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  Discussion on Neck carriage too high
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Member:
Riley94

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 9:45 am:

I am having some trouble with my horse and I think this falls into both the training the mind and training the body. While I am trying to get him to work he carries his head very high, like he is focussed externally. This is most obvious since we are now working in the arena. I get the impression that he is paying attention to things outside that he cannot see but worries about - or pretends to worry about. He shys a lot too at the jumps in the corner and cavaletti if we pas by the sides. This is the sort of head/neck carriage that he demonstrates most of the time but a little less pronounced. His head is approximately vertical, his neck has a arch in it, his back is not hollow but not completely lifted either, his ears are pricked forward. It's very hard to get him to work with me, he's half way there. When I try to get after him with very focussed effort and trying to get him to pay attention to me by asking for a shoulder in as we pass by the jumps, he actually gets worse as he anticipates the combination of the spooky thing and my demands. It's almost like he wants to push me into getting upset so that he then gets to act upset too. Almost like he is picking a fight. I will use a chambon while lungeing, but do not want to use anything like draw reins as I feel that they encourage incorrect development. Any advice would be appreciated.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 10:37 am:

You could try John Lyons approach to teach him to DrOp his head. Start with the left rein untill he completly understands and has learnt the lessons.then the right then both reins. First put slight contact with your left rein and hold. Your horse will maybe turn or do other things trying to work out what you want. Watch his ears the second that they lower DrOp the rein. After a few times he will have worked out what you want. This is only a brief description . This needs to be practiced many times. you really need to read his articles or books.That works great. Teaching your horse to give to the bit will get him to keep his head at the length you allow the reins. Teaching your scared horse to DrOp his head relaxs him immediently. when his head is lower he is alot calmer and listens much better than when held high.A lot of the natural horsemen teach similar lessons. They work great what ever disipline you ride in. Great for green horses.
I would also go back to the basics, alot of walk ,trot,halt comands given a few minutes /seconds apart so that he is waiting for your next instruction. Relaxing and teaching him to DrOp his head and give to the bit and listening calmly and instantly to your cues should come before more advanced stuff.
Good luck
Katrina
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 12:01 pm:

Excellent, Katrina . . . I was going to suggest the same thing . . . teaching a cue to DrOp the head, as well as going back to basics of giving to the bit to each side on a light touch of the rein. I used John Lyons's methods for ten years, and have recently started with Clinton Anderson's training sequence which I actually like better, as it seems to get better results faster. Presently, I am working with a green horse (7 years old) from off the TB race track. He has already had 2 years of training, and is one of the most ADD horses I've ever met. He learns amazingly quickly, but is so interested in what the other horses are doing, or where the tractor is going or what dog is around the corner of the barn, that I have to stay "on top of him" the whole time . . . he isn't particularly spooky, but he DOES notice everything and DOES carry his head high . . . I feel like a Special Education tutor . . . He is great fun to work with because he DOES learn quickly, but as soon as he learns something and does it well it's as if he pushes it under the rug and wants to go do something else . . .
While I was reading your post, Anne, I also wondered if maybe you'd want to have your horse's eyes checked. The head-up and staring and spooking might be signs of the horse just trying to focus better . . .
By any chance . . . is your horse an Arabian? LOL
I have had a few Arabians, and I have to admit that they all seem to SEE MORE . . . and THINK about what they see more than the other breeds of horses I've had ('cept maybe this TB).
New Member:
Stina

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 1:26 pm:

Good of Holly to suggest ruling out a vision problem. I would also recommend determing good sadlle fit, and assuring there is no back or neck pain. A good chiropractor could make that determination for you.

