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Discussion on CAIR Panels
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 12:12 pm:
I plan to purchase a Wintec Pro Endurance, but after some of the things I've read here, I'm thinking of passing on the CAIR panels and getting regular ones. 
Input, anyone? Please! 
Suzy
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 5:52 pm:
I also am thinking of buying an (used) Wintec Pro Endurance.
So what have you heard about the cair panels? this saddle has cair panels, but not the interchangeable gullet. I have the saddle now, but haven't had a chance to try it on any of our horses, and planned on posting under the Wintec Saddle postings but this caught my eye.
Love to know what I am getting into, looks like a great saddle.
Angie
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 11:05 pm:
Hi Angie ~ Well, there have been posts on this site from folks who have had very bad experiences with the CAIR panels (run a search on CAIR), so I was just wondering what the majority of users think. My horse is still pretty green, and I sure don't want to do anything to start him out thinking riding is no fun!
I plan to get the interchangeable gullet system because I know his back will change, but I'm worried about the CAIR thing. 
Suzy
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 7:13 am:
OOPS, just to clarify this saddle is a Pro Stock Saddle, not endurance.
Thanks, I'll do the search later.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 7:49 am:
Hi,
It depends on if this saddle will be used for only one horse. If thats the case wool flocking is best. It will conform to your horses back. If the saddle will be used on a few different I would go for cair. I have a cair. There is a very slight ridge where the 2 air panels meet which was causing a problem for my horse. He is very sensative. I use a pure wool pad to alleviate this problem. With the wool pad he loves the saddle. Personally I would have bought the wool had I known . But the cair works with a great pad.
Katrina
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 11:45 am:
Thanks so much for relating your experience, Katrina. My saddle will be used on only one horse, and since he's still pretty green, his back could well be sensitive too.
I will most likely get the wool. I do not like taking any chances.
Suzy
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 31, 2004 - 7:21 pm:
Anyone know how you tell if a saddle actually has the CAIR panels? I'm looking at a used one that I like. Seller believes it has CAIR panels, but my saddle fitter found flocking and wondered if it really had CAIR. I don't see "CAIR" anywhere on the saddle. How do you tell?
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2004 - 1:07 am:
It seems to me that there ought to be something on the outside of the saddle specifying that it has CAIR. Ah, but what do I know? 
Maybe you can tell by the feel?
BTW, I ordered my saddle with the wool flocking.
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2004 - 4:29 pm:
I agree, but this one doesn't have any helpful labels. Just a stock or serial number that I don't know how to look into. I guess I could go look at one in a store that for sure has CAIR to see it it's labelled. Anyone out there have a saddle with CAIR? Are they labelled anywhere?
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 2004 - 2:26 pm:
Hello all. I am strongly considering the Wintec Pro Endurance for my mare. Dr. O gave it such a strong endorsement! My husband gave me a "new saddle of my choice" for my horse, and it is time I cashed in. The store that would order it for me can order it either with wool flocking or with the CAIR panels. The salesperson suggested the CAIR panels ($100 more in price). The store also does saddle fitting (but it will be long drive to take my horse to the store). I am a little concerned because of some of the posts I saw that did not like the CAIR panels. Another store nearby has Wintec saddles (but not the Pro Endurance). I felt the CAIR panels and thought they were rather stiff and unfogiving.
So, I would like to hear experiences (pro or con) for the CAIR panel system. This saddle is not cheap (for a synthetic).
Thanks in advance for any feedback,
Lilo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 8:12 am:
Hello Liselotte,
I do not use the CAIR panels. My saddle manages to fit both large wide TWH's and smaller Pasos but when I look at it all our horses have fairly broad backs.
DrO
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 1:34 pm:
Thanks for your response, Dr.O. I am leaning toward not ordering the CAIR panels at this time. The saddle will have the adjustable gullet.
My mare is not really broadbacked - however, she has very high withers, more prominent now that she is getting older and I am trying to control her weight. That is always a challenge with her - she is such an easy keeper.
