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Discussion on Saddle pads
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 10:04 am:
Does anyone have thoughts on saddle pads ment to alleviate pressure spots etc. My arab is now 7 and is starting to hate being saddled. He back is sore after riding. I have checked and rechecked his saddle fit. It doesnt pinch, slip is correctly balanced. The gullet is correct and he has cair padding. He has a very short back and I went thru sooooooo many saddles to find one that fits ok. I cant afford a new one and this one still seems to fit except for his starting to try snd bite when being cinched and for the tender back after being ridden. Ideas please help.
Katrina
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 10:47 am:
I went to a saddle fitting clinic over the weekend sponsored by the VA Quarter Horse Association, and the speaker was extremely informative...he works for Weatherbeeta and recommends Bates and Wintec saddles, and the CAIR system. From what you're stating, based on his presentation, you should keep looking for another saddle....the consequences of poor saddle fit were really sobering...causes "welding" of your horses back to the pressures of the poor fit...and it doesn't take as long as you think it might. Pain alone is worth a continued search...I wish there was some way you could have access to the info in the presentation. It was really easy to understand and made great sense as it focused on conformation as it relates to saddle fit...the guy's name is Lane Marvin, but I'm sure you could find a qualified saddle fitter where you are. I think it's worth it....I could not bear the thought of my horse being in pain while being ridden. Incidentally, he explained that pads will not fix the problem long term. The pressure will continue bearing down through the pads. Good luck.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 11:25 am:
Thanks. I cannot find a saddle fitter in my area. Believe me I tried and tried. This saddle fit wonderfully for almost 2 years before he started to show signs of pain. It still looks like a perfect fit. The saddle blanket has even dirt and sweat marks. It looks like the perfect saddle fit. I have read everything possible on saddle fit etc years ago when I first had problems trying to fit him. I would love to have him checked out by a saddle fitter. I cant find one. Thanks for your thoughts.
Katrina
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 12:10 pm:
Hello Katrina, I've had years of saddle fitting problems with my Morgan - I have been through many new saddles (at least 10) and lost many hundreds of pounds - more likely over a thousand(I'm from the UK). The saddles were fitted by qualified saddle fitters - and my horse has had problem after problem. I became so disillusioned with the fitters I thought I could do no worse myself.
The main problem was lumps coming up after being ridden, which I eventually equated with the saddle being too big/wide and there being too much movement. One of the saddlers fitted a Bates CAIR saddle to my horse saying it was a good fit. Well I have to say this saddle was the worst of the whole lot, my horse got so sore he nearly sat down when I ran my fingers over his back. He subsequently came up with hard lumps which did not go away and he had these lumps for nearly two years.
I came to the conclusion my horse needed a saddle with wide, flat panels and one which sat still on his back. I bought another saddle, this time a beautiful buffalo hide Arabian Saddle Co GP (and the most expensive of the lot). I thought this was finally the right one, it sat flat on his back, the panels were nice and wide, but after a few months my horse started getting sore and the lumps got very prominent again. I was so despondent at having lost yet more money, when someone suggested I try a remedial saddle fitter called Kay Humphries.
This was the best thing I ever did. I took the horse and saddle to her, and the first thing she said was 'there's your problem' - and pointed out the point and balance straps. Many new saddles are made with these and I couldn't see how they would make that much difference, but she said she would replace them with conventional straps and go from there.
Well, the transformation was amazing. The soreness went, the lumps have completely disappeared and my horse is happy to offer lengthened strides again. I would never have believed that p&b straps could have done so much damage, but Kay said that they are absolutely dreadful: they act as a fulcrum causing much pressure in the wither and cantle areas. Basically they are built in with the aim of keeping the saddle as still as possible for the rider, but don't take into account the comfort of the horse.
Of course this may not be the problem in your case, but I thought I would add my own experiences here.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 12:10 pm:
You say that saddle/pad worked for 2 years, maybe that isn’t the problem. Were there any other changes around the time he started showing soreness? Maybe a new ferrier, a different bit, diet change, or different riders, etc? Has his muscular shape changed recently? A new training regime maybe?
Just some thoughts.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 1:36 pm:
Hi
Gill what are the straps you are talking about. Can anyone change these. I am not sure what you mean. It sounds like something I would look into.
