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Discussion on Rollkur and cruel overbending of the neck
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Member:
mientjie
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 12:07 pm:
I went to watch dressage lessons given my an overseas instructor yesterday. She come about every 4 months to give lessons. She is supposed to be an excellent rider and doing very well in Grand Prix.
She rode one of the horses, an imported warmblood gelding that is doing extremely well. She rode him for an hour and the whole time his nose was being pulled onto his chest. It was so bad that he started wheezing because he could barely breath. My instructor said this is a great way to make the horse supple and making him work through his back. I totally disagree!!!!! I found out that this is the Rollkur method. What do you think of this?! Here is a link that shows that harm it does to the horses: https://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/how.php
Another method my instructor wants be to do is to bend Amanda's neck to the side (her nose nearly touching my foot) in a trot!! Like this:
The above website also talks about this. What should I do? I do not want to hurt my horse in any way.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 1:57 pm:
Yank and spank is the above picture or what i call it.. If you don't like your instructor's instruction.. find another one.. I don't like forced ''connection'' either..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 2:17 pm:
Hyperflexion...and you're right, not good for the horses. Honestly, I can see me doing it for a MOMENT, but nothing more than a moment, and that is only if my safety is at risk.
You are a very nice rider and your horse is wonderful, I too suggest another trainer.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 2:18 pm:
Animals don't learn well with forced methods that don't give them releases as rewards. Attitude problems will result in explosive behaviour, or they will just die in their spirits and become shells.
Always, when your heart is giving you warnings, then educate yourself as best as you can, and FOLLOW YOUR HEART. Do not override with your mind or with fear what you know in your heart is true. That goes for horse handling, human relationships, and other personal decisions.
Good for you for listening to your conscience. Courage and grace to you, Lea-Anne, as you make your choices in this issue and in the many others to come over time.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 2:47 pm:
Holly , exactley ! The rider should always reflect the glory and beauty of the horse and that NEVER comes with fear and intimidation! If it takes strong arm methods to achieve what is desired then shame on the person for they are a bully nothing more! Cindy
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 2:53 pm:
Hi Lea-Anne,
Your instincts are right on. I'm a student of dressage as well, and there are trainers out there who will help you and your horse become gymnastic partners w/o cruel and unproductive shortcuts. Dressage is not about bullying and exhausting your horse into sad compliance-- ideally it develops a disciplined brilliance through patient instruction of horse with rider.
This "method" is just horrible-- the horses can't breathe and they can't see where they are going. It's about quick ribbons from lax judges, and I think it's popular because a lot of dressage riders choose the sport because they are afraid of their horses, and think it's ok in this sport to coerce them in the mouth. RANT! RAVE!
Where do you live? Let's find you a good trainer to help your great instincts!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 2:54 pm:
lea Ann,
if you do a search on this subject you'll see its been discussed quite a bit... there was quite a discussion on it last year, tho it may have been erased from the board because it did get a bit heated after awhile i think...
personally if i'm riding a horse long and low i dont worry in particular if my horse becomes overbent, occasionally...i never allow a horse to become overbent once i actually start to put him together and do some real work...
i'm not a fan of much sideways flexing...
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 3:07 pm:
Melissa,
Just to be clear in my rave-- the rollkur is a forced, dramatic overflexion in conjunction with strong forward aids. That's what I'm ranting against. Lots of horses tend to "curl" behind the vertical in warm-up or even in work, and it can take a lot of time to work them out of that once learned. Not the same thing, in my opinion.
The only comparable move to rollkur I've seen under a western saddle was a boarder who used to gallop her horse into a one hand stop where she'd jerk his head to her knee from the gallop. Amazingly, the horse learned to DrOp his outside shoulder (away from her hand) and pitch her on the ground even as she pulled his head around.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 3:18 pm:
Lea-Anne, Read, re-read, and copy what Holly has written and keep it someplace where you can look at it when you need to make decisions. She has given you a piece of advice that will serve you all your life. Many times this piece of advice will save you a lot of regret as you travel through life. We're all very proud of you and your lovely horse! Just imagine all of us standing at your shoulder as you stand up to this "trainer". You go girl!!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 4:06 pm:
I remember this discussion from before; and I got to thinking that some of Clinton Anderson's methods were too harsh for my tastes. Sitting and asking for a give to the side is one thing; doing that at a trot I think, can result in something like the picture above if folks don't know any better.