Anyone else have experience with the CAIR panels?
Thanks,
Lilo
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Member:
Lisamg
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 2:55 pm:
All;
I have 2 Wintec Isabel Dressage Saddles. Liked the first one I bought so much ... I bought another one. They both have the interchangeable gullets, which are really nice ... but a pain to change. I have one horse that requires the med narrow gullet and all the others use the medium.
(that's really why I bought the second saddle ... now I don't have to keep changing back and forth).
I do distance riding (endurance & competitive) and I prefer the dressage saddle to the pro endurance ... mainly because I like my legs to be where they should be. I still prefer to be balanced over a lot of rings to attach things. I also prefer the deeper seat of the Isabel saddle. (It's also lighter than the pro endurance saddle). I can use the dressage saddle because I am a featherweight rider, I wouldn't suggest this for a middle or heavyweight rider.
As for the CAIR panels:
I too had the option to buy the CAIR saddle. I chose not to because these panels are basically filled with air. What if you got a "flat"?? It's certainly possible when riding endurance and being far away from help would make this a very bad situation. (i.e. you would be on foot) Besides the CAIR panels were new when I was purchasing my first Isabel saddle.
I have been very happy with my wool flocked saddles. They've held up well under a LOT of miles.
I do know several people who use the Wintec Pro Endurance and are happy with it too. I don't know anyone who uses a Wintec with the CAIR panels.
Sounds like I'm glad I didn't get the CAIR panels from the previous postings.
Good Luck
Lisa
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 4:56 pm:
I have a Wintec 2000 with the CAIR panels and am very happy with it. The air pockets are in addition to traditional wool flocking and are wedged between wool if I remember right. I haven't had any problem with a ridge bothering them. I like the adjustable gullet although it is hard to change. I think there is a place on the saddle that says it has CAIR panels-- I will check when I get home. I talked to a person from a tack store who know one person who had a flat CAIR panel when they first came out and the company replaced it. The ride isn't really any different from traditional flocking to me but is supposed to absorb minor shifts in weight changes. I always ride bareback when I can so I only ride in a saddle occasionally, but it is very comfortable when I have to use the saddle. Is there any way you can try out a friend's saddle or get a loner so you can see if you like it? Good Luck Gail
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 2004 - 6:53 pm:
Hi, I have the wintec 2000 with cair. The gullets get easier to change after a few times it becomes a 5 minute job. I do wish I had bought the wool flocking as my saddle did irritate my horses back. The wool adjusts better to your horses back) as long as he is finished growing) The cair is good for horses that will change shape or for multiple horses. I dont rcomend it for endurance or long distance riding as I have found that my cair has a small pressure point where the 2 air panels meet on each side. You can feel if the saddle has it by rubbing your hand over where the two panels meet. I Purchased a sheepskin and a saddle right pad to aleaviate some of this problem on my horse. He is fine with it now. It really depends on what the saddle will be used for. If its for One horse get wool flocking. endurance or long distance riding get wool flocking. A horse that will change shape dramaticly or multiple horses get cair. Thats my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps Katrina
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 2004 - 10:15 am:
Thanks to all of you for your feedback. I will give the matter some more thought. This would be a saddle for one horse only - so, wool flocking sounds like the way to go. While I am not an endurance rider, I hope to go on long trails next year (am retiring from a full-time job).
However, I am now debating between a dressage type saddle versus the endurance. The saddles I saw that were advertising CAIR panels did not have wool flocking.
I read the endorsement by Janette Oglesby for the Dover's Pro Ride Gel Seat Dressage saddle. I would not be clever enough to rig it for attaching saddle bags, but a saddler could probably do it. Most of the time I use my western saddle just because I can tie so much stuff on it. But, I have the suspicion that it does not fit well.
First step will be to get someone to evaluate the saddles I have.
Thanks again to all of you for your feedback. It is really appreciated!
