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Discussion on 3 year old oldenburg mare balks and cowkicks
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 3:06 pm:
I have been working with a 3 year old mare that was ok for the first 2 weeks under saddle (the honeymoon period, I suppose) but now when I ask her to move forward and trot, she starts kicking out to the left. She pins her ears back, comes to a screeching halt, and the kicks and nappiness begin. When I insist she moves forward she will buck and crowhop all the harder. This keeps happening over and over again, and is getting worse instead of better. I used to compete at mid levels of dressage and have broken in many young horses before and have never had this problem. My hands and legs are soft and I don't think I am asking too much of this mare.
Her teeth have been floated. She has a fat snaffle bit measured to her mouth, no draw reins or side reins to restrict her, she is healthy and going very well on the longe line. Her CBC is normal, she gets plenty of turnout (24/7) and she isn't overfed. In the stable she is a sweetheart. Uder saddle she is a monster.
We are having a saddle fitter out on Sunday to see if it is the saddle. If she keeps doing this, I am at a total loss. I have tried everything I know, including getting after her with a crop and placing assistants on the ground with longe whips to help get her "unstuck" when she balks. No matter what I do, she balks, cowkicks and bucks with ears pinned every time I ask for trot. Once she is already trotting, she will do it again at random intervals.
Her workouts consist of walking and trotting in a large arena with occasional large circles and cavaletti. The workouts are short and peppered with light hacking. She just hates going forward, is behind the leg and will expend much more energy resisting going forward than it takes for her to just go forward.
Is there something I am missing here? I am thinking of having her tested for EPSM. Anyone else run into this before and have suggestions?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 8:45 pm:
Hi,
This could be anything from pain from her saddle ,her feet to plain nautiness. Rule out the pain first.
My arab who I got green broke was going wonderfully then he got hurt I thought it was his hips. who knows, however he had a few months off and did the behaviour you describe except at a walk . I thought he was still in pain. I used the crop everything nothing would make him go forward. Then I called in the lady I got him from who raised him from birth. She said he is not in pain. Smack him on the butt and yell at him. I said no way will that work I tried a crop. But hey, what do you know the little bugger walked off and never did it again. Hitting him on the butt with my hand hurt his feelings instead of the crop behind the girth area. I could not believe it. Anyway.
Does she do this on the ground or just under saddle? How are her feet? Does she do this at a walk. My horse will pin his ears flat back if his feet are sore or if the saddle doesnt fit.
Good luck in your search for answers. Wish I could help more but it could be so many different things. Rule out one at a time.
Katrina
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 1:05 am:
I had sort of a similar problem developing but only after about 2 months with my colt and it turned out to be the saddle. As soon as we went on a circle at first he started to be more difficult to turn (bend around my leg) and eventually he also started to kick. He even started to groan. But my instructor was telling me he was just trying me out. Then a saddle fittere came out and it turned out my saddle was a very poor fit. It was ok on the front but on the back in wasn't touching all over and the saddle was such a model (Barnsy Raven) that there would be no way to get it to fit. Right now I am trying to find a saddle what will fit him second hand and am not riding him but lunging him with a chambon to try and strengthen his back somewhat. Since he is only a 3 year old I did not want to buy an new one but it looks as if I do not have a choice. I think this is mainly b/c most horses over here a warmbloods and I have a TB. I think I will probably get a Euroriding Luxor saddle and just hope he won't change too much (knowing my luck I need to go through 3 more saddles before he is full grown). I hope your problem also ends when the saddle fitter comes out.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 12:01 pm:
I am hoping it is the saddle! I agree though that she will change so much in the next couple of years, its mind boggling to consider the expense of having one fitted now. We are using a Karl Neidersuss dressage saddle and it looks like it fits her to me, but we will let the saddler have a look.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2004 - 8:57 am:
There is a common thread with 3 year olds and you will find this story repeated all through The Advisor. At 3 these horses are green and these are usually resistance training issues. Yes you always have to rule out pain but time, patience, and good training techniques will fix the problem most of the time.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2004 - 8:38 am:
The saddle fitter was out and it wasn't the saddle. I must have been very lucky all of these years, becuase I have never had a horse do this before, and I have broken in quite a few. Must be a warmblood mare thing!
As a side note, I am finding I prefer welsh pony and TB crosses, as they have natural "go!"
Thanks everyone. I will try good old fashioned patience, and we will see how it goes.
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2004 - 3:34 pm:
You indicated she's "going very well on the longe line" - what exactly is she doing on the lunge? When you ask her to move off, does she? Crisply and immediately? Or do you have to ask a few times? If things are truly well and good on the lunge, then I'd still suspect saddle fit. I have seen countless times the situation of "but my saddle fitter said the saddle fit" and it doesn't.
