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Discussion on Frank Bell Questions
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 7:44 pm:
Angie and I had some questions about the system recommended by Frank, and since there are so many savvy HA members we thought we would start a new post. I should note that I just read that awesome thread about all of the nh options out there (from last December). Reading it made me wonder if I should be pulling facets from other programs for my new ottb. He continues to be very endearing and I am seeing some cool clues that he is starting to think I am okay to know. 
I have a few questions about the seven steps.
1.)How long should a "session" be. I think I know what the answer will be, but I am holding off.
2.)When I am attempting to "bond", I seem to be bugging him more than settling or comforting him. I am not sure if it is a "teenager" thing (he is four), or a racehorse thing, or if it is me being just a pain in the a*# to him. He shows very clear signs much of the time that he is irritated (moving his head away, not standing still, etc.).
On a positive note, he has responded really well to give and take. I have been doing it more with halting and backing, because for some reason he has always been more than willing to DrOp his head to the ground, but has been completely DULL to halting and backing unless the chain was over his nose. Now, just A FEW DAYS after beginning the lessons, he is responding on the first sign of pressure 8 out of 10 times.
I am sure that I will have more questions as we move along, and I really appreciate any time you guys have to give with responses!
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 8:15 pm:
Gwen,
Did you purchase the book or Seven Steps DVD?
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 8:35 pm:
DVD
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 9:39 pm:
Gwen, i don't know anything about Frank Bell and his system.. I tend to use a little bit of a few NH that i have seen and done clinic's with..
Time = depends on the horse / you and what you are trying to accomplish.. I never put a horse away exhausted only refreshed.. Does that make sense?
bonding = you have to have the horses attention that is paramount, so two eyes on you is important.. he should be licking and chewing or giving you a big sigh when he is comfortable with what you are doing with him.. be brushing / petting / asking for back up / head down / disengaging hind end .. front end..
All this takes time and days..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 10:04 pm:
Thanks Ann. In terms of what I am trying to accomplish, that is why a system such as this is really good for me. I need structure, I need a plan. I am trying to think of it as a lesson plan that I would write for teaching, and I guess that is part of the question. How much is too much to ask of him in one session, one week, and so forth. I know each horse is different, and that I am (again) overanalyzing but I keep thinking of that fine line between making a positive impact and being a PEST! I was reading today about how they can only focus on one thing at a time, and this place is new to him so he is looking everywhere when we are working. He is the type that has to touch everything with his nose (knocked over a garbage can and round pen panel with his nose today) and is really curious. But don't these philosophies encourage the horse to focus on its handler in a "stressful" situation? See I have so many questions.
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Gwen,
I certainly am no expert either, but I'm happy to share the benefits of my experiences. When my horse was late 3/early 4 (last year), he was horrible! Inattentive, insistent, and trying to figure out where he stood with me and life in general. He, too, was a "teenager" so a lot of that went away when he turned five, but could be up to 7 years for some horses.
I consider three months an absolute minimum to begin to establish a true understanding of one another, but as a novice horse owner, it took me closer to a year to really understand my horse (and him to stop laughing at my ignorance!).
My horses also pull away sometimes when I bring their nose into their side. One tip I finally realized: instead of pulling the nose over and trying to hold it, just guide it and release immediately (but keep your hand there) when you feel the nose go in the direction you want. This will actually help you focus on making a timely release and seems to be less objectionable to the horse. Some days they seem more willing to work with me, and other days they're more distracted. I try to do at least a couple of repetitions, even when they're distracted, but don't force the issue. This is new to your horse, and he's not sure what's expected of him yet. Take your time and chip away at it.
Also, on the days when I don't have much time to tack up and ride, I consider it time well spent just haltering them up, bringing them outside the paddock, and working on rubbing, pressure & release, flexing, backing, and circling/turning exercises. It could be 10/15 minutes or half hour, but it pays huge dividends. Also, I then don't feel so guilty about not riding or handling my horses.
I, too, have tried to make a lesson plan, but found the demands of each day kept changing and I kept feeling like I didn't do what I wanted. Now, I keep the plan open and do what I can. My "overview" is to progress from groundwork, ballet on the ground to ballet under saddle. I noticed my horse was not really putting much weight into his hind end at the turn, so I've gone back to groundwork and am trying to get them to turn better on their haunches. This will translate to under saddle, but then I can also use the fence to help get their weight back at the turn.
Also, I agree whole heartedly with Ann: go as long as the horse is paying attention and not showing that he is overfaced. Sometimes that can be 10 minutes, sometimes much longer. I try to keep new things to a shorter time (new things are more stressful and confusing to the horse - so break them down to manageable chunks) and reviews (things the horse has learned and is confident about) can be longer. The main thing is to not fight with the horse. As a teacher, you know how to "guide" your student along. No cramming allowed.
There's also something I learned in golf that also applies to horses: There is no destination, so enjoy the journey!
P.S. That's great that your horse loves to explore everything. It means he's intelligent. It also makes him a lot of fun. Enjoy!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 8:19 am:
Gwen,
I had some back and forth with DT, and he's got good insight concerning FB's system so I know he'll post and help you out.
What I've found so far to work:
Don't just use the bonding when "training". I use it now every time I am near the horses. It's like "hi there, how you all doing today? Got any itchies that need rubbing?" Then I rub, talk silly, and let the horse tell me what's up. Every horse has a favorite spot but I also try to do all the rubbing all over the face, ears, nose etc. every time. It might be 30 seconds with one horse who isn't sociable that day, and 15 minutes on another who won't let me walk away!
If a horse isn't 100% comfy with the head rubbing stuff, when doing a training session, I just keep looking for other spots. My goofy guy who I bought the program for, Tango, loves being rubbed around his belly button! After I rub under his belly, then I go back to his face, ears, under his jaw etc. In short, don't get stuck on it has to be a certain way, in a certain order. You may have to always rub your horse say on the withers before you get enough relaxation to do his face and get to rubbing around his tail. Eventually it may work like what has happened with Tango: He comes up to me, and puts his head down and I rub his checks, over his eyes and all, then he sometimes moves off and presents his side so I can do his belly area! And this is a horse I have thought many times was hopeless!! I had even given up and decided I'd never train him.
And now he's licking, chewing and sighing while that monster Wal Mart bag goes all over him. I am not saying he's 100% with that, especially at any given time, but it shows me that the "bonding" made a big difference.
I think it's better to take something from all the programs til you find your style and what works with your horse. The biggest mistake I made was doing everything the Clinton Anderson way. WHY him? I saw more of him on TV, read his book, watched some of his tapes, and thought it was the answer. I was so gung ho about it, hey, it was new, fascinating...wow!
Do you ever, EVER, see him loving up a horse? Besides petting with the end of his handy dandy magical stick? That is what really got me thinking that Frank Bell had something I needed to grasp. And it was CA's methods, IMHO, that did more to terrorize my horse, than train my horse.
Of course I still need experience with timing, and reading a horse. And I do use some CA things; Cruising, one rein stop, etc.
You are right about the fine line. I laughed when I read that as I just asked Denny about the fine line between waiting for the slightest try and holding out vs shutting down completely when the horse is freaking out and going back to "the loving". I find that this knowing how to read the horse is the toughest part. Like with yours, is he being sassy, is he hungry, are you bugging him? Or what?
Kinda like dealing with a 3 year old, huh?
So, for what it's worth, there's my long winded reply. Hope it keeps working for you and your horse.
Angie
P.S., a horse has to be relaxed to focus on you. I think the basis of Bell's system is "you are safe with me my horse, come back to this spot"
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 9:09 am:
Gwen and all .....
I am an advocate of the Frank Bell system, and I can attest as to its value. I have worked with Frank, and studied his system, as well as many other NH trainers much like Ann. Frank will tell you, it is important to learn his system, and mold it into your own personality and style, and your horse's personality as well. The key to his system, which I think he has brilliantly simplified in what he calls the 3 C's. If you think about it, it makes so much sense, and will carry you through all your training goals in the future as well.
The system is designed to gain Control, which builds Confidence, which opens the door for Communication. I Try to think about it from both my point of view, and that of the horse. What I mean by that is, that you are gaining control over your horse while the horse is gaining control over his body and his mind. As I gain more and more control, I naturally become more and more Confident in my ability to do so. As your horse gains control, he also gains Confidence in himself (to do it) and in you (to lead him through it). Once we have gotten to that point, Communication is endless, both on the ground and in the saddle.
First, in the bonding and intimacy stages, try to understand some basics. Your horse may pull away from some areas because he doesn't know it feels good yet .. and he is defensive, especially the nose and ear areas. Don't try to force the issue, but don't avoid it either. When they pull away, go back to a good spot for a bit, then return. In the same manner, don't overdo the good spots ... leave your horse wanting more. While you are going through these stages, make note of good reactions as well as bad reactions .. this way you will always have something good to offer the horse when he becomes frustrated with the "bad" areas. In time, the bad areas will become less offensive to the horse.
The second point I would emphasize with this or any program, is not to get too focussed on a structured plan .. even though this is the "7 step system". While it is important to accomplish some things ahead of others to build a solid foundation, you have enough tools at your disposal to vary somewhat. For example, you don't want to do saddle work until groundwork is solid, but you can vary the groundwork exercises, within reason. Keep in mind however, you can't expect your horse to do what he has not learned yet. You will not be successful in sending exercises, if your horse does not understand pressure and release, but there are many ways to work on pressure and release first.