Alden, He has changed shape. He has matured. He was a gangly 4-5 yr old when I got him. I have changed the gullet to fit his new shape. The pain was before and after gullet change.His ridding has changed over the winter months to just long 2-4 hour walking rides in the woods. I dont have an indoor arena so trotting and cantering are out untill the ice melts.The ground is snow covered so its hard work , but we only walk. He never builds a sweat. Farrier has changed, but his feet look great. No one else rides him but me. Diet is the same except for lots of extra hay. He was put on biotin 3 months ago because of a stone bruise in the fall, I started rideing him in old macs about 3 months ago also. Could it be the old macs? the biotin?
I only wish I knew.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 2:50 pm:
Gill, can you find us any picture of these p&l straps?
I am very interested in your comments, firstly because Kay Humphries' book on saddle fitting published by Allens is excellent, and also because I have had a long term minor problem with small pressure lumps with one of my horses.
All the best
Imogen (Co. Cork)
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 2:53 pm:
Katrina I am talking about the girth straps. On our English saddles we have three girth straps situated under the saddle flap next to each other (they may be called something different in the US). Point and balance straps replace the two outer girth straps; the point straps are positioned much further forward towards the pommel and the balance straps are placed towards the cantle end. When tightened they exert much pressure over the withers and the cantle area instead of centrally - so you can imagine if the saddle isn't a good fit, the potential discomfort to the horse. Even if the saddle is a good fit, as in my case, they obviously can still exert an unacceptable amount of pressure.
Another word about CAIR, in my experience I found it hard and unforgiving and not able to mould to the horse's shape. If the saddle isn't right for the horse, altering the gullet won't make it a better fit.
It sounds as if your horse has changed shape so much the saddle no longer fits; the pain over his back is certainly indicative of that.
I hope you can get your problem sorted soon!
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 2:56 pm:
Katrina--I emailed the woman who organized the clinic I attended to see if you could get in touch with the presenter. He does travel--and even if that isn't an option, he may have some resources for you. He is a graduate of Cornell University in Horse Science and presents current research in the field...I don't know if this will lead anywhere, but if I can get you two in touch, I will happily do that.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 8:59 pm:
Thanks Gill, much appreciated. Do you know if the girth straps on the wintec all purpose 2000 are regular or have the p&L straps.?
Thank you so much for your comments. I am not sure what do do I hate seeing my horse in pain.
Terri, That would be sooooo wonderful. Thank you so much I need help. That is wonderful.
You guys are great. love this site.
My e-mail is kturner1999@optonline.net
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 10:50 pm:
According to my local saddle fitter's web site (https://www.saddlefit.us), there's a MSA certified saddle fitter in NJ :
Teri Miller
908-234-9070
terim@verizon.net
The Master Saddlers Association has a certification process for saddle fitters, and I have been absolutely delighted with the work my saddle fitter has done. I am truly fortunate to have a certified saddle fitter just a few miles from the barn, so I arranged for her to come out last summer and spend a day working with whoever was interested. Just amazing! (And she has Arabs herself, so she was intimately familiar with their special needs. )
Her website also has some good general info on saddle fitting.
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 11:05 am:
Hi Katrina, I am pretty sure the Wintec 2000 has regular girth straps (not point and balance). You can easily see anyway by looking at the billet arrangement.
Some saddles have a point strap only, and two regular straps (billets) in the centre. This isn't so bad as you then can use the central ones without having to change the whole lot. I'll try and find a link for you about saddle fitting.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 1:39 pm:
Hi,
Thanks Sandra, I e-mailed her and will see what happens. I might have to find a group to make it cheaper.
Thanks Gill, I thought they are regular. I wont use the first strap and see if that helps. I spent about 4 hours on different sites about saddle fitting and from everything they say my saddle looks like it fits. I did put my saddle slightly more forward today. I always worry about his shoulder. It was very close to his blade but not touching. His back is so short. He seemed better today, a few more rides might help. When I slide it to its natural position. I think it sits to close to his loins. Maybe I should lose weight so I can fit in a kids saddle. That would fit him much better. thanks for all your help. I appreciate it.