I don't care if my horses look "dressage" trained or not, I am in this for fun! I'd probably punch someone if I found them working one of my horses like that!
It's too bad that people train with only the goal of "winning'...instead of long term health, happiness and soundness of their horses. And it's training like that which gives dressage a bad taste for some of us (sorry, but I have never gotten over those nice little straps for keeping the mouth shut...to me, it's like "Huh?, if the mouth is open, maybe you are pulling on the mouth?")
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 4:51 pm:
Angie you brought up a fond memory..When I first started working at an event barn, I made friends with a lot of the boarders. This one lady would practice so much on her horse and just couldn't get the "collected" canter the way she wanted it. She always rode the horse with a figure 8 noseband with his mouth tied shut basically.
One day after a grueling lesson I asked her why she had that nose band on and his mouth tied shut. (Being western I had never seen it) Her ans. was I don't know! The trainer was standing there...so she asked him why, he said so he can't evade the bit...hmmm. Me being the shy one I am had to ask then that truly isn't being "soft" the way you preach, and maybe a little cruel. (he really was a "soft" and talented rider/trainer).
He told me that when you are in shows it is expected that they where this. Of course I had to ask why. He said because everybody did???? and if a rider could get that kind of collection without one they would no doubt win....it still confuses me you would think they would WANT to achieve that kinda of collection without it....or maybe it isn't possible??? I think it is, I have seen it.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 5:27 pm:
Lea-Anne, Remember Matinee the beautiful grey mare that loves to dance on air! That is what everyone one should reach for, one of the best rides I've ever seen! Cindy
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 5:46 pm:
Hi all,
I have not ridden or shown dressage seriously in 40 some years. However, when I ride my horse in a snaffle bit I use a flash noseband. A properly adjusted noseband over a properly adjusted snaffle bit is not the same as "tying" the mouth shut. My mare accepts the western bridle and bit and the english bridle (with noseband) and bit equally well and does not try to open her mouth in either.
I was taught to adjust the noseband (DrOpped noseband or flash noseband) so I could easily place two fingers between it and the horse (a little more than 1 inch of clearance).
I have read in some texts (probably one of the magazines I subscribe to) that one could use a noseband keep a horse from opening its mouth, but that is not how I was taught.
Now to the Roll Kur and the overbending to the side. I can't find anything like that in any classical text on dressage. Clinton Anderson is extremely fond of bending to the side (famous quote: lateral flexion comes before vertical flexion) - I believe he is overdoing it.
In Parelli we were taught to bend the horses necks to the side and back toward the girth by softly combing the rope (attached to the halter). Other people promote "carrot" stretches. Both to the side and, by holding the carrot between the front legs, down and back.
This does not bother me (any horse can reach his flank when a fly bothers him). Frank Bell also likes to have the horse bring its head around to the girth in his bonding exercise. I think those stretches are good, and if a horse resists them, it may point to some stiffness or pain somewhere.
Just my humble opinion,
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 6:20 pm:
Lilo what is the purpose of the nose band? If it isn't to keep the horses mouth closed? I'm not trying to be a smart A$$ just really curious. Is it too help make them accept the bit without "playing" with it? kinda like a roller on a western bit? Thanks
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 6:38 pm:
replaced by edited version. could not delete.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 6:48 pm:
In Udo Bürger's The Way to Perfect Horsemanship he says that the original purpose of the noseband was to keep warhorses from breaking their jaws if they fell on their heads in a charge.
They are used now to prevent a horse from learning the evasion of opening his or her mouth in collection. This evasion is not (only) to avoid bit pressure, but to escape a demanding frame.
They also can stabilize certain kinds of bits from sliding around from side to side. I've noticed the french link snaffles can do that on some horses.
FEI rules require they be worn in a show-- don't know why. At that level of training, you'd think they were unnecessary.
They should never prevent the horse from chewing, swallowing etc. though some bits do apparently interfere with swallowing (including curbs, if I remember the research correctly, which I may not).
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 7:05 pm:
Thanks Elizabeth . That is basically what the trainer said... I guess I can understand the not learning to...by not letting it happen in the first place. You would think there would come a time when not needed. Thank you, always learning something.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 7:29 pm:
My understanding of lateral flexion at all gaits is not that it is to hold a horse in position, but is a way of asking for the horse's attention and focus on the rider at every gait, as well as to help the horse stay flexible at all gaits.