It COULD be a simple balance issue - putting a rider up on a 3yo, especially a WB who's probably grown pretty fast and still has some to do (and might be at an unbalanced growth stage right now) could easily make her feel like going forward is detrimental to her safety.
Some of her behavior, such as the randomly becoming "stuck" and sucking back/kicking, sounds much like my WB was at 3. Do you ride her outside the ring at all? Even though I wouldn't think she's been u/s for long enough to be ring-sour, sometimes it helps their minds to get out in the open, perhaps behind another horse, so there is incentive to GO rather than just mindlessly go around a ring.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 - 8:47 am:
She is a dream on the longe line. Walt, trot, canter, halt, half-halt, with upward and downward transitions that are spot on, crisp and clean. She stretches forward onto the bit, ears forward, eyes soft, with a wonderful natural rhythm that you can feel and even hear when she breathes. When I ask her to lenghthen her trot on the long sides, she does it with a smile, and without even breaking her rhythm or steady contact with the bit. I keep telling her owner that if she went under saddle like she is going on the longe, we would be very competitive at the dressage shows at training level right now.
I agree with your last point, and we have been trying hard to plan horsie "play dates" so that others are working in the arena with her at the same time, and we are trying to plan trail rides too. The problem has been coordinating with people. We are a small operation (4 horses, 4 boarders - one horse a yearling) and all of us have full time jobs in addition to swapping feeding days (we have a "communal barn" situation), so it is not easy to coordinate. But we are trying!
As far as the saddle goes, it really does look like it fits her, and it feels like it fits her too.
Time and patience...
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 - 6:31 pm:
Well, Debbie,
Since she's a dream on the longe, take it from there. I'd suggest that you longe her with a rider on board. It will be a lot easier for her, since she already knows the routine and the only difference will be the rider's weight.
Have the rider do absolutely nothing in the first couple of sessions, or until she somehow regains her balance.
Then one by one, replace the longe aids with rider's aids.
I think it'll be easy.....
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 9:09 am:
Hello, I wanted to give everyone an update to the Saga of the 3 year old. We tried 2 things, so I am not sure which is the key differentiator, but she has gone the best she ever has in the last 2 rides.
1) Had a sweet, kind, older horse work in the arena with her. Her ears are forward and she is quite happy to work with a "partner in crime" around. She doesn't even need to follow him. Just having a buddy there with her makes her more willing.
2) Protective boots! I have been checking her saddle, bridle and bit with a fine toothed comb. She was the worst she had ever been a couple of days ago, going forward and bucking high with her hind legs flying every single stride. I dismounted to check the saddle one more time, and noticed that she had bucked so hard, she had worked the protective boots loose, even though they were snug before longing. She does give a couple of good solid bucks on the longe before settling down, so my thought is that she works the protective boots loose on the longe, and then when I get on they are rubbing her legs and feeling like rocks in a running shoe (ouch)!
The moral of the story is, check EVERYTHING when a horse is "complaining," not just the usual suspects. I feel silly for not thinking of the boots before, but there you have it.
She still does very small cowkicks sometimes, but then she rides right through it, instead of going into rodeo mode.
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 12:57 pm:
Perhaps she's trying to tell you she doesn't like the boots! ;)
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 3:24 pm:
Exactly! That is why I feel so silly. I think it was the boots all along.
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 3:39 pm:
Haha that's funny. I have a horse that bucked on canter departs when wearing synthetic fleece pads. She had to have quilt sided only! She gave me clues however, by making her skin quiver constantly (but only after she got sweaty). Those newbies can sure have opinions!
kmb
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 4:13 pm:
Debbie, Do you think your girl would prefer pumps or open toed sandals? Perhaps a nice pair of spectators or stilletos? 
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2004 - 8:14 am:
This girl does have a bit of a "princess and the pea" mentality, I have to say.
If she were human she would be running around saying, "but thats not fair!" all the time.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 4, 2004 - 8:48 am:
Oh no! It wasn't just the boots! After going perfectly for a week, we're back to square one. She isn't cowkicking as much now. Now she just plants her feet, refuses to go forward with ears pinned, and does small rears if I get after her with the crop.
We are back to riding in circles with assistants in the middle armed with longe whips. Oh well...
She is SUCH a nice horse, and was going SO well, it is furstrating to backpedal.
When she is good, she is very very good, but when she is bad....
