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Discussion on Canter Transitions
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 8:12 am:
Besides the usual exercises to teach the horse to canter from the aids, have any of you found a particular or new exercise that works well for you?
Thanks, Andrea
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 9:15 am:
There are many ways to teach a horse to canter, Andrea. All of them include at least one cue/aid, which can actually be whatever you choose.
Which aids you choose to teach the horse to respond to depends on the type of riding, the training level of horse and rider and, of course, rider's and horse's preferences.
Can you be a bit more specific as to what you consider a usual exercise?
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 2:24 pm:
Hi Christos,
I was thinking of the usual exercises you might find in riding books for novice horses. Below are some that I have used, but I wondered if anyone had great results from other exercises.
a) Asking the horse for the transition going into a corner. b)Staying on a 20m circle and asking for the transition c)Asking from leg yield on the long side as you reach the far corner d)Asking from a shallow serpentine on a long side. e)Asking on the last loop of a 3-loop serpentine. I know there are countless others.
Thanks again. I hope I was a little clearer
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 2:51 pm:
Hi Andrea
I don't ask for canter in young horses going INTO the corner, I ask for it coming OUT of the corner. Young horses need to readjust their balance through corners and you do not want to ask for canter before the horse has adjusted to and maintained the bend. Asking too early will cause him to feel off balance and rattled which is something you want to avoid at all costs.
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 3:25 pm:
Hi Sue,
Thank you, I stand corrected. I think what I was trying to say is ask going into a corner and pray to the great canter gods to please let me get the transition on the way out of the corner ...just a little humor.
But seriously, would you ask on the second corner on the short side, or the first corner? I am just thinking that when you start to ask, the horse as a novice takes more strides than a schooled horse to connect the aids with a response...right/wrong? If you ask going out of the second corner on the short side, are you already halfway up the long side before you get a response, and then because the horse might have lost the bend, would have more of a chance to either not take the transition, or pick up the wrong lead?
Thanks again Sue I will try your suggestion
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 3:50 pm:
Hi Andrea
On a very green young horse I ask on the first corner going into the short side once the horse has rebalanced itself to adapt to the bend. That way if there are some in between steps prior to the actual canter depart, you can maintain the bend through the short side before going into the second corner.
In addition, I reinforce the ridden aids with a verbal command the same as I do when teaching a horse to canter on the lunge. Once the horse understands the canter aids, I dispense with the verbal reinforcement.
Aren't young horses fun!
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 4:43 pm:
Hi Sue,
Thanks for the sanity check! Thats what I thought you meant. Do you use any other exercises?
I agree, young horses are so much fun, and very humbling...God bless them all!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 5:28 pm:
Sue has a good point here, I also prefer asking for a canter depart on the exit of the first corner into the short side.
A young horse finds bending correctly through corners already difficult, it would be rude and confusing, I think, to ask for canter going into the corner, where it is preparing to negotiate the turn.
The main reason we first canter the short side is that, as you mentioned already, it is short enough for the horse to maintain bend, but also that it is short enough to prevent overexcitement. Some horses rush the long side if you first teach them there.
I think the following is universal: You negotiate the turn in posting trot. On the exit from the corner, you sit the trot and ask for canter on the second sitting step. That is one(post), two(sit), three(sit). On three, you ask for canter. If you were posting on the correct diagonal, "three" should coincide with the outside hind pushing off, and that's the leg you want to jump into canter with.
If you find it difficult to ask from sitting trot, a cheat that works sometimes is to post on the wrong diagonal and ask for the transition when you touch the saddle. But posting on the wrong diagonal is unfriendly to the horse, so don't make a habit of it!
Keep counting the trot steps if the horse does not canter on "three". You ask again on "five". If no canter yet, I'd suggest quitting that side, going on trotting and make another attempt on the other short side. I find that there is no point in nugging the horse continuously through the whole short side. You want to make it sensitive to your aids, no ?
As a reinforcement, I prefer a dressage whip instead of voice. You just tip the outside hind if it does not jump into canter when you sit on that leg. Don't whip the horse, and don't scare him, careful, you just want to show him that you want something more from that leg.
I also find it important that you do not canter any turns before the horse is strong enough to maintain its bend through the long side. The canter to trot transition on the end of the short side is just as important as the canter depart, and something many people neglect. Remember, you don't only want your horse to jump into canter gracefully, you want it to jump out of it just as beautifully, and you have to teach that too.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 6:17 pm:
Good points, Christos. You are a more eloquent writer than I am!
The reason I use my voice initially is that I find that young horses (especially fillies) if started properly on the lunge, find it soothing to hear a familiar command given. Gives them clarity. Our voices are powerful tools and too many riders either don't use them or only use them in a negative way. It takes just as much time to give a compliment as a reprimand and there aren't too many of us who don't like to hear a compliment now and again.