The difference I see between the Rolkur and the "giving to the bit" used by some of the NH trainers is that the horse's head isn't pulledto the side, but the slack is taken out of the rein and the horse is "asked" to give to the side and is asked to stay there until the HORSE puts slack back into the rein, at which time, the rein is released back to the horse. Yes, Clinton does have an exercise in which the horse is asked to stay bent at a trot, but it is a progressive exercise in which the horse's nose isn't "held" to the side, but is asked as many times as necessary and released at every correct "give" until the horse will stay in a bend at the walk or trot on a loose rein until the rider asks for "straight" or "change direction."
I have seen great benefits in asking for gives at the different gaits because it keeps my horse conscious of my presence and obedient to my direction as "driver." It isn't a holding, but an "asking," and the horses are asked to do it at the trot until they are solid at giving to the lift of the rein or the sight of the rider's hand sliding down the rein at the stand still and walk.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 9:05 pm:
I asked a dressage instructor about the noseband once and she said it was to keep the mouth shut. I, being a "why" kind of gal, asked more questions and I didn't get much more of an answer but she told me it isn't any different than a curb chain on a western horse, the curb chain was worse in her opinion. I took it to mean that she thought the curb chain was harsh.
Like said above, at higher levels of training, why would you need the noseband? I think maybe it's just one of those things that are done a certain way because they always have been done that way.
I am not a dressage or show rider, so just trying to understand and if someone can convince me of something, than I am grateful for the help. I guess I can see it stabilizing the bit.
Holly,
Just to clarify, I understand what you are saying with the "give"...what I meant is some people might take it to the extreme like the picture above if they don't understand the whole "program". I think I over did it while learning...it's all part of the experience. Maybe I am still not light enough with my asking, or quick enough with the release. I whole heartly agree with the benefits of the gives at different gaits. In fact, rode 2 horses tonight, just wanted to enjoy the evening and ride..and boy, they both needed a refresher in those little gives! Lots of pep in the cool fall air!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 9:21 pm:
Actually in dressage, the lateral flexion is through the whole horse (as in the half pass); it's not useful in that sport to "break" the energy at the withers by bringing the horse's head around. The point of riding "through" is to get a constant (not rigid) connection from that motor behind, over the topline, and into the contact. As they get stronger, they carry most of that energy behind and lighten the contact, but there is no movement even in training that intends to disconnect the horse at the withers.
Cranking the head back into a false frame also disconnects that energy, even though the outline is different than rollkur. One more reason I don't understand why these fancy international riders are doing/teaching it. Guess that explains why I'm not an Olympian.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 24, 2007 - 12:50 pm:
I would point out, too, that rollkur is not accepted standard practice. It has been highly controversial in the dressage world since one or two top riders started advocating it a few years back. Many, many top riders/trainers do not agree with the practice and the FEI is considering banning it.
I think, like in many horse sports, when one big (winning)name advocates something, too many people are all too eager to jump on the bandwagon without considering the implications. Sad, but true probably in any sport.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Sep 24, 2007 - 6:00 pm:
Diane,
I think the noseband (the lower part on the flash - I don't see the DrOpped noseband much anymore) does help keep the bit in position in the mouth. If a horse is fighting the bit, because of the rider's hands for instance, you will know it, noseband or not. If the horse is accepting of the bit and softly chewing it, you can tell.
I have seen trailriders that use snaffles, but use a leather piece underneath (similar to the curbchain) going from one ring of the snaffle to the other, to prevent the snaffle from being pulled through the mouth - for instance if you are doing a one-rein stop. Now - the one-rein stop is also something I was never taught in the past. With a run-away horse, we were taught to find an open area (which is not always easy) and start the horse on a large circle, gradually making the circle smaller and smaller until you can get the horse to stop. If you use a full-cheek snaffle, there is no problem with pulling the bit through the mouth.
Holly - that was a good description of "giving to the bit" as advocated by Clinton Anderson. It is somewhat similar to the "half halt" - a brief moment of increased collection to let the horse know if a change in gait or direction is coming up, or just to get its attention back.
