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Discussion on Mikmar Bit
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 - 1:36 am:
Has anyone on this site ever tried a Mikmar bit?
I recently purchased one for more than I'm used to spending on a bit, but something told me it was worth it.
Well I wasn't wrong! This is one great bit! My horse loves it, I love it!
Has anyone else used one, and what have you're experiences been?
I find this bit to be a great tool for getting a horse to give it's head and maintain a good headset.
Let me know if there are any other fans out there!
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Member:
Apcohrs
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 3:49 pm:
Not a fan.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 7:34 pm:
Hi, Lorrie,
It is an old idea, I think circa 1880.
You can rig a piece of string through the bottom and top ring of any curb bit, over the horse's nose and down the other side, attach the reins to loops on the ends of the string and have the same effect.
I do not like it, because it is about "breaking" the horse at the poll with the reins and not with your legs and seat. I do not think it is a kind apparatus, it is actually everything man can do to a horse's head, applied simultaneously!
The concept produced a very fake "frame" when we tried it, and the horse's expression looked as if its brains were fried...
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 10:41 am:
Thanks Christos,
I ride with a loose rein, so when I do use it I also use my legs and seat to drive and collect, just a quick check and release action. I didn't notice it producing so much of a fake frame, but of course I've only used on two horses. Definely didn't see any fried brain expression. Thanks for your post, I was wanting feedback and you gave me some to mull over.
Thanks,
Lorrie
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 10:43 am:
Ann,
Care to elaborate? I,m really interested in what others have to say about this bit, likes or dislikes.
Lorrie
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 12:41 pm:
Sorry, but I’m with the others and I’ve never seen such a thing before. The problem is the horse should be “giving his head” long before transition to a curb bit.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 12:58 pm:
You're welcome, Lorrie,
Please note that I have not tried the mikmar itself. There may be small differences in design that give a different effect.
And, let's not forget, what has not worked for me and my horse may work beautifully for you and your horse.
Hey, we have a young mare that can use the experiment, I think she's poking her nose out a bit more than she should. I'll try it again the next couple of days and tell you how it goes.
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 1:17 pm:
Alden,
I absolutely agree with your opinion and always ride in a snaffle first,with the horse giving it's head before switching to a curb. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise. Thanks for your post.
Lorrie
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 1:21 pm:
Christos,
I'll be very anxious to hear how it goes, please let me know.
Have a great day!
Lorrie
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Member:
Rdrj
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2004 - 5:56 am:
Lorrie-
Thank you for posting that question about the Mikmar bit. As a result I went to their web site, and although there were some negative opinions expressed here on this site, I decided that I needed to try one, as I have several horses that were not responding to more conventional bits and techniques. Here are my results:
1. A tense, uptight, know it all mare that loves to go behind the vertical and jump up and down. I was convinced the bit not only would have no effect but would make her worse. Wrong. Started out her usual you can't train on me attitude but in no time was quiet in her mouth and going forward but calm and slow on a very soft contact. Allowed me to add my leg without any problem.
2. A belligerent, braced mare that hates any contact whatsoever, roots and will not use her back and hind end at all. Became soft and forward without shoving her shoulders through you.
3. A cranky, ear pinning, rearing, upside down mare that is so resistant to any bit that even with a flash noseband we call her "the alligator". Learned finally to trot jumps and not heave herself across with her head straight up, with the contact just being the weight of the reins.
4. A school horse mare that was so sick of beginner rides that she was throwing her head to the ground to unseat them, and was braced from the tip of her nose to the end of her tail. She became the softest, roundest cutest thing in about 5 minutes, all with the same beginners, who finally could sit correctly because they were not being dragged down over her head.
5. A new mare I had just bought for a student who had fallen apart so dramatically I did not know what to do. Running away, throwing her head up when going to the right so violently that even a martigale could not save you. Blacksmith, dentist, vet, chiropractor, massage therapist- no help. Almost called the communicator. I could not do a thing with this mare and was wondering how I was going to get the customers out of her.
As I write this I see that all the above are mares. But the 6th horse we will ride tomorrow. This is a gelding that has learned to pull his rider to the fence and then just buck her off on the other side. Should be interesting.
At any rate, I can not say enough good things. Even though this is just day one, I can see such a difference in all these horses frame of mind that I feel it can only get better. Too bad one can't show in this bit. I hope that the change holds over when switching to a traditional snaffle for the show ring!
If you are interested, I will keep you posted.
Rita Ussher
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2004 - 6:36 am:
Keep us posted, interesting results.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2004 - 7:54 am:
Oh I forgot to ask. Which of the bits are you using. They have a few. Thanks Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 7:05 am:
Hi, all,
We tried the "Mikmar immitation rig" on two mares, and the results are interesting.
It did help with the young one that objects to the bit. I think that is simply because it distributes pressure between mouth and nose. She lelaxed a bit through her whole body, but she did not actually work on the bit. She just gave in the poll, which I do not like. The feeling on the reins was vague.
It did not work with the one that already accepts the bit. Both me and the horse lost almost all contact and feeling, and she was shaking or shooting up her nose, I believe complaining for the unfamiliar pressure. As expected, she became tense, not to say angry, and I had to change the bit and apologise.
It seems that the Mikmar is a good tool to start a horse with. I did not like it for any further riding, most certainly because I am used to direct contact with the horse's mouth and the new feeling was awkward. But may be it just takes time to develop detail in the new feeling.
I did not like the horse's frame, but that takes time to develop with a new bit, can't do in a couple of times. And it is a very personal judgment.
I will agree with Rita, it is too bad one can't show in it. We'd have then horses fully schooled in it, a somehow objective comparison.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 10:34 am:
What's the website you looked at Rita? I'd like to find out more and if they can help my horse. He's very strong and likes to really move out on the trail so I end up with the reins really tight to keep him slower and this upsets him and me. I don't like having to do this as I like to ride trails with a long rein. Thanks.
Holly
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 5:24 pm:
Never mind, I found it. (mikmar.com duh!) I also bought one as well. Can't wait to try it out. I'll give you my take on it Monday.
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Member:
Rdrj
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 6:58 pm:
Katrina- After several e-mails to the Mikmar people, they sugguested the best of their bits to solve the most of my problems was the combination bit.
Christos- I also tried it on my gelding that has done well in a Mylar snaffle (NOT the one with the hooks). This was just an experiment, no other reason.This horse accepts contact, moves off your leg in a lovely soft frame etc. He did not object to the Mikmar but I noticed no change either way. He did wonder why he had all the get up on his face, but nothing else.
