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Discussion on Communication
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New Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 8:24 pm:
Many people wont agree with me - until you try it. I have begun talking to my horses, visualizing what I want them to do, sometimes even before mounting. The results are astounding. It doesnt replace using aids and proper training procedures, but who doesnt want a horse to be calm when she is in a situation that she normally isnt? To be prepared for what is coming up? Talk to them like you would another person, visualizing exactly what you expect. We have all thought that our horse was reading our minds - well, let's give him what we want him to do - not what we don't want to happen.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2007 - 9:52 pm:
Beth, have done that for years and it works! My husbands gelding had a fit the first time husband went on business trip. So everytime a trip has come up since my husband shows a picture to Zarr and uses hills for days to tell how long the trip will be and he always visualizes coming back over the same hills to home and Zarr! It makes life much easier when he is gone. Use the same for many things but that is the best example! All four of our horses understand many words and phrases even ones I didn't know they knew til it happens! Cindy
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 9:11 am:
Hi Beth- welcome to HA.
I talk to mine also- tho I am not 100% convinced they always know what I'm saying- I think they react more to the tone of my voice, how they have reacted in the past sure makes me wonder tho just how much they do know.
My horses talk to me too, especially when Im late in feeding-lol- might be good I don't know what 'they' are saying.
Several months ago we had a discussion here on whether horses are capable of reasoning, you might enjoy reading that thread, it is in general interests section.
Cindy- Zarr sounds like a neat horse- maybe a little too smart for his own good?
Chris
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 9:39 am:
Verbal communication is tough enough between people who speak the same language . . . so I don't believe horses can understand whole sentences and thoughts expressed by whole sentences.
I do believe that horses understand tone and over time, horses learn "words" when we are consistent with the way in which we use them, and I believe that is because our body language reinforces those tones and words and reflects our intentions. Talking out loud can relax us as we attempt to understand our own feelings, and that relaxation we feel is reflected in our bodies becoming more relaxed . . . and horses are drawn to peace, security, safety . . . they HATE to be afraid . . . so they will show more desire to be with a person who conveys an "aura" of security and confidence.
It's been mentioned in past discussions, and I will mention it here . . . Oskar Pfungst's CLEVER HANS is a fascinating study of how body language reflects our verbalization, visualization, and subsequent effects on the horses and people in our lives. Dominique Barbier and John Lyons are two of many horse lovers/trainers who believe that what we visualize is reflected in our body carriage and, thus, the signals we send to our horses. When we verbalize our feelings or what we want our feelings to be, our bodies and movements change, and horses are wired to NOTICE movement, however slight.
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New Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 9:44 am:
Yes, they reason-like horses.My mare Twinkle reasoned that she did not want to sidepass over top of a 5-gal bucket like I asked. So she sidepassed to it, took one step back, sidepassed 2 steps over to the other side of the bucket, stepped forward, and sidepassed 2 more steps until I was about to fall off laughing. No confrontation, just a solution to what we both wanted, she thought.
She also keeps an eye on her jealous gelding lover and steps between him and another horse he is about to charge. Sometimes going to some trouble get there. I have other stories, like I bet Cindy does too.
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New Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 9:57 am:
Holly - while I agree with you that body language and our too subtle energy changes shout to horses, Listen to this true story: I asked my cat to stop scratching the window screens to come in, just meow at the door. And she has done so ever since. I talked to Jealous Jake (who I realized had no horse social skills and so resorted to violence to keep another horse with him) about how happy he'd be if he'd start leading the others in and out to pasture as there wasnt a leader at the time. That the others would look to him. AND IT BEGAN HAPPENING!! Then I talked to him about how to be friendly (swishing tails in shade,scratching withers). AND IT BEGAN HAPPENING. He is a changed horse - content, keeps weight on, and uses horse-body language to move the other horse instead of attacking to kill. MAJOR changes. And of course I give full credit to the other horses for working with him to make a peaceful herd. All my body language and energy changes couldnt do this. Just talking and showing him a way to get what he wanted desperately.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:10 am:
Beth .... my wife wants to know why it doesn't work with "husbands"...