Lilo
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Member:
Lisamg
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Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 2004 - 3:43 pm:
Liselotte;
I use the dressage saddle (and remember I do ride in endurance rides). I compensate for not having the extra rings by using a trail pad that I have attached extra rings to. Anything light (like a jacket or rump rug)or dry sponge I attach to the saddle pad. Anything heavy, like water bottles, I have in my cantle bag which attaches to the back of the saddle via straps that go around the girth billets. This cantle bag stays snug against the saddle and does not bounce. If your interested I can give you the brand name. Works well for me.
I know the Wintec Isabel Werth saddle, like I use, definitley comes with wool flocking. Although lately I've seen a lot of them with the CAIR panels. You might check e-bay if you know exactly what you want. I bought my second saddle new that way and got it a good bit cheaper than through tack stores.
I have been riding (in endurance) in Wintec saddles since approx. 1990 and have only good things to say about them. However, like any other saddle... eventually the wool flocking needs replaced/reshaped. Finding someone to do that on a Wintec is not easy although not impossible.
Good Luck!
Lisa
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 2004 - 5:44 pm:
On one of my horses I noticed a "gooshing" sound from the cair panels. It freaked her out when she heard it!!! She's got a slight swayed back, and her rump is higher than her withers, so it's not a perfect fit. I have to put it back a ways to fit right. The sound was at the canter only, when I wasn't in time with her. The sound is there on other horses too, but not as noticeable. Maybe the right pad under the saddle changed that too; I haven't rode for awhile but that's what I remember as being weird when I first got the saddle used a few months back.
As I said in an earlier post I have the Wintec Pro Stock, the Aussie Wintec. I do like the saddle over all.
Angie
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 2004 - 7:56 pm:
Lisa and Angie - thanks for sharing your experiences. A "gooshing" sound - that is interesting. Lisa - I would like to know about that cantle bag. It could just be that my old dressage saddle will become my trail saddle - all depends on the saddle fitting.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Lilo
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 2004 - 6:28 pm:
I have a Wintec Pro dressage saddle with wool flocked panels...not the CAIR. I like it a lot. Nice thing is that it can be restuffed. My saddle fitter had no problem with it...sharon
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 4:02 am:
Hi, I have had a saddle with CAIR and it was the worst saddle my horse has ever had - now this is just MY experience. My horse did have a sensitive back but this made him so sore he nearly sat down when I touched his back. Whether this was due to the CAIR itself or the fact that the saddle was not a good fit (it was fitted by a qualified saddle fitter!) I don't know, but it has put me off CAIR for life!
I prefer the FLAIR system - it is still air panels, but much, much softer and adjustable. Don't know if you folks have it in the US, here in the UK you can have it inserted into most saddles.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 7, 2004 - 10:47 am:
Thank you all for sharing your experiences. I realize every horse and every situation is different, but it is great to get this kind of feedback.
Lisa, I found an "English Rear Stowaway" cantle bag advertised in the "Back in the Saddle" catalog. Is that what you are using? It costs $69.95 in this catalog.
I just printed out this entire discussion so I can re-read it.
Thanks,
Lilo
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Member:
Lisamg
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Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 6:03 pm:
Liselotte:
No, actually the cantle bag I'm using is supposed to be for a western saddle. However, my dressage saddle has a ridge where the panels flare out. (don't know if I'm explaining this too well). But the ridge is just enough to keep the cantle bag where it's supposed to be. (i.e. attached to the saddle and not sitting directly on the horse's back). I do always check before remounting to make sure it hasn't ridden under the saddle panels as when my horses put their heads down to graze it lifts the back of the saddle up. But I never have any problems while actually riding with it.
The cantle bag comes with two water bottles, one on each side for balance, and has a lot of different sections to keep things seperate. It has two straps that go around the middle of the bag which I attach to some added D rings on my saddle for extra security. You can also put a jacket under these straps and tighten them down too. I just checked and they have one similar (if not the same one) on the Long Riders Gear web site. It's called a stowaway western cantle bag. Comes in a bunch of colors. Don't be put off by the picture on the web site. The pack in the picture is really stuffed full. I usually don't carry that much stuff on an actual ride so mine is not so "puffy". Looks like they are marked down ....hmmm maybe I should buy another one. They were $55 and are now listed as $49.50. My husband uses the same cantle bag on his calvary style endurance saddle and it works well there too.