All of training is built around pressure and release or (take and give in the Bell system), but it is critical to understand that the horse learns from the release of pressure, and not the application of pressure. It is here that timing is critical. You will establish a feel for this. Initially, you want to always "reward the smallest try and the slightest change". As you and your horse learn to understand this, you will start to hold the pressure until you get a "better" try before you release. I think John Lyons refers to "baby gives" and "big gives". As your horse gets good at the "baby" gives, maintain pressure for the "big" give. Always give "immediate and full release" and reward with praise.
As for the length of session, it can be 2 minutes of bonding and intimacy, or an hour or 2 of varied work. I try to keep my sessions relatively short and productive. Never train by the clock, train by the horse's responses. If my horse gives me everything I want in 10 minutes, and he is calm and relaxed, it may be a good time to end the session even if I had an hour set aside. The most important thing is to end session on a good note ... always finish up with something that both you and your horse are good at and comfortable with. Your horse should always be calmer and more relaxed after the session than he was before.Your job is to lead the horse toward a specific goal, not force him through it. Be a leader and help your horse build confidence to work his way through each situation.
Sorry for the long post, but I think you may realize I am pretty passionate about this stuff. I can talk horses and training forever ..... I hope some of my blabber is useful.
DT
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 9:57 am:
Awesome, Dennis. Thanks.
Thanks to you too, Dove!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 10:07 am:
GREAT responses all of em..
Just remember every horse is a learning experience for us as well.. Not one is the same in reaction time or understanding.. but they all do learn..
enjoy the journey of horsemanship..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 12:04 pm:
I am so happy to hear that sighing is consistent with licking and chewing! I thought it was saying "oh no, not her again".
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 12:46 pm:
Angie, I missed your response earlier! Thank you too, for the advice. My gut is telling me that he is defensive because of his lack of exposure. I have found some spots that he likes. Interestingly, he likes his belly scratched. I thought that was funny because so many tbs are sensitive. I think a lot of his confusion lies with him never having worked on these things. From what I have read, tb trainers don't spend a lot of time working on ground manners and such. I have HUGE problems with second guessing myself. I have been riding for 25 years! and question myself all the time...
I do love the "Bell" system though!
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 7:59 pm:
Sorry guys, I am a bad student. I just want to check in and follow up with what I have been doing with "Billy". He is such a nudge!  Sessions entailing "bonding" and give and take (with turning the nose) really don't relax either of us. It is actually probably comical to watch because he is interested in EVERYTHING but ME! Like I mentioned before, what we have been responding to best is simply walking in straight lines, halting and backing. It is helpful because he was pretty pushy before and the whole timing thing has gotten much better for me. But I am not doing what was recommended! I know that there really isn't anything to say in terms of help. I guess I am just venting a bit.
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 8:20 pm:
Gwen,
Don't get discouraged. You are only at the beginning of your journey and Billy has not been with you very long. Relax. All will come, in good time.
Today, I played with a friend's new horse. I also tried the flexing by bringing the nose in. He just didn't get it at all. Nothing like that had ever been done to him. He kept backing up, he kept trying to pull his nose away, lift his head up, whatever he could think of. To help him understand what I was asking for, I put my other hand (the one not holding his nose) at the place on his neck behind his jowl where he could bend his neck, so that he would bend there. Then I brought his nose around again with a little pressure from my other hand at the bending place. Once he brought his head around even a little bit, I released his nose - but kept my hand close by to catch it for the next try. Showing this horse that he can actually bend his head there really seemed to help him get the idea. He was then able to bend all the way to the girth area within minutes because he could understand what I was asking for.
Like your Billy, this guy was interested in everything around him. He has only been at his new home for 3 days. He had been left out in a field with cows for the past two years, although I believe he was used beautifully before that for ranch and trail work.
Gwen, don't be afraid to experiment. You won't break or ruin him. (Ha - I was always afraid of this myself.) He just doesn't understand what you want, and apparently he has not had the need to focus his attention on anyone for awhile, so you'll need to convince him that when you're there, you're going to guide him along, and you won't go away until you get a tiny bit of what you're asking for.
Hope this helps.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:19 pm:
Dove2, great hints for Guen along with wonderful encouragement.
One thing that I found has helped to get my horses' attention on me is that I taught a "move" cue which is a smooch. When I give the smooch, the horses need to move something, anything, and what I am FIRST looking for is a movement of their ears toward me, and I want to see their eyes focused on me when I enter their space. When we ask for a "give" with the rein or lead rope, if the eyes are looking in the opposite direction of the direction we want the horse to give, then the horse is NOT giving in his mind. We want their minds to give to us first because then we know the horse is "with" us. The only cure for an unfocused horse is for us to NOT give up and keep asking for his attention to come to us . . . and then reward. I don't usually use food rewards, in fact, hardly ever. I'm not saying they aren't effective, but I want my horse to give and come to me because I ask, not because he is focused on food. The food reward will definitely speed up the "give," but then what happens the times I don't have food? I prefer to give a rub on the forehead accompanied by a soft "good boy!"
So, if you are teaching "give to pressure," wait until you see the ear and eye come toward you, too, and focus on you before you reward the give. It isn't a true give if the horse is not focused on you. The wnole point of teaching a horse to give to pressure is to help ensure safety for ourselves and our horses as much as possible. If the horses aren't "giving" in their minds, they are running away from us, and are more apt to engage in dangerous behavior.
Allow me to digress:
The subject of giving in body without giving in mind reminds me of the story of the father who turned to see his young son standing up in the pew next to him during the Sunday service. The father whispered, "Sit down!" The boy sat down, but two seconds later was standing up again. The father put his hand on the son's shoulder and pressured him down into the pew and whispered a bit more forcefully, "}Sit Down!"
The boy sat, but a few seconds later, the father looked to see him standing again! This time the father grabbed his son's shoulder, pushed him down into the pew and said in a louder whisper that caught the attention of the surrounding worshippers, "SIT DOWN!"
The little boy sat with a thump and crossed his arms and with a sullen look on his face and with his eyes straight ahead said in an angry whisper, "I may be sittin' down on the outside, but I'm standin' up on the INSIDE!" That little boy is obviously gonna be trouble for his dad as he gets older and stronger.
How could the dad have made his request more effective and attractive and educational to help his son WANT to obey?
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:27 pm:
Thanks for the encouragement. It really is helpful. He is getting better at turning his cute little nose... but he also turns his cute little but in the other direction, so we go in circles. (Stopping at everyone's stalls to sniff for some interesting activity.)
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:33 pm:
Holly, you were posting as I was! I love your story, and I think of these techniques often in my work. I am a special education teacher, and am faced with this struggle everyday. It is not terribly common for a child with learning difficulties to WANT to engage in school-related work. Therefore, I am constantly thinking of ways (usually on the spot) to get these buggers to want to be with me. Once again Gwen, apply what you ALREADY know to horses. Oh when will I catch on...
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 6:58 am:
Gwen,
Tango does the same thing. I put my other hand on him like Dove2 suggested, it seemed to help.
What I have trouble with is the little bitty touch to the girth area; he thinks that means move. It's frustrating to know how much to do anything with this horse. When I think I've got something figured out, he changes the rules. One day he'll stand, and just bend his head, next time, he's all ticklish and moves.
One thing I found is the intimacy helps to keep him from moving. He'd gotten the idea (from my miscommunication) that anytime I am near his rear, looking at it or touching, it meant go in a circle and keep facing me. With head in one hand, and tail area in the other, he's content to stand calm.
Holly,
Wonderful story!! I think Tango is always saying "I may looked stopped and content, but I am really going on the inside"...LOL!!! I hope within our lifetime, he gets over that, grin.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 8:36 am:
Ditto Dove2 and Holly ...
Horses are good at "faking" from time to time. You really do need to get the horse's attention on you in order to move forward in the training. So, we are back at "control" and "timing" of releases.
Holly's story is very insightful ... I am working with a 6yo AQHA gelding now who has become an expert at "I'll give you a little, but I ain't giving in." I spent 2 sessions to get a "small" give with the nose, and another 2 sessions before I got a "good" lateral flex. The first couple of sessions, he did not want to pay attention and focus on me. It is important that I do not release the pressure until I get a "little" attention from the horse. What I like to do is use a little verbal reprimand when the horse wants to ignore me .. Frank Bell uses the SSSHHHHHH sound which is good, but you can use your own AAHH AAHH or whatever, while you try to maintain the pressure. When the horse insists on moving, or pulling head away, or whatever is his avoidance method of choice, give your verbal reprimand to let the horse know this is not acceptable. When you get the slightest ear turn in your way, or nose in a fraction of an inch, immediately release and reward. Give your horse a few minutes to let it soak in .. then try again. You can't insist on getting it all at once, but you should insist on getting the horse to focus on you.
When the horse wants to move, I never try to hold him back or stop him, but I will stay with him until I get a pause in the movement, then release and reward, and allow soak in time again. I let the horse have an escape route, but I want him to learn that the easy way is to choose not to escape.
Do not ever forget that the horse can be as smart as we think we are. If he insists on not focusing on us, and we accept it, he is training us. If we ask for the horse to stand, and he keeps moving and we accept that, he is training us. We must stay with it until we get a little of what we want, then quit on that success, and ask for more the next session. If we get frustrated and quit when the horse is directing the lesson, we move 10 steps backwards. Some horses take minutes, some horses take days, but most can generally understand with good leadership.
DT
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 8:57 am:
Angie Darlin'
He can't change the rules unless he is making the rules, he can only choose to disregard them. The rest is up to you.