DT
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:11 am:
Well, I can't refute what you have shared, Beth, but I do have a question . . .
Why do we need to have horse trainers or train our horses at all? Why not just sit them down and talk to them in a classroom setting and train 30 at once?
Something isn't making sense to me here.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:12 am:
Lower life-form, Dennis . . .
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New Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:31 am:
Holly and Dennis' wife - because it is not Mind Control. It is communication. The Horse, Dog, Cat, Husband, or whatever still has to choice to accept, refuse, negotiate, reply or stonewall you. (Not unlike our kids) Which also implies that you need to be open to their replies and negotiations. Yes, if you are open, they are there.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:47 am:
Beth,
Would you come talk to my troubled horse? O.K., and my husband too? (good one Dennis)
Seriously, maybe you have some unique way of communicating there that not everyone has?
I have read that horses learn from watching. And I do beleive that. Letting younger horses watching you ride older ones I think helps them be more accepting of the saddle and bridle.
I am thinking this communication is more a case of you being very calm and talking quietly with good body language and relaxing the horse so he's more receptive to whatever it is you want from him.
I will try this though. I will not say "o.k., you SOB, behave yourself" I will say: "sweetheart, you are so handsome and calm and you are a wonderful guy and we are going to enjoy our time together"
Yes, I am talking to the horse, not my husband! LOL!!!!
Fascinating. Love to hear more examples.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:58 am:
Hi Beth,
I like to refer to it as common sense. I thought at one time that my horse understood English  But now I realize he just knows me and my body language very very well. We do chat, but it's by observing.
Here's the link to the reasoning thread:
Edited to add that I agree that visualization is a great tool because it helps to put us in the positive, which leads to feeling confident, which then leads to the horse thinking of you as its passive leader. This is not the be all/end all, but it does help!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 11:36 am:
Beth, yes many stories from here manners is a human concept hard to convey even within our selves but if my horses start rough housing I yell manners out the backdoor and they are done. Go around is another concept but if I say go around they will go around the barn ,down and around a lower gate or around a small tree, what ever has presented its self? !Carrots, they love but if I say little then little bites are taken?? It goes on & on from there!
Chris, yes Zarr is way too smart!
Dennis, husbands have a malady called "selective hearing loss " it does tend to impede communication! Cindy
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 3:14 pm:
I'm with you, Holly. I talk to my horse all the time but it seems he responds better when I shut up and let my body do the talking. During this past year, I've been working hard on overcoming a bad incident. One big change I made is now I get a thought in my mind of how I want to ride my horse. By that I mean I visualize myself being totally relaxed and confident; basically just having fun riding him. I soon feel my body become exactly what I visualize and my horse responds to my softer frame and posture.
Last night, we had a new person doing chores at the stable where I board. She seems more a "type A" personality and when things weren't going her way, she let out loud comments. All the horses were riled up and reacting to her vocalizing. Like you said Holly, they reacted in a way that said they do not like being around her.
One day, I was hand walking my horse out on the trails. He came to a "scarey" spot and slipped on a rock. He spooked and jumped ten feet away from me. I stood on the rock, lifted my arms up and said "what are you so afraid of?? See, I can stand on this rock!" He immediately came to me and stuck like glue to my side the rest of the walk. He was not hearing my words, did not know what they meant, but he felt my reassurance and knew he was safe staying near me.
I love animals as much as any of you, but I don't think they give a rat's butt about our language. They have their own language and are perfectly comfortable in this world using it. They seek for us to communicate with them in their language. They may learn our words, but they learn far more from the non-verbal messages we send them. We just don't notice that stuff the way they do so we assume the words are what made them behave differently. IMHO.
As for husbands, hmmm. I can wink or smile and send a message my husband figures out pretty quickly. . .