I actually flex my horses to both sides just before heading out, often in conjunction with yielding the hindquarters. But, I have seen episodes with Clinton riding were he keeps the horse so very bent to the inside - to me it seems like overdoing it. (Sorry, that is just how I feel about it).
My problem is - I like a lot of the NH stuff, but I can't forget my roots.
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 25, 2007 - 8:09 am:
Lilo,
I agree with your thoughts on CA overdoing it. I think he tends to yank while he's yakking. Yank, yak, not ask, release, lol!
I read somewheres that we should move our horses heads from side to side, but it wasn't like he does. It was more like just loosing the head/neck joint. Like if we did head rolls, shoulder shrugs to loosen tension in our neck.
If anyone knows what I am referring to, please jump in! I liked it when I read it, seemed to make a lot of sense. It's probably printed out here, in one of my piles to be filed...I'll keep looking. (that last part was typed with my head under 6" of paper!)}
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Member:
boomer
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2007 - 12:20 pm:
Not to turn this into a thread about CA, but I have to totally agree about CA! I can't stand to watch his video's. All he does is yank his horses head from side to side. It's just ridiculous, does he know how to do anything else? I have always thought the nose band was to keep the horses mouth closed and for looks.
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Member:
mientjie
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 30, 2007 - 6:26 am:
Sorry I'm only replying now, things are very hectic with my exams coming up.
Thank you so much for your replies. I've stopped lessons with my instructor. I'm not going do hurt my horse just because she believes in this method. I might start lessons with a previous instructor again later this year. Can't wait!!! He is the top dressage rider in South Africa and I really like his methods.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 30, 2007 - 10:12 am:
Finally just read this post this morning. Really interesting opinions here!
As for that low tight noseband being required in dressage--weird, isn't it, that at upper levels there are so many equipment requirements, starting with the bit itself!
As Angie said, it seems like the more trained and harmonious the team, the LESS equipment would be necessary. It seems like they should go with less rather than more, maybe even bridle-less!
My young mare, Cleo, was doing fine with the trainer's recommendation of bit, martingale, noseband, saddle, etc.--all normal equipment, right? But when my son broke his leg and I had less time to ride, the tack went first. Lately I have been taking Cleo out with just her bitless bridle. We go get the mail bareback and tour the neighborhood. She now looks for me to bring the bridle out to her, we don't even use the halter to catch her. She shoves her nose into the bitless bridle and off we go!
She has never been happier or more forward, and all signs of reluctance and resistance are gone. (And I am becoming a better rider for doing all this bareback again--something I have done much since I was a teenager! )
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 30, 2007 - 2:39 pm:
Erm, just want to be a bit of a devil's advocate here. I am a great believer in getting lessons from lots of different people because you learn something different from each one, and piece it together into your own methods.
Last Friday I had a lesson from a girl I used to ride in competition with, but who in the last 10 years has done very well (e.g was placed in our national dressage championships last week) and now instructs in flatwork.
My mare is old and stiff and evades on the right rein by going out through the shoulder. When she goes properly she has beautiful warmblood movement but it takes a good 45 minutes to get her to work in any kind of self-carriage (too long for a normal one hour lesson).
This girl got cranky with us immediately, got up on the mare herself, dragged her head down, booted her in the ribs, gave me a lecture on how if the horse is not straight it is like a tube of toothpaste with a kink in, the energy cannot come out however much horse and rider try.
What I saw watching her was my poor mare resenting the treatment she was getting, and the result was the usual above and behind the bit stuff that as a swan-necker, she is expert at. I felt the trainer was being too rough and forcing her head in very tight and overbent.
BUT she did then go much better. I have been allowing her away with evasions that I should not have been. My problem is that I think yank and spank is a shortcut which does not work on a day to day basis as Holly comments. My mare has no malice in her whatsoever but I think she would actually dump someone who schooled her like that every day.
I re-learned how to use outside leg and rein to move the shoulders in and straight. This was a good thing. I also realised sometimes I let her off with too much because, well, we're both old and stiff. I don't agree with Rollkur as such (I'm not suggesting this is exactly what the trainer was attempting) but I don't think that this trainer was really wrong, just that it won't work on a daily basis and I would rather work the horse in properly and have her come down into the right frame naturally.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 6:42 am:
One thing that my trainer/mentor reminds me of often, is try to keep everything in balance. When things get out of balance, that is when problems seem to arise.
