper position to you at all times unless asked to do otherwise. He keeps pace with you whatever speed that is, stops when you stop, backs up when you do, all without any resistance.

The enthusiastic 'kiss-kiss' or 'clik-clik(?)' sound urges them forward and your stride determines the speed. If they are very reluctant to go faster, sometimes I'll use a medium length dressage whip in the hand opposite my lead line hand pointed behind me and toward the horses' hind quarter as a cue to go faster, or to stay properly lined up with me.

Stopping your pace means whoa, whether or not you say it, but I always say it when we are at the beginning. If I step backward toward the horse, then he must also take a step backward. (They like this game.) My step alone signals this, but at the beginning, I say 'back' and then shake the lead if I get no response. When they get the idea(doesn't take long), they enjoy this. I think it is a game to them and it really teaches them to focus on you and rely on your instruction, very handy for you!

They really don't resent these rules once they've learned them. Like Christos said, they feel safe, knowing you are directing things. They trust you to protect them. Of course you have to be diligent in keeping them out of harms way or may lose this trust.

It goes without saying, that these are commonly used training methods that, in my opinion, work well.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 5:05 pm:

Well, I say again...
Biting and kicking from a horse that knows you is not just a mistake or misbehaving, it is a direct threat to your life, you understand it or not.
I am not thinking of one specific instance, Aileen.
I have seen a horse running with a kid in it's teeth. I have heard human bones snapping under hooves at least four times. And three times I have seen people taking off from the ground. A friend of mine lost his left ear last month, to the teeth of his cudly stallion whom he owns for seven years.
If you think your horse will never do such things or that you can "sweet talk" it out of biting or kicking, go ahead.
Anybody wondering wether my horses love me? You'd be surprised...
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 5:45 pm:

I hope I am not encouraging harsh treatment as a training aid with what I've said.
I will never punish a horse for not performing well or for making mistakes. Only patience and communication does the trick there.
I believe, for instance, that a rider is entitled to a whip and spurs only after winning three official events.
I've always been content with whatever a horse has to offer for the moment. Except bites and kicks...
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 5:47 pm:

Hello Christos,

I am SURE that your horses love you, I can tell by your other posts.

I KNOW I could never sweet talk my way out of biting and kicking...but I also know that I am taking care of it in the manner he understands. Even though he does need a refresher course about once a year -- it's not with a shovel.

I shall agree to disagree with you on this one Christos. No hard feelings... I hope.
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 5:54 pm:

Hmm, how did I get in here, I guess I thought the discussion was about pushy horses that maybe needed a little remedial ground training. Christos, you sound a like my Dad used to on this subject. You must be around a lot of rank stock. The average horse over here is probably over-domesticated, most of them quite reasonable if handled sensibly. What conditions do you have in Greece that so many of the horses are so wild? I do understand there will be some problems with stallions and mares in heat. I imagine your horses love you because you are the leader. I doubt that they test you too far because your overall technique appears very good. Still, I feel they will learn little that's helpful from delayed punishment.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 5:57 pm:

Hard feelings? Not me, Aileen. For no people and no horse.

Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 6:13 pm:

I grew up next to the race track of Athens, Jan, so what I have seen is out of, I don't know, may be two thousand horses. Not so bad.
Now I live in the countryside, and, as life brings it sometimes, it is the main breeding area for the track. Some 1000 horses within 20km of home.
This is also the area where most retired racehorses end up. And as horsemanship is, well, not so advanced in my country and the new trend is "I own a horse", you can imagine the situation...
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 7:04 pm:

Well, that explains a lot. Did you chose to live where you are now or was it just good luck that brought you to live in your area of high horse concentration? Do you give lessons to these new horse owners? Sounds like they could use the help.

Jan
Member:
Rjbraun

Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 7:23 pm:

Christos ,Bully for you .You are 100% right if the horse takes over your in deep sh--.You are the boss and do not take any crap from them .Yes I am from the old school .I do not belive in hurting or mistreatment but correct them when bad .
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 8:21 am:

Sheer luck, Jan.
No, I do not give lessons. Apart from the fact that I do not believe myself qualified to do so and the lack of necessary time, nobody here believes that riding or horsemanship in general can be taught. Or that studying a little bit would be of any help.
People just think that if they love their horse and spend a lot of time sitting on it, things will work out. And if it doesn't work out, they damp the horse in a barren field and say that they just enjoy watching it running free, and after all that's what they bought it for.
Member:
Megster

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 8:25 am:

Here I am, asking for help again....