DT
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Good Point Dennis, I need to remember that I am making the rules. Guess that wasn't a good word to use, huh?
Your comments on giving the horse time to let things soak in is a reminder that I need. I look for a little give of some kind, but I am also thinking ahead too much instead of staying in the moment and then letting things be while I just hum or go la dee da, ho hum, and turn off for awhile.
Dang but this horse is teaching me a lot! Have to be patient, while staying quick on my feet, soft but firm in my handling, learning when to quit, when to press on...So far, so good, still around to tell about it!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Another thing my trainer has taught me is NEVER get mad at the horse.. yes, we get frustrated but we have to be the smarter one and not get angry and ugly.. keep plugging away at what we want.. Her other saying is '' THAT HORSE JUST STOLE YOUR REAL-ESTATE meaning that i moved for the horse he did not move for me.. That can be a tuff one to learn.. As a kid i always let the horse lead me, it was hard not to.. treating / giving shots etc. I would dance with the horse.. She has taught me that is not a choice of the horse and the horse is stealing my real-estate over and over..
Someone posted about times a horse is good about flexion other times he is ticklish.. Another word trainer has taught me DISCERNMENT.. the horse has to learn what is a que and what is not.. that i can pet anywhere on a body , but if i POINT that is a que..
Again this ALL takes tons of time..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 10:10 am:
Dennis I haven't posted on this thread but have been following it with avid interest. All the time and effort you put into your responses are greatly appreciated. I purchased Frank Bell's 7 step book and have started working with my TW gelding - now 10 and still not trained. Would give anything to be able to send him to you but will have to settle for doing this myself. It would help if he hadn't been beaten before he was rescued but he is starting to come around. Frank Bell's book has been a God-send. I would imagine there are numerous people following this thread as avidly as myself. Again - Thank You! ! !
Cheryl K
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 11:38 am:
I love that there are others to work through this with me. One thing Dennis, that I am grappling with is knowing when he NEEDS to move and when to tell him that he needs to stand. As you mentioned, sometimes you will allow them to move but then there are times (like when he is walking in circles around me) when I am like, "What would Dennis and Frank do right now?". I will be more alert to whether he is giving me his attention.
Holly, he is a treat hound, and I know I could get a much more responsive horse with them but like you said, what do we do when they aren't there????
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 12:10 pm:
Gwen .. When he is moving circles around you, just try to stay with him until he stops, then reward immediately. I know it is sometimes difficult, and easier for me because I'm tall. I put may arm over his hip and hang on to the opposite hip while keeping his nose in a bit with the rope and just keep moving with him until he stops. I don't try to stop the movement, I want it to be his idea and learn that stopping is the right response.
I am with Holly on the treats ... I hate being mugged by a treat monster.
Good luck and keep at it .. it will come.
DT
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
To help with the moving away or standing issue:
My body tells the horse when to move or not. The changes in my posture are so minute, yet horses are wired to detect the slightest movement changes are are much more expert than we are . . . that is their language -- BODY LANGUAGE -- and it really makes working with them so much easier if we can learn their signals with one another.
Example: In a run-in shelter, why do the submissive horses sometimes feel free to just move into the shelter and stand with the dominant horses, and other times keep their distance? They are communicating, even while eating hay . . . watch the wrinkled nostrils and tips of their ears and little shoves of their noses in the direction of the horses they are pushing away . . . it's all so subtle yet SO important for our own safety around them.
So, if I want my horse to move away from me, I move into him with purpose and give him a verbal cue to move . . . Now, "moving into" a horse's space can be something as easy as a finger pointing, as Ann shared. If I want him to stand as I go around him, I turn a bit sideways in my shoulders and walk along side rather than straight into him . . . And teaching a verbal cue for "move" is really helpful. When our minds are thinking "I want that horse to move away or move forward," we position our bodies to help make it happen and our movements toward the horse are more forceful and directive. When we are thinking, "I'm gonna brush his tail or pick up his foot," our bodies become more "friendly" in their postures, and as difficult it may be for us to see it, the horses can tell the difference the more they are around us and if we keep our methods the same. We have to be consistent, and if we are working with horses that have been handled in inconsistent ways by one or more handlers, then it is going to take them much longer to trust what we are saying to them.
My half-draft is a perfect example. He is 26 years old and came from a dude ranch in CO. Can you imagine all the different wranglers and kids and adults and idiots that have handled and ridden that horse in all of his years? He really doesn't know what to trust. Slowly, bit by bit (and he has been here just under a year) he is learning to trust. He is still wary and will often choose to move away before he moves toward me, but I can see the improvement in him from week to week . . . and one day, it will all culminate in a big "sigh," and he will really be
"Home" in his mind.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 4:38 pm:
Gwen, even tho I dont use Frank Bell's methods, they are somewhat similar to what I do and I'd like to chime in to your question..
the phrase "troubled minds move feet (and ears, lips and tails) is so very true... if i have a nervous horse and it cant stand still, then i allow it to keep moving - by disengaging the hindquarters - until the horse is ready to stand, then, depending on what stage of the relationship the horse is at, i'll either stand facing the horse, or next to the horse with my shoulders parallel to it until the horse processes what happened - usually at least double the length of time the horse was moving, but definately until i get some licking or chewing (or more!)...when the horse is moving i follow with my body facing the hindquarters of the horse,and the hand closest to the horse up and controlling the front end as necessary, until the horse gives me a sign that it is ready to stop...then i change my position to where my body is not faing the hindquarters...i actually never use a verbal cue, as the horse is so sensitive that it should never need a verbal cue, and in fact in nature verbal is one of the last "disciplinary responses" given to a horse...
i never actually tell a horse that he needs to stand.. if he needs to move his feet then i need him to do that, because if i dont let him move his feet when he needs to then i really only encourage the horse to just shut down and clam up.. i might get an obedient horse, but i certainly dont have a willing partner... when a horse is in sync with you, if you stand relaxed then the horse stands relaxed, and if you approach with strong body language, then the horse "stands up and takes notice" and gets ready to move, as Holly mentioned...your body positioning and language is very important here.. if you want to keep your horse sensitive and trusting then you have to be spot on every time and Holly's recommendations were excellent...
i also never use treats, as i was taught that it lowers you in the horse's eye, taking away my right to be a leader...
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 6:27 pm:
Thanks Melissa. I will keep all of that in mind. This whole new realm is a tough transition for me. I almost think it is harder for someone who is a "seasoned" horse person to take up a new style such as this, than someone just starting out. I am also feeling VERY self-conscious at the barn doing these (perceived) "tricks".
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amara
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 7:28 pm:
Gwen, I think you are spot on in your personal feelings.... when i first "changed" styles, I was lucky because it was actually my boss who got started in it (i was managing a classical dressage facility in new england)... we supported each other, and the one or two other people who got involved... but most of our boarders were totally against it, and we lost several, because they didnt believe that what we were doing was right...most of those that stuck it out actually ended up getting involved in it after they saw the difference in our horses!...
once i got comfortable in training horses the "new way" and understood the philosophy behind it i started to change the way i taught my students, and yes, it was much easier to teach the newbies than it was to teach the "old hands"... there arent many preconceived notions in the new people...
the other hard thing about retraining ourselves or other people is that it involves a different way of thinking, and also requires us to understand that some of what we have done with our horses in the past was actually bad for them, and that we have in many ways contributed to the problems they have today...that's a REAL hard lesson...
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 8:11 am:
Oh, too bad you are not in New England anymore!
Fortunately, I am VERY aware of my screwups with other horses. I have always beaten myself up about it, and now I have a plan to do better!
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ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 9:19 am:
Gwen,
Your comment about "my screwups" brought a question to mind: (I worry about mine too, lol!)
Do horses recover from early training mistakes?
I've read a few times that doing something right the first time, sets the foundation for future training, but if we make mistakes they can never be completely undone, or the horse will never be as good as was possible without our human error,...more or less. Think it was a translated Dressage book I read that in.
I can see it setting things back, as happened with Tango and him being more scared instead of being more secure, but geesh, does that mean he's hopeless? I'd think NOT!
Denny? Anyone?
Ann,
Loved your post. Having lots of trouble with that with this guy. I really got to thinking after your post and Hollys. These animals are sooo sensitive to our body language and our weight/breathing...everything. It's amazing how they are like a barometer of our emotions too.
What got me angry thinking about this, is someone new to NH, and whatever they perceive to be "natural horsemanship" is the confusion of having "2 eyes" on you. As someone said on another thread, there's nothing worse than a horse that keeps trying to face you. I wish these clinicians would really, really stress more that it's the LITTLEST thing we do that the horses pick up on, not the major "move your butt over or I"ll bite it like a mountain lion" thinking.
O.K., done with my little hissy fit.
Later everyone!
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dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 10:48 am:
Angie,
I recently read something from a respectful source (although I forget who!) that when a horse has a traumatic experience the first time he's experiencing something, then that memory and potential for trauma with it will remain with the horse. Take, for example, the first time a horse is trailered and has a bad experience, that horse will always have the memory of it. Even though the horse can still be trained to overcome the fear, it can always surface. If a horse has trailered lots of times, and then has an accident, the horse can easily overcome that trauma because it previously had no issues with trailering. (Actually, I think this may be on Frank Bell's website.)
Using that as a basis, then I think we can apply the situation to us humans in training. We have to screw up pretty badly (trauma level) to leave a bad, lasting impression.
I have a mare who appears to have been flipped as a filly. She probably reared up and the yahoo cowboy decided to teach her a lesson. She requires sensitive and compassionate handling and is now acting much differently than she did two years ago when I first got her. But I believe it will always be with her, and I'll need to be very sensitive to what might trigger her memory of it.