Imogen, in your case, I think yes as a training aide your mare responded well. But you are not going to apply such a philosophy to your entire training program, right?
I just think that anything extreme is concerning in ANYTHING, including horses.
Have you guys seen this?
https://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforu...=22151&t=22151
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 9:05 am:
I have avoided this thread until now... I feel I have to comment because I am seeing long and low, riding deep and rollkur all being considered the same thing. They are NOT.
To me, the picture above is riding deep, not rollkur. Ok I think riding deep is dangerous and not something for anyone to try unless they are HUGELY talented. (And 95% of us are not talented enough to do this.)
Here is what I think is a better picture of Rollkur.
Ick.
Now onto the misconceptions about dressage competition.
- There is NO requirement to use a flash in dressage competition.
- There are NO specific bit requirements for ANY test, though there are restrictions - So FEI says what you CANNOT use.
- That being said, there are requirements for a double bridle after a given level of competition. When I ask judges why this is, they say the curb is needed to get the immediacy of response. They also point out that some riders never use the curb . My experience has been that riders that use the curb constantly are heavily penalized.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 10:00 am:
To be honest, I did not even look at the photos. It makes me sick to think about. However, it created a very heated debate on another website about this specific topic, so I thought it appropriate to share.
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 10:41 am:
Gwen, I know what you mean. My stomach DrOpped when I saw the topic line on HA. (still wincing from the long and low debacle...)
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:05 am:
Ok, I know just enough to know I know nothing. That having been said, I looked at the pix out of curiosity, and had to switch off it as fast as I got to it. It made me most uncomfortable and grateful that I did not pay admission to witness this disgrace. I would not have been at my best in that circumstance. I got a BIG mouth which sometimes is more closely connected to my heart than my head. The horse looks like it is clearly uncomfortable, and unnatural. Neither is acceptable, much less commendable! If the horse is not enjoying what he is doing, someone please tell me what is the point of the exercise??? To show off how much more 'in charge' we are simply because we have upright spines and oppositional thumbs? When does the triple digit IQ kick in??? The rider is in show attire and therefore presenting herself in a proud and hopeful situation expecting to be credited for the hard work she has done to prepare for this exhibition of her past and present abuse. Where are the gatekeepers of the sport????? Are they silent, consenting or impotent? I'm not saying I expect perfection in any sport, but it HAS to be a goal. Goals are good. And this is why you will NEVER find me at a horse race. For me, the excitement and joy of the sport has been bastardized by the greed of the owners in racing the horses too early rather than prepping them for the future race. I don't even like hauling for them, any more than I agree with hauling recipient mares. They both embody, to me, most of what has gone wrong with animal based industries. Sorry if this offends, I do not mean to hijack this thread to the controversial corner, but this struck a raw nerve I was not aware of.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:23 am:
Just to be clear, Cindy, you will rarely see it IN the show ring...some people are using it for training and for warm up, but to actually ride like this in the ring would not win competitions. This is one reason why the FEI is struggling with banning Rollkur...how do you monitor what is being done at home? How could it possibly be enforced? In my opinion, if someone uses the method in a warm up ring, they should be disqualified from the competition...hopefully we will get there at some point soon and then perhaps the practice will start to die out.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:38 am:
"There is NO requirement to use a flash in dressage competition.
- There are NO specific bit requirements for ANY test, though there are restrictions - So FEI says what you CANNOT use."
Cheryl, is that really true that there is NO bit requirement? I was told that my horse had to use a bit in the intro dressage class last year!
We've also had discussion here about bitless bridles not being allowed in the dressage ring.
Set me straight, please.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:48 am:
Interestingly, the trainer in question regarding the picture was given quite a bit of negative feedback. She has since lashed out, saying that she did not realize the apparatus was that tight. She said that once she noticed, she changed the plan. She is blaming the photographer for posting the pictures, and claiming that she is being picked on for an inaccurate portrayal of her methods. However, from what I have read, she is a well-known trainer, who uses the rollkur technique...
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Member:
suzym
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 11:49 am:
Ummm..... How could anyone mistake long and low for Rollkur.....??
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 12:30 pm:
Sorry Erika, you are right. There is a requirement to ride with a bit in dressage competition (you can choose from a number of approved bits).
