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Discussion on Rearing in crossties
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Member:
Kiwi
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004 - 7:05 pm:
Looking for some suggestions. My three year old, very large and imposing Hanovarian is very nervous in the wash stall. He immediately starts to move around and tries to corner a person with his body. He will often swing his head around and shove me when I get in his way. Now his adversion to the wash stall has lead to an adversion to picking up his hind feet. With his constant dancing, it makes it impossible to pick up his feet. If I do get his foot, he either rips it from my hand or worse yet rear up or try to fall down. He was shod for the first time two weeks ago which he was terrible and required a twitch and a chain. The farrier said that he would not shoe the horse unless he gets better or use drugs. Tying outside is a little better but in my opinion, he has little respect for me and my body and still dances around in the ties. Any suggestions?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004 - 7:58 pm:
Hi, Sandy,
Technically, your horse should be able to stand free and let you work on any part of his body . . . and the best way I've found to train them to do so, is to use the round pen. There are so many good trainers out there (and probably twice as many bad ones) who can help you with this problem. The round pen work (and I have learned from and adapted techiques from both John Lyons and Clinton Anderson) will teach respect on the ground and help you with all aspects of leading and handling. There are many forum discussions here that have information that will help you . . . If you have access to video tapes of either of those trainers or can attend a local clinic, I think you will find some answers there.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 9:50 am:
Sandy,
I would approach this as an issue of trust, not respect. Holly's advice is excellent, do search for information and books by John Lyons.
Until you have access to it, you have to patiently persuade him that it is ok to stand still for you, that nothing nasty will happen to him. You have also to patiently persuade him that he can actually balance on three legs, and that you'll not bite that leg off and run away with it. A bit at a time. No matter how self explanatory it may be to you, it takes time for a young horse to realise these things.
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Member:
Tlcstabl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 10:18 am:
Sandy,
I can also sympathize with your dilema. We had a young horse that gave us the same type of problem in the cross ties. We tried everything that we could think of -- round pen training, ground work, etc. -- his manners were impecible in every other way. In order to break him of this terrible habit, it only took one session (after we had exhausted every other method we could think of, watch, read about, etc.). In this session, I just put a stud chain over his nose. When he went up, I snapped it which immediately brought him down. He stood there, looked at me, I gave him my famous (and loud) "alpha mare" speech right in his surprized face, and, guess what, he has been an angel in the cross ties since. Maybe it was the final step in his realizing that I meant business (I'm 5'5" and he was 17 hands) and I wasn't going to let him get away with this behavior anymore. I certainly don't recommend this as your first avenue approach, but I was at my wits end and didn't want anyone to get hurt because of this behavior.
Just my two cents worth,
Sherry
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 10:24 am:
You've great advice already. Try to break the "learning" up into very very small increments and praise/reward the horse when you get the behavior you want. Frequent, short training sessions is best.
I was in a similar situation with a very young horse that needed corrective shoeing - and the drugs helped get the shoes on, but didn't teach her much about it as she was zoned out.
I was also limited by distance as to how frequently I could handle her.
I used a combination of operant conditioning (clicker training) and, when the farrier was there (for insurance), the "stableizer" which is advertised in some catalogs and like a war bridle to Dr. O. This was rather remarkable as it allowed us to omit the drugs and helped her to understand that we weren't harming her. I conditioned her to the device a couple of times before using it to re-shoe her. Both farrier and vet were rathered surprised at its effectiveness.
BTW, follow the instructions very precisely if you use it. I only needed mine a couple of shoeings and now have it tucked away for "emergency" use.
If your horse is reluctant to tie or cross tie, sometimes it is helpful to have a non-static situation that moves when he balks. For example, a second person at his head. Or elastic/ties with some give when he tugs. (I've even seen bicycle tires used for the "give.") In any case, it seems as if there is some give, a horse will stop pulling and relax some.
I've also had good luck with Linda Tellington Jones' TTEAM techniques if you want to research them.
Good luck.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 10:58 am:
A fried of mine had a horse that wouldn't stand still when tied and was in constant motion the entire time. What she did was what John Lyons recommended - tie him to a stable object (tree, sturdy fence post, etc.) where he won't get hurt and leave him. Of course stay in the area to make sure nothing happens but after a few hours, he realized his antics weren't getting the response he wanted and quit. She hasn't had trouble with him since.
