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  Discussion on Horse stops when loping, has go problems
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Member:
Jrisch

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 3:58 pm:

Help! I have an four year old mare with an attitude problem! She is nasty! First, when I am loping her she will come to a dead stop without any cueing from me, or any warning. She just stops because she doesn't want to lope anymore. Second, if she decides she does not want to move, or go, she won't. She is quite flexible so trying to get her off balance to turn her in a circle does not work. She just reaches around and tries to bite my foot. I have tried using a quirt, and smacking her when she stops during the lope, or won't go, but it has not worked. I have also had her checked out by the vet to make sure she's not hurting. The diagnosis is that she's got an attitude. When she feels like loping (like when she's been stalled for a week without riding), she does with no problems. I am an accomplished rider of 30 years and have started and trained many horses, but this is the first time I have encountered this and I'm at a loss. Any suggestions?
Member:
Rjbraun

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 4:28 pm:

Hi I am sure you did try other saddles? Sounds like something hurts her,but as you said you tried about everything.Does she keep going at a walk or canter?or try to turn back to the barn?
Member:
Paix

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 1:02 am:

I have a few thots on this that has worked for me. Things u may have tried, Im not sure.

Make it uncomfortable for her to stop. (I know u tried this with circles). When she stops, back her up for 10 steps or the length of the arena, if u need to. Do it longer if that doesnt work - your work may be more in a back up mode than forward for a few sessions.

Then gallop her for a short distance and let that be a success - get off immediately, give lots of praise and stop for the day.

Another idea if backing up is not an option for some reason, gallop for a short distance (different every time) and stop her yourself. Congratulate her profusely, get off (at different parts of the arena every time, of course), keep congratulating her and walk her out of the arena. Thats it - short & successful. You can do it a couple times a day.

I believe turining her in circles is not only about breaking the poll & flex work - but also can be about discomfort and making her work harder than going forward.

One thing I do is have my horses stand still while flexing them to my foot. If someone nips, they get a foot nudge, but I dont stop the other track of work (they have more than one track going at a given time, so I take that to my advantage).

Im still talking easy to them and asking them to bend. Sort of "pretending" as tho the one track (the nip and nudge) are unrelated to what we are REALLY doing. I use the same idea if on the ground.

Hitting has never worked for me (I dont mean to imply u hit her abusively) I just mean, in general. I have, out of my own REaction -slapped a few noses of stallions that have gotten in a bite. It was never meant for training, in fact they start making it a game... nip and react - Isnt this fun? Just what they want.

So, with this, I get two tracks going (Prolly more than Im even aware), and get ahead of the nip, so to speak. I rub and talk very sweet and scratch their spots - every time they turn to nip, I stay the same sweet voice, rubbing and scratching with one hand while elbow is out & ready to nudge a nip.

It makes them "correct themsleves" and it has nothing to do with me and it stops being a game. Im not exactly sure why it works - except that I dont think they associate the "correction" to me so it stops being interesting to them.

There is always going back to basics and working her in the round pen (all saddled up) with u there in the center with a tool that gets her moving. Like our yearlings learn, they have to keep going until we ask them to stop. Until they get that, they keep working.

But, at the first inclination, wink or sparkle in their eye of "getting it,"congratulate profusely and stop.

I have been lucky in that these tools have consistenly worked for me. I use my tone of voice a lot! It doesnt have to be loud - just tonal differences along with body language to reinforce what Im saying, asking, doing.

Of course, If a behaviour doesnt correct so easily as "the average," I do check into it as u have, with a vet.

I have a PMU DraftX I rescued at 3y/o. IMO, he was severly abused. I was "told," when trying to get him under saddle (AT TWO!), he was spurred, hobbled, tipped, u name it. When I got this guy, he was a mess. There was NO getting near him without near suicide attempts on his part.

I digress - the point I want to make with him, is that when I got him under saddle (about 6 mos ago) he had a tremendous buck nobody could stay on him. So, he wins, everytime. Only six sporadic times, but nearly killed me and another trainer.

They weird thing was that he wld go a good 10-12 rides (arena work), without a glitch, just awesome to ride and watch.

Then, it seemed, out of the blue he would buck one day. Same bridle, saddle, arena, etc... why? Couldnt figure it out - so I had a vet check as well as chiropractic specialist check him.