In some classes, there is a requirement to ride with a double bridle, and again, each of which may be chosen from its respective list of approved bits.
Gwen, (and everybody) I just pulled the first picture of Rollkur I found off the internet - there was no intent to show any specific rider/horse, just the position of the horse's head and neck.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 12:36 pm:
The story was tied to my link, not yours Cheryl.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 1:10 pm:
Did anyone read Isabell Werth's article last month in Dressage Today? It had an interesting article on suppling.....fabulous read.
As for me we stretch the nuchal ligament before riding after we stretch the legs prior to mounting. Keeping the head in front of the shoulders you stand at the horse shoulders with reins in hand and you slightly and softly open and close each hand. The ligament on a relaxed horse will just flop from side to side as you create slight jaw flexion with the bit. The first few times the ligament is tense then it supples......It really is so enjoyable for the horse that they shove their head in your hands once bridled waiting to be stretched.
As for me we practice suppling in lessons one day per week and it is almost like Yoga for the horse and what we do in lessons was described as Rollkur, but it is nothing extreme like described above, so perhaps my American GP instructor (and r judge student) has a different picture in her head about Rollkur but it is never drastic and forced.
After a nice warm up, while on the circle or on the straight we keep a very steady contact and the horse is brought slightly behind the vertical while moving through onto the bit with the aides, and we do lots exercises, like shoulders in on the long, then on the 20 meter, down the long side straight, etc and once again I preface that this behind the vertical is not drastic or to the side as shown above, head always in front of shoulders, always, the bend if any as in shoulder in or on the circle is from the body around the inside leg. Then after a few moments we lengthen the reins and do some exercises while the horse then lengthens, like stretchy circles, over the top line while on the bit, then we take up the contact and come slightly behind the vertical again, and do some of the other exercises. It is not forced EVER. When finished and we go on with the lesson my horse is so relaxed and responsive to the aides. I consider it more of stretching type exercises. Like in yoga we stretch deep into some movements then lengthen doing the opposite movement....it feels incredible and supples all muscles. I see, and Demetrius tells me through his responses what we are doing feels so good to him. When we are done with the exercises and we are standing on a long rein and he is relaxing (usually I am getting some lecture during this time) he is chewing softly at the bit and he is so supple his nuchal ligament flips from side to side and he sighs very happily.
Once again I am never an advocate for any training or tack to be used drastically, including seat, legs, legs, hands, bits, spurs etc. But if what we are doing causes lack of muscle tenseness and increases suppleness that will prevent injury and we will continue. Any athlete should stetch, the equine is no different.
Just another perspective......
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 1:29 pm:
Whoa Nelly....just read the article that Lea Anne posted....opt me out of this one....this could get ugly. I simply know we are doing stretching exercises!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 1:46 pm:
I think this is a great example of how an exercise can be used correctly and incorrectly.
Rol kur is not the only objectionable practice that is misused by riders.
I have seen a local horse made horribly headshy by an amateur trying to practice the yo-yo game without properly understanding the hows and whys.
sad sad
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 4:28 pm:
What is the yo yo game?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 9:34 pm:
No matter where you go with horses and people, you will see someone doing something "extreme" all under the guise of doing what it takes to win. It's like what happens behind closed (stall) doors, or arenas before the event, is meant to stay there out of the public eye.
I sometimes feel humans are the dumb animals here; don't know of any other species that will torture another animal unless it's to kill that animal and have it for lunch!
Corinne,
I read something similar to what you are describing to relax the horses head before riding. I thought is was doing the same thing as CA's mega lateral flexing to the side, only in a very, very subtle fashion!
I love the concept of Yoga for your horse.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2007 - 9:48 pm:
I also want to clarify I do not practice rol kur or want to. I don't understand how it is supposed to be used, on what type of horse, for how long, for what reason one would use it.
So in no way am I qualifed to try to do it.
This is game 3 or 4 in a series, each of which is to be mastered before moving on to the next, this insures the horse is ready for the next step.
In the yo-yo, one uses a 10-12 foot lead line,
facing the horse you begin 'waving' the leadline, slowly increaseing the intensity of the wave, watching carefully for any sign of the horse moving backward. Even a head raising and thinking backward is enough for a release/ceasation of movement. Repeat.
The idea is to get the horse to move backward with only a slight movement on your part.