I did use it on the tough gelding yesterday. He hated it and was very resistant at first. But the point is he is ALWAYS resistant, so this was nothing new. The interesting thing is that we always have to ride him in a martingale. I use this bit with no noseband, so the martingale was left out of the equation. He tried his usual head tossing, but soon gave it up, I have no idea why. In the end, you could just feel his back relax and swing, something I had never accomplished before. But the real test was today, when we rode him in his plain d-ring. The change was remarkable- he did not view the bit as the enemy and was soft and relaxed, forward but not strung out. One thing I may not have stated earlier is that most of these horses came to me with issues (The only kind I usually get) and I was considering this group as my "failures".
Tomorrow we take "the alligator" to a little schooling show- I plan to school her in the Mikmar and then show in her regular snaffle. I will post the results!
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Member:
Dwinans
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Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2004 - 2:04 pm:
I just purchased the short shank Mickmar yesterday and have tried it once. I am so used to "fighting" with my gelding to keep in him a round frame that it is definitely a different feeling just sitting there with my hands still. Although Remy didn't fight the Mickmar he didn't really respond for the first 30 minutes of walking; I just let him figure it out for himself. He soon realized that even though I wasn't "picking" at his face that it was much more comfortable to be soft and round.
From what I understand this is a "training" bit as opposed to a "corrective" bit (e.g. a gag bit, elevator bit). Which means you can school in it and the day of the show put your snaffle back on and he will still stay soft and round.
I can't use draw reins on Remy because he gets that fake bend in his neck rather than rounding his back so I will be very interested to see how he goes after he gets totally used to this Mikmar.
Although my first reaction to seeing this bit was "Wow, how severe is this", when I learned more about the way it sits in the horse's mouth and other details I realized that it's not severe at all.
I'm really not interested in fads but I think this bit has been around for over 50 years and some very experienced hunter/jumper trainers have had EXTREMELY good experience with this bit.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2004 - 4:51 pm:
Hi,
I gave the bit a trial run - I bought the combination and it came with the video tape. After watching the tape and listening to all the accolades from riders near and far, I went out and tried it on my horse. After about 10 minutes of trying to spit it out, he accepted it fine. I asked him for a halt and he halted right now with very light pressure. I felt his back round underneith me and his change in attitude was immediate. No rooting on the bit, no dragging me around. It was "yes ma'am, what can I do for you ma'am?" He still remained cheerful but was paying very close attention to me. He was light and soft and a real pleasure. The test will be this weekend when I take him out on trail and see how he does.
So far I like it just fine.
Holly
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 8:13 am:
O.K., let's try this again. Had a post started and tried to add an icon and "zippo"...lost it all!!!
I've been following this post and researching bits. Now I find myself with more questions than answers so I am hoping for some feedback.
Does one use a snaffle then go to a Mikmar? Most of you used this on horses you were already riding. In one of the video clips on their web site, a guy puts the Mikmar bit on a "greenbroke Arab mare who's been doing well in the snaffle". But they call the one bit a "training bit". A customer writes on the site to use the training bit first, then the combo. All the bits have the same mouth it appears, but it seems the rope set up is what's making the diffence.
And isn't the "Hank bit" similiar?? Just with a broken snaffle mouth?
The video of the Arab mare (from their web site) shows her going round with her head low and behind the vertical. I am not a fan of the "nose to the knees" way of going, but that may be cuz I've rode more Arabs than any other breed. Is this what you are finding happens with this bit?
I have a mare I am trying to get ready to sell. Using the Myler snaffle MB33, and a Chambon on the lunge line, and she's still fighting to keep her head up. I mean waaay up, hollowed back. So I am thinking about a Mikmar for her. But she uses a 4.5 inch bit in the Myler, seems the Mikmar runs big...hmmm??
I was also thinking maybe the Mikmar for the 3 youngsters I have to start, but yet the Myler bits seem so much more "comfortable." That's the attraction I have for the Mylers, the "curved mouth piece", "tongue relief"...etc.
I will email Mikmar and ask questions, but I think their answers may be a little biased. Any help would be appreciated.
I have started horses before, rode for 35 yrs, but the older I get, the more I realise the less I know. And, 2 of my youngsters are for my husband and daughter to ride in the future, so I really want to take my time, and not give anyone a bad attitude about the mouth.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 9:04 am:
I've been following this thread out of curiosity as I'm totally unfamiliar with these bits. A question I find I am asking myself is--whatever happened to collection as the means to get a horse rounded, on the bit, etc.? If a horse is collected his back is naturally round and his head has a proper head set as the horse is on the bit correctly, not forced. Thus, no weird angles in the neck, etc. but acceptance, light contact, roundness, softness, etc.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 9:37 am:
Sara, thanks for stating what I've been wondering too. I don't have nearly the level of experience of most people on this site, so I am reading this with great interest. Do bits and bitting have to be so very complex? We have our 3.5 year old in a D-ring snaffle and are working on basics geared toward showing western pleasure. I had always assumed the natural progression would be training in a snaffle with direct reining, verbal commands, and slow conditioning to build muscles so that collection is possible for longer periods. Then, transitioning to neck reining and a curb bit. I have a friend urging me to go ahead and use a Tom Thumb snaffle to "get his head down and better collection." This person has much more experience than I do, yet this seems all wrong to me. It seems to imply that a bit creates collection. I'm sticking with what we've got for now as the horse is coming along really well with no reason to switch (that I can see at this point) to other than a snaffle. But I am really not too clear on the whole issue.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 9:58 am:
Terri-imo keep doing what you are doing! I think you will have a better trained and better performing horse in the end-again. imo! You should be able to ride a horse bareback and with just a halter and get the same body frame (collection) as you would in full bit & bridle. True collection comes from behind & doesn't start with the mouth.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 10:54 am:
Terri, also imo keep doing what you're doing. If your horse is performing fine in a snaffle, then keep using it. Like the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I agree with Sara, collection comes from behind where you push him into the bridle and he is between your leg and hand. Not from the bridle and working backwards. BTW, tom thumb snaffles are one of the worst, most severe bits out there. Stay away from them!