In addition, since focus and respect seem to be an issue here, I would recommend a lot of ground work. By this I don't mean the traditional round and round lunging type excersize. But rather, spending time to teach what you want and get the response you want on the ground, prior to asking for it in the saddle. Most of the natural horesmanship style instructors stress the importance of ground work and I have seen the proof in the pudding behind their reasoning. So put up some scary obstacles, get a soft rope style halter, a lunge line, and go out into your arena and play on the ground with your horse. Impart on to him that the safest place he can be is with you and when he is with you he is safe. Once their is trust and respect on the ground, coping with distractions and boogy monsters with you on his back becomes much easier to overcome.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 3:27 pm:

Anne,
Adding to Katrina's excellent advise, I would suggest you focus on your relaxation as well. Remember to breathe, sometimes we forget about it in moments of intense concentration, and this is something a high strung horse will immediately worry about and scan around for the reason!
Relax, murmur a tune to him, and you'll probably see half his nervousness go away.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 6:51 pm:

Along with the above advice, I'd consider what bit you are presently using. My Arab mare was like that too; I kept waiting for her to outgrow it. 12 yrs later, (she's 14 now) she was still the same. What has made a difference was switching to a Myler bit. I am using the MB04, with hooks. I made the mistake of "overbiting" her while teaching myself to ride with 4 reins. Monte Foremen bit, and running martingale, in an attempt to keep her in line. Waaaay too much bit for her little mouth I now realize. She's much more relaxed now, and I don't use the martingale.
Use above suggestions, and don't add more "anything" (bit, drawreins,etc). I agree with the others, focus and relaxtion will help so much.

And be prepared, this horse may always be like a little "Kamakazie" (however ya spell it) if that's his nature. Keeps things interesting is what I say!
Member:
Riley94

Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2004 - 10:52 pm:

Thanks to all of you for the advice.

Katrina: I will consider some John Lyons stuff. I have never read it but most people say I think and act like a behavioral trainer and that most any other horse would be better by now. Maybe I need a deeper understanding by reading the work. I have been back to the basics so much that I think I'll never leave that spot. Probably I'm not getting something right.

Holly: I can totally relate to your feeling about being a special ed tutor. But this guy seems never to get it. He can be both autistic and then ballistic if you know what I mean. It's probably a wacky gene. He's a dutch warmblood TB cross. Looks great, not nearly as intelligent as my 3/4 TB/draft. About the vision. I have been thinking this and really dreading that that could be the issue. There have been other suttle signs, like standing to one side on the cross ties a lot. More reactive when things are on one side vs the other. It's probably better I get this checked, I want to event him and with his lack of trust we could not overcome vision issues.

Stina: I have been working with a chiropractor (former vet) and she has seen nothing to alarm her. I consider my saddle fit to be very good. It was restuffed by a saddler who came to see my horse and it never moves and the pad is always in place without any straps. But I think you are dead on in the focus and respect issue. It is painful to me that after 2 years he has no faith in me to comfort him, nor any other person for that matter. My husband has been saying that the horse does not respect me, yet I am firm and he is well mannered, but you guessed it, not always going where I want him to.

Christos: Thanks, I do forget to breathe. I have been learning to ride with the Mary Wanless principles and breathing is a big deal. You are right, I get tense with his shenanigans and stop breathing right. But I have found that if I can properly connect with his back I can have a decent influence on his attention. I may need a new saddle but have been searching in vain for a used one (I really hate new saddles) that would suit the horse and me.

Angie: The bit thing is something that I have recently changed and I thought it was helping but now I think not. I have ridden him in a KK ultra (double jointed loose ring snaffle)for a long time but am now trying the Mikmar bit and I have a single rein set on the main centre piece. Basically there is no leverage action and it's a straight bar bit. I tried the double reins and found him over reactive to the curb rein, becoming over bent. My hands are not that great, I get that solid elbow thing happening when things are not going rythmically.

Thanks everybody
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2004 - 3:06 am:

Erm... Anne... some horses are just like that.

I have a mare who can do beautiful dressage if she happens to feel like it (part Holsteiner) but she does have a high neck carriage. This is not because of anything to do with confirmation or physical injury, but because what she really likes is being nosy - looking over hedges, checking things out as Holly describes. She is extremely intelligent and always boss mare of any herd. Unfortunately this means she constantly anticipates what you want rather than waiting to get an instruction.