I believe the level of training errors you are speaking or thinking of, are in a very different category. These creatures (horses) are so forgiving and understanding that I believe they will not hold a human error in training against us. However, we need to be mindful of applying the proper training technique to the sensitivity of the horse. That's why I no longer follow Clinton Anderson like I used to. His "dominant" technique is excellent for a certain type of horse or at certain times, but not all the time for all types of horse personalities. That's why I believe Frank Bell's techniques are much more universal. There is no potential for overwhelming or harming the horse, regardless of personality.
If Tango was getting more scared, then the recognition of this is the first step to correcting it. Scared animals/humans don't learn/perform well. If you try another tactic more suitable to his personality, you will no doubt reach him and bring him to his full potential. That translated Dressage book sounds a bit antiquated. Folks used to think horses were pretty dumb, but I think we now know better.
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dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 10:53 am:
Angie .. working with rescue horses, I can assure you that your horse can recover from human "screwups". You have done nothing to your horse even remotely close to what these horses have endured from their human counterpart .. and they are learning and coming around.
I almost think we need to throw "time" and "schedule" out the door, and work solely on reactions and responsiveness .. both with our horses, and with ourselves. If you are able to establish that "bond" with your horse, who really gives a crap whether it took 2 weeks, or 6 months. The relationship is the reward. Of course I realize that if you are paying a trainer, time is a relative factor, but for this discussion, we are pretty much talking about self training.
I agree with all above and my goal is to work in unison with the horse. I want them to be soft and supple, and feel my moves and respond to my slightest cue. To accomplish this, I must also be keenly aware of my horse's moves and subtle gestures, and understand that the horse is also communicating with me.
I remember hearing a long time ago, that the best trainer in the world is the "fly". He weighs less than an ounce, but can get a horse to move over, shiver his skin, move his tail and his feet, and etc. Believe me, your horse can feel everything you do. This has always stuck with me. I want to be like that fly .. my slightest move or change in body language is communicating to the horse to do something, or not to do something .. whether on the ground or in the saddle.
DT
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ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 3:05 pm:
Thanks Dove and "Fly Taylor", hahaha!
I don't think I personally did anything that really "ruined" Tango. And he's not getting more scared, knock on wood. I agree that Clinton Anderson is more for for certain kinds of pushy horses; and it didn't work with him. What I don't know and my reason for asking, is if this horse had something happen his first year of life; like the filly who flipped over, (it's movement above him, switching "eyes", that is his undoing) can it be undone? And you both did an excellent job of spelling it out to me and I feel better knowing that there is hope. And actually I do keep seeing improvement little by little and as long as I forget about a schedule, it'll be o.k....I hope!
DT, I tell my daughter and hubby about the horses feeling a fly all the time when they ride, it's a wonderful little tidbit of knowledge to keep in mind. Anyone who doubts that horses don't feel those flies, try trimming a horse's hooves when there is one little bitty fly immune to the fly spray you doused your horse with!
Got a new supply of Wal Mart bags today after shopping, so off to do more bonding, intimacy, and desensitizing! LOL!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 7:54 pm:
I was taught that any time a horse has a reaction that causes a very high flight or fight response, then you are creating the type of "templated" reaction that becomes a type of instinct with a horse...you see these templated reactions when you see a very large response from a horse that doesnt seem to fit with what is going on around him...these are a bit more difficult to get rid of then typical coping mechanism reactions, but not at all impossible.. they just require patience...
one of the reasons i stopped training professionally is because i was tired of the timeline and realized that it takes as long as it takes to get the horse "with you" and where it needs to be...as Dennis said, you cant train on a schedule...
As far as the sensitivity, I was taught that in every interaction with a horse you can do 3 things, and they must always be in this order if you want the hosre to remain sensitive...
first is intention-your body language, posture and your positioning are what the horse is naturally designed to read...every time you ask a horse to do something you start with intention... if that doesnt get the desired response from the horse you ask again with non touch- this is when you use your hand or a rope to back up your intention...you can also move towards the horse - with more or less energy depending on what the horse is showing you.. you dont touch the horse...
if this doesnt work then you can go to touch... i was taught that doing this in any other order would be like grabbing someone and physically forcing them to do something, without ever actually asking the person to do it first... it causes resentment, which causes the horse to dull to pressure- your intention.. suddenly your fly needs to be a cement block....
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 9:58 pm:
So does it count for "intimacy" when my new horse nuzzles me as I am picking his HIND FEET????? heehee I thought the Frank Bell students would get a kick out of that. This horse is such a character-just simply "can't" turn his nose when I am asking (so politely too), but can contort his little monkey body to chat with me while I am at the OTHER end of his body.
Melissa, the progression you speak of is so similar to the "v" technique that Frank Bell discusses!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 9:10 am:
Melissa,
That's very fascinating..."creating a templated reaction". So a horse that had something really scare him early in life, add to that more scary experiences, now you've got a horse that is hyper sensitive to everything around him. Which describes Tango because from the time I brought him home he was hyper sensitive. I've started maybe a dozen horses, including some Arabs, and a Saddlebred and still have an Arab who is Miss Sensitive and I know there is a big difference here with their more fine tuned reactions and how Tango reacts. Your description explains why it's like starting over day after day with him; he needs such tiny steps to get past the "new instinct" that he learned.
I really needed to know that. It explains so much, and will keep me going here when I get discouraged.
Ann,
I don't get mad, but I have wanted to sit down and bawl my eyes out few times! Tears of pure frustration.
Cheryl,
Your post gave me a laugh. You have a 10 year old needing Frank's system put into practice. I was feeling bad that Tango is 5 and I still can't get on him and just ride off into the sunset, lol! Oh, I can get on him, but might want to update my life insurance first!
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dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 9:43 am:
Very interesting Melissa ..
What are your suggestions for resolving these "templated" reactions. I find that eventually my methods work, but as you said, the time may be extensive. I am working with a horse right now that fits this mold perfectly. He reacts pretty much the same when he sees his shadow as he would if a bomb exploded in his paddock.
He is improving daily, but has a long way to go.
DT
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cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 9:45 am:
Angie - it sorta makes me laugh too - only it would be so great to be able to ride him - I didn't rescue him until he was almost 5 - it took a good two years to convince him I wasn't going to beat him to death if he let me touch him - He trusts men much more than women because the idiot who abused him was a female. He is super soft - but his head is ALWAYS high. It takes just placing my hand on his poll to get him to lower his head - but then it pops right back up. Robber has never bucked - but the last time I got on him - I bent down to get my stirrup - it scared him - he spun and I ended up with two cracked ribs - a beautiful black eye and pulled groin muscles. It's all my fault because I didn't do the ground work - which is why Frank Bell's book is so great - it's exactly what I needed.
Cheryl
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 10:52 am:
I have worked with all kinds of horses, young and old, all breeds and sizes, "trained" and untrained, over the past years of horse involvement. I have learned along the way . . . and am still learning. The Moxie horse I have now beats them all in gooseyness and distrust. He also has a stubborn streak and deliberately makes the decision to not be caught. It's as if he thumbs his nose at me and will only give in when he is a slathery mess of tired flesh. I "broke" him as a four year old for an elderly farmer in VT and bought him six months later and have had him now for 4 years. The gooseyness has always been there along with reacting in true fear of the unexpected from humans, but he's a total bully with other horses and acts like the most spoiled snot in the horseworld in deciding when or how he will be caught. I have mentioned before that I have spent weeks, days, and many hours catching this horse. I always got him, but not in the way I wanted to get him. Did I walk all over the pasture to catch him? Yes . . . miles and miles and miles for hours and hours and hours . . . Did I ever hurt him? No. Did I feed him and brush him and trim his feet and talk sweet to him? Yes. I have ridden him over bridges, through water, in the woods, along the roads, past equipment, with other horses as well as alone, trucked him from VT to CO to CA to KS . . . and finally, after all this time . . . finally, this spring, (actually it was right after Mark died) it's as if something clicked in his brain and he decided to be a normal horse. I still don't trust to turn him out with the other horses in a small area because I think his "bully potential" is still there, but he has softened in his eyes and will actually give me two eyes now and put his nose into the halter . . . and come to me in the pasture and I can't tell you what happened differently. He just took a longer time . . . didn't follow any of the training rules. So, the key is to not give up. Be consistent. Be kind. When we feel our patience giving out, we need to stop and take a refreshment break or a nap . . . and keep our focus the same every time . . . and just maintain love and respect for them . . . and some horses just take longer. Now, Den, that's maybe not what a professional trainer wants to hear when he knows the clients are hoping to have a safe, rideable horse within a month or two, but that's why I totally believe in training the horse owner/handler more than training the horse, and sometimes the greatest favor we can do the horse and the owner is to say, "This horse is going to need more time and expertise than you may be able to give, and I advise you selling the horse and getting one that is more suitable to your level of experience." (and then, of course, the question comes up, "Who shoule buy this horse if he's such a hard case?" and you end up with more and more horses in your barn than you have time for. ) It comes down to the level of commitment of the owner, and we all have different responsibilities and circumstances that determine our ability to commit to an animal.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 11:50 am:
Holly,
The only thing bad about selling a horse like that is I worry to much about what will happen to him with his next owner. Horses like that hurt someone, get passed around and end up worse off IMO. Of course it could me that gets hurt too, but at this point I feel I have so much time in him already, and know him. I can't imagine the fear Tango would go through starting over with someone else. I guess as long as I can still afford to feed him, he'll be here.