I used the mikmar yesterday again on a longer ride with my QH. I had previously ridden him in a snaffle (which he ignored most of the time) and just switched to the mikmar. When I turned to come home, instead of trying to drag me or jigging the whole way, he was soft and relaxed. We were able to come all the way home on a long rein in a normal walk. If he got a little fast, just a light touch and he settled back down. He really seems to enjoy the roller and plays with it from time to time.
What a difference. From a horse that I barely had control over to a happy horse and happy rider out for a leisurely jaunt.
Holly
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 11:18 am:
Thanks for the comments--I'm relieved to know we're on the right track. Yes, Holly, the tom thumb is something I will definitely NOT use. In fact, the discussion I had with my friend about switching to that bit largely consisted of my explaining what an awful bit is really is. My daughter's trainer/instructor (who is teaching her and the 3.5 yo) has also said that she thought we'd go to the tom thumb "when he's ready." I told her no...that I would be fine with a low port curb, but not a tom thumb. She gave me that "you are being totally stupid" look. Do all trainers have a particular talent for making clients feel this way?
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Member:
Caroltd
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 12:12 pm:
Holly Z, I have to ask why you feel the Tom Thumb is such a bad bit? I have seen it recommended for older well-bitted horses.
Carol TD
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 12:19 pm:
Mark Rashid provides an excellent explanation at at this link:
https://www.markrashid.com/CTHArticleTroubleWithTomThumb.html
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Member:
Caroltd
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 12:51 pm:
Terri, Thank you for the information. Now I know why my mare is acting up. I just switched her to the Tom Thumb and she acts as though she doesn't know where I want her to go. I see why now.
Carol
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 3:17 pm:
Terri,
Thanks for providing that website. I had read it before but couldn't remember where the site was. I had been using a tom thumb on my horse and when I read that I immediately went home and changed to an egg butt snaffle.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 3:36 pm:
You're both welcome. I had read it before, and came across it fairly recently....there are other trainers with similar thoughts posted on the web as well. In addition, I had a horse that I tried to use a TT on that just seemed so perplexed by it....didn't seem to know where to go and was so unhappy in it that we didn't use it again. Mark Rashid's article is so logical and well-illustrated that it is hard to ignore. I DO know people who use this bit and are really happy with it. Go figure.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 4:41 pm:
Thanks Terry,
The Mark Rashid site is excellent, I love the pictures, simple well explained.
Thanks again
Liliana
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 6:30 pm:
Terri-in a word, "yes!" All trainers make you feel stupid; but a good trainer will also make you feel smart, too.
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Member:
Rdrj
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 - 6:32 am:
More Mikmar results:
The little mare perfomed admirably at the horse show. She was not sharky, did not open her mouth or pin her ears and jumped straight and forward. These are all changes that have occured in two rides with this bit, after one solid year of trying to get her to respond to several snaffles.
New client's horse has for as long as she can remember swapped off behind at the canter, mostly when going to the right. Usually I would consider this a mystery unsoundness, even thought the mare does not limp. But I began to suspect that in fact this was a "rein lameness" for lack of any other word to describe it. The rider hangs on this mares mouth a bit, and it seemed like every time the mare stiffened her back against her, she swapped off. But I rode her twice and did not really do much better. In this bit, she never swapped off one time, a miracle in my mind. In addition, I got right off, put back on her regular snaffle, and she held her soft frame and cantered quietly without bracing her neck or back and stayed united the entire time. If I wasn't sold before, I certainly am now.
My one disagreement with their website information is that they imply this is a great bit for those with novice hands. To me the rider has to have an even greater understanding of how to ask for jaw and poll softening, release and add leg for this bit to do its work.
For those that still want to harp on the leg to hand theory and dismiss "gimmicks": I totally agree, but where do you start with a horse that is so resistant to the leg and the hand(ever ride a two by four before?)and assumes that everything you try to offer him will not be pleasant. This bit has offered changes to my tough project horses that no amount of good riding has done before. None of the gimmicks- draw lines, german martingales, chambons, gag bits, elevators, tack nosebands, neck stretchers etc.- stuff I gave up years ago as only creating head frame changes and no body changes- could do this. To me the test is if you can get through to your horse to the point where he changes mentally to accept traditional aids and goes forward happily and softly and "owns" this new way of going. Traditional tack gimmicks only "work" for as long as the horse is wearing them.
So I definitely agree that if ain't broke don't fix it- this is for when its already broke and doesn't care to be fixed!
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 11:14 pm:
Rita, Holly,& Dawn,
I am so delighted to hear that this bit has ended up being helpful with your horses. I do still believe in starting out in a snaffle and gaining collection through proper procedure, but I do really believe this bit is extremely helpful with horses that are more resistant to giving to the bit willingly.
In answer to your question Rita, I purchased the combination bit and continue to be very pleased with it on our older mare that we use it on, no fussing or head flipping that used to go on, just a happy relaxed horse, more willing to please.
Good luck to all and let me know of any other success stories!
Lorrie
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 9:00 pm:
Hi all, Just wanted to give my experience with the mikmar combination bit.
I tried it on a few horses and did have great results. However personally I like the bit alone without the nose string or the shank. The nose part did have nice instant results but I felt like I did not have contact with his mouth. My horse loved the mouth piece however. Prefering it to a snaffle. All in all I am very happy with the bit and the choices you have. I dont think I will ride my horse in this all the time . I think I will use it for events such as hunter paces etc. (Not the nose or shank part). It does stop him from pulling and keeps him soft in my hand under extremely exciting conditions. My horse accepts this bit and his mouth is as soft as greeny. Thumbs up. I would not however recommend it for a beginner as the tape says.
My 2 cents
Katrina
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Member:
Seraf
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 8:56 pm:
mikmar bits,
Just wanted to add to the above posts. I ordered a mikmar bit and read the reviews. Did you know your reviews were on their site. Is this bit as good as it sounds?
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Member:
Dwinans
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 10:03 pm:
I was a bit surprised when I read my review on their website. I guess that it is ok as they listed their source (not that they listed Horseman's Advisor though).
It worked very well for my horse. I used it as a training bit and only used it temporarily. The periods of going back to it became less frequent and further apart until I haven't had to use it for over a year now. The head trainer at my barn doesn't like it but I have never been given a good reason as to why. All I know is that it worked for my horse.
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New Member:
Tipper
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 10:42 am:
I bought the Training bit and neither horse I wanted to use it on ever got used to it. I finally gave up and am planning to sell it on ebay.