I have tried everything with her and the only answer is lots and lots of interesting, varied flatwork with a planned regime. Even then she will often let you down in competition. She knows how to do it, it's just keeping her attention while she's doing it!

I can never completely practise a dressage test with her before the competition because she will learn it off by heart and then start anticipating all the upwards transitions, since gallop is her preferred pace.

So don't beat yourself up, some horses are just like that. They are also usually the horses (again as Holly describes) which are the most fun to own even if you don't win all the rosettes. I wouldn't swap her for anything.

Try a French link snaffle.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Riley94

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2004 - 11:16 pm:

Thanks Imogen.

Today I worked with someone on the ground and he was a lot better. It seems that giving him an alterate moving focus helps. We really worked on attention. Fortunately he's not much of an anticipater. I learned with my last horse how to keep things interesting. She was a big anticipater. Smart as whip, but also not very reliable in terms of dressage performance.

I have a french link egg but that I used to put in sometimes when he is getting truly frustrating. I am going to give up the mikmar and return to a more traditional bit tomorrow. Lots of moving the bit seems to help, until he distracts me from that task.

I do like him a lot, I always love a horse with personality - it gives him presence. I try to tread that fine line between listening to his cues and not letting him be a spoiled brat. All the while we move very slowly more towards our goals.

Anne
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2004 - 11:29 pm:

Anne,
Your last sentence reminds me of something I've heard John Lyons say . . . "The slower you go, the faster you get there."
It sounds as if you are doing right by your horse, and he is fortunate to have such a thoughtful owner.
By the way, I use a full cheek Dr. Bristol . . . similar to the french link . . . and I use it on every horse I ride (right now that would be about 10-13 a week) . . . and they all do well with it. I feel I can send very subtle cues with it . . . and if I get a tough case (some of these hunt horses have been hauled on so much that they just don't listen to light cues) the full cheek allows sufficient control for circling runaways or keeping a nose up to the side to prevent bucking.
Holly
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 2:19 am:

Holly - The Dr Bristol is considered by many to be a very severe bit... (the bit bit, not the full cheek bit if you see what I mean) and it's banned in a lot of dressage competitions here. I know it works but I'd only use it if you were getting no joy with a standard French link... but then you have a lot more experience with different horses than many of us.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 2:33 am:

Hi, Imogen . . .
I have heard that from one other person, a cowboy, before . . . but for the life of me, I can't understand why the Dr. Bristol is considered severe. It appears little different from the french link. If pressure is applied with both reins, there is not the same nut-cracker action to the jaw bones and tongue as there is with a regular snaffle. The center link gives relief to the tongue, and since there is a double joint, each side of the bit moves more independently of the other so that, it seems to me, I am able to give lighter, more understandable direct rein cues.
I know that any bit can be severe when used by rough hands or inflexible arms . . . and my aim is to train each horse to respond to the lightest cues . . . I ride on a very light rein . . . and have learned how to give immediate releases when I get a give from the horse . . . In the years that I've used the Dr. Bristol, I have had wonderful results with it . . . so I am "in the dark" as to why it is considered severe. Have you ever heard an explanation as to why it is considered a severe bit?
Thanks.
Member:
Althaea

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 11:30 am:

Hi Holly!
The Dr. Bristol (there are many that have imitated the link - so there are many French Links that fall into the same category) is considered severe because of the shape (a rectangle), width (usually thin), and the angle of the link. The link is thinner than most French Links, and the angle is intended to bite into the tongue when applied. You will note a faster response to the Dr. Bristol design than with a classic French Link. (The true French Link link will have an hour glass design) The Herm Sprenger design of the Ultra KK is my choice of a French Link style bit. The link is rounded and set at an angle that will not apply strong pressure to the tongue - but allows for the maximum allowance for tongue room. The Dewsbury Kangeroo Brand French Link is similar in design - but the angle that the link is attached to the center of the bit is slightly different and the lozenge is longer and thinner than the Ultra KK.
The entire design of a full cheek is to keep the bit in a constant position - keepers should be used - so that the horse cannot evade the action. The arms of the full cheek are intended to use the slight pressure exerted on the cheeks of the horse for guidance as well.
The choice of any bit should not be considered a life time commitment, but rather just another phase of the horse's training.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 2:53 pm:

Hi, Althaea,
Thank you for your thorough description . . . I don't use the keepers, and try to only give light cues . . . so maybe that keeps the bit from being as severe as it could be . . . and I think it allows the flat, wide link to sit flat on the horse's tongue. I know that the French link has an hour glass shape, but most of the French links I have seen have a very small link, so I don't see how the small, shallow dip on one side of the link can provide much relief for the wide tongue of the horse. My Dr. Brisol has bit pieces that are of medium circumference.

The benefits of the "arms" on the full cheek are invaluable. I see horses ridden in all styles of western and English curbs, and I see many of them getting yanked around and going with their heads up to avoid the bit action, even when wearing tie downs and standing martingales.
I do ride many horses of all ages and stages of training, and I have to admit that I feel safer and kinder to their mouths when I use the Dr. Bristol. It seems I can get the best response from all of them, and am able to ask them to lower their heads best with the full cheek Dr. Bristol. I don't frequent tack shops often, but is there such a thing as a full cheek French link? If it is, indeed, kinder to the horse's mouth I would definitely be interested.
Thanks, again.
Member:
Sross

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 7:43 pm:

I just searched on google, and yes, there are plenty of places out there offering full cheek French link snaffles.
Back in 2001, I asked Dressage Today what is the difference between the Dr. Bristol and French link. Their response follows:

"The difference between the two is in the action of the mouthpiece. Although they look very similar, and are both members of the snaffle family, the French link is one of the gentlest and the Dr. Bristol one of the most severe. The French link has a neat, waisted link with beveled edges, which lies in a distinctive vertical plane to the sides of the mouthpiece. The Dr. Bristol has an oblong, blunt, much longer plate with squared edges, which lies at an angle to the rest of the mouthpiece. The Frenck link offers a gentle action within the mouth, it rests on the bars, has limited use of the corners and although in contact with the tongue does not exert any direct pressure. The Dr. Bristol, however, has a much stronger action, still resting on the bars with a limited use of the corners, it exerts its main pressure directly onto the tongue. The bit reacts to the rider's hands, so that when they are raised, the mouthpiece tilts forward so that the plate forms an acute angle to the sides of the mouthpiece, this exerts strong pressure onto the tongue, which is released when the rider's hands are lowered. Both the French link and the Dr. Bristol can come with a variety of cheeck styles, which can change the overall action."-Alixe Etherington
I switched from the Dr. Bristol to the French link, and have been happy with the results.

Of course, any bit is only as severe as the hands of the rider. Something I was rereading just this morning:
"I like every horse in as mild a bit as possible, but I'm realist enough to know that control is essential. If your safety and confidence rely on a pelham or a snaffle with a little twist, I can live with that, expecially if you can adjust your hand to the sharpness of the bit. (It's better to be soft with a tougher bit than to tug and rip with a fat snaffle.)"-Lendon Gray, Practical Horseman
If you do end up trying the French link, let us know the results.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2004 - 8:12 pm:

Thanks, Sandra, so much for sharing your info.

I do ride with my hands low, and with a light rein and no keepers on the cheek pieces, I wonder if the action is much gentler.

I will keep my eyes open for the full cheek French link . . .
Holly
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 12:42 pm:

Holly,
Here's a British link to a full cheek French link:
https://www.tds-saddlers.com/ProductDetails.asp?PCLinkID=1868
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 2:16 pm:

Imogen and Ann,
My young half Dutch, half Anglo Arab (not French, but 1/2 TB 1/2 Arab dam) is very similar to your two. I wonder if that type of breed has this issue?
My gelding is the worst when in our indoor. He is horrible when something changes. When he is somewhere away from home, he is much less spooky. I have learned to keep his attention by vibrating the rein on the side away from the scary thing. I also use a lot of inside seat bone. My boy doesn't have high head carriage, but he still does the arched neck, eyes bugging out thing. I have gotten him to the point where he usually just slows down and looks, but we started out a few years ago with him rearing up on his hind legs, wheeling around, and running. I have compromised with him and now let him look, as long as he doesn't alter his path too much, or change his pace. I think he will always be like this, so I have to live with it. He is very talented over fences, and the spooking goes way down when he is jumping.
Just additional information.
Alicia
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 3:13 pm:

It's comforting to read I am not the only person with an upheaded, distracted, spooky horse! I have a Morgan and he has always been more interested in the world around him than what I am trying to say to him. When he was younger he would ping around like a giraffe on Prozac and it was a real battle to get him relaxed and listening.

I have to say it does get better with patience and perseverance! He is still the kind of horse who notices every little thing, but I can also get his attention back to me much easier now and he isn't as strung out as he used to be.

I think these sort of horses are just 'reactive' and in the wild would probably be the look-outs for the herd!
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 3:55 pm:

Well, my Arab mares are looking more quiet and sensible by the minute on this thread! There is just one more thing that I'd like to add to the good training advice given although I'm a bit behind the power curve.

I try to be careful about what lesson I'm teaching at all times, especailly to the silly ones. When I ask the horse to give their attention to me and they give me none, or just a little, then I have just "trained" them to give me none or just a little attention when I ask. Everytime the horse is allowed to give you less than the desired response you are reinforcing his ADD, if you will.

So When I'm schooling on this matter and I say "hey there" to the horse and they ignore me I then say Hey or HEY! until I get the response I wanted. I always start the horse on lateral flexations (just the bending to the side with the use of the inside leg) and I ask for that when I want to get their attention. This is very similar to what Katrina was saying but you can use your leg as an addtional reinforcer to bump them if they are being silly. Anyway, that's more than I was going to add... Just to be careful to get them to stop and focus each and Everytime you ask, and to graduate your reinforcers.

Kerry
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 5:56 pm:

Kerry I did forget to mention legs and yeilding it works wonders. That goes automatically with rein aids. Also about not getting lazy and accidently teaching not so good things.Great points. By the way I have only ever ridden high headed hot arabians. But they can be taught to lower there heads no matter how high strung. It may not be as natural for them to carry their heads low but they can be taught to do it. It really does teach them to relax. Who ever saw a horse with a low head carriage act stupid. (unless bucking):-)
Katrina
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2004 - 11:47 pm:

Thank you, Christos, for the link to the link . . . :-)
Kerry, you are so right . . . I have had to do the exact same kinds of things with preoccupied students in the classroom . . . When speaking their names doesn't get their dedicated attention, and slapping my podium doesn't encourage them to keep focused, walking to their desks, placing my hand on the desk, crouching down to eye level, and speaking to them while making eye contact usually does it . . . (And if THAT doesn't work, I give them two choices . . . "You can sit quietly, pay attention to the lesson, and learn . . . . OR . . . You can leave right now and go to the principal's office . . . .Which do you choose?" If we care enough to teach, we can't settle for anything less than that our student's learn SOMEthing . . . It takes time, energy and focus on the parts of both teacher and student . . . and while we may be exhausted at the end of a lesson with a difficult student, our dedication will pay off. We improve as communicators, and our students are able to learn.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 12:08 pm:

Yup, leg yielding is a vital tool for the bug-eyed ADD horse... I am also fond of circles with deliberate bend to the outside occasionally and squares with sharp corners and shoulder-in. Turns on the forehand too. Open rein aids while not strictly kosher with the true dressage person can also be extremely useful.

I find doing schooling while on a hack also good - changing diagonal, leg yielding, lengthening and shortening, halting quietly (ho ho...) while cars go by, little bits of dressage on the beach and in fields so that we don't necessarily have to give it serious giraffe every time we go somewhere strange etc.

And never gallop in the same place twice...

If anyone has any good tips for stopping this type of horse anticipating that once we have cantered in a circle in one direction then there's a fairly good chance we might do it again after a change of rein, I'll be delighted to hear it...

All the best

Imogen
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