And having met Moxie, I think he's a sweetie compared to Tango...ya know I love that little horse of yours.
Cheryl,
Ouch! So how is your fear factor at this moment? I can see Tango doing the same thing, every time I've been on him, which is like 4-5 times before I wised up and figured it out that he wasn't safe to be on, movement above him or out to the side, scared the bejesus outa him, and me. An accident waiting to happen. I am very, very lucky I haven't been hurt. I am so glad that Denny introduced us to Bell, and for this horse it is making the differece.
Don't know if it's old age or what, but my days of thinking once I am on the horse, let 'em do whatever they want, I am fine. NO WAY do I think like that anymore. I want to the horse half dead with boredom before I climb in the saddle, and snoring the while I get myself adjusted to start the ride! And the ride had better be very calm and quiet until I say different!
Denny,
What kind & age of horse is this? What would Frank do? I know for fear of plastic , he suggests tying bags all over and letting them flap in the wind....so maybe little noises going constantly?? hmmmmmm..........Of course that would overwhelm him, like with Tango?
When we all get this figured out, we'll be sooo smart, haha!
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 12:14 pm:
Oh, Ang,
I didn't mean for YOU to sell Tango. I was talking from a trainer's point of view when we are training a horse for someone else who may not have the desire to put in the kind of time and commitment it takes to work with the hard cases. For those horse owners, it is safest for them and better for the horses if someone who has the commitment and desire to learn to own and train the horse. You obviously have that kind of commitment to Tango, and I'm confident that you will get to the point with him at which you both feel relieved and safe and can have fun together.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 1:00 pm:
...I will add, Angie, that I admire your committment to a difficult horse and your concern for him not to end up in the wrong hands.
Please be safe.
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 3:59 pm:
I appreciate your thoughts on not rushing a horse. I am taking my time with Anuhea building on her foundation and it has proved invaluable.
Mark Rashid on colt starting clinics, "He just isn't going to be doing the saddling process during a clinic anymore. Mark has found that even when people say they have no expectation when they bring their colt in for saddling for the first time, they often do and because of that, it puts undue stress on the horse and the owner. And Mark doesn't feel that is a good way to start a colt."
Leilani
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 4:32 pm:
Good for Mark! I am not sure how it's training when the point with some of the clinics is to get the horse so exhausted he don't care what a person does on his back. Like wave a chain saw around or leaf blower, etc. I almost want to see one of these guys fall off when they do that trick, the horse going HAHAHAHAHA, fooled ya!
Thanks Fran. Having some dizziness the last few days, (a problem for about 15 years) so not doing much training, thus all the babble from me here! Dang, but so much of the training involves circles...never was my strong point, this going 'round and 'round and 'round...
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2007 - 9:34 pm:
the templated reactions and the overreactions are definately the hardest things to deal with... in the end, it just takes time, but i was taught that there are ways to cut thru some of the time...i dont know how well i can explain it tho... the guy who taught me never wanted any of this down in writing (at least, not while he was teaching-he doesnt teach anymore) the reason being he always believed you cant learn from a book or video because each horse is so uniquely different and you have to travel a different path with each horse.. eventually all the horses do all the same thing, but there are so many roads to get there, and so many levels to take, and if we screw up, with some of the horses we just make things worse... especially the overreactive ones...
but basically it comes down to this... with some overreactive or badly templated horses, you need to go back to that heightened response- in a very quick fashion- and then get that very quick let down, and make sure you are in the ideal position to shape a new template...its kind of like this... if a horse gets scared of the human and gets really excited/nervous and runs away and gets far away from the human, and then, while still very far away from the human, the horse is allowed to let down and get back to a normal resting rate, then the horse learns a templated reaction that he can relax when he is away from the human... so then we have to go back and set up a structured quick reaction and quick let down and make sure that we are in a position for the horse to see that being near us is where the relaxation happens (this is why its so vitally important to spend lots and lots of time just chilling with the horse after every interaction)...this needs to be done many times over many days before things start to come together... from there then i find it easier to build the trust relationship, because we have taught the horse that being with the human is where he gets to relax...if the horse comes up to you, faces you, and then licks, chews and yawns, then the horse is really saying "i feel i can relax around you"... if he does this after you put some pressure on him, that's good.. if he does this the moment he sees you come into his pasture and he starts walking towards you, then you know you've gotten somewhere... after that, the overreactions to little things start to go away, because the horse looks to you and says "i can relax around you and not worry about the big scary monster"...of course, there are lots of little steps in between that bring the horse to this point...
i know i've mentioned this before.. my little arab took me 5 hours to get near him on the first day i worked with him... i didnt even try to touch him, and my pony actually helped me (of his own accord)...a few days later i got to where i could get up to him and very quietly halter him, and then i put him in the round pen and worked on his templated responses.... by the 3rd day (2 sessions per day), he was coming up to me in the pasture and waiting patiently while i haltered him... all in all the whole process took about a week... i never once brushed him, or handfed him.. it was just straightforward business for the whole first week....he'll walk away from grain or grass up to his eyeballs to come to me now...
before i ride a horse i'm working with i make sure i get the same reactions from the horse from all his planes and quarters....the horse must be equally light (but not oversensitive), in the front and rear quarter, and left and right plane, as well as upper and lower plane...i treat each quarter/plane as its own separate horse and handle it appropriately... i might do one thing on one side, and then do something very different on the other side until the two sides equal out.. it all depends on what the horse shows me... but until i have all the planes and quarters equally and correctly reactive, then i dont think its ready to ride...
angie, for a horse that's really overreactive to the plastic flapping sound i use a modified version of the templated reactions desribed above... but i do it in a halter with the horse correctly disengaging and moving around me.. he cant be crowding into my space or crossing his hind legs incorrectly... correct disengagement leads to a relaxed spine which is the only time a horse can truly learn... a stiff spine leads to coping mechanisms, which tend to break down at the most inopportune moments.. i bring the horse up, then bring the horse down...do it right and the horse learns that the flapping is a good thing!.. i dont like the oversensitizing because too many horses just freeze up... they're terrified on the inside but scared to move on the outside... at some point, they blow...
one of the added bonuses i found with all this is that if i have a horse that is overreactive and difficult to keep weight on, when i work with him and get him to where he feels good about the human and can really let down around me, then he has a much easier time keeping weight on... kind of like the metabolism is is as overreactive as the horse, and when i slow down the overreactiveness i slow down the metabolism...
it can be so complicated but each horse shows something different that it always stays fresh and exciting, and to see the changes in the eye or the height of his head or the way he stands makes it all good, all the time...and then makes it impossible to sell because your afraid for the horse.... hence the other reason i dont do this professionally anymore!!!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 10:37 am:
Melissa,
Wow, I think my brain is over reacting after trying to get a handle on all that. I don't think I've ever read anything like this before; why hasn't someone wrote this down? If they did, I missed it. We should have a new thread just on "templated reactions" to go into more of it, I think this will bring up a lot of questions from our inquiring minds.
BTW, I had to print your post out, worth referring to over and over.
O.k., so I buy an over reactive yearling, who wasn't handled yet and had some fear from something to begin with, and we make some progress. Then one day(couple of years later) he escapes during training (don't ask me how a big horse like him managed to squeeze thru between the corner of the barn and a post...should have hit his head on the roof edge, and gouged his sides, but didn't get hurt)so I think that was the point where things went from bad to really, really, bad. Running in the pasture, 2-30' ropes flopping.
So trying to train doing the usual methods, hasn't worked too well, hence the reason I always think we are still at square one...or maybe negative 2 some days!
I love what you explained about the stiff spine when working with plastic bags. I've seen the explosion happen when I thought he was cool with everything. Now I know if he's still got one eye and one ear looking worried...it's a unique look, hard to describe, that is when I should be holding onto his halter yet, or close to it, and disengaging his hindquarters, correct? And remembering to back down, get the relaxation, and then start again.
And I should not be in a hurry to have him moving with the bag all around him. I mean moving from a distance. I was trying to have him walk a circle with the bag on the end of a lunge whip, dangling and fluttering around him from all sides...hmmm..nope, not good at this point. Sounds like I need to back off yet.
The terrified on the inside...ah huh. That's how he felt every time I was on him. And I could feel the explosion coming, and it scared me because I knew it was going to be a challenge to get off safely at that point. And even during the rides where he was appearing to walk calmly, it still was there, that feeling that the slightest little thing would cause the blow up. Like if I dared to sneeze, or snap my gum.
Love the part about planes and quarters too. Again, amazing that with a horse like this you think you've got things going good, and a touch someplace gets a big jump out of him. Doing all areas but instead of keeping it the same, mixing it up sounds good.
Now to apply all this knowledge.
I want this horse to THINK, instead of REACT. Of course, I think I am thinking enough for both of us right now, lol! (major brain cramp here..phew)
I understand about selling a horse like this. Hubby asked me last night if I was going to sell Tango, or give him to that guy in IN. (he's still hoping to pawn him off to you Denny, lol!) I went into a long explanation of our discussion on here, his eyes glazed over, and I think all he got out of it is the horse isn't going anywheres!
This would be a great thing to ask someone like Frank Bell about and his take on it. He may do it, but like the guy you got it from, can't put it into words. It can't be done during a clinic that's for sure.
