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  Discussion on How exactly do you "wait it out" with stubborn horse?
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Member:
heidim

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 11:05 am:

My new 5-year-old Bashkir Curly is still at the trainers. This breed is known for their docile dispositions and for planting their feet rather than fleeing when they are unsure of something. In a phone conversation, the trainer told me that "Mac" sacked out easier than any horse she's ever worked with but that he is very stubborn when teaching him news things like responding to the bit. She sees this as a good thing in the long run because once he is convinced to do what his rider wants, the new behavior really sticks. She says that, when I get Mac back in a few weeks, I need to be ready to "wait it out" if he decides to balk at something new. For example, if he won't cross a bridge, I will need to stay there until he gives in. (She said I may also need to take baby steps to get him to do what I want but that only makes sense.) Here are my questions: What exactly do I do with Mac while we're waiting there? Just stand there? Nudge him forward, even if he wont' move? And how do I handle this situation if it happens on a trail ride? Let's face it, I can't possibly think up and practice ahead of time every possible situation we might encounter. I'd feel bad holding the others back, and yet I see Mac possibly getting very upset if he's left behind. I don't believe it's safe riding alone. Let's say, too, that my husband agrees to practice with me ahead of time. If Mac balks at the aforementioned bridge, where should my husband position his mount? At the other end of the bridge, even if it's long? In case you're wondering why I'm expecting the worst, allow me to explain our first experience trailering Mac. We'd had him three days, and I went to load him using my usual no-fail method of "pestering him" on the hocks with a whip. When a long time with light whacks got us nowhere, I slowly whacked a little harder. Mac resisted by rearing up and hustling backward. This was his third time being trailered, and he was making it very clear that he'd just rather not go inside, thank you. We ended up calling the trainer, and she had us literally drag him into the trailer with a long rope that we attached to the front pole using a half-hitch. He fought like a wildcat but was pleasant as could be once he got inside. It seemed to be more about his winning the argument than about over coming some fear. All ideas appreciated.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 11:33 am:

Read a good book? Balance your checkbook?

Your trainer wants you to just sit there?

When I have a horse that balks, we do circles by disengaging the hindquarters. I'll tip the head towards my knee on that same side, do a few circles, face the direction I want to go, and then ask for forward movement. If the horse is afraid, I'll let him stand and look, but no backing up, no trying to run out another direction.

I would not hit him on the rump with a whip, or start nudging harder and harder, just do the circles.

I think you've got more training issues here than the balking, and need to do lots, and lots of ground work. This docile horse may not stand for the whip on the hocks thing. I'd put the whip away and start reading on here all you can about ground work, manners, disengagement, and GROUND WORK. I don't think this horse is ready for riding IMO.

Any trainer that drags a horse into a trailer isn't fit to be a trainer. That's not TRAINING! This horse isn't argueing, he don't understand what is being asked of him because he hasn't had the proper training.
Member:
heidim

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 12:41 pm:

Thanks, Angie. I like what you said to do while waiting it out. The trainer may have recommended the same but our cell phones cut out. I wanted other ideas in the meantime.

I do need to point out that this horse was trailered just three days before we tried to load him again, and nothing bad occurred during the ride to upset him. His former owner used grain to help coax him into the trailer, something I personally refuse to do. Mac figured out how to stand at the very edge of the trailer and suck up as much grain as possible without going in. I'm not sure how he finally came to be loaded, but the process took the owner an hour and a half. The owner also admitted he asked a non-horsey neighbor to help, and that only made things worse. So, Mac literally learned how to keep from getting himself loaded. He's quite at home once he's in the trailer, so it's not about his being afraid of what's inside. I'm fine with doing more groundwork. I just wanted you and others to know that Mac is prone to stubbornness, just as some people are. It's not just about overcoming fear in this case.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 1:02 pm:

I think, just as Angie says, you are rushing this horse. Put the time and patience into good ground work, building a relationship, and successful training and you won't have a stubborn horse one day. There are so many good people out there teaching how to trailer load. There is no need to use force or food to get him inside, just use patience and proper techniques and he will want to get in.

Taking on a young horse is a long-term project. Take it one step at a time and you won't be disappointed. Learn how to train him yourself.

Good luck,
Linda
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 4:18 pm:

Do a search on trailer loading and read Dr. O's article and read the discussions about loading. You will find a much better way to go about this and in the process you will be doing some ground work that this horse seems to need. I agree your trainer sounds less than "talented".
Member:
heidim

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 4:45 pm:

I read Dr. O's article, and the only thing we did differently was not have the chain over Mac's nose when he reared. Beyond that, we did everything the article says, as this is the same process I learned at a John Lyons' symposium years ago. I've helped many friends load their horses his way, and it's never failed. All I can say is that it got us nowhere with Mac. Again, I didn't use the chain over his nose, but that sounds pretty harsh, too, and possibly leaves me open to striking (which Mac never did, by the way).
Member:
heidim

Posted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2007 - 5:50 pm:

Just to clarify, by "dragging" Mac into the trailer, I mean we took up any slack as he got closer to the trailer. We didn't tie him to a moving tractor or anything like that. When I taught my two-year-old to tie, he pulled with all his might one day and then he surrendered and we've had no more of that since. Some people propose teaching a horse to tie by letting out a little slack when they pull back. Frankly, a horse that needs that kind of give isn't a tying horse to me. How would you ever monitor that kind of thing if and when, for example, you go horse camping. Stay up all night in case Bucky needs a little space? Don't get me wrong--I think groundwork is great. My two-year-old walked right into the trailer the first time due to all the work we'd done beforehand. But that's not always possible with ever horse and in every situation. In a perfect world maybe, but I have yet to live in one of those.
Member:
ellab

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 2:21 pm:

I have found the best way to get a horse to go forward is to ask them to move backward. They would really prefer to go forward (which they can see) than go backward (which they can not). I don't do it in a way this is punishing, just ask for a few backward steps - then ask for the forward movement again. When they stop moving forward I ask for the backward ones again. It has been an excellent tool for me and would work in the riding and the loading situation. In one you would be mounted and the other on the ground.