Since receiving the teeth marks on my arm I have become accutely aware of behaviours that perhaps I had tolerated and just attributed to being mareish before. My mare, every morning when I go to put her out in the field, is irritable. I approach her at the stable door and her attitude is variable from one minute to the next. I can see 10 different expressions in the space of 5 minutes. One second she is pleased to see me, chewing and licking etc, and then a minute later comes the one I don't like, which happens frequently, is the wrinkled mouth, ears back slightly, and turning her head quickly at me as if threatening to bite but not biting (doesn't show her teeth at all) that I'm sure many of you might recognise. She knows its bad as she moves her head away very quickly as if knowing she's in trouble. I think its just impatience or irritability but don't know how best to nip it in the bud. I feel I'm correcting her constantly which is emotionally exhausting, so I doubt what I'm doing can be very effective. I push her head away from me hard and say 'no' loudly. I then praise her when she approaches nicely but then her expression can change again in an instant. I'd be interested to know how any of you out there would deal with this. This behaviour is really starting to irritate me and I don't want to allow this attitude she has to continue and risk being bitten again. She doesn't do this at any other time of the day.
Sarah
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 8:37 am:

Christos--
I find your comments regarding the state of horsemanship in your area very sad considering the orignis of the classic text "On the Art of Horsemanship" Wasn't Xenophon from...Athens?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 9:26 am:

No, Terri, Athens is 300 Km away.
As ironically as life can be, Xenophon was living in this exact area (50Km range)when he wrote his text...
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 9:54 am:

Careful, Sarah !
A horse with ears back swinging its head fast sideways/ backwards as if to bite a fly off, means "go away", and she really means it, as far as I know. Many times a bite or a kick follows.
I do not think you can stop her doing this, it'd be like asking her not to swing her tail when she's annoyed.
Try to figure out why she doesn't want you there. She may not want to go out in the cold, for instance.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 10:10 am:

Hi Sarah,

When my horse does this, he is either uncomfortable in some way or is actually irritated at his horse buddy.Sometimes I interrupt a play fight which indeed can be dangerous for humans.

I reprimand him fully - he is NOT allowed to be aggressive in any way when I am with him. He KNOWS this, but still needs to be reminded every once in a while. Sometimes just the sight of a crop (when he's not getting the message with verbal reprimand - very rare) will stop this behavior.

Then what I do is put a halter on him and check him over carefully, including for signs of colic, ticks, bite marks, etc.

ps...he'll eat the crop ...so no, he's not afraid of it (;) he just knows I mean business.

Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 10:11 am:

Sarah ... I agree with Christos
This is not something you stop ... she is communicating with you which is good .... she's telling you she doesn't want to be bothered instead of just knockin' the .... out of you.
You still have the option to change her mind, which is what you are doing through your communication, but you don't want to try to stop her from telling you about it. This is just part of her wonderful personality.......
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 10:50 am:

Sarah: I went back to your earlier post and you mentioned that your mare had hormonal problems and occaisionally goes into seizures. Maybe you should read up on that in the literature available on this site if you havn't done so already. (I don't know anything, haven't needed it yet.) Maybe a hormone drug, ie Regumate, would help? Do you have other details of the hormonal problems she suffers? I, too would worry about her unpredictable aggressiveness, if absolutely sure nothing else is wrong physically, something must be done, she cannot treat you like another horse. Personally, I never tolerate even ear pinning toward me, especially if accompanied by other threatening behavior. You are right to be concerned. I think we could use advice from Holly Wood here. You might want to email her personally in case she is not reading this thread. It has gone on long and changed a bit. You might start a new thread within this subject.

Jan
Member:
Megster

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 1:35 pm:

Dennis, in some ways I am inclined to agree with you, that this is her personality and maybe mornings are just a bad time for her as she's not like it at any other time.

However, in response to your note Jan, I also agree that ear pinning isn't acceptable and there is no reason that she should treat me in this way. Its almost as if she's saying 'get out of my space' or getting frustrated because I'm not putting her out quickly enough. She wants no fuss or niceties first thing in the morning, just to get out of her stable - once out, she's fine. This doesn't explain the biting behaviour in relation to fastening the front of the rug the other day though.