Thanks for such a thoughtful and thought provoking post. And if you ever want to come visit the U.P., and meet Tango, give me a call!!! ;-)
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 7:15 pm:
angie, i hope you never sell tango!(except maybe to me!)(*LOL*)...the highly sensitive horses are the best, and the rewarding feeling when you've taken one that has so much trouble and get that absolute trust is amazing...its like the love of a young child because its so pure..(ok, i actually dont know that cuz all my kids have 4 legs, but that's what i've heard from 2 legged mums!)
i certainly dont know if this "templated reactions" stuff is some kind of gospel, but i know that it helps me to understand why my horses do things, and then gives me ways to get past it.. but i'm sure there are lots of ways of describing it that other NH guys have, it just has different words...dunno...a few of my friends and i have been working on trying to get it written for real, but the danger in all this is that an inexperienced person may not recognize the innermost reasons that drive a horse to act the way it does and use the wrong method for an action that has several different causes and really make a mess of the horse....like i said eventually all roads lead to rome but there are lots of ways to get there, even within this particular branch of NH that i do...
when i mentioined doing different things for the different planes and quarters its not about mixing it up for variety but because that horse may be ready for one thing on say the left side, but not ready for it on the right side... like a horse that is more accepting on its left but less accepting and overreactive on its right...i'll do different things on each side to get the horse to where it needs to be..eventually he should be at the same acceptance in all planes and quarters... (case in point, my little pony was fairly good about following my intention inregards to my moving his hind end, but as dead as a 2ton boulder when it came to the front end...he was also very heavy and bracey on the left side, but fairly light on the right.. he also tended to a higher reaction when it came to anything like the flag or tarp on his right side, but fairly accepting on his left...in fact a little dull on his left, so i had to wake up the left side and settle down the right side... i was taught that for each horse we actually have 6, because each plane and quarter can be like its own horse in its reaction...)
as far as the disengagement, dont lose sight of the importance of the front end when disengaging the back end...i rarely hold the halter when disengaging unless i need to reset a templated reaction that involves his head...if the horse is not utilizing its front end correctly when disengaging the hindquarters then the benefits of the disengagement are much less...
sorry, i keep rambling on.. i love talking shop!
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 10:02 am:
Angie - there is some of the fear factor there - I'll be 64 next month - don't heal as fast as I use to - and I'm sure it hurts more now when I hit the ground than it use to
I was remiss in my first post by just thanking Dennis. I went back and read the entire thread -the number of people contributing really helpful information is huge.
My problem is I've never done ground work with horses - was never told I was suppose to - Somehow I've managed to luck out with some really great horses without giving them the benefit of groundwork - Robberman just doesn't fit in that category. What I've been able to do with him is paying big rewards - he goes through all the head yielding - moving away from pressure - with just squeezing the lead rope - with him at liberty I can throw a tarp over him - under him - whatever - he can leave at any time but doesn't. I'm getting ready to start with the dancing exercises - just hope I'm able to do them right.
Cheryl
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 15, 2007 - 12:34 pm:
Cheryl,
You're doing good. And an inspiration to me...I've got birthday coming up next week, was really bumming, my body isn't cooperating with what my mind wants to do, then you are brave enough to post your age! I can only hope I am still active with horses in my 60s!
I think anyone who takes the time to study these gentle training methods that have the horses best interest in mind, is doing great. You'll do things right, don't worry.
Melissa,
Thanks for more of your ramblins. Very interesting and I will keep referring to this whole thread as we continue on our journey to get Tango through this.
Everyone keeps giving me hope when I've given up!
Dennis,
Thanks for bringing Frank Bell's methods to our attention, and you contributions also.
How are things going with the new guy that is so afraid? Have you heard of "templated reactions?"
Stay safe everyone.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Sep 17, 2007 - 7:24 am:
Angie .. thanks for asking. Steady improvement but no major breakthroughs as yet. If I understand the concept of "templated reactions", I think it is the same as what I have always referred to as "hyper sensitive" horses. The kind of horse who would have the same "explosive" reaction to an ink pen clicking as it would a helocopter hovering overhead. The level of stimuli is obviously not nearly equal, but the horse doesn't differentiate between the two.
If this is not the concept, I am sorry Melissa, but maybe you can correct me and expand on this topic. I would really like to know, and if you don't mind, I would adopt your term and consider it to be more of my learning.
DT
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Monday, Sep 17, 2007 - 12:41 pm:
Dennis, this is hardly my term.. i was taught this many years ago.. but you know, a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet!...
but what i mean by templated reaction is i think a bit different than what you are describing as hyper sensitive....
hyper sensitive-what i call over reactive - is the horse that you describe as having that same explosive reaction to the click of an ink pen as a helicopter hovering overhead... love the analogy btw and i'm sure i'll use it myself if you dont mind!!!
templated reactions is a specific reaction to a specific interaction... it can happen with an overreactive, or an underreactive horse... i used to train this awesome jumper who was generally good on trails, unless he saw a big rock on his left side... and then he would explode... didnt bother him on his right, but big problem on his left... this is before i learned any of this stuff, so i got him to basically cope with the rock on his left by not running away, but he never did lose his fear... he just flipped out in place...but he never got over the templated reaction (of flipping out) every time he saw a big rock on his left side..
another case in point of a more successful nature is my little arab.. everytime he saw a human he'd run as far away as he could.. EVERY SINGLE TIME!.. didnt matter if you were going anywhere near him.. if you were just passing by the paddock he would flip out.. if he couldnt get away then he'd stand and shake (among other things)...it was a templated response to the sight of a human.. he didnt have a problem with horses or dogs or cats or birds.. just humans...but when i got him i knew how to work on this stuff so was able to erase that template.. under reactive horses can have templated reactions too...
i bring down the reactions of an over reactive horse by working on trust and pressure tolerance issues...but that's a whole nuther ball game!...
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 17, 2007 - 12:51 pm:
Denny,
I think you could be a writer too! Like the pen vs 'copter comparision. I've had Arabs like that, but I think there is a difference here between hyper sensitive and something deeper. I think a hyper sensitive horse can be trained(in fact I know they can be) but these others, it's like it's something else all together. I am thinking like a memory retention problem too. I mean, we did this YESTERDAY, you blanking #&%#*! idiot horse! And the day before, and before that, and last week, last month....O.k., I try not to react that way, because I do truely see fear in his eyes.
I am seeing progress but like you said, no major break throughs. I am doing some more "regular" type ground work, then back to the monster plastic bag stuff.
At any rate, Melissa is on to something.
And I always have a plastic bag in my back pocket now, I have become obsessed with these bags and determined not one of my horses will be the teeny bit upset with anything like them!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 17, 2007 - 1:05 pm:
Melissa,
We were typing at the same time. What you said about the standing and shaking; Tango does that sometimes when I am trying to desensitize him with the plastic bag, and/or things above him. He stands because he knows he HAS to, he's trying SO very hard to please me, but he's terrified. So back to FB bonding/loving to bring him down as you said earlier.
And this horse, is fine with many other things that would upset a horse new on the trails. All the times I've ground driven him, or walked him out and about, he's been really good. Even my dog coming out of a culvert, which scared me, hardly fazed him.
Yesterday I was jumping on him from a hay bale, from the right side. I wasn't trying to get on all the way, just lay over him. He was fine with my flapping my arms, patting him all over, etc. But, did the same from the left, and he freaked out with my hands moving on the right side. There again, that movement got him.
So, more of the puzzle here to think about.
Thanks for pointing out that a horse can have a templated reaction even if the horse is quiet otherwise. We had a wonderful Arab mare that was about as perfect as a horse can be. Her fear? If she saw a shadow while tied...we think she'd see the shadow of the lead rope on the ground as it only happened outside on sunny days! She would absolutely flip out; tremble with fear, snort, the whole nine yards.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2007 - 9:01 am:
Thanks Melissa ...
I have a beautiful AQHA mare that I am working with at the horse rescue. She is in a 12 X 24 paddock area and still has a rope tied around her foot .. I'm guessing from some of the previous owners "training techniques". I am thinking the end of that rope was either tied to a post, or to her head.
At any rate, I have been trying to catch her and settle her so I can get that damn rope off her foot, and the memories that go with it I'm sure. Her response is that any time a human gets into the paddock with her, she runs to the opposite side and DrOps her head to the ground in the corner and will not let you approach. If you approach, she will turn rear to you and if you continue, she will run to the opposite side and put her head to the ground in the corner. Would you consider this to be a templated reaction, and what would you recommend to resolve.
I spent a lot of time "pole gentling" until I could get my hand on her hip to stroke and scratch .. but head still lowered in the corner. The next day, I was able to finally approach, again from the rear and then one of my helpers and I were able to rub and scratch on both sides at the same time from rear up to about the withers. Any move forward of the withers, and she is headed to the corner again.
This past weekend, my helper spent about 6 hours total just sitting in her paddock with her. She finally approached her and put her nose in her face, which thrilled the girl to death. That is the first time she would even look at anyone. Hopefully next trip we can get the rope off and move forward.
DT
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2007 - 10:22 am:
Den, sounds so much like the little gelding I have. I spent hours sitting in the paddock or pasture with him. Hours walking after him. Hours in the round pen, . . . He would give both eyes SOMETIME if I were at a safe distance, but if I took a step toward his shoulder, he'd sit, pivot and be off. Never turned toward me; always away from me. Only would let me catch him when he was exhausted and facing the fence or corner and would never give me more than one eye when I went up to him. Once caught, he was sweet, although goosey. I never hurt him, always rewarded him, yet each time to catch him was a marathon no matter what the situation. He is great on trail. Rarely spooks and has great courage and curiosity about things we encounter . . . but if we encounter people, his first instinct is to go backwards if they approach him.