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Member:
Lisamg
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 4, 2004 - 11:36 pm:
Debbie;
I had a similar problem with my 1/2 Arab gelding when he was young. Your mare is probably very bright, which can be very frustrating when they decide they don't like something. Just when you think you have them figured out they find a new way to resist. My gelding would also refuse to move forward because he did not want to leave the barn. It was not the trail away from home he was afraid of, it was the leaving home itself. Once he figured out that going down a certain trail led him away, he would fight for hours not to go down that trail. He is very agile which made this more and more difficult to handle. I tried force (i.e. whip) but that only elicted massive rearing and bucking. What finally worked, was 1) doing something else for awhile with a buddy. (which you already tried and had success). And 2) finding something to "punish" him with for the bad behaviour without frightening him. It had to be something he disliked more than leaving the barn. What I did was pull his nose to my knee and hold it there. In his case he spun, but I just let him spin and stayed firm. Some horses will just stand there. After a few minutes I asked him to move forward. If you try this and she resists once again pull her head to your knee. Eventually my gelding knew I wouldn't give this up and we were soon on our way where ever I wanted to go. But before we reached that point he did try to back up at high speed and rear BEFORE I could pull his head around (he really thinks), so your reflexes have to be fast. However, I know the problem will never really be gone, because it's a learned behavior. If someone new rode him, let him refuse and get away with it, I'm sure the behaviour would come back in a hurry.
Hope this helps!
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Member:
Kel4s
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 5, 2004 - 10:27 am:
Have you tried riding her bareback or with a bareback pad? If she doesn't do the above after riding her bareback for about a week, then it's the saddle.
Also, how old of a three year old is she? Is she closer to three or closer to four? She may not be mentally ready for people to be after her with dressage whips while one person is up.
If she does go beautifully on the lunge, then just stick with the lunge for a few more months. Maybe working on inhand trail riding. Just walk beside her on the trail on a leadline or maybe ponying. She's still very 'young'. It's kind of like asking a fifth grader to do calculus, not ready for it.
Kellie
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 5, 2004 - 12:07 pm:
Debbie,
If there is any doubt that the horse has misunderstood me or can't follow through on what I've asked I don't punish. Are you 100% sure that you need to go to the whip with this young horse? I would work around her attitude to improve it as an outcome of the ride. Go back and figure out your successes and reapply. I'm of the old school but anytime a horse resists that much, you are asking too much and run the risk of spoiling it. I would try to put her in positions that allow her to do right instead of battle zones. It's hard to say w/o seeing the expression on her face and her language but that's JMO.
kmb
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Member:
Robynb
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Posted on Friday, Aug 6, 2004 - 2:48 am:
Hi Debbie,
Have you tried Christos' idea of lunging with a rider up? From the horse point of view, going forward on the lunge is not the same as going forward in response to rider signals. It may be that she is not entirely sure what the rider's signals mean, and she is trying to do all sorts of things to stop those irritating signals. If you work her on the lunge without rider signals at first, and then gradually introduce them, it might be clearer for her.
What does the rider do when she balks, kicks etc? I would suggest continue with light go forward signals, no whips or anything else. These signals stop the second she makes any attempt to go forward. There will then be a clear connection between the signal and the action. Nothing but nothing will stop these signals except going forward.
I've tried this on a couple of green broke horses. My signal was a light tapping or pulsing with my leg, and a clicking noise. On one occasion we stood in the arena for about 10 mins, and horse didn't do anything. Then he tried biting my foot (couldn't connect), then he tried kicking at my foot, then he tried backing, then stood still for a bit more, then eventually tried moving forward. I immediately stopped the signals, praised him and ended the lesson for the day. After that he tried it again once or twice for a about five minutes and then never again.
Your problem is with trotting, but you could try the same thing. Keep giving light signals for trot, not matter what she does, until she trots. Then immediately stop the aids and leave her alone. If she stops trotting don't worry at this point. The lesson here is 'on my signal, move forward into trot'. The next lesson can be 'keep trotting until I tell you otherwise'.
This may take ages, but she should stay reasonably calm without whips and the rider just quietly asking. It's really back to basics, but I'm sure she'll get it eventually. Good luck.
Robyn
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New Member:
Jmarie
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 23, 2006 - 2:08 pm:
For what it's worth, I had a 3-yo Paint gelding who exhibited the identical behavior. I found that backing him up for a distance or getting off and longeing him usually settled the issue. I moved on, and he became a solid mount. No more rodeo days.
Then he turned 10, and the behavior reappeared! He'd been shown over fences, thoroughly enjoyed everything we threw at him, became a wonderful dressage prospect, and excelled at a clinic a few months ago. He was the perfect horse, quick off the leg, responsive to the seat, yada, yada, yada, so I immediately called the vet. No problems were found. I've bought two new saddles for him (this boy is breaking my budget!  )--both Bates with the CAIR system and changeable gullets--and finally resorted to longeing him immediately each time he so much as picked up that hind foot or felt like he might be balking. Note, he free-longes to voice commands perfectly, but was throwing in a buck/kick in my direction each time. After three days of this, he was much better.
I know it seems odd, but I have a feeling that in the spring a return to basics (he was round-pen trained by a professional as a youngster) will be in order. From what I'm reading and sensing, there's a point where some building block should have been inserted and wasn't.
Anyone else have a horse that regressed like this, or am I just special?
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