I did have good results with the Rockin S snaffle (found it on Mark Rashid's website $75). It did everything he said and more. I've subsequently found it elsewhere for a little less.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 11:30 am:
I bought the Mikmar Comfort Snaffle for my young horse and he never really liked it. His mouth is smaller, like an Arab size, and I don't think the curvature of the bit fit him well. It was an expensive trial. I now use the JP oval mouth French link eggbutt snaffle, which I believe is the gentlest of bits. But I've had my eye on the Rockin S snaffle, which sounds interesting (plus I respect Mark Rashid's opinion). Thanks for mentioning it, Martha.
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 6, 2006 - 8:49 am:
How a Mikmar saved my life!!!! I have read the posts and agree with all thats been said. For a straightforward horse there is no such thing as a bitting problem as you could ride it with a piece of string. However I bought one of those problem horses, an amazing jumper but unbelievably strong. A very big strong mare she would literally lean and pull then run. I restarted her slowly and gently and she laughed at me and tried every way possible to scare me, the slightest thing would make her spook and bolt. I sent her to an Olympic dressage rider who sent her back as dangerous, I sent her to an Olympic showjumper with the same result. She spent two weeks in the University hospital getting nuclear scintigraphy and every joint xrayed and every ligament scanned and came back with a clean bill of health but with an accompanying note saying please never bring her back again as she was evil. Still I loved her and wanted to ride her and couldn't sell her anyway and so I tried the Mikmar. It was a miracle, we both discovered that she could canter, before she went from trot to gallop, and not just canter but to do so rhythmically and in a balanced but active fashion. I could go to shows and clinics and people LOVED her!!! We had been thrown out of numerous clinics and rings before for her bad behaviour. I started to jump her and we gave exhibitions of jumping and we had so much fun. One day I was hacking her down the road at the top of a steep hill just before a major junction (hacking was unthinkable before) when a racing bike sped silently up behind and frightened the life out of both of us. She bolted and within 3 strides I had her stopped, I cannot explain how impossible that would have been before, nothing would have stopped her before and we would have been killed. I would ride her at home in the Mikmar most days and compete in a snaffle. I never found a need to use it on any other horse here and would be wary that the flat plate in the mouthpiece becomes vertical with rein pressure and so could damage the horses palate if used incautiously. However it most definitely has its place in horses that are irreparably spoilt or naturally intractable. This is a picture of us jumping in our Mikmar days (with snaffle). Catherine
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 11:37 am:
I'm going to resurrect this Mikmar discussion. I've been thru so many bits with my TB mare, Egg butt, (too big, nutcracker), D-ring french link (same issues), full cheek Mikmar snaffle with lozenge (no better than D-ring french link, plus she doesn't need the full cheek), Myler (perhaps too thin, plus I did not put it on the hooks), now we are on loose ring french link, (she may like it a little better but not really a difference).
She really is resistant to the bit, lots of teeth grinding, evasion and I'm not asking too much of her. She pulls at the halt. Twists her head sideways (at the poll) and up with her lips apart, fussing and showing her teeth while on soft contact at trot and walk. This sideways action of her head also happens just going straight, even reins she will turn/tilt/twist her head (nose pointing out sideways). She is not pulling or disobedient at all, but can't seem to find a happy spot with the bit and can't keep her head still and straight, occasionally she will straighten out and have a few nice strides, but then goes back to the twisting. This mare is excellent on the ground, stops, backs with me with out any pressure. I can also ride her is a rope halter and she is more responsive (and happier). Her teeth have just been done, I have a new saddle that fits her (she had this problem with the old saddle).
For those of you who have used a Mikmar bit, is it something that could be used as a training bit to help the horse over a hump in training, help them soften, go straight, relax, be able to build themselves up, get balanced then move back to the snaffle?
She is much better after a winter off. and her stifle issues have pretty much gone away now that she is not living on a steep hill and has plenty of pasture for exercise, but I want to help her with the resistance and make her more comfortable.
Seems it's either a miracle or people hate it.
Thanks
Adria
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Friday, Jul 31, 2009 - 7:37 pm:
That is exactly why I used the short-shank Mikmar on my TB gelding. He did the exact thing yours is doing. He would almost turn his head upside down when trotting under saddle.
This was years ago and after using the Mikmar for a few weeks he was light in the bit, stopped pulling, was more balanced and straight. I liked it because it forced me to stop "messing with his face". I just kept my hands set but soft and when he resisted he figured out really quickly that was not the thing to do.
About a year after using the Mikmar for a couple weeks I needed to use it again. This time it was only for a couple of days. I haven't had to use it for the past few years now.
Just a couple of days ago a friend who has a horse at my barn noted that her TB was twisting his head funny and holding his poll weird. Kind of like my horse was doing. She thought maybe his poll was out or something. The vet came out and said that he has had experience with horses that do that and has found that their elbow hurts. He palpitated it and the horse was so reactive that he almost fell over. The vet injected the joint. It's too soon to tell if there has been any improvement. I've never heard of this and it sounds a little weird to me but I thought I would mention it as it sounds similar.
Good luck.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 9:30 am:
I don't doubt the value of the Mikmar in certain tough cases. Folks on this thread with lots more experience than I have shown that.
I have wondered, though, if some (or much) of the improvement in many cases is in the rider. This bit looks very harsh, so most riders, out of respect for this bit, would change how they use their hands. Could the improvement be as simple as the rider quieting and softening the hands?
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 12:40 pm:
As it is said any bit in the wrong hands is the wrong bit. People can haul away on a snaffle and ruin their horse's mouth. I can see that these bits could be very harmful in the wrong hands, I agree that it could be helping quiet the rider's hands, therefore changing the horses way of going and could it also be helping the rider's hands if the horse begins to relax and act differently to the bit, therefore changing the rider's hands, like Dawn said to help her "stop messing with his face". I find that Rose does better with a Sidepull or with the rope halter, she will stop, in the snaffle she braces against it. The only problem for me with the Sidepull or halter is her canter, which is very strong and she can get a bit het'up!
She's very good at "long and low", but I want her to start engaging more and start making contact. Now she either pulls or evades it with various tactics. I have pretty good hands (or so I've been told) and she does these things when I'm asking for soft contact. Although I'm sure all her evasions etc are my fault!
I see they have no satisfaction guarantee, but I don't really see any on eBay which might indicate people are pleased.
thanks
Adria
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 1:35 pm:
Adria, fwiw, it may simply be bit placement in the mouth as well causing discomfort. If the bit fits well, it should also be placed correctly in the mouth, it should never hit the molars - never. If it is it's way too high in the mouth, get rid of the "wrinkles".
Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 1:37 pm:
Adria have you tried a bitless bridle? I rode my horse in a sidepull also. The bitless really does seem to work as far as working off their hindend.
It has a nice stop to it. I have been very happy with it, tho not all people seem to like it...most do.
I have a related thread under this topic if you are interested.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/296462.html
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 9:17 pm:
Terrie,
The bit is not too high, my trainer always tries to get me to make the "3 wrinkles" but I have it so it just sits nicely, it's not hitting her molars, the same for my other horse, the wrinkles just seem too tight. I don't think it's causing discomfort.
I have considered the bitless bridle, she is so comfortable in the sidepull, almost too much. i was wondering if the bitless bridle would help them engage. Maybe I should try that first, I think you can use them in conjunction with a bit, with the bit just in place. How is lateral work with the bitless bridle since that is something we need to work on?
She is not a horse that is pushy or even truly evasive, but I think she does evade the bit contact, it requires work, using muscles, oh no! She's perfectly happy just hanging out, trotting along being ADD, but work, egads! She is a sweetie who does want to please all the time but, concentration, paying attention, she needs work on, so engaging, going round seems to be a lot for her.
Adria
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 10:03 pm:
Adria, my horse does fine with lateral work, it seems to work the same as a bit. You can not add a bit to the bitless bridle I have.
If you want a bit and your horse is used to a sidepull, maybe the sidepull with a bit would be a good next step. I used that on my horse and If I was going to go to a bit that's the bridle I reach for. He actually works better in the bitless bridle tho.
https://www.horse.com/Half-Breed-Side-Pull-with-Bit-WCB55.html
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 10:03 pm:
OK
I just ordered a bitless bridle. Will report later! It may be the ticket for her.
Adria
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 1, 2009 - 11:13 pm:
Adria, Good luck with the bitless, she will probably love it! Especially if she tenses on the snaffle. It's probably been hurting or did hurt. Be it the bit, the placement or the hands, somewhere something hurt or she'd not fuss so much. Well too some horses will fuss more if worried or nervous, or plan bored.
And Adria, personally, 3 wrinkles is 2 too many, if you have to have any. ;)
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Member:
dzaccheo
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 2, 2009 - 4:07 pm:
I have found that the only bit my horse will go well in is the forward cut/tilted pelham. It seems to give room for the tongue without the port hitting the roof of the mouth. I suspect he has a big tongue and a low palette. I tried many many different bits and with them all he would stick out his tongue, sometimes tilt his head and be hard in the mouth. He would alternate between being above the bit and behind the bit. He goes really well in this bit. It is made by Neue Schule.
I think with some horses, it is just really hard to find the bit they like and that fits thier mouth.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 8:29 am:
OK,
It's critique time! I've put on my armor and anxiously await comments, opinions etc. I made a video of me riding Rose. make sure you have your seasick pills ready, my 11yo son was the videographer, and it was his first time, next time I'll have him use the tripod,lol. I added some music to make the rockin' and rollin' better...
I can see my faults, the ones my trainer always corrects me about, my elbows are tense, my hands are not tight but they are low, not always a straight line from elbow to bit. My toes are pointing out, but I know that's not too bad, sometimes I look a little forward.
You can see her bit evasions, head tossing, twists to the side, she looks better than she feels, she's rushing with her head up.
I got the bitless bridle yesterday and am going to try it today, I'm so excited and curious to see the results. Then I will do an after video.
I hope the link works, there are two versions, one is much higher quality and therefore longer to load, the other should be no problem.
https://gallery.me.com/goosgrl7#100066
Cheers
Adria
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 10:26 am:
hum? i can't get the video to open.. i down loaded the free Quick Time , still not able..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 1:06 pm:
I got it to work. I had to allow the activeX popup.
I do see the evasions. My mare, Pumpkin, was the same...hated contact. I really had to set my hands. (Until she learned that evading was not going to help her.)
Best of luck...and lovely mare BTW
L
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 5:40 pm:
got it.. ovey.. tripod next time please..
shoot a harsher bit is not the answer.. consistent contact / pushing her into the bridle and time and more time to get her to understand.. what I do like is she is a quiet mare , seems willing other wise..she has moments of acceptance She will get it with time and persistence.. unless there is a physical reason ..
I know you did not ask, but in the walk part of the first one your right hip is DrOpped much more then your left.. maybe she can feel that too ?
* do you use Apple for your program?
On the fist day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 6:46 pm:
I couldn't get it to work My computer is NQR tho for some reason!...no virus.
I rode my horse in his bitlees tonight ableit slowly, cuz he's broke. That bitless bridle impresses me more everytime I use it. I hope it works as well for you.
You may want to add your experience with it under the bitless bridle thread also, that way people who are searching for it can get different experiences.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 9:57 pm:
I'm sorry some of you can't get it. Quicktime seemed to be the only option, actually the first time I put a video online (20 minutes of riding 7 hours of video editing). She is mostly very quiet, she does get nervous at times, mostly with the bit, she grinds her teeth. She is very willing and always wants to please. She does have moments of acceptance, it takes a while for her to warm up and also by that time she sort of begins to understand, but she fights it for a while. It was toward the end that she began to give, just little snippets. She's such a good girl, and she does move pretty nicely. When she does give, I can feel her smooth out and balance. I'm glad you could see her good moments, even with the ship sinking, waves bobbing, lol.
There's hope for us yet!
I did notice my tipping hip, and I did think she might be feeling this since when she twists her head it's always to the right...
Yes, I have a Mac.
Thanks
Adria
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 10:22 pm:
Yes , she is a nice moving mare.. don't get frustrated , remember she learns on her time , not yours.. some are harder learners then others.. and boy do I know this..! Continue with asking her to accept, continue pushing her into your hands.. be consistent with your ask and be giving with your hands but don't throw it away either .... a bungee cord kind of feel..
Would love to see a update video in a month ..
*am considering buying a Mac.. thus my question..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 6, 2009 - 11:25 pm:
I like the way she swings along in the trot. Which bit are you using in the video? Or is it the bitless?
I know that not everyone will agree with me, but sometimes side reins will help in a case like this. I see your horse being very sensitive to any feel of the bit from your hands, therefore you aren't taking up much slack to initiate contact.