Katrina
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 2:17 pm:
Katrina -- I'm sorry that I was unable to obtain any more information on the saddle fitter I spoke about earlier in the post...I had hoped to at least make available some of the resources he had used in the presentation he gave.
Also, while listening to Rick Lamb's "The Horse Show" recently (weekly radio show), I heard an advertisement for "the corrector," a saddle pad developed to "eliminate" pressure points. It appears to have been developed by the Ortho Flex guy. I know there is a wide range of opinions on Ortho Flex, but I wanted to pass the info along to you just in case it might be useful. You can read about this pad on the net at www.thecorrector.net. Best of luck in your continued search for best fit!
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 3:16 pm:
Your story sounds exactly like mine. My now 9 year old Arab has had the same problems with saddle fit since I got him at 4 years. As I worked him on hills and distance, his shape changed until he finally started acting up when saddled. I realized that his saddle no longer fit his new shape. He is now much bulkier in the shoulders and chest area. I tried many English saddles old and new. My trainer had an old English made dressage saddle that was the best fit, but even that created some behavior problems when riding. I always had to use lots of leg and keep at him to move forward in arena work. I also got a Wintec with CAIR panels and put the largest gullet in. That was okay, but still he didn't seem totally comfortable. I watched a program on saddle fitting once and the fitter pointed out that some horses change shape as they work, so if the saddle fits at rest, it may not fit at work. That seems to be my problem. When I ride somewhat collected, his back and belly pull up and change the saddle fit so I am constantly having to use more leg to keep him going. After more saddle research and frustration, I finally decided to ride bareback. I was pretty timid and unbalanced, but my trainer rides most all her training horses bareback and convinced me to try it. She has a simple system for learning balance and in two lessons I was hooked. The best part, my horse now moves out with joy. He also quit doing all the little evasion moves he would do in the past after one half hour of riding. I pick up the reins and he just barrels along forward swinging freely at a wonderful trot for as long as I want to ride. I have been riding bareback for over year now and he still loves it. It works well for me too; my knees don't hurt and it's so fast and easy to go for a quick ride. The only problem is on long distance trails because I can't carry gear with me. My balance is so much better too. When riding my young Arab bareback alone one day, he got very frustrated and nervous and bucked two huge bucks and a four-legged prong. I stayed on and decided I have finally become a pretty good rider. Just last week I put the Wintec on my older horse for the first time in a year. My riding position and balance was better that ever before and he moved comfortably in it. I still prefer bareback, but am considering a treeless saddle for the occasional times when I really want to be in a saddle. When I try the treeless, I will let you know how that works. If you find a saddle that works, please let me know. Good Luck! Gail
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Member:
Kel4s
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 3:37 pm:
Gail,
What is your trainer's system? I'd really like to know.
Kellie
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 4:34 pm:
Hi Kellie,
My trainer uses a neck strap to start. You can use an old stirrup leather which is somewhat stiff. I found a yoga cotton strap is softer and easier to hold with the reins. You put it loosely around the horse's neck so that when you pull back on it you have a few inches of slack and your hands are in the proper position where the reins would be held. Drape your legs around your horse so the thighs and mid calf are in contact with the barrel. Your leg position should be fairly upright with slight forward calf and the calf remains on the horse's side. This position helps you maintain your center and balance as the horse moves. If your knees are slightly bent you can then give the horse a little tap with your heels if need be as your legs are always in position. I ride English so I am used to holding the reins with two hands. Pull back on the neck strap and hold it firmly with both hands and the reins in the proper English position. You can bridge the reins across the withers if that helps you maintain better balance at first. As you start to walk with the horse pull back on the strap to anchor your seat. Your hands should be in the exact spot where you want to hold the reins. You may need to adjust the length of the strap. You can pull quite hard without it bothering the horse. As you begin to trot, keep pulling back on the strap/reins and make sure the reins are the proper length for that gate and headset. The proper strap length will keep you from pulling on the fixed reins. Maintain the side calf on the barrel so that when you bounce slightly your legs keep you centered and balanced. Soften your seat so you move with the horse and lean back slightly. The strap helped my confidence immensely and gave me and my horse much more security and stability. After several lessons with the strap, my balance was so much better that I couldn't adjust my horses headset with the reins and hold onto the strap so I stopped using the