Linda
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 3:53 pm:
Holly, too quick and too funny! Made me laugh out loud!
Sometimes I think we communicate better with out horses when we visualize. Not necessarily because they "see" the picture in out mind, but because when we visualize what we want, we may be clearer in our own mind what we want and are hoping to achieve with our horse, and thus are clearer in our actions toward them. I usually try to visualize what response I want to get from a young horse I'm working with, mostly so I will be clear in my actions. I think I get better results this way and while I wish it was because they could "see" what I want, I think it's because it enables me to be clearer and more precise in my actions. Speaking of "clear", this really isn't a very clear explanation is it?
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New Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 4:41 pm:
Interesting how many of us agree that body language and visualizing (which affects our body language) has a positive effect on both our horses and ourselves with our horses. And I will accept that my animals may not know a dictionary full of English. But when I visualize a specific action as I say or think the words, such as leading the other horses in & out from the pasture or meowing instead of scratching the screen, and they respond independently of my presence, what am I to think then? These were not new habits they changed, but old ones. If they dont know English very extensively, then maybe they must be getting some mental telepathy. What are my other choices?
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Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 4:56 pm:
And yes, I am learning to communicate telepathically with my animals - check out "Animal Communicators" under Search. Quite a few times they have sent me messages about something important to them - several years ago a puppy was dumped on my road and I told her I'd call her Kelly Girl because she was Temporary (if you recognize that "ad jingle", it tells your age). Four years later, she comes and sits down beside me, not asking for petting, and suddenly I know that she "doesnt want to be Temporary anymore". What could I say, but "OK, you are Kelly the Permanent Dog now." And she goes wild with happiness. I give riding lessons and the 2 geldings were the lesson horses with Twinkle staying in her stall during these times. I kept getting the idea that she wanted to be part of it. Finally I said to her, "OK, we'll try it, but you must stand tied to the side quietly until the end, then gently ride each little girl a few minutes to see how everyone does." She was perfect and was so obviously taking care of the girls as they learned to ride with a lighter touch. She is now a regular lesson horse with the better students - I am not sure she doesnt regret it sometimes, but we remind her that she wanted in, so get with the program and she does.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 5:04 pm:
Coincidence? Isn't it possible they would have done these things from their own volition? Not as enjoyable to think, I suppose. Now, can we put science to this and test the theory?
Linda
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 10:38 pm:
Most people tend to relax when they talk, I suspect that helps the horse more than the words. I often talk my horses through a situation that I feel could turn sour. Is it the words or me relaxing in a tense situation?
Visualization on the other hands is a good tool in general. It's common in professional sports, the military, selling and I suspect the list goes on and on to prepare for a difficult task. I've been reading Centered Riding by Sally Swift and she promotes visualization continually through out the book.
I'll draw the line at telepathic communication, I'm afraid they'd learn how simple I really am and I'd loose the herd boss position
Good day,
Alden
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New Member:
elzedor
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 12:54 pm:
Hi,
I do believe the talking acts more on us than on the horses. See I talk french to my horses, it keeps me relaxed, shows love to my horses (which I think helps them being in the agreeing mood)and of course gives me a relax tone of voice. Mostly just avoiding getting made with horses gives you a long way.
I do have to agree that sometimes the animals in general seems to figure out what we are saying, but I just think it so happens that they decided the same thing we where thinking with their own mind.
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Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 3:04 pm:
Scientific proof? It will come one day. Has anyone looked up "Animal Communicators"? In the meantime, we will just have to go with what works and my animals all tell me that they understand - words, thoughts, and body language. Sometimes I can ask Twinkle to tell Jake to cool it if he is getting himself in a dither in his stall and wont listen to me. And amazingly, he settles down soon after. And Kelly the Permanent Dog and Twinkle Toes the Light-footed Arabian (she named herself) will continue to send me important (to them) messages. So listen up, all of you, to what is coming at you!