You will not have the same time issues as I had because there were months when I was unable to work with him due to distance, but he also spent 15 months at the ranch in CA and was only ever in a stall, paddock, or if I was brave, the 302 foot arena . . . and the only way I could get him in the arena was to empty it of other horses first, or he would just hide behind them and run circles.
Finally . . . this spring, he will turn and face with both eyes. If I bridge a rope up in front of him, he will DrOp his head and let me lay it over his poll to lead him. If I approach with the halter, he is the first one in the pasture to trot to the gate and push his nose into the halter as I hold the crown piece. What changed? Don't know. He just finally decided to trust . . . and it is really neat because he is such a good little horse in so many ways. The sensitive ones are the most exasperating when they have been hurt, but the best for training once the trust is earned.
You folks will succeed and the mare will trust . . . it will have to be on her timeline, though, and when the time is right, it will click with her.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2007 - 12:40 pm:
Ah, the poor thing. She must be terrified that someone is going to tie her head back to her foot. Maybe she was left tied for an extended period in that position.
I am thinking the best approach for getting the rope off is no approach. Meaning completely ignore it as long as possible. I bet you know that already, huh? How long is the rope? If it's really a safety issue, I suppose you could take drastic measures; drive her in stocks, and tranq her, huh?
Sounds like the helper has the best chance being successful she is apparently there daily?
Tango update: A gal from TX has been showing interest in buying him and we've emailed off and on for a few months. She said the Freisian/Morgan breeds are known to look so big and calm, but the brain don't catch up with the body. She knows one who is 8, with a 2 years old mentality...or something along those lines. So, looks like if I keep Tango til he's like 15....or until I start getting Social Security checks. Which ever comes first!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2007 - 7:37 pm:
Gosh Dennis, you sure got some horses in rough shape..good for you.. glad they have you...
i was taught you cant reset a templated reaction without bringing the horse to a heightened state where the horse stops using the cortex and gets into teh subcortex/limbic system part of his brain... you're lucky with her cause she's in a small enough area that you can set up sympathetic/parasympathetic responses and wait for the release while you're just a little bit closer...spike a good enough sympathetic nervous system response so that you can get some good yawning and chewing while you're a bit closer each time...(course, as you know, it may take a long time to get that lickin and chewing so be patient!)...once she gets to where i can get fairly close to her without freaking out i'd start working the draw reflex, and then integrate the symp/parasymp response with the draw reflex so that she starts looking at you... remember to work each side to the level that she's ready for, but not to try to get too much closer until each side is ready.. and dont let her change eyes unless you want her too...(sorry, stuff you already know already...)
i'm sure you'll worry about the rope when she's ready for you to get to the rope, unless its a true danger to her...
i'll say again, sure is good she has you!...if i can ever get my mortgage worked out and get into my new place i'll have room for one or two rescues as well...kinda miss the rehab... its so rewarding isnt it!
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2007 - 9:31 am:
Thanks Melissa .. now let me make sure I am with you here. Is the "cortex" reference similar to the "left brain" or "thinking" side, and the "subcortex/limbic" system reference similar to the "right brain" or reacting side?
Now, if I understand correctly, it is OK to spike a "sympathetic" reaction by approaching her, then work that down to a "parasympathetic" response by gentling and touching until she rests and digests all that has just happened. Then, I would repeat these steps until I can begin to draw her in to me.
Would it be too tramatic, or too much of a spike to rope her so that I can control a bit more, and then bring her down? With many horses I find that once I have a rope on them I can bring them into me with very light pressure on the rope, and get there more quickly. But, in this case I wonder if it is just best to continue working with her loose.
Thanks for all your input and help. Let me know if I am understanding your concept properly.
DT
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2007 - 10:29 am:
Good question for Melissa, Dennis. Man, I read that & thought I needed to go to medical school for a minute.
I am wondering, have you had a rope in your hand when in the pen with her? I'd like to know how she reacts/reacted to the sight of a rope.
Keep us posted, I am really curious how this all works out, and how you apply Melissa's ideas to this helping this mare out. I am thinking once you get to her, get the rope off, she is going to be like "what's the big deal, get on with my training already,...no problem here."
Melissa,
If you would, please elaborate on the trust and pressure tolerance training. It seems to all tie in and I think I know what you mean. But if you would put it out there in your words that would much appreciated.
Thanks!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2007 - 1:19 pm:
Hi Dennis,
I was never taught of cortex/subcortex in terms of left and right side, but the understanding of it is the same who cares if its left or right side or a different part of the brain entirely...
angie-the guy who taught me this was a PhD at one time.. we spent lots and lots of lecture time discussing the brain...medulla, pons, various nerves and what part of the body was reacted when each nerve was stimulated...aye yaie yaie!.. we spent as much time in the classroom as we did in the round pen i think!...
based on Dennis' description of the mare and how she puts her head down and avoids looking at the human i doubt she'll be totally cured once the rope is off.. she's got major avoidance symptoms and a huge coping mechanism going on that Dennis is going to have to work thru.. With his skills i'm sure it will be sooner rather than later, but still not soon...
Dennis, I would absolutely use a rope if you have the skills to get it on her... since she wont let you near you'd have to rope her.. me, i dont rope that well, so takes me a few days extra to just work a horse to get next to me, than i go to the rope because if you can stimulate a better sympthetic response then you will get a MUCH better parasympathetic response and make things come along much quicker.. the only thing i would change is NOT touching her until she's drawing in on her own rather than you having to reel her in...
Angie... when i have a little more time i'll post about your questions on trust and pressure tolerance...why couldnt you have asked that question last week when i was goofing off all week?...kinda busy right now...thanks heavens for a lunch hour (which is actually only 20 minutes today but who's counting???)
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2007 - 2:14 pm:
Taking my lunch too right now, although I can take it whenever I want, being at home. My sinus med just kicked in, so feeling almost perky right now, lol!
I don't rope either, never tried it, but I have had good luck with putting a flat rubber feed container on the ground, with grain in it, and the loop of the rope around that. Once the horse gets comfy eating, just flip the rope over the head. Of course, if you miss, you've got more problems. As always, depends on the horse, the situation, which way the wind is blowing, if the horse happens to be blinking as the rope flips, etc.
Looking forward to your trust and pressure tolerance thoughts.
Just thinking out loud here, I wonder if roping this mare won't scare the heck out of her? Maybe a rope will set her back farther in her trust of humans.
Love to see a picture of this horse, Dennis, and the rope on her foot.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2007 - 9:29 pm:
There are pros and cons to roping a horse... Dennis can actually use that little bit of heightened response to his advantage, but only he can decide exactly where the mare is at and what is best for her, cause he's the only one who can see her... i personally wouldnt use a feed tub trick because i want the horse to be with me, not with food....plus he probably cant get close enough to her to flip a rope on her that way anyways.. but again, only he can see the horse and see where she needs to go...
ok, pressure tolerance... i wrote this during my dinner break... its a bit long, bear with me...
very hyper sensitive/over reactive horses have very little pressure tolerance (generally). they can only handle a certain amount of interactions before they start to get tense.. each human interaction is pressure.. this is esepcially true with a horse that is overreactive and obviously bothered by his environment...
now, imagine a tiny little vial, a large beaker (like high school chemistry) and a water tank.. each interaction is like water being put into a container... the overreactive horse generally has a tiny vial as his water container.. it doesnt take much for him to overflow.. the overflow is when he "freaks out".. horses with more pressure tolerance are like having the larger water containers.. the largest water container takes a long time to fill..
now the trust is what allows the horse to let the water out of the container (when around a human) before it overflows.. its like the "pressure release valce".. the outward sign of the pressure release valc is the licking/chewing/yawning.. its actually really hard for a horse to really let all that go right after an interaction.. this is why the pressure builds up...when a horse can lick/chew etc.. right after every interaction than he can keep the buildup from getting too high and overflowing.. in order to get to where he can do this he has to really feel comfortable with the human and see us as the place of lowest pressure...
first you work to get the horse to trust and relax enough around you so that he sees us as low pressure and can relax after every interaction (this is why its so important to take the time to chill with your horse after everything you do, even something as simply (actually very complex) as feeding or turning out... never mind the "real" interactions..
eventually the horse gets to where he "never" overflows his water container during the little stuff and stays at empty.. the next swtep is to set up the "dose" method so that you can make his water container a little larger.. rather than 1 interaction, then pause and do another, you do 2 interactions, then pause and wait.. then, when this is no big deal, you go to 3, 4 etc..
each time you increase the interactions you step up the pressure, and the pressure release will be correspondingly be bigger... when the pressure release is really small-rather than 30 seconds of licking/chewing etc.., its 3 seconds of light licking, then his water container has gotten a little bigger and now you can step up the pressure...
phew!.. ok.. i really rambled there...hope it made a little big of sense!!!
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 20, 2007 - 6:39 am:
Awesome analogy!
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 20, 2007 - 7:23 am:
Dennis,
Your helper (is it the young girl who could ride horses forever?) seems to really be on-track with this mare. Since she is in a decent sized paddock, she can be kept there, I presume, rather than being turned out into a pasture. If it were me, and providing I felt the mare was reasonably safe to be around, I would just sit inside the paddock on a stool away from the horse, maybe with a book to read, and have no thought about "working" with or touching the mare. Once it becomes the mare's idea to come over and investigate, I believe it will be more beneficial to her socialization with humans because it will develop her confidence and bravery. She would not necessarily be "tolerating", but rather would be instigating. Once she comes over, I would go slowly in how much I touch her; just sniff noses and a few rubs where she is comfortable. If after doing this repeatedly over several sessions, she comes over of her own choosing, then she might be ready for rope removal, etc. It might be helpful to have different humans passively exposed, reading, in the paddock, just so the mare doesn't associate safety with only one person.
