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Discussion on Rolling in the round pen during training
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 11:01 pm:
I must confess, we have been very busy at work, so I have not worked my 4 yr. old in a while. It has been raining here alot. I took him into the round pen today, and sent him off for a couple of rounds. He does fine, until I put the longe line on, then he will not move out. He just does annoying circles around me. Definately misbehaving. Then for the second time he has done this. He plops down on the ground, and rolls. Last time he did this with my brand new saddle on. What should I do, when he DrOps to the ground, and why is he doing this?????
I finally took the long line and kept whopping him on the side of his neck to get him to move away from me. Am I confusing him or is he just being a "butttt head"????
I know my neglect at working him is a cause for concern, but I am not sure what to do. He use to be perfect at longing. Has he tired of this exercise??
HELP!!!
thanks}
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 6:28 am:
Is it possible that the saddle doesn't quite fit or there is something not quite right with the saddle pad? You did mention in another post that he has put on a fair amount of weight recently.
He may also just really like to roll. Having such a horse, I figured out the best way to deal with the rolling thing is to make sure he has plenty of opportunity to roll outside of work time, AND to use it as a reward after our ride (you should see the look I get if, after a ride, we don't go directly to the roll spot!)
On the more serious side, my horse used to always be wanting to get off his feet ... and we figured out this was because his feet HURT BADLY. So you might want to check into that angle as well.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 10:08 am:
I certainly would check out the saddle and other equipment, and also rule out any medical causes you can think of,like any itcy conditions on his skin. But the comments about horses just likeing to roll ring very true. If a young horse doesn't have a place to roll and finds itself in nice deep sand, it might be just too much to resist. I've been riding on the trail on young horses, and have suddenly seen the ground getting closer to my feet as the horse sinks down to roll. I've had them try it in the water too.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 10:18 am:
Do you use a lunge whip when you work him? What's worked for me is if they try to come in too close, I poke them in the ribs with the pointy end. It's just irritating enough to make them move away.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 10:54 am:
I had similar problems with my 3 year old and it did turn out he was being a butt head. He seemed to get a little attitude that he could go or not when he pleased. I had to MAKE him move away from me on the lunge line. When he DrOpped to have a roll, I had to smack him a bit with the end of the lead line to MAKE him get up. (I also yell at him; he doesn't like noise). My thinking was if he DrOps to roll while the saddle is on, what will stop him from next DrOpping to roll while I am in the saddle. Not a safe situation, so it needed to be stopped. He has plenty of opportunity to roll when he is not in training, but when he is, he needed to learn to behave himself. All it took was a little insistence, and now he never tries to do either anymore. I do think its important to look for health issues, but when you say you had a break in training it makes me think he was enjoying his "vacation" and now he is testing you.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 11:45 am:
This is actually more common than you might think with young horses. Sarah, I have also seen the ground on trail rides as I guess it was just too irresistable. As with all other behavioural problems, check health and tack first. It is more than likely due to the fact that young horses especially don't know any better. If it itches, they want to roll. They do not first consider whether or not they have a saddle on, or for that matter, a rider. We have to teach them that. Generally, as Linda said, a firm get up cue such as tapping with the whip and a firm voice will solve problem afer only a couple of times. It is important to be proactive and anticipate the attempt to lay down and stop it before it happens. I have had only one severe case that wanted to do this consistently on the trail. The last time she did this, I felt it coming, got off and held her down so she could not get back up for as long as I could. That was 3 years ago and she has never attempted again. I don't know that I would recommend this as it could be dangerous, but as a last resort, it certainly proved successful. As I said, generally once they understand we don't want them to do this they will quit.
DT
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 1:19 pm:
My friend has a teenage horse that whenever he reaches a certain point on a particular a trail, he will lay down to roll. Unfortunately she's a pretty passive rider and at first let him get away with it but finally put an end to it but he still tries it. It's a nice sandy spot with a natural hollow. Just can't resist.
My husband had a horse that used to rear until one time he did and slipped and fell to the side. My husband leaped clear and than flopped on the horse's head to keep him from getting up. He held him down for a while and afterward never reared again.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 6:26 pm:
thanks everyone for your input. Levi is a spoiled rotten brat, so I would lean towards the "I don't wanna work" attitude. He is actually a rather lazy horse. He has plenty of places to roll, I also often times forget to close the round pen gate, so they get in and roll in the sand. I am just going to have to get more assertive with him. I only wish I was taller  I am 5'1" and he is a monster. But I know some little jack russell terriers and yorkies that can take on the big dogs around here, so I just have to get the same attitude I have with the dogs I train. How's your business going Dennis??
thanks again
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 6:28 pm:
P.S. He is doing this without the saddle on, so I don't think it is the tack.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2004 - 1:35 am:
Susan, I believe Dennis is 100% right.