For the young horse that is solid on the canter aids and balanced through the corners, another good exercise is to come across the arena (for example EXB) in trot and ask for canter in the turn at B onto the new long side. But like I said, this is not an exercise for a really green horse.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 7:31 pm:
Of course, Sue,
Voice is a beautiful and powerful tool. I generally prefer the whip, as I think it is a clearer cue and a better timed one. But it actually depends on the horse, some are jumpy or deaf to the whip and some are jumpy or deaf to voice...
Once you mentioned the EXB line, let me mention that I always use it, from the first walk, for changes of lead. The horse learns that there's always a change of lead when we go from X to B or E. That helps it prepare for the new bend. When we move to trot, it understands very quickly that changing my posting at X means an oncoming change of lead and it adjusts for the new bend with almost no inside leg. In sitting trot, later, sitting heavier on the inside hind is almost enough to produce the bend. So later yet, in canter, the horse already knows its bends and its leads well enough to produce a flying change with just a shift of your weight...
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2004 - 10:39 pm:
Hello Sue and Christos,
I think I more prepare for the transition on the first part of the turn, and then ask. But I do ask on the first corner on the short side. Then if I am not successful, I prepare again and ask again half way through the next corner. Reading your posts, you are saying use the first corner and most of the short side for your preparation, and then when you are asking the horse for the depart coming out of the second corner it will be much easier for the horse. (Why do I have visions of you two banging your heads against the wall?)
Thank you for your wonderful advice...
Andrea
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2004 - 5:20 pm:
Hi, Andrea,
I'm finished banging my head  , now let's give it another try :
Red line is trot, blue line is canter. The red dots is where you should ask for canter (hopefully, only the first dot will be needed)
You will notice that you can not fit more than 3-4 canter steps on the blue line. That is exactly the idea. You have no space to fiddle around. You have to get serious. You have to get the canter on the first dot.
So when you reach it, press with your left leg on the girth, push the horse forward with your left seatbone and demand the right hind to push you into canter by pressing with your right leg behind the girth.
Remember the timing? One post, two sit, three sit and press.
This is presented going counterclockwise, ie on the left hand. That's on purpose, as most horses find the left canter easier. So that's what you teach first. Please, reverse everything if your horse goes better on the right hand.
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Member:
Fpony
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2004 - 5:42 pm:
Wow, great diagram! Kim
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Member:
Jeans
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2004 - 9:11 pm:
Hi, Christos-I've seen and read numerous tapes and books on timing of the aids, (then tried to analyze while riding the proper time to give them), but nothing has come close to the clarity with which you describe them. Thank you! No wonder I was always on the wrong lead! It wasn't my position, (which is the only advice I've been given) it was that I was always giving the aid while the INSIDE hind leg was pushing off, since that is the actual first beat of the canter gait. Your explanation makes so much sense! This seems so basic yet the information is so hard to come by...Again, Thank you!!!
And Thank you, Kim, for getting Christos to give us that diagram!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2004 - 5:11 am:
Thanks for your kind comments, Jeani,
Though the timing of aids is a controversial subject (I am surprised this thread is not already 200 posts long), it is generally accepted that the first step of the canter is the outside hind.
The outside hind first accelerates the mass of horse and rider forward. Then comes the diagonal, with the inside hind hopefully well under the horse to support and balance the weight, and last the inside fore, used much like a straight lever to send the whole mass in the air.
If you ask for a canter depart with the inside hind pushing off, the horse will have to balance the accelerating mass by bringing the outside hind under him, which gives a bend to the outside and results in counter-canter.
Let me mention here that all these are general guidelines, aimed more at presenting the general structure of thinking regarding these exercises, rather than rules that have to be followed.
Horses vary greatly in conformation, character and habits, and the rider must adjust to their preferences. It is the individual horse that dictates the best approach, and it must be respected.
