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Discussion on Charges at neighbors visiting horse?
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 15, 2007 - 11:02 pm:
Levi is rather a alpha horse, he is about even with the number 2 horse that is is older than him.
However, my neighbor has been bringing her horse over to use my round pen. Levi will stand on the lead rope ok, but when I put him in the round pen and she brings her horse by the pen, he pins his ears and charges. He tried once to reach over and bite him.
I tried to redirect him into working, which worked for a bit, but when we went into relax mode, he took off charging at him. I had my lunge whip in hand, and whomped him on the chest, as he almost ran me over.
My question is what do I do, was it ok to physically correct him? I hate that he is not friendly, but we don't get out much, and it was his space. He did this with Clyde when we first brought him on board. It took a month of seperating, and then they were friends and playmates. Clyde would still show up with bite marks on him though.
I took him back out of the round pen, and let the neighbor zoom her horse around the round pen, while we stood close by and watched. Although he was apprehensive, as her horse ran by, he stood by and behaved.
Is this normal, for him on his space, as it is in dog world???
Should I correct him, or assume this is that herd thing?
My gut says if he is disregarding my safety, I should wallop his butt a bit, so he does not forget I am in his space? I am such a weenie when it comes to correcting him.
Suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 16, 2007 - 7:55 am:
Hi Suz, When he is not with you it may be his space, but when he is.... it is your space.
I can give you an experience that worked WELL with this. My friend brought her alpha mare over to ride with me. I had my horse tied up after a ride and she walked her mare by. Her mare let loose and started kicking Sam while he was tied up and defenseless. My friend still had her on the lead rope when the mare did this and she doesn't put up with any misbehavior that is dangerous or disrespectful of her space.
She took her lead rope and started walloping her in the chest and backing he up as she went, also in a loud voice giving her he$$. I untied Sam and held him while she brought the mare back to him....she put her ears back she got the same treatment. In other words as one of those trainers says ...make him think he is going to die for 3 seconds!
After a couple times of this we let the horses sniff noses...we could tell it was ok then. The horse was fine after that and if she ever looked threatning from that day forward all my friend had to do was raise her voice a little and say no..the ears would go back up.
Hank did the same thing to a mare I had also. The mare was grazing on the end of a lead, I had Hank grazing also after a ride, when out of nowhere he put his head up and charged her, knocked my friend down to get to her. He thought he was going to die for 3 secs...believe me. I'd walk him around the mare and if he even put his ears back he got the same treatment as the mare above...He has never done it again. This can be a dangerous behavior and you need to let him know when he is in YOUR space YOU are the alpha...even in the pasture. Good Luck
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 16, 2007 - 8:26 am:
I second what Diane says.. when you are anywhere in the vicinity of your horse he is NOT number 2 on the totem pole, he is number 3!!! you are ALWAYS number one...and it is not HIS space, it is YOUR space!!!heck, whose name is on the mortgage????
If you allow another horse into the herd than as leader, that is your right.. if Levi doesnt understand this than he doesnt think you are the leader, and you need to correct him of that pronto before he does hurt you...
as a quick fix you need to very firmly correct him the moment he takes his attention off you - and if that means wallop his butt becausen he is about to injure you than so be it... you are a human female and while i'm guessing here, you probably dont weigh all that much, or have superhuman strength... levi outweighs you and outmuscles you nearly 10:1 i guess... short of using a knife or an iron bar, or punching his eyes out, nothing you do is going to truly hurt the horse... its going to sting, and scare him, and make him THINK he is going to die, but 10 seconds after you stop all that's going to be left is the memory of what you did, not any pain from what you did...so if you have to use physical discipline, dont be so afraid of it... i promise he'll survive...and if he runs over you, he's going to hurt you a whole lot worse, and if he gets to that other horse its going to be a LOT worse...think of it as saving a life or two...
as a caveat tho, if you dont need to actually touch the horse to get his attention, than so much the better.. he'll respect that even more.. if you're on a lead rope you can disengage his hindquarters (a billion times if necessary) or somesuch, or send him around the round pen, but the moment he invades your space and tries to come thru you then you do what you have to to protect yourself...
in the long run you need to reconsider your relationship with this horse.. do you do any natural horsemanship techniques?...he should not be disrespecting you like this at all!...if he sees you as leader he should disregard everthing until you till him otherwise...because that's what he would do in a natural situation....there is time for the pecking order when leader is not in the vicinity...
my pony has frequently been used as babysitter so lots of horses come and go into his space... he is very dominant but very calming...when i put a new horse into his paddock he stands back and waits for me to get done with the horse before he steps in and makes introductions....if they are fighting and i step into the mix, he knows to stop and back off, because as leader, i get first dibs on everything...
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 16, 2007 - 10:58 am:
Hi Suz,
So this is the same horse that is masturbating under saddle (different thread), yes? He is telling you in a lot of horse ways that you are not in control. Seems like in his time off, he has promoted himself to your job. Not only does this make for awkward situations like the ones you have described, it puts you on a collision course with this horse that could get you or him hurt.
Rather than wait for something else/worse to happen, get some help and plan a couple of situations where you can safely sort this out. Make sure you offer him a chance to do the right thing, but be prepared to truly solve the problem if he does not. Get some qualified help if you can-- another set of eyes/hands can make a huge difference.
Good luck.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 16, 2007 - 5:34 pm:
Yes Elizabeth, this is the one with the "stiffy". I know that I just need to stop letting him get away with the little things. I took stock on the behaviors that I let him get away with today. And I am not fearful of him, just have spoiled him rotten. He has been nursed, more than ridden.
I train people to train their dogs, and everything I tell them to do with their alpha dogs, is what I need to make myself do with my alpha horse.
I am going to have my neighbor bring her horse over again tonight, and be ready for him. I would assume I need to start with correcting the ear pinning, just as we correct the erect posturing of the dog, before the growl.
Today he went to grab the hay out of my arms, as I was carrying it to the crib. I just kicked back at him in the chest, like another horse would do. Little things like this I don't pay attention to, and need to.
Will let you all know how we get along.
suz
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 16, 2007 - 9:42 pm:
Suz, you are right that you need to start corecting early, rather than waiting till the bad action starts, but the ear pinning is already halfway into the deal. if you're working with him, his attention should be focused just about entirely on you. Under normal circumstances I allow about 5 seconds of an attention wander IF we are standing still and hanging out, but only then...anything over 5 seconds or an attention wander while we are working and he gets the appropriate correction, which might be something as simple as just snapping my fingers just to get his attention, or slapping the ground or strongly disengaging the hindquarters or somesuch if the horse is really blowing me off... so if you wait for the ear pinning, he's already been blowing you off for a bit...
when you feed, as you said he should stay out of your space till you're ready... i dont generally allow a horse within 10feet of any food that i'm in the vicinity of, because if you watch how the herd leader acts he generally eats alone, and if he moves to a new spot then the other horses move away...if you look closely you'll see that the last warning is the physical - the kick or bite.. long before that point there are warning signs-swish of tail, pinning of ears, tightening of lips, that tell a horse to move away, then swinging of head and other more physical moves, and then if that doesnt work the true kick or bite comes in... if you can get the same response from less of an action you will get more respect from your horse...its like giving him a chance to do it right before you punish him for doing it wrong...
good luck...glad you have a neighbor that will help you out...
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