I find that side reins for lunging can help the horse to gain confidence with contact since she will determine how much contact is taken. You can shorten them in increments until you have a near vertical head-carriage. Start rather long so she doesn't feel trapped, though, or she will lose forward impulsion. Once she relaxes with them in the right place for lunging, you can also add a second pair of reins for you to steer, but let the side reins still be the main contact as you ride.
Be sure to keep the leg on to move her into the bit, don't simply take back for contact.
I have had excellent results by letting the sensitive horse choose contact on side reins. No chance of pulling or changing the amount of feel accidentally. Then transfer to a "fixed" hand (NOT tight and unyielding, just mimicking the stillness of the side rein) to help transition the comfort level to your hand. Ride with very quiet hands until she gains confidence in you, but keep the energy forward that your horse already shows.
Easier done than written...hope you understand my meaning.
Erika
PS.I love a bitless for trail, etc., but I don't think it works well for getting a horse into frame.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 9:26 am:
Ann, You should definitely look into a Mac, I've been using one for 12 years now and wouldn't go back. They are so much easier and intuitive, the only drawback they ever had was speed but now that they all have the Intel processors there is no comparison. Whenever I use my mothers PC I get so frustrated, all those pop ups, virus stuff, it would be a transition, but once you get used to it you'll wonder why you haven't had one all along. I keep trying to convince my mother to get one, since they are so much easier but she's resisting change, lol. At the Apple store they have refurbished models which are just as good, but a really good deal. Plus new ones come with all the goodies, the iMovie stuff, iPhoto. But there still are programs that are targeted toward PCs.
She does have a nice swinging trot, this was not the case last year, where I had her boarded she was on a steep hill and developed stifle problems and was very stiff and in pain, I have had her home since October of last year, she basically had all winter off and it really shows, she has lots of room to gallop, which she does (with glee), when she trots in the pasture she floats, so she's feeling pretty good and it shows under saddle, she no longer feels stiff and doesn't take 25 minutes to warm up any more, and she doesn't stumble and have her hip give out anymore, so I feel that we are just finally getting going even though I've had her for 2 years. But she has always resisted contact, but now since she's feeling better she'll come around better.
Erika, I'm using the loose ring french link snaffle. I have some sliding balancing reins that someone recommended as being less rigid than regular side reins but I haven't tried them on her yet, but if she can find her contact, and get comfortable with out a rider she may feel more confident about reaching for contact. Sometimes she goes behind the bit to avoid contact as well, but at this point it's also a strength issue, and I feel like I need to treat her as if she were a 4 year old. She really didn't start training until she was 6, she retired from racing at 3, she never actually really raced, she has workouts on her racing stats but no races, I think she didn't have the snuff or she always came up lame, then she was put out to pasture for 3 years and did nothing so she's still just a greenie, she's 9 now. She's really well bred, Danzig grand-sire, she has a brother who does well and her dam is a French mare with Hanoverian and Trakehner on her dams side.
Thanks for all the input! It's really helpful and nice to hear opinions other than my trainer's, who I haven't seen in weeks, so I'm on my own lately.
Adria
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 10:37 am:
I ditto what Erika says about the sidereins. I ended up using side reins on Pumpkin (but only on longe, at trot.) and that realllly helped her, along with setting/fixing my hand. I attacvhed them low(on the girth) and slightly in front of vertical. I never rode with them. I personally used solid leather ones. My trainer wasnt a fan of donuts. Ive only used a D-ring snaffle on her.
Pumpkin and Rosie could be Identical twins as far as the contact evasion go. Same exact expression even and sounds like both mares got a late start in life LOL
Good Luck
L
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 11:59 am:
OK, I'll ask, how old is this girl? Because, you can become the sidereins, and that may actually help her. You simply fix your hand position and hold it, allowing her to find the comfort spots. But if she is super young that can backfire.
But in order to do this, you cannot have any slack in the rein, nor should it be pulled tight. It should just be a nice softly-taught line to her mouth.
Sometimes we think we are being kind by having lots of slack in reins on a snaffle, and yes it's true unless the horse is pretty young (my opinion only) or extremely sensitive. Slack reins bounce alot on the bit, or can, and that can be bothersome to some horses. For these horses, just having a soft light feel, as in no slack in the reins helps because the bit stays more steady in their mouths. This is partly why a full cheek with keepers will help younger horses accept the bit and light contact, the bit remains much steadier in their sensitive mouths.
Anyway you can try just fixing your hands, yes put them down on the pommel, or if you have a grab strap use that. Idea is to put them in one place and hold them there. You will have to learn to match her 'pull' though in order to do this.
I find that by doing this the horse very quickly learns to trust the bit and reins, your hands, and is more apt to try to take a soft contact and stay with it.
Sorry, I don't use side reins for anything. (Have never needed them)
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Friday, Aug 7, 2009 - 1:51 pm:
She's 9, no she's not young, but in her mind she is! I have a full cheek with keepers in my bit arsenal, it's a nice bit, Mikmar with the lozenge, but stopped using it since I thought the full cheek was overkill, but maybe she doesn't like the loose ring. Maybe it isn't enough support for her. I was going to sell the full cheek. I got the loose ring since it was recommended as a good training bit. She is a horse that needs to feel supported, she is one that feels more comfortable under saddle because you are taking care of her, I think that's what she thinks! Poor thing, I keep putting different bits in her mouth trying to find what she likes best. So far the loose ring is not the best.
I try to fix my hands, but since there is so much twisting, tossing, rooting and pulling it's hard. I find myself having to make all these corrections in my hands.
Do you think she would like the full cheek better since she is very sensitive?
I rode in the bitless today but will post my findings on the bitless thread.
Adria
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 - 1:52 pm:
Adria, first I will say I am not a fan of this manufacturer bit. I think if you can fix your hand and hold it that will help regardless of the bit.
True it's not easy if she is really pulling against the contact, this is where you have to match her pull in order to hold your hands in position and keep them there. I'd give this a good try because all the 'antics' may be due to your hands and not necessarily the bit, but yes could be both. Use her neck or front of your saddle, where you can place your hands so you have added 'help' to hold them there regardless of what she does. Then you have to do this long enough to see how she responds, may be 2 minutes may be 10. You have to give her enough time to make the discovery that she can trust the rein position to not change.
Caution here is if she gets way too wound up, fighting it and starts backing, just let go of the reins. release all contact/pressure immediately.