I think Holly's advice is right on. We have a horse right now that is a bear to shoe. He broke two hitch rail posts two weeks in a row when trying to shoe. My husband worked him in the round pen for about 1/2 an hour and he immediately showed a change in attitude. We kept him moving until he started to exhibit signs of submission, then we worked on leading and he picked that up right away. He learned to stay with his handler and not drag them around and to be respectful of his space.
Once you have his respect, the trust will build from it.
Good luck!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 11:14 am:
Trust first Christos? It sounds like this horse is very disrespectful and that has to be corrected before there will be any trust, on the horses part or the handlers. I read in Sandy’s post that this horse is using his butt and head to push people around; most disrespectful and dangerous.
It is most unfortunate that this poor horse’s first shoeing experience resulted in his nose twisted up in a chain with some idiot wrestling with him to drive a bunch of nails into his feet! What are the chances that during this waltz these shoes actually have been fitted properly and the nails aren’t too high or deep? All because a couple extra hours couldn’t be spared to work through this horse’s fears, fears that have all been validated in his mind now.
I won’t rehash the excellent training suggestions already posted, both Clinton Anderson and John Lyons approaches will work well. He can be taught to stand for a farrier but it will take a lot more work and time now. I’d also use a farrier that doesn’t consider shoeing a timed event (if you can find one) and will spend the time necessary work with this horse and a trainer.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 11:33 am:
My only question is, why do we constantly get the cart before the horse (sorry for the pun) and then make training twice as difficult later. A horse should not see a farrier until all this work is done and the horse will already stand and let you work on his feet. Farriers and vets are not trainers nor would I want them to train my horse. A Farrier will go for the twitch, etc. to get the job done. Then we have to teach them later that a visit to the farrier is no big deal ... How does that work. I had a lady call me the night before a 4H show to see if I would trim bridal path, ears, etc. When I got there, I found that you could not even touch this horses ears, or his head for that matter. Wrestle the horse down, get him trimmed, and then train later. I apologize for the ranting, but I see this so often. People expect their horses to be perfectly calm in every situation without any preparation. A perfectly mannered horse in a round pen can be a bear in other situations. We must train, train, and then train some more.
DT
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 12:05 pm:
Dennis, I totally agree with your comments. Training is a never ending process. I have a mustang that when I first got him I could not even touch him except for his face. However, he had and still does a fear of having his ears touched. I've worked for months to get him to let me stroke his ears and brush around them. He's never been hurt and has complete trust and respect. He's since found out how wonderful it felt to have his ears rubbed inside and out and now loves to have me rub him there. In fact with all the work I've done, just yesterday I was able to trim his bridle path with electric clippers. This was a major accomplishment for him and me.
This horse is on the verge of becoming dangerous and definitely thinks he is the alpha horse. You need to assert yourself with him and teach respect. If you want to start with something small, just go out to his paddock and make him move off the spot he is standing on even if you have to push on him, this is what a dominant horse will do. Everytime he finds a place that seems like a good place to stand, make him move. Herd him around his paddock. Not chasing, herding. Once he is moving the way you want, off to the round pen for more work.
Have fun.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 12:14 pm:
Hello Sandy,
Very good advice above, it indeed is a great site, although the word submission is one that I hate as I love horses to be horses with spirit and heart.
If I may I would like to ask some questions; Would you whip your child if he could not read the lesson if you had not tough him the alphabet! Would you ask a 6 year old boy/girl to carry the 2 stable buckets full of water? would you do that and expect no back ache or torn muscles?!
Hanoverians are considered warm-bloods, large horses who take FOUR years for their bone structure to develop. Hanoverians are very different from TB, this horse is a baby being asked more that he can cope with!.
Please, please do not take this as an offence, but, perhaps you are not ready for a young horse, it is a very common mistake, to get a green horse and start learning together! It is dangerous if not stupid.
I mean no disrespect, but, this horse needs a really experienced person to bring the best out of him, someone has the proper training. Whip this horse and punish him and you will have a big four legged problem in your hands! And many “unexpected attacks”
Hanoverians are very intelligent horses and they make the best competition horses, show jumping , dressage, you name it, BUT, YOU WOULD NOT BY A FERRARI TO A 14YO LEARNER WOULD YOU!
Respectfully and well intended
Liliana
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 12:55 pm:
I guess "willing to listen" would be a better phrase than submission that I used in the post above. We weren't being hard on him, just moving him around the way we wanted him to without even touching him. He trotted and cantered with just our body position as an indicator. Once he started licking, chewing, and lowering his head, we took the pressure off and turned away. He immediately stopped and approached and followed my husband all over the round pen realizing that's the best place to be.