This is a Parelli technique and I used it myself when I first brought my horse home to our boarding barn. His curiosity got the better of him, he came over to investigate (probably thought I had found the best grass and was hoarding it). I did this about two or three times on different days. Since then, he would always come to me. I believe it was because it was his idea in the first place.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2007 - 10:33 am:
Intersting thread.
Just this week I took in a mare that had been a rescue. The new owner found she didn't have the time to spend with her so she brought the mare to me.
There is no history on the mare, all we know is what we see.
She is exhibiting the same behaviour Dennis described. So similar but without the rope on the leg.
Going to a corner, lowering her head to the ground.
Like Dennis, I began wondering should I push a bit harder or continue what I was doing.
After the third day I could approach either side, start, stop, and rub her barrel, withers and the base of her neck, if I touched her rump or legs her flanks would quiver, if I tried to get close to her head she would wheel away.
Generally I prefer to work with the horse loose in a pen, I think, kinda like Melissa described, if their tank gets to full they can leave-relieve the pressure- then I re-approach.
The second day she was here I spent about three hours walking behind her, when she stopped I could aproach her shoulder, give her a few rubs, at first just a couple of soft touches was all she could handle then she would move on.
As we were walking around she kept her rear 'pointed' at me.It was like she was doing a haunches in.
Gradually she started tracking and I could touch her for longer.
At the end of our session I could start, stop her and approach without her 'pointing' at me. This was on one side only.
On the fourth day after working with her for a while I decided she was less scared and more just determined not to let me touch her head so I carefully put a halter on her. I was able to do this because she is pony and I was able to stand at her wither, reach both hands down towards her head and slip the halter on. There was a bit more to it but you get the idea.
Then I put a halter rope on and just took the slack out of the rope. That caused a reaction, I let her adjust and think about it, we progressed slowly from there. On that day all I accomplished was to be able to take the slack out of the rope and have her relax slightly toward me. Forget the both eyes looking at me, not happening yet.
After some time I could approach her directly and then, yes with a bit of holding, I did get my hands on her face, she put up a fuss at first then like it was ok.
I hadn't analyzed what I was doing but I see the pattern after reading these posts.
Am I correct in reading the "cortex" response in the horse is the reaction to stimuli and the "subcortex" is the letdown or relaxing of the horse?
Now let me resay that there was a point for her where she was not so afraid as determined, that was the deciding factor for me to insist a bit.
I can't wait to get out to see her today.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2007 - 7:21 pm:
Angie ... here are a couple of pics.
This mare will probably be coming home with me. I haven't quite caught her yet, but she sneaked into my soul when I wasn't watching. They'll do that you know.
DT
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2007 - 7:44 pm:
OK ... here they are. Maybe ...
DT
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2007 - 8:28 pm:
Man, Dennis. How old is she? I just ask because I can't help to wonder how sad her life must have been thus far.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Sep 21, 2007 - 9:29 pm:
Yeah, Den . . . have to watch those sneaky ones . . .
Well, you got her in a stall, it looks like, and her feet don't look in bad shape. Is the rope cutting into her or is it loose around her pastern?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 8:11 am:
Thanks Dennis.
She looks like a nice little mare. Stands with her hind feet a little under her? I thought the rope was on a back foot for some reason.
Lucky girl going home with you; she'll be in good hands!
Keep us posted, maybe you can start a new thread just on her progress and how FB's methods, and Melissa's advice applied so we can learn from it.
Don't mean to be a pain by asking and of course you can decline. I know your days are full as is. You're just so darn good with advice, Cowboy!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 8:16 am:
Oops, forgot to thank you Melissa for your addition to this. I've read and reread all your posts, tried to post a reply and nothing happened, apparently the computer was asleep.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 12:17 am:
Just wondering about the progress of the mare Dennis.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 8:56 am:
Well the mare came home with me last night ... with no rope around her leg. She is now trying to figure out the great outdoors as she is in a 40' paddock area. Its only a 40' paddock, but she has learned she can lope a little .. looked pretty good at it actually. I know she was enjoying it.
This basically what we did this weekend. My helper and I got into the corral with her, and approaching from the rear as she stood in the corner, we could get our hands on her and rub her rear and barrel area .. nothing forward of the withers. After she settled a bit, my helper would get out, and I would try approaching from the front and she would get very excited and apprehensive. I would rope her, and work on some pressure and release with the rope on her neck. Then, remove the rope and let it all sink in. Then my helper would get back in, and repeat the process.
After a few repetitions of this, she began to face us a bit more, instead of immediately running away and hiding head in the corner. Still could not touch the head area, but would simply move away, and stop after only a couple of feet. I was able to draw her in a bit with body language, and at least get her to look at me.
The next morning, we had a couple more quick sessions .. then my helper got in the corral by herself and sat cross legged and eventually got her to nibble some hay out of her hand. After a while, she put a flake of hay in her lap, and just sat there until the mare finally came over and grabbed a bite at a time. In a short time, she was happy to just stand and eat the hay out of lap without retreating with every bite. At this time, my helper could reach up slowly and stroke the side of her face, just a moment at a time, and not forcing the issue.
The mare eventually got comfortable enough with my helper that she began to nudge her legs over with her nose to get at the hay that had fallen from her lap. Not pushy, just nudging her legs over enough to get to the hay underneath. Finally, she was able to touch her leg while she ate next to her, and she began to manipulate the knots in the rope.
This girl sat cross legged in the corral with the mare for about 2 hours, and then I heard her call out to me .. she had the rope in her hand, and a tear in her eye. Within a minute, there was not a dry eye in the barn as they all saw the rope in her hand, and realized what had happened .. including yours truly, who was a little choked up as I gave my helper a giant hug.
We still have a long way to go, but now that we have her home, we will be able to build on this confidence rather quickly I hope. I adopted this horse for me and my helper, and she is going to be our little project. I love this 15 year old girl like she was my own daughter, and folks say we make a great team. I guess I would have to agree. Will post some more pics later, and maybe start a new thread on this horse's progress. I have a feeling she will be happy here.
DT
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 9:37 am:
Great story - great outcome - lucky mare! Lilo
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 9:47 am:
Tears here too! Your "helper" needs to be applauded and recognized for her patience and gentle way. At least tell us her first name, as I hope you will continue to unfold the mare's progress. I have a feeling this mare will give you guys her entire heart very soon.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 10:07 am:
Dennis,
I've got tears too. What a beautiful story, but then I knew with you being involved there would be a happy ending.
Yes, please start a new thread on this mares progress!
Sounds like there are 2 lucky girls here; the mare, and the 15 year old helper.
Give both girls a hug from me! Well, wait til the mare is accepting hugs of course.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 10:18 am:
Her name is Kaity ... She is a great girl and a wonderful horse person. She says I taught her everything she knows, but I gotta' tell ya' ... I have learned a bit from her as well.
No Angie ... I think there is 1 lucky man in this story.
DT
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 10:43 am:
Just like horses, if WE listen we can learn,,, I find this true with some of our young folk too.. I LOVE working with the kids.. they are like putty and so willing to try!~ I think young girls, no offence DT, seem to have the heart to take the time to just be patient and wait.. I remember sitting in the pasture with the new born ponies as a young girl .. just waiting for the foal to come to me and then be my best friend.. I could sit all day , if my uncle would allow..
Kaity sounds like a gem..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:49 am:
Wonderful story. I am such a sap-I am crying too.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 12:14 pm:
Very touching, commendable results, Den and Kaity.
I've done enough crying this week, so your account made my heart smile.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 2:21 pm:
No dry eyes here either!! If only there were more like you and Kaity!
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 3:27 pm:
Good job, all three of you. Tears here too. Leilani
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2007 - 12:25 am:
Thanks for the update, glad she's home with you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2007 - 8:38 am:
Great update Denny, that mare is very lucky. I had a mare like that long ago. I would sit for hours with her...once we got to that point. She turned out to be a great horse and I sold her to a good family that loved her.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 5:57 pm:
great update Dennis! so glad things are going so well....not surprising tho....figured things would go about that way...
sorry about the lateness in congratulations but I have almost zero access to horseadvice now... my home computer is currently dead and the process of buying a home leaves me without much funds to buy a new one... i cant access horseadvice at work.. its blocked on my computer.. must be cause there's some sort of porn or something here..*LOL*
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 4:11 pm:
A couple of pics of our frightened little mare taken yesterday ............. I think she likes it here.
DT 
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 6:03 pm:
Wow!!!! Lilo
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 7:08 pm:
It does a heart good, Dennis! Congrats to you, your helper and your sweet little mare.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
Nice job, cowboy!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 8:43 pm:
YES, with her ears casually flopped to each side no stress there what a very grand job you three have done! No wonder we assigned you a white cowboy hat long time back. Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 9:09 pm:
Excellent Job Dennis and helper. That must be almost as good a feeling as winning the lottery.
suz
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 9:11 pm:
That is so great.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 - 10:14 pm:
Yee Hah! Cute mare--it looks as if she has really good bone. I think that quarter horse mind will over come the bad start with the help you're giving her! Kudos to you all!
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Monday, Oct 15, 2007 - 3:19 pm:
She's a very, very lucky mare. Leilani
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