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  Discussion on What would be ideal pre-saddle training?
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Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 9:34 pm:

For the last few years, I've been buying yearlings and putting a year of daily handling and pre-saddle training on them and selling them as two year olds ready to go on to under saddle training either with a trainer or by a knowledgeable and committed owner. My goal is to have these youngsters so trainable, co-operative and respectful they NEVER end up at an auction! I'm hoping Dennis and some of you who do saddle training will help me out. What would you like a two year old to know that comes to you for training? I do a lot of basic ground manners, lots of bomb proofing, etc. All the Parelli games except the circling game, which makes no sense to me. They load, haul, cross tie, stand for the farrier or vet like ladies and gentlemen. They do stand quietly for saddling and mounting by the time they're ready to go. They will lunge calmly at walk, trot, canter, and whoa and back, with one ear on you reading body language and listening for word cues. They will give to pressure, sidepass, turn on the forehand or haunches and ground drive. They will cross obstacles, etc. I've heard some trainers say they prefer the young horses that come to them not have any handling. So, back to my question--when a young horse comes to you for training, what would you prefer they have already had done?
Member:
hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 10:26 pm:

Yeah, sure . . . I can think of some things . . . How 'bout accounting, taxes, and making the weekly grocery run?
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 11:00 pm:

I'm with Holly-- add light housework and a few knock-knock jokes for the kids.

The only other "trick" I put on my babies that I like is to come when called. All my horses respond to "come on horse!" which is handy in many scenarios, especially the "long walk through the horse pasture" or the "why are you in the pond instead of the pasture" scenario.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 8:52 am:

Julie,

It sounds like these 2 year olds know more than most adult horses!

What kind of feedback do you get from the buyers? If you added Frank Bell's bonding and intimacy to the program, (which may be something similar to Parelli?)I can't think of anything else these lucky youngsters need.

I love a horse that knows to GO when I point and say "OUT, or "GO"...very helpful when they are all are loose in my barn and need to head out a specific door.

I've always heard that the most useless age to sell a horse is a 2 year old. Lately it seems that yearlings are the hard ones to sell around here. People want cute babies or bomb proof older horses. Just curious, how's the market for your horses? I've considered doing what you're doing, my husband isn't interested and in all reality I probably don't have the experience/determination to make it worthwhile.

In other words, if I bought 4-5 yearlings, I'd end up with that many 5 year olds, lol!
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 9:13 am:

Julie ... Great job.
The trainers who say that obviously have not had any of your horses. I do agree however, that we get many in that have been babied way too much and have no respect whatsoever. A lot of work and time is required to get the basics down.

I start all horses in for training with basically your same program .. when I get them in, I use this as a means of assessing their progress and level of training ... With your horses, I would be way ahead of the game. I would still test them on all these fundamentals, but would not have to spend so much time retraining, or developing the foundation.

The only thing I would ask you to add is gettin' those first few "adventure" rides out of the way ......

DT
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 11:18 am:

BTW Julie .. I agree with you on the Parelli "Circle Game". The way it is done makes no sense to me, and in fact, I think it is a bad thing to teach the horse. The way I understand it, you are teaching the horse to always face you.
I am working now with a "Parelli" trained 3yo gelding and our first challenge was to get to his side. He always wanted to face me .. which I consider to be same as "blocking" me.

I use the sending exercises, but in a way that encourages disengaging rear, turn on fore, turn on haunches, etc. but this constantly facing thing seems to be a pain to me. Maybe I don't understand the principle, but when the horse would not let me step to his side, his owners said "that is what he is trained to do". When I asked why, they had no answer. Maybe some of the Parelli folks can help me out. I am sure there is a reason for this, I just don't know what it is.

One other point that I saw with this horse, that I think you are on top of is that the horse seemed to be able to do all the "tricks", but was not calm. soft and responsive while doing them ... He was brought to me because he was a "runaway" who bolted and DrOpped both his owners on separate occasions. Had he had your start, this would most likely have never happened. So many people are so anxious to get to the tricks, they skip the most important part of confidence building and calming.

DT
Member:
jerre

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 12:17 pm:

Hi all,

As I understand the Parelli circling game, the primary points are:
Don't change gait
Don't change direction

It's to develop appropriate response to the amount of energy in the send. The actual circle is the "allow" phase. The horse's responsibility is to maintain the human's intention until asked to change.

Level 1 teaches the gross motor skills and basic mechanics.
Level 2 adds distance and obstacles, so the horse is not asked for endless mindless circles, but should maintain gait on uneven ground, over poles or low jumps, around barrels, etc.
Level 3 adds more distance and includes more transitions, including backup.

At first the game ends with the horse ASKED to come in. But it progresses to transitions on the circle -- including halt. The Parelli program makes a big point of not getting stuck at Level 1, because it can create habits and boredom (!) for the horse. But, as is human nature, a lot of people start a program (horses or whatever) and then never go beyond the beginning steps. (Interestingly, the Parelli program adds information on the nature of adult home learners to try to help folks through this.)

And Parelli horses should certainly allow a handler to stand at any point of their body.

But, as I'm sure everyone is very aware, every horse/human pair has its own dynamic, and every system is only as good as the person applying it. And not that there's fault with the system or the person -- sometimes we just don't know what we don't know!

I've been studying PNH for a few years and am in transition from Level 2 to Level 3.

Jerre
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 12:19 pm:

Hi all - I am not a Parelli expert by any means, and do not particularly like the circle game. The reason - I learned to lunge a horse and have it listen to voice commands and that seems to work so well - why change it?

