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Discussion on Andalusian Mare - was great, now acting up under saddle
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New Member:
Mcclenny
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 - 8:46 am:
I have searched all over but haven't found this identical problem so decided to post. There seems to be a lot of wisdom here.
A year ago I purchased a 11 year old Andalusian Mare. She had recently been brought to England from Spain. I rode her on a week long riding holiday and really enjoyed her. She is very forward going/ a little nervous, but all in all was quite a joy. The folks that had her decided to get out of the riding holidays and into breeding. As we will only be here for two years I agreed to let them buy her back after the two years and they would like to use her for a brood mare.
I have enjoyed hacking out for the last year and recently started schooling her. Early in the schooling she was fine and would do what was asked. The school where we school her is a bit small for her and has a wood chip/bark flooring. It can be slippery and she has lost her footing a few times. About a month ago, my trainer asked me to canter her on both reins and she was very hesitant and it was late in the lesson, so I just asked my trainer to get on instead of pursuing on my own. My mare got really angry and tried to get rid of the trainer running into the walls of the school and refused to canter on the left rein at all. Finally the trainer gave up and I have been having increasing problems with her as well - I have given up on the trainer and just want my happy hacking horse back. Up to this point she had never done anything nasty to me at all.
I have given up going in the school and instead work in one of two large fields. Now my horse skips about when trotting mostly. She occasionally will not turn to the left but instead slides her whole body to the right. I have tried riding with virtually no rein contact and concentrate on giving correct instructions with my legs. She has been getting a bit better, but then yesterday when I asked for canter she went fine for about 10 steps then put her head down and tried a few bucks. I find this most unnerving. This is just not her temperment. She is extremely sensitive.
I have had the physio out and she did find some muscle tension in her left neck muscle as well as a little bit of soreness in her left shoulder.
Any advise on how to procede would be most appreciated.
I had decided that her behavior was just being naughtly and did try riding with a crop (as I usually don't). She reacted strongly and negatevely to that idea.
I plan on calling then dentist out again although she was just seen 5 months ago.
The saddler has just been out and assured me all is well with her saddle.
Thanks for any and all help. I am a new horse owner and am feeling at quite a loss about how to proceed.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2004 - 8:06 am:
Hello Hillary,
In the past twenty years I have seen 2 horses slip their training and seemingly lose their mind under saddle. In both cases we spent much time and effort trying to find a medical reason for the change in attitude under saddle without success. I think you do start with a complete medical work up trying to find either painful areas or possible a reason for the change in personality which includes a hormonal work up (mainly looking for granulosa cell tumor).
Failing finding a reason for the change the horse should be placed with someone who breaks green horses and started from scratch. I have always thought the next one of these I get I was going to try a course of Prolixin, for more see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Fluphenazine (Prolixin).
DrO
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Member:
Mcclenny
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2004 - 9:23 am:
I was hoping for a little more advice and/or comments. Is this not an active site? 
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2004 - 9:50 am:
Hilary ... I thought DR O's advise was valid. Check all medical and physical first, and if no apparent problems, it is back to some basics on training. A professional is the best approach as there are many possible causes, and therefore training approaches. Many times it is just an attitude that worked once and is therfore always in the mind of the horse. This may also be dangerous for someone not experienced in green horses as reactions can be unpredictable. Also, it is important that you try to remember or investigate any possible situations which may have triggered this problem i/e the slipping in the arena, etc. and make sure the trainer has this information. A good trainer will be able to use this information in developing a training regimen. Fortunately, in my experience as a trainer, most problems can be eliminated with the proper program of response, reward, and repetition.
DT
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 2:46 am:
Hillary,
I strongly believe your problem is a classic training mistake.
The fact that she repeatdly lost her footing means that you pushed her too much too early.
The first sign of pushing too much in schooling is when the horse becomes hesitant, doubting actually that your commands are sane and/or safe to follow.
Now she's angry, because she's persuaded that what you've asked her to perform is unsafe and irrational. I believe she is right!
Performing in a tight, slippery arena is extremely difficult for a horse, especially for a green one. And your mare may be a seasoned trail horse but is obviously green in the arena.
If you have been cantering her in circles tighter than 10 meters in diameter on slippery footing, there's nothing wrong with her head, but there's definitely something wrong with your trainer's head.
Now if you also attempted some canter figures of eight in an arena where she was loosing her footing, yes, I believe she's right that she should follow your commands no more. Remember, she's an experienced horse, she knows right from wrong. And I think using that crop was wrong, as she very clearly told you.
Escaping sideways to the outside of the turn means that your outside rein is open, loose, and it does not control the outside shoulder.
It also means that you have been pulling her into tight turns in a slippery arena with just the inside rein, a very imbalancing thing to do.
I'd suggest that you check in with a reputable dressage trainer. And that you definitely open those circles to no less than 20m until you get it right.
Oh, and I think you should keep all "I can break any horse" or "I can teach her a lesson" people off her back. She's already angry, don't make a rodeo star out of her.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 10:14 am:
Hillary,
I felt like applauding when I read Christo's post. I have a very sensitive Arab mare who has many times gotten very ornery with me. I now feel that at least 90% of it was my own ignorance, because A. the bit was too much for her mouth. B. Her teeth needed work and her mouth was sore. C. the saddle fit was all wrong for her and she's sore. (still working on that)
A horse who suddenly acts up is doing so for a very good reason. She's trying to tell you something, so don't respond by being angry and trying to manhandle her into submission. She may very well be hurting from falling, or just remembers getting hurt and is protecting herself.