I would see if there is a bit type/style that she will just take and stand in quietly. Or if she does this now in the bit you are using then if it is only under contact she starts these antics, chances are it's hands and not just the bit itself. Or it could still be the way the bit functions in the mouth that is uncomfy under contact. *sigh* I know, sorry not much help here am I? And she may be super happy in the bitless without any pressure on her mouth. If this is the case, and most horses tend to be much happier bitless, then it can still be the bit type, size, how it sits in the mouth and then too hands. The horse should be able to take a mild bit that fits correctly and be quiet in it and accept it.
It's always a bit of a reward to help a horse be comfy and happy in their tack, well it is for me anyway. I recently had young woman ask me what I thought her horse's problem was with not wanting to put her head down like most (western pleasure) horses and the head tossing and nose twisting she would do, plus she didn't want to be bridled. My first question was about tack fit. Nothing she had fit her horse. Her saddle was way too wide, her bit it was way too small for the horse's mouth and was pulled up way too far in the mouth by the bridle. I managed to find a bit that fit and that the horse would just accept quietly (while just standing at liberty with me just holding the bit!) so I put that on her bridle and adjusted correctly; then I measured her horse's back and put one of my saddles on her that fit much better. End result was a horse that instantly lowered her head while walking. She'd been hollowing her back and raising her head because she hurt! She stopped tossing her head and twisting her chin back and forth too. Simple and instant changes in the horse's comfort and way of going.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 - 3:35 pm:
Adria, I've already put in my to cents' worth here, but I was thinking of your mare while I was on the trail today. Since she had race training, I wanted to mention that they take hold of the reins when they want the horse to run. She may not have actually raced, but probably associates the contact with racing--maybe gives her anxiety.
The reason I like to start with side reins is that it takes the rider's guesswork out of the equation. If you are like me, you will tend to wonder "Am I holding firm enough? Too much contact? Etc." and will be unlikely to keep your fixed hand. With the side reins, your horse can be certain that the contact won't change unless she changes it. See what I'm getting at? If she is worried or anxious, she can depend on the side reins in a way that she cannot when a rider is holding the reins.
If you think you can do a fixed hand without second-guessing yourself, go ahead, but if you are inclined to change it up, I would start without a rider.
If you don't have side reins, you can just separate your reins and tie them at the girth, low and slightly long as Leslie pointed out. (I tie the outside one just a bit longer than the inside to make the bend easier).
Good luck.
Erika
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 - 8:44 pm:
Leslie, how is Pumpkin progressing? I think the side reins on the lunge would help her to balance with out the rider, and find her own contact. I have them just never used them. I'll also try fixing my hands the way you suggest, Terrie.
I think it is a combination of bit and my hands, she has done this since I've had her, at one point when I first had her, her head tossing was so bad, but I had the vet in to check her teeth and they hadn't been done in a while, so that did stop the violent head tossing. She does seem to have a low palate, this is why I use the french links. The more I think about it I think the loose ring is not cutting it for her,maybe too much play, I did have her in a Dee ring before, but I just tried the loose ring to see how she went, not good obviously!
Will it confuse her too much if I go back and forth between the bitless and a bit? I see some of you use the bitless for hacking or just schooling etc. I don't want to mess her up more.
I know the bit causes her anxiety, hence the tooth grinding. Bitless she did not grind.
Thank you for thinking of her while on the trail, Erika, the things we think of when just doing something that lets our mind relax, I was thinking about Anky and Rollkur while I was mowing the pasture!!!! Couldn't get it out of my head and how Rollkur disgusts me...
I'm going to give the bitless bridle a serious try and see how we do, she did respond well, no evasion and she was straight! If maybe I could do the side reins and lunging in conjunctions with the bitless.
Today she was quite funny, playing with the dog, she is a funny horse anyway, likes to steal stuff from your pockets, open things, if I leave the muck bucket in the barn she'll carry it out, she's gets into stuff like a puppy. Once I left a bag of Sweet PDZ for about 5 mins, and she opened it, got it all over, big mess, bad girl! She's very curious about everything
Thanks for such great advice, and feedback
Adria
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 - 9:39 pm:
Adria
Punky was only under saddle about 6 months, I started her at age 7. The side reins really helped her. After I started using them the head tossing and grinding stopped. It took alittle while but it did work. Interesting is that she has the same neck carriage/build as your mare. maybe that has something to do with it. I noticed that after using the sidereins, she started building nicer neck muscles and maybe that made it easier to come into the bit. Sheesh...when I started her she was a serious headtosser,rooter. I tried fixing my hand, bridging the reins, I even tied a straP on my saddle to lock my pinkies onto.
She has been diagnosed with mild Nav synDrOme and I decided to retire her. (lol, she never really was ever in work)She is a lady of leisure.
All the Best
Leslie
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 1:11 pm:
Adria, I have to agree with Erika in that she may well associate the contact with racing and get anxious about that. May well be a part of this equation.
Use side reins, or don't. On longe maybe but then the line shouldn't connect to the bit. My suggestion, just my thoughts here. Use a longe cavesson too. Side reins to bit, longe line to center ring on cavesson. Unless you are an expert at longing, that is. The objective is to not interfere so much in her mouth just yet, but allow her to find her comfort level with 'solid contact'. By attaching the longe line to the bit you will be putting more sideways pressure on it and not in a way you would if mounted. Again I am not a fan of side reins. This is just me, I don't like to use gadgets even though it may take longer for a final result.
If you choose to use them, and if you also use them while mounted and riding, you will still need to train your hands to become as fixed as those side reins. Just please don't resort to draw reins. Bad enough to be mounted and have side reins on. Why do I caution against this idea? Because you need to be able to fully release the pressure also. With side reins you cannot do that especially when mounted. Better to learn to fix your hand, trial and error may be better than nothing here too. Use the saddle to help you, it's ok to put the heels of your hands on the pommel and try to keep them there no matter what. Heck if I can do it, I know you can do it. It's a matter of just trying it to see how difficult it will be, or not. She may surprise you.
If you use side reins keep the sessions very short at first, no mare than maybe five minutes to begin with. After that time loosen fully or remove them. You have to give her a break after all, a reward as it were, too.
Incidently you can help her build strength and gorgeous topline on longe without use of side reins, but just with a decent longe cavesson. But that's another thread.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 1:49 pm:
Adria
Also, when I longed I thread my longe line thru the inside bit ring, under chin and attach to outside ring.( you can also go thru inside, over poll to otherside.) I never just attach it to the inside bit ring.