Aileen made a comment about her horse play fighting and her sometimes getting in the way. I believe that my horse is jealous of the gelding who is stabled next door as when I approach her he peeps at her around the corner. They normally get along quite well but when I go in her stable, she stomps right over to the corner where he peeps and launches herself at him. She then comes back to me. It reads like jealousy to me.

I am as a precaution getting a chiropractor and physiotherapist out to see her shortly as I'm worried that something may be slightly 'out' given the occasional siezures she tends to have. I have read everything there is to read about siezures and hormones and I'm not sure there's anything else anyone could tell me. As she's nice to me the rest of the time I feel this is down to her being uncomfortable physically, or general irritability at that time of the day / or to having her rugs put on.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure who Holly Wood is? I'm quite new to the site....

Thanks for all of your mails, its reassuring to know that there is so much experience out there. I've had different horses on loan for years, always mares, and this one is as wonderful as the rest but certainly knows how to test me!
Thanks again.

Sarah
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 3:29 pm:

I'm still disturbed by Christo's post of Jan. 8 regarding punishment. I agree agressisve behavior must be met with punishment--even physical, but it must be immediate, not "minutes or even hours" later. At that point, it's just revenge, abuse, bullying and cruel. The horse can't associate the original behavior with the punishment after several seconds. In his mind, a delayed punishment is an unprovoked attack. Do this even once and you will never regain the trust of some horses. You may get his respect, but it will be based on fear and not trust, and that is a very shaky foundation. Do it often enough and you will create a fearful horse, and that is really dangerous. A fearful horse may become defensive enough to attack first and ask questions later. Like rewarding good behavior, punishing bad behavior succeeds or fails on the timing. Use of the shovel or other object is probably subjective, but using it on the head will creat more problems that it ever solves. Where is the outrage from board members I expected on this issue? And Jan, you're suggesting this man give lessons???? Christine, please, please, rent videos, read, read, read, go to clinics, work with trainers, and I assure you, no respected horseman will advocate punishment not immediately connected to the undesired behavior.
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 3:56 pm:

Julie
I agree except for the outrage part. Everyone has their own ways. Now I dont know if Christos really would use a shovel (I hope not), but It brought to mind an incident in which a man who bought a yearling from my cousin for some reason hit the colt with a 2 X 4 and put its eye out. Im no trainer, but with my horses a switch cut from a tree will put them in line. Heck, the sound a switch (or crop) makes puts them in line without having to lay hands on them.
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 4:01 pm:

I have to agree that I cannot see any point in punishing a horse for something it did minutes or hours ago - it simply cannot connect your actions with its misbehaviour and you will certainly not gain it's trust or respect in this way. Instead it will learn to be fearful and wary around you.

IMO behaviour like deliberate biting or kicking does warrant severe retribution, but it has to be immediate and after the event you should try and leave it at that and act normally around the horse. This is what he understands and how he would be treated in the herd.

What usually happens is that many humans lose their temper and then launch a prolonged attack on the horse to relieve their own anger, but it doesn't achieve anything from the horse's point of view apart from instilling fear and resentment.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 4:15 pm:

My response it immediate and intense, and then forgotten, unless the horse brings it up again. Don't hold a grudge. And, just so you know, I would DrOp the shovel first .....
AS far as punishment well after the fact .... worthless in my mind.
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 4:16 pm:

Julie: I do not agree with delayed punishment, as was stated in my post. I feel Christos was overboard on this one. However, if you read all his posts, he appears to be very sensible in all other areas and to love his horses. I am not the type to go into attack mode when I disagree with an opinion in a hypothetical case. There has been too much of that on this site already and there have been plenty of posts on this thread for a reader to get the picture without pursuing the negative endlessly.
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 4:21 pm:

Christine,

Your story sounds familiar. I have a dominant mare who requires firm (but fair) handling and zero tolerance for disrespectful behavior. I struggled with this quite a bit when I first got her, then got help from a trainer. In our case, several sessions in the round pen under professional guidance started to turn the situation around. I have a lot of fun with her now that we've sorted out the dominance thing. I recommend that you get some help. The problem with letting her continue her disrespectful behavior is that it tends to escalate. Biting you is pretty bad. What's next?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 4:55 pm:

Dear Julie,
You are rightly disturbed. That's not a pretty picture, and that's exactly why people that sell pretty pictures will never tell you about it.
I will insist. A horse that you own for a year kicking you or biting you is not bad behaviour, is life threatening dominance.
You are right, he will not associate the punishment with that particular kick an hour or a day later. But he will associate it with his dominant ideas and adjust accordingly.
Fearful? In this case, I wouldn't care. He better be fearful than dangerous. You'll deal with the fear when you'll have time.
Do it often? NO! If you feel like doing such things more than twice, whether you finally do it or not, that horse is not for your hands.
I used the shovel example more as a metaphor, though it's not so bad if it comes handy. It is a matter of taste. If you ask the horse, it prefers the shovel to shouting.
A horse will never forgive unfair treatment? You must be joking! There wouldn't be school or tourist horses on this planet!
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 5:09 pm:

Reread my post Christos--I made no reference to a horse not forgiving unfair treatment. Having said that, I respect your knowledge, your willingness to share, and your desire to learn. We will never agree on this point however.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 5:35 pm:

Oh, yes, we would agree, Julie,
If I ever had a chance to show you what I mean. Horse issues are too subtle to define in words sometimes.
I wouldn't say I have reached knowledge, Julie. I do have a rich collection of experiences, but it needs sorting out, putting it in order and refining it, in the years to come, so we can then call it knowledge.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 5:39 pm:

We exhausted Christine's first post. Shouldn't we put a lid on it?
Member:
Albionsh

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 6:52 pm:

Christine, most likely your mare is just cranky until she has been fed. I would send her away so you can safely put her hay in, and turn away. Don't be there long enough for her to disrespect you, don't ask for affection first thing in the morning. I would suppose that she is not so cranky at other times of the day. If she were, then it would require some retraining to let her know you are the alpha. A truly aggressive horse is a danger, but I'm guessing she just doesn't want to play nice first thing in the morning. More smaller feedings will also make it less of an issue as she wouldn't be quite as hungry. Just a thought (as I look for that darn coffee cup early in the morning!)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 9:22 pm:

Sarah, I was going to e-mail you, but you don't have an e-mail address listed . . .

I don't know more that I can offer to you than what has already been offered by folks here, or what has been shared in other posts about disrespectful behavior of horses on the ground . . .

The Mare's "-itchiness" each morning is not acceptable if it is directed at you. Your choice to have her checked for physical problems is a right and responsible action . . . because her grumpiness and agressiveness in the morning and when you put on her blanket could very well be signs of discomfort . . . (I liken it to how I feel and act when I have a headache . . .

Regumate was offered as a possible remedy for hormone related issues . . . I have seen it work on one of my mares who bucked riders off every time she came into heat. Once on Regumate, she didn't buck anymore.

Seizures . . . and Mood swings . . . I remember a thread we had over a year ago . . . maybe two . . . and the horse in question probably had a tumor on the brain . . . and that was causing his erratic, aggressive behavior and uncontrollability . . . Don't think that is what is going on with your mare, but if other physical issues are ruled out, and if Regumate doesn't help the raging hormones, then it is a possibility . . .

Sarah, your specuation about the jealousy toward the gelding is valid . . . but the aggression should never be directed at you. Yes, carry a leaDrOpe and flick it toward the horse to get her to back away and focus and give you your space . . . and don't give her what she wants until she can give you a kind eye and lowered head . . . That includes letting her out in the a.m. . . . Set aside a morning when you have time, and just spend it approaching her stall and attempting to let her out . . . and if she gives you the evil eye, give her an ugly "argh! CUT IT OUT!" . . . and then leave her there . . .and go back two minutes later (long enough for her to process what has happened) and try again . . . until she will give you an "ears up" look of welcome.

Yes, Sarah . . . some horses (as with some children . . . my Matt comes to mind) take an incredible amount of concentration and energy to keep them focused and obedient . . . They just plain wear you out! :-) . . . but they teach us volumes . . .

I have found that it is nice to have a few challenging horses and a few laid back guys . . . 'cause SOME days, I just don't feel like fighting and TRAINING every second . . . on the days when my energy level is low . . . I choose one of the easy guys to ride . . . That way, I get my horse "fix," but reduce my risk of getting hurt or of becoming impatient or discouraged.