The above advice is very good from everyone. If you are sure you want to devote time to this horse, start all over. Spend lots of time just grooming, hand grazing, leading on walks. Gain her trust and respect. Restart ground work like working on a long lead and just changing directions. Work only as much as she says she can handle. Don't be in a hurry to trot, a walk is fine. Gradually go to lounging...very easy, no small circles. If she reacts to that, ground drive in straight lines, again long walks. Don't even think of putting a saddle on her.
This may take 6 months or more. She may be hurting inside from falling, or she just may remember falling. Time and lots of patience is what you need.
If she were my horse, and I was sure I wanted to keep her, I would just let her be a horse on vacation for a long time, like over winter. Then start slowly the following spring. Just groom and handle feet, work on stall manners over the winter. It won't make her worse, it will let her relax and heal emotionally and maybe physically.
Good Luck, keep us posted what happens with her.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 10:45 am:
Excellent advice from all, Hillary. From your second post I get the feeling you're impatient and understandably frustrated. Maybe some of this has been coming from your trainer? IMO you did well to leave the trainer. Spend time with your horse alone for awhile, following your instincts (and the mare's) and relax with her a bit until she regains her confidence in you (and vice versa) I'm pretty sure that out hacking she'll be fine. Then, follow Christo's advice and find a good dressage trainer. If there are none in your area, there are lots of excellent books and videos out that you can learn from; there are also some site online that should be helpful. Just take time and don't rush. Also, with an experienced horse,listen and learn from her, too. Often training is a two way street. Good luck.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 10:49 am:
Christos-are you sure you wouldn't like to move to S.Utah? We could sure use your talants and advice here! I have several horses I'd put in with you right now.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 11:08 am:
No, Christos wants to move to California! I could certainly use some help! 
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Member:
Mcclenny
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 11:41 am:
Hi All - Thank you so much for the help. I have to admit when I saw Christo’s post - It really struck a cord. Somehow, I was sure that was what happened and it gave me hope. I hadn't been on my horse in a couple of weeks but this morning asked my daughter if she wanted to go on a nice trail ride. We went out and my mare was a little more skittish than normal, but I just relaxed and took deep breaths and we had a fantastic ride. We were able to do a little trotting and a short canter in the woods. She really loved that and didn't act up at all. She was near perfect.
I am thankful that the trainer is gone and I have a lead on a new trainer who has done wonders with a friend and her horse. She is dressage qualified and registered here. I now know that if I see something I don't} feel right about I need to speak out and stop it. I know my horse and I know she does not respond well to bullying. I am in no hurry to restart the schooling as the school where we are really is too small for a horse the size of mine. But the yard is nice and small and relaxed, so I am not sure if we will stay where we are or look for another livery yard with a nice school.
For now I just want to do some easy nice hacking and work on reestablishing the trust between the two of us.
I didn't mention it in the first post but there is something else that happened that probably has changed our relationship, although I didn't give it credit for that initially. I have always been very brave and outgoing and willing to try most anything without any fear. Then about 7 weeks ago while leading my daughter's pony (14.3) from the field, he spooked and trampled me, didn't break any bones but did trod on me in two places and I had to get my head stitched from where I landed on my backside in the rock drive. Anyway, understandably I now had a new fear, especially on the ground with him, but it may have subconsciously affected my riding as well on my mare. So that is why I now realize that I have been tensing up a little bit and just need to relax and work on the trust once again. I know horses are so good at sensing when something may be wrong.
Well, thanks again all for the postings. I will keep you all informed of the progress.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 6:51 pm:
Good for you, Hilary. A few relaxed "jaunts" are just what both of you need. I'm sure your experience did effect you some and that probably just added to the difficulties. But, imo the major problem was with the attempted training. Sounds like you're on the right track.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 8:28 pm:
I am glad Hilary that this site is helping you. Great advise from everyone. Your horse is always your best teacher. No horse is the same and the tolerence level for each is individual. Everyone used to say I spoil or pamper my horse because if he was upset or misbehaving I would do and change all I could untill he was happy. He is like yours very sensative. I listen to him like a hawk. He will give me everything he has and more as long as what I do doesnt hurt him and the trust is there. If I start to fall or do come off he stops till I get my balance or if I come off he comes by me and stands looking at me like what are you doing. He prefers to be with me than his buddies.It always amazes me that these animals let us do what we do to them good and bad. They actually let us sit on their backs and tell them what to do, willingly. I never forget that it is a honour to befriend a horse. Not like some people I know that think that the horse somehow is supossed to do everything asked regardless of how its asked. I owe my horse and horses owned in my past everything. I am soo glad you are listening to you horse. Good luck though I am sure now you both will be fine.
Oh by the way. Why do feel you need a trainer? your horse ? you? Want to know dressage? Just curious.
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 12:06 pm:
Thanks a lot, Sara and Aileen, I really needed the smiles.
Dear Hilary, my trainer used to say that there's no bigger fear next to a horse than the one of damaging a frienship that will otherwise last for many, many years.
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Member:
Mcclenny
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Posted on Monday, Sep 6, 2004 - 11:46 am:
Just an update to let you all know that a little over a week ago we found an opporunity to move to a yard with a nice large school and wonderful hacking right out the front door. My Mare has been perfect since being moved! She is an absolute angel. She must have been very unhappy at the last place as she is completely back to her old self.
In fact, my daughter's pony reinjured his suspensory ligament after the move (a little bit too much fun with the other geldings). So she was going to be without a horse for her group lesson last Wednesday. She decided she would try my horse, knowing that it would probably only last about ten minutes and she would be out of the class. Well, my mare was so well behaved and did so well that my daughter stayed for the whole class and couldn't stop singing my horse's praises. We were both so happy.
So thanks for the help and advice and I just can't stress enough how important it is to listen to our horses. They may not be able to use words but they sure can let us know when they aren't happy with something.
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