At around 2 (so I am told), he took a really bad fall abt 300 ft down the side of a mountain thru dense trees. The guy who gave him to me said, "thats when his brains fell out and we decided he'd never make it as a horse. He'd kill anybody who tried."

Maybe he had a bad disc from that fall or something got flared up every once in a while - it was so unpredictable.

He checked out ok, so I suppose it muscle memory and then having success??? But why only 6 times out of many rides?

Still dont really know - Being in a cast (yes he did that - my very first broken bones ever!), I had another trainer work with him - he didnt try to "work on the bucking problem" he gave him an unbelievable near sliding stop.

A big draft that gets his legs under him and stops on a dime.

So, today, at merely a voice "whoa" he stops on a dime. He is still very green and this is what we do - we go and stop many times so I know I have control.

Its more the theory I am hoping to communicate - I know stopping IS the problem ur having -but the idea of not addressing the problem directly and giving u/them another tool to communicate with was a great lesson for me.

It seems counter-intuitive, at the same time worked very well with my big guy and many other of the race horses this trainer works with.

Ive worked with horses, too, for nearly 25 years -Im always learning something new watching other people work out behaviour problems. There seems to be a common communication foundation with horses, but where u take it from there is so individual to the horse.

Its a never ending education for me - I truly love this work!


We have almost forgotten how strange a thing it is that so huge and powerful and intelligent an animal as a horse should allow another, and far more feeble animal to ride upon it's back.
~Peter Gray
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 6:09 am:

Jennifer,
This horse is trying to tell you that for whatever reason, that much loping is enough for the day.
After you rule out any physical problems, try to see whether you're pushing her beyond her abilities. Many honest horses will happily perform to their limit, yet switch fast into monsterous attitude if you try to push them any further.
If you are sure she is healthy, sound and definitely capable of keeping the lope longer, let her pull her stop, then dismount quietly and strap a front leg up so she stands on three legs for 5-10 minutes. Unstrap the leg, mount, walk a round and ask for the lope again. Repeat the strap-up if she stops on her own. It shouldn't take her more than two-three times to understand.
Do keep in mind, however, that she is not necessarily comfortable at a lope just because she'll run about after she was stalled for a week. I know several horses that would lope out even on four broken legs if they were stalled for a week.
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 1:59 pm:

Jennifer,

I would ask if she is well versed in her ground work and if she doesn't do it on the trails, in company, at the walk or jog. Also how far into her daily works she is doing this. Is it from fatigue or soreness? That could really create a balker. Some horses just won't tolerate much discomfort. The flip side of this is you might have that to use to your advantage in getting her going.

I would first try to ID the cause and work around it (if it's not too late). If you're sure she's not getting hurt somewhere or injuring herself while she's at work, then pull her head around and wait her out. It could take 10 minutes but she'll be sore the next day and it won't take as long. I would also try to throw her off balance by moving her head side to side and asking for forward motion, I'd try backing, and THEN I would, last resort, tie the leg but not let her go down. A horse that is showing so much resistance by even nipping at you when you pull her etc is telling you something. I think horses are born with good attitudes, so I would be more inclined to work through this with a lot of patience before going with a tougher route. Good Luck!

Kerry
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 2:54 pm:

Kerry,Dina,
Can it be that by backing the horse every time it stops, or by turning it in order to get it started, you teach it to rear or duck to the side next time it negotiates something it really hates?
That's why I prefer training horses either moving straight ahead or stopping nice and straight and for as long as they need to work things out. Backing or turning from what they want to avoid? Noooo....
Member:
Jrisch

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 5:35 pm:

First off, this horse has been checked sound, I have tried different saddles. She is just plain mean. She's mean to the other horses, and has an all around bad attitude. The only reason I have her is that she has world class breeding for barrel racing and that's what I do. She never turns back to the barn. She only goes when she feels like it. Doesn't stop on trail rides, loping on the trail, etc. Only arena work. Her groundwork is excellent, she has a great foundation, works off the leg, etc. Just gets snotty when she feels like it. I have tried the backing method, which didn't work. She doesn't get tired and just stop..it's not like that - she just refuses to go sometimes. Not real consistent, it depends on her mood. The only thing I haven't tried is tying a leg up, and am not sure how to do it. Can someone explain?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 6:21 pm:

Well, Jennifer, I think she's good, very good, and she knows it. She sounds just arrogant, nothing serious.
When she pulls to her stop, dismount very calmly and ask immediately for a front leg. Fold it as far as it will comfortably go and strap her pastern to her forearm with a simple loop. An old stirrup leather is handy for this, if you do not want to punch a hole on your normal one.
I'd expect this character of a horse to be very interested in the procedure and very stoic to start with, only to throw a fit a couple of minutes later. Make sure the footing is soft.
Try to prevent her from moving or kneeling down, but keep generally calm and cool.
Do show her that you enjoyed her suggestion to get off her back and have a little break, and that you're very pleased she asked.
You'll see in her face and posture when she'll quit her stubborness. Unstrap the leg, walk a little to restore circulation and mount again.
It will not work first time out, mainly because she'll want to check if she got the association of stopping with strapping right.
It won't take her long to realise that stopping is uncomfortable, silly, and, above all, does not start the confrontation she expected.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 9:20 pm:

This post is making me smile. A year after I got my little arab. Everything was going wonderfuly.He hurt himself in a fall in the paddock and hurt his hip. After I thought he was better he did the same thing as your horse. I thought oh he is still sore. The vets said he was sore and did not know why. He learnt to train me . By stopping and acting in pain he got out of riding. I did everything including the crop which I dont use very often. I called the lady who I got him from she raised him. She came out and watched him. She said use your hand and smack his butt,I said no way will that work. I did and told him off. Guess what off he went. I laughed and could not beleive it. Thats what she did all his life when he was naughty. He hates to get in trouble. I know this wont help you but boy it brought back memories. I guess you have to find the thing that bothers him enough to pay attention to you.
My horse tells me everything if he is uncomfortable or in pain he will let you know. Unfortunatly he used it to his advantage in this case.
Katrina
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 8:27 am:

Christos,
I'm not disputing your recommendation to tie up the horses leg...I don't have any experience with this particular issue. But, by getting off the horse when she stops, aren't you re-inforcing the bad behavior? Wouldn't the mare start to associate the stop with hey! when I stop on my own, this person will get off immediately...I like this idea!

The immediate re-action to the stop is rider off and I would imagine that it takes a minute or two to tie up the leg...can the horse then in her mind put the tied up leg together with the undesired action of stop?

I'm just curious because EVERYTHING I have read and been told says that praise or correction of a horse must occur within 3 seconds or they can't make the connection.

Just a thought
Member:
Paix

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:38 am:

I am not sure that it does teach them to rear or duck away from something. Its not been my experience to get these reactions. Depending on the horse, it just takes time and patience and waiting it out past their will.

If getting those reactions, I think maybe the horse is still doing anything to avoid discomfort and "work."

I know the things I described work well for me, at the same time, there is more than one way to get a desired outcome.

Sounds like Jennifer has tried these techniques to no avail. I wonder if a different rider gets the same attitude? Usually if I have a hard time correcting something - I look to how I am doing it, or how is this horse affecting my own internal attitude, feelings, frustration?

Am I waiting and expecting the undesired behaviour before Ive even taken mount?

These things can all manifest as minute physical tensions that we are unaware exist. But, the sensitive horse clues right into it like a laser and has their own manifestation...

Visualize what you want - edit the experience of her stopping - only think of her going. Close ur eyes when riding, take ur feet out of the stirrups, feel gravity and her movement.

Just an exercise I use, quite often, to remember relax and balance and trust.

Jennifer, can anyone video tape you on ur mare? Then you can watch for patterns in her or you or both.

VT is a wonderful tool - its quite amazing some of the things I think I am doing and I am not - and things I am sure I am not doing, I am!

Every horse (and even different days on the same horse) can vary. I learn so much from watching others and myself.


A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust.
- HME
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:47 am:

I like your story Katrina and my sympathy Jennifer. I also had a mean mare (still have her, but she has mellowed)who would just stop when we were alone or refuse to be lead horse if we were with others. The only thing that worked for me was circling and/or smacking her but with the end of my reins and spurs and scolding all at the same time. I agree with Fran, getting off seems to me to be reinforcing the bahavior.