The second part is then to bring the horse forward with an equally slight movement, a horse that is proficient in this game is very light and responsive. Sounds simple, right?
However, what I see is a person using a leadline with a bull snap, (the bull snap in itself is not the problem) and the person not recognizing the horses effort to understand and move back, the person is usually waiting for a step backwards, (not the horse thinking backward) before they reward. The person thinks the horse doesn't understand so they increase the wave, to the point where the snap is whacking the chin of the horse, well, now the horse just wants to leave any way he can.
And then they decide the horse has a bad attitude.
The game is not the problem, the application was.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 8:56 pm:
Revising an old discussion:
I get an e-mail newsletter from EQUINE SCIENCE UPDATE (a UK publication). This month, there is a very interesting article that explains some research done to test:
#1: Horses' preference or avoidance of Rollkur
#2: Measuring fear response in horses when
they are ridden in Rollkur.
Here is the link. https://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/rollkur2.htmThe subscription to the e-mail is free.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 9:13 pm:
Thanks Holly.
I suppose they designed this test to address the silly Rollkur defense that the horses like it. I wish they'd devised a control group (or re-run the test to see how horses feel about riding in general, or jumping vs. dressage, or...).
I saw a study somewhere recently that questioned the critique that Rollkur forces the horse to travel blind (turns out it does not).
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 10:13 pm:
Very interesting! Thank you Holly for the link! I have not seen Rollkur in real life practice only in literature.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 10:22 pm:
May you never see it, Corinne. Lea-Anne's initial post is enough to make me hope I never do.
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Member:
mientjie
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 11:16 pm:
Great article, thanks Holly. I can assure you that you never want see a horse being ridden in the rollkur way, it's horrible.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 29, 2009 - 10:39 pm:
thanks for the update Holly
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 10:20 am:
In 2007 a book by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann was translated from German to English, "Tug of War: Classical Versus Modern Dressage".
He openly confronts developments in dressage including hyperflexion (previously called Rollkur).
The book is an appeal
Riders to use gentle, progressive training methods,
Judges to sharpen their eyes and recognize unnatural postures and reward correctly gymnasticized horses,
Governing organizations to review their regulations,
Spectators, to reject sensational performances and flashy tests when the methods used to obtain them have not had the health and welfare of the horse in mind.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 10:20 pm:
whew, what a can o worms here, eh? I am not a fan of riding deep or rollkur, I know there are places for their use, but not in my world.
As to the comment about Andreas Helgstrand and Blue Matinee, well she is a lovely mare and bless her little heart she gave it her all. I cannot watch that incredible ride however because to me her tail tells a vastly different story. I just don't think she was truly ready for that level, and to me her tail says so very loudly. It's distracting actually. He is a nice rider, and she is a gorgeous girl, but... I would much rather a slower training program commence with her from the WEG day, and have her show he same in a much more relaxed and easier moving manner. Now that would be truly awesome to witness.
I like the discussion on nosebands. They are historically to prevent the horse form braking it's jaw in a fall. Now they are used to keep the horse's mouth shut or to help hold the bit in place, or simply for fashion. (Crank style with flash) I a old fashioned and I much prefer to use a simple DrOp noseband on my little mare, usually it's very loose to the point of flopping. haha I can place three fingers easily and she goes so nicely. Besides I love how it looks on her small face. ;]
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 10:32 pm:
Sorry forgot, the lateral bend or flexion...
Umm not so sure about bending to your foot, but I do use an occasional bend with Bella to help her relax her neck. It's targeted though to help her release tension only. I can bend her neck in different places while in motion, be it walk or trot. (We don't yet canter much) But again this is something that may be beneficial and should be taught correctly.
Possibly this is along the lines of what your instructor is after? have you asked about this? ;) I m a good (and bad) student, I always want to know 'why', give me the theory behind what we are doing and explain why we are using it now, for what purpose and to what outcome.
When I was taught to use this kind of bending it came with alot of caution. And I was taught to do it correctly both under saddle and on longe.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 10:35 pm:
Ack hit the wrong button. I wanted to also add that the bending I was taught to use is an instant bend only followed by an instant release on the next step. Not pulled and held!!! The photo above is only a moment in time but conveys sustained movement without narration. (I have a video of me on Bella showing a bit of what I was taught somewhere...)
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