When I am using this to teach trailer loading and the horse takes a step forward I let them stand a good minute before I ask them to move forward again. I then hold lightly with the line (yes, chain over the nose) until they either take another step forward (then they get to rest) or go backward (in which case I make them move backward several more steps). If they rear I also make them move backward - but further, a few more steps than before.

When mounted it is simpler. If I ask them to move forward and they do not, then I ask them to move backward two or three steps. Then forward again. They would prefer not to go backward so eventually they go forward.

Good Luck,

EllaB :-)
Member:
heidim

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 3:34 pm:

Oh, I like that idea. It sounds so much better than just sitting there forever. Have you ever had a horse get frustrated with this approach and rear up on you (while you are on board, I mean)? If so, what do you recommend as a next step?
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 5:17 pm:

Hi Heidi, I have watched several trainers, John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli & Dennis Reis teach trailer loading. This weekend I am going to a Chris Cox clinic in L.A. and I am sure he will also do a trailer loading demo. A couple things that I learned with Clinton and Dennis are they work the horse around the trailer first. Start by moving the horse between you and a fence, back and forth. Make him turn, don't go in circles and get the space between you and the fence tight like the inside of the trailer. Then you can also have him cross a piece of plywood on the ground to make noise. Your going to set up the idea that outside the trailer means work and inside is rest. Then work him around the trailer, the side as well as the back the same way you did by the fence. Don't even act like you are going to put him in there. I have used Parelli's method and this is similar but with more energy than I have seen him use. Your guy has a different attitude and you said that he is docile. I think that he would rather rest than work. If you have a ramp lower it and have him cross it a bunch. Now its time to start the loading part. Let him stop whenever he is facing into the trailer. As soon as he turns his head away make him go back to work. Pretty soon he will connect looking into the trailer means a chance to rest. After that start asking for more and if he backs away, go back to work. You don't have to run him just keep him moving. He should soon be checking the trailer out,smelling, pawing and even biting it. Let him, as long as he is giving it attention that's good. He should start taking a step or two into the trailer. As soon as he does BACK HIM OUT! You want him to learn that he will not be trapped in there! Then ask him again, do not pull on him and go back to making him work if his feet get sticky. Load and unload each foot a lot. This will help him learn how to unload with out rushing back. DO NOT wait to train him until you need to go somewhere. You can also break the training up into two or three lessons. The first day get him moving between you and the fence and crossing the plywood. The second day work him around the trailer, crossing the ramp and stopping to look into the trailer. You can stop and pick up the next day just stop when he is moving toward the trailer or standing looking at it. I start a week or two before and then take them for ride's around the block. My mare Shimmeree had trailered fine when she was younger and had her mom with her. Eight years went by without any trailering so I started over and this time she was totally nervous and sweated buckets. By taking short rides they have a chance to get used to it and not get sick.
If you are on a trail and you come to a creek or a bridge move him back and forth always turning in the direction of the bridge or water. You may only be able to do a couple steps, thats okay. As you turn he is going to get closer and closer and eventually step into the water or onto the bridge. Clinton tells a story about how kids slide along the side of the pool as they get into the deep end, being able to step out gives the kid or horse more courage to go deeper. John says to break it up into small steps if you have a problem try to sit down and figure out how to teach it in smaller pieces. And reward the try with a rest. I stop with small improvements and they learn faster! You CAN NOT win in a pulling contest, the horse is stronger that you and if you tie to a solid post he could injure himself or learn to break free. I use the Blocker tie ring, the horse gets calmer because it gives enough that they don't panic I watched Clinton Anderson demonstrate the Blocker tie ring with a mare who had learned to break free and in a short time she was standing tied without pulling back.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 6:00 pm:

Ellab, you'd have gotten a kick out of a woman and her horse at the Denver show. He horse would NOT go into the arena for any class, and she was in several. She backed her horse into the arena every time, then turned and proceeded!

I've also gotten horses through water, over hoses, etc. by backing them over. Once over, they'll go forward to cross it again.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 6:43 pm:

Sara that is so funny.. i have done the same , back over / thru / in.. Took a mare to the beach.. she would not get in that water to save our lives.. so i backed her in.. actually so far in that a wave crashed over us and we had to swim .. * kind of scary fun * ..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member:
heidim

Posted on Friday, Sep 14, 2007 - 10:14 pm:

This is all good and helpful. Thanks for sharing your expertise. I now have an arsenal of ideas to keep Mac hopping!
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Saturday, Sep 15, 2007 - 9:22 am:

Sara,
I tried the backing once to get Mona to cross some water in the road. It worked like a charm. But when I tried it again a couple of weeks later, she refused to go in backwards. She's smart and remembered the backing. Eventually, with kind persistence, she now crosses even deep creek water.
Kathleen
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Sep 15, 2007 - 12:18 pm:

I would not back straight back, I would have my leg back on one side and ask for the hindquarters to move over. I've backed horses also to encourage movement forward when a horse is balking but I don't make it the first suggestion because of the rearing possibility. Depends on the horse and the situation. On a really stubborn creature, I might take the ends of my reins and slap the horses rump around to really get an energy charged spin going, then ask for forward again. Normally that is only needed one time, and the horse figures out I mean business.
And I very seldom have done that with my own horses because they've had a good foundation when started.
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