When my saddle mare wants to quit and wants the rider off she will park out if you stop and the longer you are stopped the farther down she will go. This of course has nothing to do with the discussion, but it makes me chuckle to watch her do this. Of course usually if I ask her to park out, she acts like she dosent know what im talking about.
Colleen
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:50 am:

Fran,
It does not take that long to pick a leg up! You should have it picked up within very few seconds of dismounting, not minutes.
After that, it does not matter how long it takes to strap it, since the horse will already be on three legs.
Yes, she'll be very pleased to get rid of the rider, only to realise soon that it is a bit more uncomfortable than she initially thought.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 2:37 pm:

Lots of good points here ... just wanted to add my 2 cents worth because it has always worked for me ..
I use a series of cues, each a little firmer than the previous and the first is always the desired cue. For the go forward cue, I simply want to give a little rein and lean a little forward in the saddle. I give this cue first .. if the horse doesn't respond, I add a little "kiss" noise. If still no response, I give rein, kiss, and squeeze with legs. If still not getting forward movement, I repeat give rein, kiss, squeeze, and then finally I give about 4 solid kicks, and I mean solid. You or I can not hurt a horse with a good kick from the saddle, but we sure can be a nuisance. I always give the horse a chance to respond to the previous and less firm cue before going on, and I always do them in the same order. Eventually they learn that it is easier to respond early and avoid all the nuisance. Once again, the key is time. You got to remember that the goal is not to get the movement "right now" but to get it every time in the future. I have sat in the middle of a field with just me and my horse for 45 minutes, but I rode him home in the direction I wanted to go. I also ncorporate the neck flexes for movement. As a last resort, I will dismount and play a little game we learn early in round penning. I move the horse rapidly to the left, to the right, and backward, and forward repeating several times in each direction. The horse really hates this quick movement back and forth. I then remount and go through the cues again. I have gotten very tired and impatient myself, but I have never had to leave a horse in the field and walk home... Just some thoughts. I will try the leg tie next time ... have seen it done but never done it myself.
DT
Member:
Alden

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 2:51 pm:

A friend of mine has a saying, “what the mouth says, the ear hears”, Dina touched on it also, saying your horse is mean influences your attitude towards the horse. Besides, if the horse were really mean, then my advice is, get rid of it; but I doubt she really is.

Ever notice the more you want a horse to do something the more they don’t want to? A simple example, try and make a young horse stand still. Talk about an exercise in futility! The more you try make them stand still the more they dance around. But if you approach the problem around about and every time they move you make them move more, pretty soon standing very still looks really good to them.

I think she missed some training, our horses are taught that I control their feet (speed and direction) using a round pen.

The other way is like Christo’s approach of making stopping an undesirable thing. Keep a positive attitude, just say to your self when she stops, “Hey thanks for reminding me we need more work on x, y or z.” And then work on something, suppling, backing, lateral exercises or what ever. Just work positively and hard on some other area of training. After an appropriate amount of time go back to the lope, but stop before she decides to and work some more on something else. Then more lope, stop and more work, in varying durations; pretty soon loping will look like the better option.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 3:56 pm:

There are numerous other approaches to this stubborness, it is a matter of taste which one you choose.
One is to just sit there, no shouting, no kicking, just stiffen the reins a tiny bit tight and keep them there. Most horses will be annoyed and fight into the unfair rein.
Another trick, if you can do it mounted, is to crank the girth up a hole or two every time they stop. They dig that pretty fast.
When frozen and definitely not wanting to move is also a nice chance to finally pull that mane

Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 4:03 pm:

If worse comes to worst, take a nap in the saddle. I really did that once, and it took the #@!%* of a horse fourty minutes to decide to move!
Member:
Megster

Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 2:43 pm:

Jennifer, your post made me smile as I have never come across the stopping dead thing before with any horse but my own - although I understand racehorses can learn this delightful trick too. My mare has attitude and lots of it. I bought her a year ago and just hacked about quite a lot for about four months before taking her to the local riding school for some lessons and some schooling. Because she was unfit for that type of intensive work, she was finding it difficult. Her first trick was to stop, from walk or trot, and throw her body about wildly. There was no choice but to sit this out, as uncomfortable as it was. She would throw in one of these fits about every five minutes or so and then continue with her work when she realised she wasn't going to get away with it. I thought I could cope with this and would just gradually work her through it. Then after about a month of weekly lessons and persevering with this attitude my friend took her into an instructor led schooling session and unfortunately pushed her a step too far, getting her to do shoulder-in type movements on a circle and then asked her to canter. She'd thrown a couple of wobblers and my friend just ignored them and continued...until she asked her to canter. She did a lovely canter, canter, canter and then without any warning just stopped dead, slamming her head down between her front legs. My friend flew off like a dart - it was awful! After that she learned that this movement stopped her having to do the work being asked of her and she had succeeded in what she was trying to achieve. I found myself riding defensively and lost confidence. Each time after that incident I asked her for a canter in the school she would take two strides and then stop dead, again slamming her head down. I had her checked out and like your horse, nothing was wrong. My solution was that I either sell her or treat her as a challenge. I decided to try and make her work enjoyable. I started on the ground asking her to do a range of movements - back, sideways, through cones etc, and when she did good, I would praise her out loud in a very exaggerated way, patting her, telling her how fabulous she was and then giving her a treat. She learned when I was pleased with her and would eventually strive to do well. I then started to hack her out and regularly ask her for a canter in a straight line and with every stride I would say out loud 'canter, canter, canter, etc to keep her going in the same pace' and when she had taken a few strides praise her with my voice very loudly which she associated with doing well, as per the ground work. Every time she cantered nicely I would go all out to praise the behaviour. Then I started in the school with a similar approach. When she worked nicely, the same loud verbal rewards would be used consistently and when she was naughty I would show her I was not pleased by changing my tone and sometimes giving her a tap with the whip behind my leg. With the canter, again with every stride I would say 'canter, canter, canter' over and over so that she kept a good rhythmn and knew exactly what I was looking for, combined with loads of loud praise. This horse is now wonderful, we have a really positive relationship and she wants to work 'with' me rather than against. She still has attitude and has to be reminded frequently of the rules, as you would expect with a dominant mare, but I am now able to channel that in my favour. Take her back to basics, try and make her work fun rather than a chore and give her lots of breaks and a long rein inbetween good work. I'm sure she will come good for you. Mare's can be so misunderstood but my own experience is that they love to be in favour with their owners and to be rewarded. By working against you she is making her own life more difficult and no horse really wants this. I personally don't agree with the tying of the leg, it wouldn't have worked for my horse and would have damaged the trust in our relationship. However, each horse is different and so you have to decide whats best for your horse. I do agree though, that few horses are truly 'mean' deep down, and just need to be shown the right way.
Sarah
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 4:59 pm:

What a positive story, Sarah. I enjoyed reading it! Reminds me of learning how your kids' minds work and applying creative solutions based on their individual needs....
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 9:01 pm:

Sarah,
That was another trick my arab did the first year I owned him. I have only let one other person ride him. When she did ( very experienced rider) he did the same thing with her. She came off and was very badly bruised. I fortunatly catch him 99% of the time. He did it the first month I had him. He was green broke with only 30 days under saddle. He spooked, tried to bolt, then threw his head down. I came off. I thought to myself I am too old to start training youngsters again. But hey through all his tests, he has tried them all. He is now turning out to be one of the smartest fastest learning horses I have ever had. I am to scared to let anyone ride him as I know he will give them one of his little tests. He is not a bad or mean horse just a very smart arab. I love his spunk.
Member:
Jrisch

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 1:13 pm:

I finally got time to log back on and read the posts. Christos, your posts made me smile, and hit the nail right on the head. Yes, she is extremely arrogant. I don't think that by thinking she is mean, I convey that attitude toward her. Even though she is the way she is, I love and adore her, and she knows it. We do have a bond - she won't even eat if I go out of town. I will have someone video tape me to see if I'm giving her odd or conflicting signals - that's a great idea. If all checks out, I will try tying the leg up. I am laughing just thinking of what she will do. And by the way, I do also give her a series of cues. I never just all out kick her to get her to go. Thanks all for your advice. I will keep you posted. Due to all the rain and snow we've had, the footing is so horrible in my arena I haven't been able to ride for some time.
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