This horse was starting to become very disrespectful and tried to buck my husband off the day before without provocation. I believe we've nipped this problem in the bud before it escalated but we'll do a few more sessions to make sure it sunk in. He is an "Assaloopa" afterall.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 2:11 pm:
Well said,
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 2:23 pm:
Hey now ....... I have several appaloosas myself. You know they are just quarter horses with color .. right.
DT
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 2:32 pm:
Thats a very good one Holly. I also have an "Assaloopa". My farrier, 10 years later, still remembers her first trimming.
Colleen
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 2:43 pm:
Sandy
It sounds like you have got a lot of good advice. The slow process of training, exposure and repetition is what has worked for me to get them to understand what is expected, but I also agree that sometimes when push comes to shove, snapping a few chains can get their attention. I’m sure you will find something that works for this guy.
Dennis said it “People expect their horses to be perfectly calm in every situation without any preparation. A perfectly mannered horse in a round pen can be a bear in other situations. We must train, train, and then train some more.” I would also like to say that I feel very lucky as my farrier is just opposite as what Dennis describes. He is a Mennonite and I suppose has a bit different attitude. He just trimmed my 11 mo. old colt for the third time. The first was just to get acquainted (his idea). Although I could pick up his feet and do anything with them (I was so proud of my progress), he was a complete bear on the second visit. My farrier took over, tied him to a tree, let him have a fit, loved on him and got the job done. This last time, although a bit jumpy, the colt did very well with me just holding the lead rope and reassuring him that everything was ok. I am just starting to work with my rescue colt. I hope he does as well.
I also have to respond to Liliana’s comment about ability to deal with a young horse. Sandy, you know more than anyone your ability and your own horse. I know no offence was intended, but sometime we take great liberties when we generalize. Ten years ago, I got a green horse and we learned together and I know many people who have done the same. Sure it would have been EASIER to start with a well seasoned horse and spend years paying trainers, but not necessary. And think of all the fun I would have missed. And believe it or not, I didn’t ruin her. She is very well behaved and a great trail horse.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 2:47 pm:
Yes, Alden, I think trust first.
Sandy's horse is a baby. One that sounds like he has been put too abruptly through unpleasant things he did not understand. His trust to his handlers sounds damaged, and needs to be repaired.
I do not think you can discipline a horse that does not trust you first. Well, you can discipline him frozen on his hooves, but that's not exactly functional, or a good cornerstone to build on, is it?
My idea is that you first show them that they can trust you. Only once they initially accept the idea, it is time to demand that they always trust and surrender to you.
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 3:13 pm:
Sandy,
We sometimes forget that horses need a leader. Your boy is telling you (in his way) that he needs to know when and where and how to stand. Clearly, he can't decide. You need to be his rock. He should just barely roll his eyeballs at you to check to see if he can move.
Horses don't learn this by petting. They learn this by you putting them into postions. Put his body into places and make him stand there. (this is a variation of Holly's "make him move theme")You can do it with little stress or a lot of stress. Little stress is best. Start by making him stand without distraction and then move up the continuum to the cross ties. One caveat. I agree with Chris--I love the elastic ties... and I have them but if your horse is jumping around, I have heard horror stories about the snaps hitting their face. You might try the velcro ends.
You don't neccesarily need a round pen as I have worked horses for decades before anyone thought of using them. Just be consistent and be firm. I always use praise while they are good and especially scratch and praise after a good job. Start with short time frame and work up. I'm sure you know all this--forgive the simplicity. I use the back up as a punishment for fractious ground manners. Three steps back, be vigorous, really move their feet , turn away from them, don't stare, stand 1-3 seconds ask forward whoa. I don't use chains or such. I use my body. I'm 5'3. You don't need anything more than an attitude. I used to school them on the "come and corner" in their stalls decades ago to get manners but like this much better. Their stalls should be their house.
I love my horses and listen to them but I'd like to live to a ripe old age.
good luck!
Kerry
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 3:34 pm:
Christos,
I think we are using the terms “trust” and “respect” a little differently. Reading your last post I see “respect” when you’re describing “trust”. I agree with most of what you said, except I don’t use discipline to gain respect. At least not discipline as a human sees it; I suppose it is horse discipline though.
Even in human terms I can’t think of a situation that I could trust someone I didn’t have respect for. Do you think this young horse in the wild would trust the lead mare to find water if he had no respect for her? She wouldn’t be the lead mare if she hadn’t already established that through respect. And she does that by controlling their feet, she will move each horse around everyday establishing control.