strap in the arena. When I rode on the trail, I put on the strap but rarely used it. The trick is really to keep your legs placed correctly on the horse so that movement doesn't cause you to lose your center or balance. It can take a month or so to get that feeling just right. After that lots of bareback riding will just help you get better and better. My trainer still uses a strap on stallions or hyper horses. That way if you feel you are getting into trouble, you can hold the strap with one or both hands and the reins. Setting the reins with the strap gives the horse confidence and you don't pull on his mouth so he can relax. Keeping your hands low near the withers helps with greenies and if they buck, you are right on the withers already so they can't toss you over their head. It helps to have a steady older horse, too. My young guy is so fast and quick that he is still quite a challenge for me bareback. He also responds to every butt twitch or leg move I make and stops, but I have become a much better rider because of it. I reread this but it may still be confusing. Let me know if I can explain something better. And don't give up. I started riding bareback at 55 and never thought I could do it much less love it the way I do. So do my horses. They are both bareback and barefoot. Good Luck.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 6:07 pm:
Gail, that is so neat!! Bareback is one of the best ways I know to teach balance. Some horses have backs that are too uncomfortable to sit, though. Also, some horses get sore from the pressure points of our seat bones pressing in on their back muscles in such a small area. In those cases, a bareback pad will help . . .
For those folks who just can't comfortably sit bareback on their horses, you can try using a synthetic English saddle with stirrups removed, and riding on a longe line with the reins on the horse's neck and arms out to the side or in a rein-holding position.
If you are confident that you can stop your horse without jerking his mouth, you can also learn great balance by riding at the walk, trot, and canter in a riding ring without holding the reins.
Happy Riding.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 6:08 pm:
P.S. . . . If you try to ride in the arena without holding the reins, don't worry about steering your horse . . . just enjoy feeling the gaits and concentrate on moving your body with that of the horse . . .
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 8:25 pm:
Thanks for al the wonderful advise. I do have an appointment for the saddle fitter however she said that even if a saddle is fitted some horses will still have the saddle slide forward and still recomends point billet straps. After much research I have decided no way. I am think of cancelling my apointment.Still not sure I am so undecided. I have in the meantime bought Airider saddle pads guaranteed not to slip saddle or pad and order custom memory foam to put in between 2 layers of non slip.
I have widened his gullet yet again and with a crupper he is moving like he should. I have noticed one shoulder is built
more than the other. The saddle fitter is a sales person for a saddle company and I am worried I will be talked into something I cant afford. If it was a good thing I would be happy to pay but I am not sure. Especially now I have him comfortable. Worry worry wory.
The bareback thing is wonderful. I ride bareback once a week not always on my arab as he will buck even if I slide forward onto his shoulder down steep hills, I use the bareback pads when riding bareback for the horses comfort. I ride an old spunky gelding bareback , we walk trot and canter. I do it for my balance, however my super sensative arab is only good bareback on the flat. What a fussy horse, but hey at least he tells me it hurts instead of suffering like most horses. I agree bareback is the way to go. If I knew I could stay on I would ride him bareback all the time. On the old guy I cannot get unglued maybe because he is starting to get sway backed. We even gallop on occasion. My round arab is harder to stay on. If I fall off he will never let me forget it. I am waiting on info from the company that makes arabian saddles. I will let you know if I get the saddle fitter or not and what happens. Thank you all
Katrina
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 3:04 am:
Hi Katrina, just a word about Arabian Saddle Co saddles - this was the saddle I had problems with, it was the Sylvan GP and they are manufactured with P&B straps. If you are interested in this saddle then I would ask if you could have it made with traditional straps, as I had no problem after that.
Although I still have this saddle I am waiting to buy a treeless saddle, Kay Humphries is producing one which will not be cheap but it sounds like be just what I want for my horse. It looks exactly like a normal saddle but has no tree.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 9:35 am:
Gill, Katrina,
The front girth strap of an english saddle is very important. It is stiched on a separate piece of webbing which is attached to the tree in a different, very secure way, and I think it should be used at all times for safety's sake.
This front strap is, actually, what keeps the saddle in place.
The two back ones are usually attached to a wider strap of webbing a bit further back , so I believe using either one does not make such a difference. As there's no horn on an english saddle to work a rope from, I believe the back strap is only useful to prevent the cantle from lifting when the horse arches its back.