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Member:
Fpony
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2004 - 8:14 am:
Jeani,I've only been lurking and getting what I need from this post! You need to thank Andrea. Christo, you have done a great job of making this so straight forward. Thanks for taking all the muddle out! Kim
Kim
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Member:
Jeans
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2004 - 10:35 pm:
(yes, Christos, I had my order of leg falls mixed up, as I 've been told to always give the aid when the inside hind leg is under but that is not the actual first beat of canter.) I suppose a little more analyzing and I should have figured it out, but when I'm thinking, "let's see, my hip is moving forward and in, so the leg must be under thus the time to give the aid--oh. wait three steps have gone by and now where am I?" You see how confusing it can all get for someone like me who has to analyze everything, do it slowly in my mind, then speed it up, as opposed to, "Just doing it by instinct and feel". Riding to me is like playing music where one learns the notes and where they all are and practices the loudness and softness, fastness and slowness of it, and which notes all flow together until it becomes so familiar that only then can you go by "instinct and feel" to improvise, so to speak. You have to perfect it before you can pull it out of a hat on a whim, if that makes sense. And it is very reassuring that there are others who actually have a "system", instead of just having to be born a talented rider. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but all I am trying to say is, thanks for giving people like me who are 'untalented riders but willing to work hard' not just a tip here and there, but hope and encouragement that we can continue to grow in our passion of riding. And thanks, Kim, and Andrea! Jeani.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2004 - 6:00 am:
Dear Jeani,
It kind of embarrasses me to be thanked again and again for these suggestions. You see, I am only relaying information gained from great people's life-long commitment. They are the ones who deserve all the credit.
As for hope and encouragement on your way to excellence, along with some technical guidelines, let me suggest the study of Col. Alois Podhajsky's books: "My horses, My teachers" and "The complete training of horse and rider".
You will find in these books that all riders, from cavalry men to the riding masters in the Spanish School of Vienna to Olympic gold medalists, face the same problems, the same joy and sadness, the same satisfaction and frustration with you and me. You will also find that it is not their talent that takes these people to the highest levels. It is only their faith, devotion and dedicated work.
Christos
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Member:
Jeans
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2004 - 10:11 am:
I'll be sure to pick those up.
Jeani.
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Member:
Andrea1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 8:23 am:
Hi everyone,
I feel guilty that I have not posted for a few days, but I was at the beach!
Christos you are amazing! The diagram is fantastic and makes everything so clear. I too have been taught differently. I will work very hard to reprogram my body to ask as the diagram shows, and with the new aids.
Thank you to everyone for posting. I thought this would be a good subject.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 3:16 pm:
Hi, Andrea,
It will be very helpful if you can watch a video of a trot to canter transition, frame by frame. You will see very clearly the outside hind initiating the canter by pushing hard enough to separate its trot diagonal, ie to send the inside fore in the air while the inside hind / outside fore are coming down to meet the ground.
Watching halt to canter transitions in slow motion may also help, though it takes a powerful horse to initiate a halt to canter transition with only one hind leg. Most horses use both hinds for that.
For the ones that find analysing video frames too much, watching canter pirouettes in dressage competitions should do. Canter pirouettes are one canter step at a time, and you can easily see the outside hind initiating each step.
All the best,
Christos
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 3:30 pm:
As for timing the aids, the principle is rather simple:
If you ask for more action from a hind leg when it's swinging, it will swing further under and, as a consequence, add bend to that side. If you ask for more action when it's pushing, it will push more, and, as a consequence, add bend to the opposite side.
So you always want to "tip" the inside hind when it's swinging and the outside hind when it's pushing.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 28, 2005 - 7:35 pm:
I enjoyed this discussion when it was posted, and would like to ask anyone interested when they teach the walk-canter as opposed to the trot-canter in your horses. I have always taught the trot-canter for the first two years at least with my dressage warmbloods, before asking for the transition from the walk. My young Connemara, however, wants to take the transition more quietly from the walk after 90 days under saddle. Any detriment in this as she builds her strength on the straight lines? She is headed for eventing and general enjoyment. Stacy
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 29, 2005 - 8:11 am:
They will walk/canter when they are physically capable of reaching through behind with out the forward momentum provided by the trot and also when they are no longer gawky. It will be different for every horse. If they are wanting to do so and are in sh ape (have been worked regularly) I see no reason not to allow them to walk/canter transition.
Reading through this made me wonder where Christos is. I have not seen a post from him in a while. Are you still out there Christos? We miss you.
Ella
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Member:
Sr26953
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 29, 2005 - 12:33 pm:
I agree with Ella. It doesn't surprise me that the more compact Connemara feels balanced enough and ready to do his W/C transition than a growing Warmblood. As Christos said, each horse is an individual and it is important to listen to the horse. I gave up on even getting the canter with my still growing 4 yo TB because she just couldn't get it together (or I was ineffective in helping her get it together). After 6 months I tried again and she is coming along just fine, almost ready for the W to C transition and flying lead changes.
Suzanne
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 29, 2005 - 10:44 pm:
My preference for cantering my young ones is along the straight side. If they get too rambunctious I turn them in on a circle. I have finally figured out why I do this. . . . I think. I have a harder time keeping them straight on the circle and with the babies they tend to fall in too much(probably because of my weak leg !). I actually have better luck getting the correct lead on the straight than on the turn. I am heading out right now to ride my girl and I am going to try Christos method of timing. Can we talk about timing for flying changes? I need help there too.
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