With a horse I think you have to gain his respect long before he will trust a person with his feet. Those feet are his primary survive mechanism, he will protect them. Establishing respect should come long before the shoeing process like Dennis has said; this horse wasn’t prepared to be shod. The lack of respect has finally come to a head with acting up in the wash rack and fighting the Farrier, but the problem began long before.
I gain a horse’s respect by demonstrating to him that I can control his feet; first in a round pen or paddock, then closer on a lead rope, later working on his feet, and finally on his back.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 3:49 pm:
You are absolutely right Alden. Everyone focusses on the cross tie problem, when it may well have been the shoeing, or the bath. He may have stood the cross ties for something else. In general, I believe if the respect had been established as you say, the other problems may not have risen. And yes, respect before trust.
DT
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 3:51 pm:
The Assaloopa reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:
A cowboy wasn't feelin too good and he went to the Doc and the Doc said, "Sorry Shep, but I got some bad news for ya"
Ol' Shep said, "What is it, Doc?" and the Doc said, "Well, You ain't got but 6 months to live!"
Poor ol' cowboy was just devastasted. "Six months?! Why, that's no time 'tall!"What'll I do Doc, What'll I do?"
"Welll," Said the Doc, "Ya get yerself an ol' Appy stud, and and ol' Dodge truck to haul it around with, and those 6 months, 'il seem like forever!!!
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 4:03 pm:
Too funny Kerry!
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 4:04 pm:
That's a good one. Here's another.
Know why the Nez Perce were such fierce fighters?
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 4:12 pm:
Not funny Kerry .... Am I gonna' have to get rid of all my apps. Now, the Dodge truck is funny. I guess I feel like the apps help me prove I am a good trainer.
DT
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 4:32 pm:
I can't stand the suspense.
Know why the Nez Perce Indians were such fierce fighters?
By the time they got where they were going they were so pissed at their horses they were ready to kill anything! 
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 3:55 am:
I agree that the behaviour on the cross ties may be rooted in his unpleasant experience with being shod. Even if the shoeing occurred before he was put in cross ties, he may be anticipating something nasty happening to him when he can't get away, because not enough ground work was put in with handling his hooves beforehand. I am not surprised he is nervous with having his feet picked up, if he was forced before.
I think you have to put in a lot more time in gaining his trust AND respect, before you put him back in the ties.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 7:01 am:
It seems to me a strange thing to do, to expect a horse which probably doesn't know how to balance on three legs to also have its head restrained on both sides. I think I'd probably fall over if I were the horse. I don't really understand why crossties are so popular in America as the rest of the world seems to be able to get by with just one tying rope not two. I look forward to having my horizons broadened on why they are used.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 11:27 am:
Imogen,
I agree with you, I personally don’t like cross-ties. My experience is they cause more trouble than they are worth. I suppose there maybe a use for one but I haven’t encountered it yet.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 12:47 pm:
Imogen
I will be interested in hearing this also. I got instructions on constructing a cross tie from this site (havent done it yet) thinking it would be easier on me working with my young colts by myself. Am I wrong in thinking this. Presently, I tie them with a lead rope.
Colleen
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 2:15 pm:
I agree with Imogen, restraint methods can not replace training.
There's also a serious holdback with cross-ties.
If the horse pulls, the ropes will be taught at some 140 degrees to eachother. That's a magnificent rig to multiply a horse's pulling effect. Should a bolt or a halter ring fail, it will come out like a bullet.
For whomever finds crossties useful, make the bolts strong and put weak links on the halter end of the ropes.
Once we mentioned it, for all tying, always put the weak link on the halter, not the other end. This way, if it breaks, the rope will recoil away from the horse and not towards his face.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 2:19 pm:
Dear Colleen and Holly and everybody!
Your are very right! It is more fun to train our horses of course it is! We learn a lot , totally agree!!
My opinion was the result of studying Sandy’s comments:
“ My three year old, very large and imposing Hanoverian” “very nervous” “immediately starts to move around and tries to corner a person with his body” ” He will often swing his head around and shove me when I get in his way” rears and falls on me”!
This is obviously a domineering Alfa three year old big Hanoverian, who needs an experienced handler!
Inexperienced is by no means the same as stupidity and one does not need to spend a fortune on trainers to achieve a good result. We are all inexperienced in one way or another. If we were all experts “know it all” we would not enjoy being part of this forum! Would we?
My concern is for Sandy´s safety, she could get hurt!
In this case I really believe that green and green can be a dangerous combination and could prove disastrous for both of them.