However, regarding the horse you are working with, Dennis - I do not believe he has been taught correctly. The circle game should not have the horse facing in to the human until the hind end gets disengaged. The horse is supposed to circle the human until the handler directs energy toward the hind quarter - upon which it should disengage, stop, and face the handler.

Again - I prefer lunging to the circle game, and take issue with those that say lunging is letting your horse run around in circles mindlessly - because you can so easily teach the horse to transition (either up or down) with voice commands. Just my own prejudice, I guess.

However - I do know that often when people have trouble with Parelli trained horses, the reason is that the training was not done correctly. Some people say that the horses have lost all personality and perform the tasks without joy - and that is not what is intended at all.

Good luck,
Lilo
Member:
juliem

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 6:23 pm:

Thank you all so much for your response! Angie, the people who have bought my two year olds are all very happy with them, those who went to professional trainers are star pupils, so I'm told! I don't make any money, but I love to do ground work and it pays for my fun!
Dennis, thanks for taking the time to help me out! I don't use a round pen much for the same reasons as I don't like the circling game. I like the colts to focus on me and try to find the right answer rather than just "react!" Same reason I don't try to get the "hot reactive action" you often see. I'm going for calm. My theory is you can always light a horse up, but it's not so easy to bring them back down! My assumption is that by starting them looking for answers, they can go on to specific training without any resistance or fear. I don't know if that's correct--I'm just going on gut. Now Dennis, as to the first few rides--I do get on them, wiggle all over their bodies, slide on and off, etc. I do mount them saddled and if they want to walk around, fine, but I'm too old for adventure rides!! That's why they go on to someone else at that point!! You cowboys would be out of business if all us little old ladies started riding broncs! How about we start a joint venture?
Angie, I think I will look into Frank Bell--he sounds like he's more my style.
Jerre and Lilo, I agree, Parelli turns into just tricks if it's not done right. What makes sense to me I use, but what either doesn't make sense, or gets in the way of something else that does work for me, I just omit. I think there's much to be learned from every trainer. One thing we need to keep in mind is that each horse is different, and each PERSON is different too. One reason I don't like the circling game is that I ask for a lot of transitions when I lunge, for a couple of reasons. I like transitions within a gait as well as between gaits. I don't think it's good for young horses to do a lot of small circles. Too hard on joints and tissues.
Another question: Am I limiting my market by making sure these babies are calm and quiet? Actually, maybe I can answer that myself--I probably don't want them to go to people that are looking for a "hot" horse! Please keep ideas coming and also criticisms. I really want every one of these youngsters to have long, loving careers and homes.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 10:33 pm:

Julie,

I think you've got it figured out. I am at the age now also where I'd rather have to wake a horse up than bring him back down to earth, lol! (surely you've read some of my posts about Tango?)

And taking something from each trainer is what seems to work the best. Tango (who else?) taught me that Clinton Anderson's way isn't right for every horse. As for Parelli, I have his book he put out many years ago, and to this day I can't stand reading it! Watching him is entertaining, and it must serve some purpose to "play" with a horse...but it don't appeal to me. I guess I think of playing with an animal more like playing with a dog...throw the ball, fetch the ball, etc.

As for limiting your market, I bet I could take one of your calm, quiet horses and get 'em "hot".

It was DT who suggested Frank Bell's program to me for Tango, and it is different from others' methods. The emphasis on bonding anyhow is different.

I always thought I wanted to buy 2 year olds and start them. What a neat idea, buy yearlings and get them ready to be started under saddle.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 11:49 pm:

Here's my girl for this year: We had only "played" with the tarp about one minute before she was fine with it and looking for new things to do with it.Latte with tarpLatte, well dressed
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 12:15 am:

Angie, I missed the posts on Tango--do you remember the name of the thread?
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 3:31 am:

Frank Bell enthusiasts - does anyone know if there are any of his materials that can be used in Europe? (ie in correct video or DVD format as the US formats don't work here?) Are there any books and if so are they well-written or with good pictures? [I am still a big fan of the British Horse Society bookshop which contains many old fashioned books with few pictures that are simply written very well... more useful info for your money than many DVDs/videos...]

Thanks

Imogen
Member:
dove2

Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 8:52 am:

Julie, I love the colors on your tarp! I've only seen drab brown or blue ones. And what a pretty girl you have! You must have done a great job with her, getting her to be so confident.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 9:36 am:

The book is available at www.horsewhisperer.com; I think he only has the one book which goes with the first video. If you read the many articles on his website, you get a good feel for what he does, and how he does it. If you are squeamish about having your finger in a horses nose while rubbing under his tail, it's not for you, grin! Actually you don't have to have your finger in the nose, but it is an area he has you rub and work to bond with the horse.

Denny, look what you've started here!! LOL!!

Julie,

Let's see: "flinging front feet for farrier", "need help training timid horse" or something like that. "Despooking ideas wanted"

If you wish, we could privately email each other. I'd love to get your thoughts on what you'd do with him. And if you ever got a horse like him in, it'd maybe benefit you too.

You can email me at fancy4jatgmaildotcom. Just put TangoHA in the subject line.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 10:37 am:

I totally agree Imogen--I get so much more out of a book than a DVD. And you can go back to certain passages whenever you want so much easier. I think the clinicians are just lazy--it takes a ton more effort to write a book than have someone with a video camera film you. Oh yeah, they do make a LOT more money with DVDs!
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