And dont worry about being "found out" that you arent Einstein - too late, they already know it and still let you boss them around. No one, humans or animals, judges a leader or an alpha by their brains. Followers choose leaders for their good judgment, and sometimes that includes using someone else's talents. For an alpha, it's the willingness to engage in violence to defend one's status. Leaders and Alphas are not always the same. In my herd, Jake is leader, but Twinkle is the alpha. She however uses feminine wiles and her expectation that everyone knows she is boss. Herd and pack animals need leaders. So if you have proven to your horse that he can trust you as a leader, he's fine. If not, then he is leader and you may not be having such a good time, unless you have a babysitter horse. Bless them!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 11:24 am:
I have a tendency to be quite emotional, when I get nervous, I squeeze my legs tight, grab up on the reins, do just about everything wrong. I have decided now, to SING , When I start getting nervous, I just bust out in song, not that I can carry a tune, but my horses don't seem to care. It seems to bring my anxiety level down, and I can feel my horse relax as well. My riding partners, just plug their ears and chuckle.
I have been training people and dogs for years, and I do believe we communicate with very subtle ways, especially the smell we emit to our dogs, which they are tuned into.
I had a friend in New Mexico work with an animal communicator for a dog behaviour problem. She believed the lady talked to her dog, but . . . I had a horse communicator/chiro work with my horse for chiro, he said my horse told him he had an ulcer. He has not shown any symptoms of ulcer, that I could recognize, but he tried to sell me some "stuff" to help.
I personally try to be open to the universe for all things, just more comfortable in a more scientific/logical approach to my personal training techniques.
Very interesting topic though.
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 1:00 pm:
There is an article that I just read "that dog over there is laughing " it turns out that scientist have recorded dog laughter ? But if we who have them think for a moment we've heard that all along. Human preception of what is and what we THINK it should be often shroud what is truth and we miss so much mother nature trys to share. All human babies spend the first years learning by observation and imitation , body language,just like all young. What happens next with these early lessons is what fasinates me! My universe has no fences ! Have had a dog who understood over 200 words and even spelled out words, not just from me but anyone who asked ... another dog was just a big love sponge here to just give and recieve lots of love. Most have been somewhere between the two. Look at how much the scientfic world has changed what was sci-fi is now fact, what we thought the natural world was is no longer ... in time who knows !! Cindy
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Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 2:18 pm:
Sad to say, one bad apple spoils the barrel - as in your chiro/communicator. Did he help your horse as a chiro? I have had a massage therapist out several times to help poor Jake who was so bound up in tight muscles, he could hardly canter even loose without a lot of concentration. After 2 visits, she has made more difference than I ever believed possible. And talk about communication! He was telling her by putting his nose to his side that he needed massage in this spot too. No trusting that telepathy that people usually ignore, just be obvious about it! I have seen several horses do the same thing during a massage.
Years ago I did a little local showing. Sometimes when I was sitting on my mare between classes, she would start throwing her head up and down, up and down. Feet didnt move, not other motion, just the head throwing. Finally she got thru to me that I was getting awfully tense and she didnt like it. So I would take a few long deep breaths and relax and she'd stop. Until I did it again at the next show. Nice to have her looking after my nerves.
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Member:
starda01
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 3:09 pm:
So Beth,
What has Jimi told you lately? 
BTW, fellow HA members, Beth is my sister, to whom I gifted a membership to HA. She has my horse, Jimi, with her other 3, happily in retirement.
Sara
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 3:29 pm:
I can't help chiming into this discussion. I, too, believe very strongly that horses and many animals, in general, try to communicate with us. My horses and dogs knows many words. But then, I consistently use them over and over again when talking to them, and they come to associate the word and action.
This morning, my horses were miserable with the flies and "asked" to be taken in to their stall. First, my horse trotted after me as I was leaving the paddock. Then, he put his foot on the gate and kept it there. I had already been debating whether to put them inside today because the flies were more numerous than before, and I know they sensed my indecision.