I also believe a saddle should work beautifully on the flat with just the front strap used. If not, I'd call it a poor fit.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 10:34 am:
Christos, Are you talking about P and B straps or the regular front girth strap that 95% of english saddle have. The P and B straps are only on about 5% or less of english saddles. I have never seen them just heard and started reading about them.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 10:38 am:
Thanks Terri for all your help. The pad looks good. Still deciding on ether or not to get the saddle fitter
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 10:55 am:
Christos, I am not talking about the front girth strap, the point strap is a totally different thing and situated right at the front of the saddle near the points. It is usually added as an addition to the three girth straps, to anchor the saddle more firmly.
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 1:16 pm:
My saddle fitter is also a sales person for a saddle company, but neither I nor any of my friends that worked with her felt any pressure to buy her brand. (Knowing she was also a distributor, that was a worry of mine before I met her.) Hope it works out for you.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 3:24 pm:
Katrina,
I am only referring to regular straps, not p&b.
You say in your post no.182, Feb 25 that you're thinking of using just the back straps on your regular saddle, which I believe is uncomfortable for the horse (saddle movement) and unsafe: The back straps are not meant to take full load, and the saddle can rotate very easily if the front strap is not used, especially on a horse with low withers.
Gill is, of course, right, she was only talking about using the back straps on a p&b system, not a regular saddle.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 8:47 pm:
Thanks Sandra, I am going to get her out and not cancel. If I dont I will be for ever worring.
Thanks also Cristos, I realized that after I did a lot of research on the P&B straps. That makes a lot of sense. Fortunatly I have always used the front strap.
Thanks to everyone for all your help. I am learning. I never had a horse so expresive to discomfort. In a way its a blessing. I would rather that than have one suffer untill a worse problem ocours. How I love arabians. He teachs me every day.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 6:52 pm:
Gill, Why are you getting a treeless. Are you still having problems with the arabian saddle now that the P&B straps are removed. Just curious.
Katrina
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 4:47 am:
Hi Katrina, I have always liked the concept of the treeless but did not like the models on offer (Torsion, Ansur), and during research found some people had slight problems with certain aspects of treeless such as the stirrup bars digging in. I got the Arabian in the meantime, and although it is fine for my horse it is not 100% comfortable for me! Must just be my shape as other people find it okay.
Then I heard Kay Humphries was producing a treeless and am very interested as it is shaped almost exactly like a traditional English saddle. I sat on a similar version at an Equine Event in the UK and was very impressed with it. Kay's saddles are not cheap but they are of superb quality and comfort and the only reason I didn't get one is because I didn't know about her before I got the Arabian. I know Kay would address every single possible problem and would not market a product until she was 100% satisfied everything was perfect. So I am waiting eagerly to hear when this saddle is available!
I may have an Arabian GP for sale if you are interested, LOL!
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 4:53 am:
Katrina I am going to try and upload an attachment of the Flexion Supreme, which is not Kay Humhphries' saddle but another similar treeless, made by Heather Moffett. Forgive me if if doesn't work as I've not tried this before!
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Member:
Fpony
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 7:41 am:
Gill,
What does the underside of this saddle look like? do you know how it is different than the Ansu other than appearance? One would think there aren't too many options as treeless is treeless, right?
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Member:
Fpony
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 7:41 am:
Gill,
What does the underside of this saddle look like? do you know how it is different than the Ansur other than appearance? One would think there aren't too many options as treeless is treeless, right?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 8:17 am:
Gill, Yes I saw these saddles and they do look great. I was asking because I was worried your horse was still uncomfortable in the arabian saddle.
These treeless look better than the ansur,and I have heard horses get sore from them (ansur). Do you know when Kays is out I have been to their web site has great info. Thanks so much for all your help and info I am learning alot from this discussion.
Thank you Katrina
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 4:40 am:
Kim, the underside of the saddle is covered with serge (a type of felt) which is supposed to be much kinder and softer and moulds better on the horse's back. It can be made with leather if you prefer. It is built up by the use of clever strapping and webbing so that is has a proper gullet which clears the back, unlike some of the other treeless which sit directly on the spine.
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