A horse is very vulnerable when rolling and I do not think they would ever expose themselves in such a way just to get on your nerves or to object our directions and start a fight.
He's just too comfortable with you, which, to him, is a good reason to stay close to you rather than on the other end of the line, and occasionally have a good roll while his good friend keeps an eye for him.
Just annoy him when he's upside down. Stinging him on the belly with the longe whip a couple of times should do it. Kneeling on his neck to keep him down will also work, as Dennis says, but I think 5'1" is too light to actually wrestle with a big horse.
I would try to get just the rolling out of his mind. The kneeling and sitting down is a neat trick, you may try to isolate it and connect it with a cue for future use...
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2004 - 6:01 pm:
Thanks Christos, he is very trusting of our relationship, If he is laying down in the sun, I can walk right up to him, sit down by his head, and he just lays there. This is of course satisfying and a cause for training problems, but we continue to work on it. I just wish the weather here would cooperate, it is either raining, or hot and muggy, so I can not seem to get on a consistent training program. But thanks to all for your support in my novice attempt at training a youngster
suz
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 9:11 am:
Susan .... Thanks for asking. I am taking your advice and starting slow and reinvesting back into the business. I have a few students now taking riding lessons which have been well recieved. I also have 4 outside horses I am curretnly training. That is really about all I can handle at one time and still work for living .... but maybe some day ... huh. My # 1 goal is a small indoor facility so I can train and give lessons year round. One step at a time, right.
DT
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 12:22 pm:
Susan,
Having not seen your horse and what he is doing. But, make sure he has lots of free lunge line so he can move away from you then direct your energy at his shoulder. Some horses become very sensitive to the weight of the rope, especially when using rope halters and we inadvertently pull the horse right into us. I’ve seen many people do this and they have no idea why their horse is turning.
I’m working with an Arabian stallion that just picking up the loop in the rope will turn him into you. If I do more than pick up the weight of the rope it confuses him and when he gets confused he will turn his butt towards you and backup till he is standing right beside you with his shoulder barely touching you. It is where he feels safe. It will scare the hell out of you if you don’t know the horse!
As for rolling, I agree, it is very common and natural. But, essentially he is ignoring your cue to move forward. Just reinforce your cue should resolve the problem.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 11:28 pm:
Thanks Alden for the advice. He does perfect on free wheeling in the round pen, whoas, walks, trots and canters on verbal command. It is like the longe line confuses him, or he does not like the control issue. I can't be sure. I give him plenty of rope, and try to walk back towards his hind end, he just spins his silly head around to me, and circles closely around me. I did finally take the loose center of the longe line and whap him on the neck continuously till he stepped out and away, he then reluctantly moved out and proceeded to walk trot, walk and whoa nicely. When we turned to go in the other direction, it started all over again. YIKES! It can be frustrating. But small victories are a nice paycheck for consistent work.
thanks and have a great day
suz
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 7:56 am:
Susan ... I noticed in your last post that you say you are working toward the back end when longeing. This would actually tell him to move his hind end and circle to face you. I always work from the head neck area to send away when longeing. When you move back to the hind, you are asking to release the rear. Perhaps he is doing what he thinks you are asking and then getting confused when not rewarded. Also, a common aspect of approaching the hind is to pull a little on the rope thus turning the head in. As Alden stated, if your horse is very sensitive, it does not take much pull, just eliminating the slack and he will respond. Work on sending the neck and shoulders away instead of the rear, and I think you will see immediate results.
DT
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 10:46 pm:
Thanks Dennis. I took Levi out this evening and worked with him. I definately decided he is not being confused he is being a disrespectful little brat. Can you tell we did not have a good session. He tucked his head down, took off running, turned his butt to me and bucked. I just sent him off and would not let him stop till he was a huffing and a puffing. Then we switched directions and he tried it again, but only for a brief few minutes. We ended on a good note. Walking, backing on lead. It just made me realize that I need to send the boy off for some training. I called a gal that has 200 acres to ride on, streams, hills, lots of timber. She seemed very nice, and understood my concerns with being sure to get my "pet" back as well as a horse familiar with the trails. Now I just have to get myself ok with sending him off. She asked me if I wanted to have her work on training him with hobbles? She said she had a horse that had been nicely and patiently trained to hobble, and he had gotten caught in a barb wire fence,and instead of panicing, he stood quietly till released. What is any of you all's opinions on hobbling??? don't know much about it.
thanks
suz
p.s. If I had not fractured my back about 18 years ago, after being bucked off a TB, I would not be such a weenie, but age brings either wisdom, or caution.
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