I guess if I weren't open to their input, I would have just walked away and not given it a second thought. They would have met up with a blank wall: me. But their request couldn't have been more clear than if they had asked me with words.
So far, my horses have learned many human words, language and actions. They know a lot more than the words for walk, trot and canter, that's for sure. But I really try to learn their desires and ideas. I tested my horse the other week about thinking to take the right turn at the path but not looking at it, and sure enough, he did. He knows that I am trying to be open to him and his ideas, and I think he then tries harder to communicate with me. He's very different from the horses that have quit trying to communicate with humans and just do what's asked. My horse is only 5 years old.
As I've mentioned before, I truly believe that clicker training opens the door for the horse to show his intelligence. They "get it" so quickly and it almost seems like they discover an opportunity to demonstrate that they are really intelligent beings. At least, that's what happened to my daughter's late mare who was previously abused through overuse and ill-fitting tack.
That's so cool, Beth, that you took the time to make the connection with your horse's head bobbing. So many folks would have just assigned that to her just being an ornery horse.
I've thought long and hard about the fact that we humans have some brain abilities that other animals might not have or have developed a little more than other animals (specifically reasoning skills). But at the same time, I believe we have lost a lot of our "nature" abilities. We are the least skilled creatures on earth with our senses.
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 5:08 pm:
I hesitate to jump in, but this is a true story that I wouldn't believe if it had not happened to me. I keep my two arab geldings under my large deck surrounded by the lower floor of the house on three sides. They love this arrangement and are both housebroken except for my young guy. Early in the am before breakfast he would always take this huge pee in his stall. When I would come down to feed he would happily go outside as usual to pee and did that for the rest of the day. But the spot inside was so saturated that I called it Lake Balki (his name). I tried everything--moving mats around, putting out lime, etc. but he always managed to find the spot to pee in just in the morning. I would have to take a shovel to toss the pee beyond their stalls. This went on for 3 years and my vacation feeder guy would complain about it also as they have very good bathroom habits otherwise. Two summers ago I got very weak and sick with something for 9 days and ran a fever, etc. I could barely make it downstairs to feed the horses. Going down in the am and confronting that lake of pee was more than I could handle. So about 4 days into my illness, I went down as usual and as I was shoveling out the pee I had a serious talk with my horse. I explained to him that I was too sick to do this anymore and I just could not handle it. I said he was good boy when he went outside to pee and bad when he went inside in his lake. I talked to him for about 10 minutes, finished cleaning up, feeding and went back to bed. That was the last time he ever peed in his stall!! After several days I called my vacation feeder and told him the story. He couldn't believe it either. Now it is two years. Lots of people theorize that he changed because of something else I did, but this is exactly how it happened. As I said it is unbelievable, but true.
Gail
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 5:30 pm:
Gail, have seen/heard this kind of responce before so I believe and it is a shame that they understand us much better than the reverse. Dove2 is right the disconnect between mankind and nature has allowed our senses to dull and we miss much! Cindy
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Member:
bthcks
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 6:00 pm:
Sally (alias Sara) - he hasnt said much besides "hurry with breakfast" today, but Sunday he was showing Kris the massage therapist that his right pectal muscle (right chest and upper inside of leg) hurt and needed massage. She commented that the right was a lot tighter and more painful than his left, which is the 'bad' leg, probably from bearing more than its share of weight over the chronic injury years. He kept bumping his nose against his right chest as she was working on the other three legs and I think was getting worried that she'd overlook it. Twinkle and Star had been sending "we want a massage too" messages since the first week, so they each got a quickie.
Thank you, Dove2 and Gail, for your input. It really makes a difference with our relationships (2 and 4 legged) when we listen and act. And for recognizing Balki for his change. I'm at a loss for any other explanation than the horse chose to do as you asked. He didnt think of it as a problem before you explained it. Amazing for a bunch of "dumb" (in both senses) animals.
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