This series of posts is so long that I'm not going to scan back to see who said it, but someone asked what should be done after the horse has been disciplined for aggression . . . I think Dennis voiced what I've learned from John Lyons . . . you just continue doing what you were doing . . . don't think about it . . . the debt of disobedience was paid with discipline, so just act normal after each incident . . . praise when you would praise, pat when you would pat, and discipline when you would discipline . . .

As has been voiced by other members . . . and, Terri, you took the words right out of my mouth . . . we can't discipline horses thinking that THEY think the way we do. Horses live in the moment . . . they don't lie awake at night planning an attack . . . nor to they reminisce about it afterwards playing it over and over in their minds . . . Discipline for horses needs to happen immediately after the incident . . . anything else is cruelty . . . because they WON'T make a connection between a delayed whack . . . but they WILL make a connection between the WHACK and who gave it to them . . . and that will increase their distrust, aggressiveness toward that individual . . . or make them so fearful that NO human is going to be able to earn their trust without investing much time and patience and loving energy.

And THOSE abused ones are often the ones I end up with . . . and it takes TIME to regain that trust . . . and some never really trust but will always stay on guard . . . I have two like that now . . . One I've had for over 10 years (he's the dun in my profile). . . and I've never hurt him . . . but SOMEONE sure did, and he's never forgotten but is always waiting for the "whack" to come . . . and he'll get you with a cow kick before you can even THINK of whacking him.

I think there are too many issues in this series of posts on Ground Manners . . . LOL . . . hard to keep them all straight.
Holly
Member:
Tommygee

Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2004 - 1:59 am:

Time to close this huge post.
Hi, Christine (the initiator of this post)is back to say a final "THANKYOU" for everyones opinions.

Huge response & equally HUGE post. Now to sort it out in my head.

Thanks again
Christine
Member:
Lorid

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006 - 5:25 pm:

Hi all. I would like to ask a question about leading. My gelding seems to want to step into my space....too close to my side. However, he stops when I stop, backs up, turns, etc. with no problem, but when walking straight, he comes too close to my feet and tries to pass me out a little. What I have been doing is practicing leading with him. I will put slack in the rope (which is the way I should be holding the lead all the time) and he he either gets too close or tries to go slightly ahead, I pull the lead backward under his chin to slow him down and keep him at a healthy distance. When he complies, I give him a hearty "good boy" and a petting. Is this correct or can someone share a better way to get this problem sorted out?

Thanks - Lori
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006 - 6:28 pm:

This can be a tough problem and one I've had. If the horse begins to pass me I take him around in a circle until he is again in the proper position. Sometimes this makes it take a long time to get somewhere due to all the circles! You can also shake the lead rope up and down to make them back off but that is not a good long-term solution. Solving this goes back to teaching the horse to respect your space, and the various appropriate ground exercises, and playing with the horse on the ground.
Member:
Lorid

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006 - 6:49 pm:

Thanks Vicki. If I may ask, what might those various ground exercises be to get him to better respect my space? He is a playful horse and I think he would enjoy doing these - to my benefit!
Member:
Alden

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006 - 11:13 pm:

Lori,

The problem with pulling back is you tend to pull him INTO your space since you can't really pull straight back. Circling works well, I also make random and quick 90 degree turns to the right. A horse that is ahead of you will find this very difficult, I find doing this every once in a while keeps them on their toes less likely to get ahead of me.

Clinton Anderson has several good DVDs that detail good ground exercises to gain control of the head, neck, shoulders and hips.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Lorid

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006 - 11:36 pm:

Thanks Alden! I will certainly start doing this. Thanks for your help!

Lori
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 12:09 am:

I agree Alden. I was taught to keep my elbow out when my mare would crowd me while I was teaching her to lead. I didn't do anything; she ran into it. Leilani
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 7:47 am:

Another idea is to carry a riding crop in your left hand, flat across but not touching the horse's chest. If the horse starts pushing ahead, tap him on the chest with the crop until he backs off and then immediately stop tapping as a reward. When he's in the correct position, give him lots of "good boys". Do stops, turns, back up, all with the crop in the same place, the idea being that the horse is paying attention and never runs into it and you never have to tap him.
Member:
Lorid

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 9:52 am:

Thank you! You are all SO helpful. I love this site and am so glad I found it.