My first mare was arthritic and on the way to meat market, it was all I could afford at the time and we had a great time together, we did not compete but had a great time.
Since that time almost all my horses were on the way to the meat marked because they had become dangerous and difficult to handle or they had back problems, had become numb and had lost the will to survive and all of them were the result of bad handling somewhere along their lives.
As my old grand father Rusty used to say!!! prevention is better that cure
All the best
Liliana
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 4:44 pm:
Here in the UK most people tie their horses up by a single leaDrOpe. I have seen some in cross ties, but these are American Morgans in stud farms - don't know why English people think they have to tie their American horses up the US way (I don't and I have a Morgan!).
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 11:36 am:
Hi Gill, We don't use cross ties at our ranch, just tieing with one lead rope to an immovable (safe) object - hitch rail, horse trailer, etc.
I have used cross ties when I boarded or when I was a groom, however, sometimes there were near disasters with horses hauling backwards for no reason. I think horses get a little claustrophobia with not being able to move their heads around.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 3:22 pm:
As I think I've mentioned before (somewhere) on this site, the Blocker Tie Ring is exceptional for teaching a horse not to pull. I don't remember John Lyons ever teaching to tie a horse to an immoveable object, as I know I have heard him say that horses can get badly hurt that way, but I do know that I have seen him train for standing tied by putting a long leaDrOpe around the back side of a smooth post and adding steady tension until the horse gives forward with his ears, nose, body, feet . . . anything to show the slightest inclination to come toward the pressure . . . and then release the pressure on the rope immediately . . . and then do it again from all different angles until the horse learns to always give toward the pull . . . Of course, this means time spent training the horse . . .
The Blocker Tie Ring www.blockerranch.com/Pages/blockertie2.html
keeps a horse from feeling claustrophobic . . . imitates the same technique used to teach a horse to ground tie, so that he can move enough to not feel caught . . . and the tie rings can be used as cross ties or anywhere . . . on the side of your horse trailer, on a hitching rail, in the stall, etc.
A friend brought me some rings after visiting with Ted Blocker last August. Clinton Anderson is marketing the tie rings now, as he has used them in demonstrations and found them to work successfully with horses that panic or set back.
Holly
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 4:54 pm:
The John Lyons method mentioned was told to me by an acquaintance that was a John Lyons devotee - followed him around the country to attend his clinics and took lessons from a certified John Lyons instructor. (sounds almost like a stalker ). I may have the technique wrong but I could swear that's what she said - JL said to tie to an immovable object and let him move or pull or whatever to get over his undesirable behavior. Whatever. I'm going to check out those tie rings, sounds like a good deal.
Holly Z
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 5:00 pm:
I just checked out the Blocker tie rings - very cool. I'm placing an order right away.
Holly Z
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 12:41 pm:
Holly Z,
I am not familiar with John Lyon's methods, but it is difficult to imagine a reputable trainer preaching tying to a solid object.
The reason is that though there are things to do in order to minimise stress ( burlap sack behind the poll, or rope through the halter ring to a loop around the girth, or tying really high ) there is still, I believe, significant risk for injury in employing these methods.
I do not mean to say that these methods are dangerous, they're fine if you don't have the time, skill or patience to proceed otherwise.
But it's not the thing to see demonstrated by a horse guru, is it?
Holly, I enjoy handling my horses the exact way I would handle the most precious competition horse on the planet. And I wouldn't take any risks with such a horse. Neither would any reputable trainer.
Now, my horses may be worth less than the poop they've produced over the years, but is this a reason to risk their well being?
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 3:39 pm:
I didn't say I employed that method but an acquaintance did and she said it was endorsed by JL. I wouldn't do that personally to my horses either and I haven't paid more than $1,600 for any one of my four. To me they are worth their weight in gold and deserve to be protected and loved. I only mentioned it because she said it was a JL method. But then again, this acquaintance was a bit hard on her horses and in all the time I've known her, I've never seen her show any affection for them.
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 4:09 pm:
I think maybe this is getting confused: teaching to tie and tying a horse that will already stand tied. I tie my mares to hitching posts, trees, trailers with a quick release knot (im never too far away) but would not do this with my colts who are learning to tie.
Thanks for posting the site Holly W. I remember you mentioning the blocker ring before. I think I will invest in one for the young ones. Ive got one who will probably need it along with training.
Colleen
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2004 - 7:19 am:
Talking renowned trainers and teaching horses to tie, I have to mention that Dr Reiner Klimke, a man whom I can't even think of judjing, does teach the horse by tying to a solid object.
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