I didnt have a longeing cavesson. (Probably would have been easier to use as far as changing direction goes....as long as your SR's are same length) I use a flat longe line(slides easily), absolutely no chain.
And as Terrie says..start slow 3-5 minutes. unattach the side reins and massage the neck.
I used side reins only at the trot.
L
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 4:40 pm:
Leslie is correct, you can attach a longe line to the bit either below, under chin, or above, up over poll. I prefer to go over poll to help add pressure there instead of all on the mouth/jaw. You can also use an attachment that clips to the bit on both sides and goes under the chin and has a ring to connect the longe line to. The ring slips along the strap keeping more or less even pressure on the bit. Plus you can easily change direction. ;)
For straight longing you can use the side reins at walk and I would begin there, not only at trot. If she won't take the contact of them at walk quietly, you can forget trotting. Just remember to start slowly as Leslie points out, long setting always at beginning and then up one and work again. No more than 'two settings' per work session. Keep those sessions very short because they will be very intense probably.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it's going.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 7:08 am:
Adria,
Just thinking I will throw this into the discussion. IMO, your horse is saying "quit holding my head so tight!!!" You can demand she keep it in place, or you can teach her to willingly keep it there.
In natural horsemanship, we never have the head tossing problem. We teach the horse to yield at the poll, first while standing, then walk, trot, canter. You do this by putting pressure on the reins, setting your hands on your thighs, and holding until the horse DrOps their head, then immediately releasing. By that I mean DrOpping the reins completely, throw them away. If she fights you don't release, but if she DrOps her head even the slightest bit, release. Teach her little by little, first rewarding the slightest try, then increase your demand until she DrOps her head to exactly the place you want. You do this over and over until they know in an instant when she feels you pick up on the reins to DrOp her head. Then you begin waiting longer and longer to release which will teach her to hold it there until you say stop. They learn to hold their heads with no pressure on the reins at all and puts all the responsibility of head placement on themselves. I know in dressage you have release, but it is the giant release in the early training that teaches, especially with a horse like yours. As your mare progresses, your release can be less obvious. This is how western riders can achieve collection on a loose rein.
In your video you ride her for a long time with contact. At first, she is pretty good about it and then she starts throwing her fit. You are holding her too long, IMO. Shorter sessions with contact, then let the reins out. Let her know she did something right with a big reward and give her time to work into the longer sessions.
Good luck, you two look great together.
Linda
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Good point Linda and is worth a try Adria.
;) it's way fun to get nice collection on NO rein! Not just loose but nothing there at all, not even a bit.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 6:16 am:
I know from long term posting that Linda has been successful with her NH methods. I like what you are saying here, too.
I have a small question about what you wrote though, Linda. I recall John Lyon's article I once read recommended what you are saying, but he started with one rein at a time. After the horse "got it" with one at a time, he would ask with both, but not until the one rein response was automatic. Is this something you do also? Or do you find it doesn't make that much difference?
The only hitch I can see in teaching "no contact" is if Adria is planning on showing her horse. English and dressage judges would penalize the lack of contact. If your goal is just to enjoy your horse, and vice versa, I think it would be an excellent method to try.
Also wanted to add that I love learning right along with everyone. Even when I give my opinions I am digesting everyone else's, and picking up lots of good stuff to file into my little pea brain! Thanks.
Erika
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 7:14 am:
Erika, thanks for the kudos. Your question is not so easy to answer. Using one rein, we are taught to bring the head from side to side, looking for softness before releasing. Lateral flexion is the key to vertical flexion. I am presuming that Adrias horse already has lateral flexion or she would not be proceeding to vertical. NH is a system of training and works best if followed in an order. However, this particular training exercise can be used on its own with success, as other exercises that I frequently post about.
I am not so sure I agree that you are teaching "no contact". I often ride my horse with contact and he is trained in this method. What I have is very light contact. He knows where to keep his head even though he feels the reins and bit. There is ever so slight a DrOop in the reins because he is not pulling or pushing against them. I did not ride him this way in the beginning, but now he fully understands when there is pressure to DrOp his head and when I release, he should keep it in that place. My release at this point, is very slight, no more than a lightening of my hands. Does that not describe riding with contact?
The biggest difference is in the early training. Back then, I gave him huge release to really let him know he did the right thing. NH teaches us to exaggerate to teach, then refine. So gradually I gave less. The horse in the video is searching for a release and not getting it. In my opinion, because the release is not big enough or long enough. It is the release that teaches.
I don't do dressage, but it seems hard to imagine it would be a penalty to have a willing horse that is soft and relaxed, carrying his head where you want while you ride with light contact. Again, I am only tossing this out for the sake of discussion. Each person has to make their own choice in training and do what is comfortable for themselves and their horse.
Linda
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 7:37 am:
Thanks for the clarification, Linda. I think I inadvertantly combined yours and Terrie's last reponses in that little pea brain of mine!
Erika
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 15, 2009 - 2:25 pm:
Linda, in dressage we want exactly that, a forward horse that is light and soft in connection, that self carries.... we can put slack in reins and the horse's overall way of carriage and going doesn't change. But they remain "on contact" even so.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 15, 2009 - 6:08 pm:
Ladies,
Sorry for being absent, things get a bit crazy, fencing water line etc! Linda your observation is correct, I do feel like I am holding her, In the video she is actually rushing and im her forward mood so she was even pulling. She is very well trained and she was started in NHmanship that is of course after she was started as a racehorse!
She is very sensitive to pressure, her lateral flexion is great, it is the vertical flexion we are working on. I have not tried the method you describe to work on vertical flexion only the lateral flexion. I will definitely start working with that method.
We had a really good lesson the other day, my trainer ( new trainer whom I had only worked with once last fall came up and she is really good. Basically Rose is crooked to the right, this might be due to compensating for her right stifle. She only twists to the right, on both reins, so she had me work on straightening her by leg yielding, softly stabilizing the right and then using direct left rein till she gave to the left and the release. She also emphasizes concentrating on keeping her shoulders straight. She started going much straighter. As soon as she gave to the left, she immediately gave vertically and went soft, so her head twisting to the right is an evasion, probably a learned reaction. We need to do this on both reins, and working on the quarter line helps her a lot.
I haven't done the side reins yet, when she starts to get straighter and have more even contact it may help her. Right now she is responding well to the lateral work.
I'll keep y'all posted
Adria
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