I will put your good advice to use, believe me!

Lori
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 10:40 am:

Lori, I have used the idea of a crop in front of the chest to help teach a horse to stay back. However, if they don't respect the crop they will still walk through it.
I have also kept a horse a bit behind me and use my outstretched arm to keep him back until he understands I can keep him back, then gradually let him move up to the position I want him in.
When a horse crowds you with his shoulder he is definitely saying--move over, get out of 'my' space--- his wanting to lead is the same.
You need to teach him to move away from pressure, get him sensitive to you, I can literally point my finger at my mare and she will move the appropriate body part.
Sometimes, in the beginning, a particular horse may need a firm tap or two in order to understand that the crop can 'bite' hard, and he needs to pay attention.
Look for small improvements, stay relaxed and consistent.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 4:50 pm:

Hi Lori,
I'm a little late to this thread..my only 2 cents worth adding is a book I found that addresses ground manners in a clear, precise and most helpful way. "Teach your Horse Perfect Manners. How You Should Behave So Your Horse Does Too" By Kelly Marks. I got it from Amazon in the used book section...it was a fraction of the SRP and in perfect condition. I've applied what I learned from this book to my newly acquired 3yr old filly...she is now close to what I call close to perfectly behaved horse (perfection is a goal, never an accomplishment!)...I'm very proud of our work together.
Member:
Rhondal

Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 11:05 am:

Valentine will gingerly with his teeth take just a tiny bit of my coat and just hold it he's not trying to bite or being aggressive.

So from what I have read he shoudn't be allowed to do this either??
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 11:37 am:

My two cents? Do not let him do this now. You will just confuse him if you allow this. Maybe later, when he's grown up a bit it *might* be ok.
Member:
Rhondal

Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 7:15 pm:

Valentine is 17 so should I still not let him do this?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 10:22 am:

I'm sorry, I thought your post was about a biting horse... If he never bites you, knows his boundaries and has good ground manners... I think it is ok. My boy does similar things with me. He tests me about once a year. However, I never know when that *test* will come, so I always watch his mouth and he gets an "ah ah ah" if his teeth part.
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 2:17 pm:

While on the subject of manners I thought this comment could be relevant and hopefully helpful

Lately I have not been able to go to the ranch every day so I have other people looking after my horses and I only go there on Sundays (sniff) and I started noticing changes in their behavior, Henry was becoming bullish, Champal the colt was nervous and scared,etc., so obviously I assumed that they were being mistreated.

Soooo off I went 007 style to see what was happening and the problem was that they changed the routine they’ve had for 4 years!

They put the head collars in any old order, they were tied up in any given pole, fed in any all order… and it really was like when the teacher is not in the class room! They were really acting up!

Someone once said that common sense is the most dangerous thing and there you have it.

I asked the people to give each horse their own head collar, tie them in their own pole and feed them in the right order, and magic. All you have to do is say places and they each go to their pole, they give a step back when you put the feed bowl down etc. as they did before.

Ah, I never ever hit my horse, only voice commands!

Greetings
Liliana
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 3:56 pm:

Ahh...Liliana, back to the idea that it isn't the horses that need training, it's the people who need training...
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 4:41 pm:

In mho horses are a bit like kids, I entirely agree with Christos, one has to be the Alfa, if they are to feel at easy. A dummy could not look after them!

With all due respect to the horse behavior person, , next time read the manual. Yes they can be allowed their personality but they have to be guided.

Sorry I had not read all of it. Wow what a great thread
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 12:15 pm:

Hi,

I lost the end of my thumb to a bite so I don't tolerate any mouth contact not initiated by me. I do believe, though that the correction must happen in the moment. One of the keys is to not encourage the behavior by hand feeding or allowing "play" by mouthing or nibbling to continue.

As far as leading, I ask my horses to walk behind me at the end of the lead rope. I have done extensive groundwork with my horses and they have been conditioned to not enter my space without invitation. As a result, even when they have spooked, they have avoided me and have had enough room to do so be being at the end of the 12' lead rope. After all, a mare avoids stepping on her foal 99.9% of the time. Walking next to me, I feel the chances are higher than I will be stepped on or knocked down in the event of a spook.

Again, just another way of doing things.

Cheers, Ruth
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