Hope that works for you.
Lisa
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 9:48 pm:
If you want to add "rings and strings" to an English saddle, Cashel has a product called "Tie One On." It's a small pad to fit under the saddle and it has D-rings and saddle strings. I attach small nylon saddle bags (about 4x6x8") one on each side behind the saddle.
They also offer an ankle-safe for your cell phone, etc., just in case you and your horse get, um, separated.
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Member:
Lisamg
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2004 - 10:01 am:
Jerre R;
Those ankle safes for cell phones are a good idea. Carrying a cell phone attached to your waist is a good way to get a smashed cell phone and a good bruise when you get "seperated" from your horse. I think the phones have a better chance of surviving on your ankle.
Lisa
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2004 - 1:52 pm:
Lisa, Thanks for the info on the saddlebag. That price is a little better.
Jerre - that is a good idea about the ankle-safe for the cell phone. My old cell is to big for that, but I am in the market for a new one.
Again,
Thanks,
Lilo
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2005 - 10:08 pm:
Just a comment to add about the CAIR panels. I have a certified saddle fitter come to check my horses and saddles who strongly dislikes the CAIR panels, though he recommends the Wintec (or other similar) saddles.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Oct 7, 2005 - 6:40 am:
Why does the saddle fitter not like the CAIR panels?
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Oct 7, 2005 - 12:42 pm:
Good question and I do not recall whether he elaborated other than to say not to get them. Lately it is hard to find these adjustable gullet saddles WITHOUT the CAIR panels. I will send him an E-mail and ask him why he dislikes them and whether there have been any improvements made to them.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Oct 7, 2005 - 8:29 pm:
Certified custom saddle fitter says "I do not think they have improved. It is mostly foam."
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Oct 7, 2005 - 9:56 pm:
So they like wool better than foam... But the CAIR panels are supposed to be comprised of air. hmmmm
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2005 - 8:04 am:
I have a Wintec 2000 with Cair Panels. My horses love it and so do I. I spent $2000.00 on a custom made and fitted saddle for one of my horses who has had some problems and she likes the Wintec with Cair better!
Ella  Ä
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2005 - 7:07 am:
I am glad you said that, Ella. I have that saddle too and am liking it. I got a little nervous when a pro was saying that it wasn't very good. I guess ultimately, if the horse likes it and we can sit in it that is all that matters!
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 13, 2005 - 5:09 pm:
I love my Wintec 2000 with Cair panels and adjustable gullet. It puts my leg in the perfect spot and is very comfortable for me and my horses. My older horse prefers to be ridden bareback, but likes the Wintec when I need to use a saddle. I have never had any of the problems outlined above. And when you get knocked off your horse by a very low branch and fall into a huge slimy mud puddle, you can get back on a Wintec without worrying about ruining a leather saddle. Happy riding.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2005 - 8:10 am:
That's great Gail. So on muddy days it's the Wintec, other days I can ride in leather, huh?
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2005 - 1:18 pm:
I had a wintec pro dressage with the wool stuffing some time ago and it was fine.
I now have a wintec 500 dressage with cair and gullet system that I use to exercise my senior horse and it is also fine.
I also like the webbers, but they squeak when used with the 500, so I would suggest conventional leathers with it.
If you google up the wintec web site, there is a contact email and I found they would answer my questions within a couple of days.
In general, I have found saddle fitters to be lukewarm on saddles that did not need their skill/craft. 
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 - 9:22 pm:
The certified saddle fitting expert I use likes the Wintec saddles very much -- but not the CAIR panels, which he says have lots of "foam" in them. He suggests buying the Wintec saddle with regular flocking. The saddles with regular flocking can be re-flocked as needed, and must wonder how the CAIR panels can be repaired if they get worn. This may not be an issue for people who do not ride the long hours every week that I do.
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