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Discussion on Low palate? bitting ?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 9:19 pm:
Hi,
I have a few questions you guys might be able to help me with.
First when I got my arab then 4 years. He hated the snaffle egg but and loose ring. He acted in pain with any contact, throwing his head. I decided to try the bitless till he was older and go back to the bit. The bitless bridle was a miricle . He responded like a champion, the slightest aid gave perfect results. Then after a while I had saddle fitting problems and he learnt to buck. Unfortunatly this bridle makes it impossible to stop a bucking horse. You cannot get the head up.
I fixed the saddle fit but my intelligent arab learnt that bucking worked and he got to stop as he was excellent at bucking. So I tried anti bucking aids which I hated as I like him to be able to have full access to his neck as we do very steep hills etc. (PS he only bucked later when cantering with a group of horses) So now goes my search for a bit. Before I go further I think he has a low palet or cleft palat as when he drinks the water runs out his nose. Only water no food>Thats what I was told. SO I think maybe thats why he hated the snaffle( nut cracker effect on low palet) also too thick. I found he did very well in a french link D snaffle and his favourite the mikmar bit. No nose pressure or curb, just the plain bit. It is a very flat light bit. I am getting a lot of flack saying the bit is too severe. My rein pressure is so mild I am amazed that he responds and happily.
My question is should I listen to everyone who says the snaffle is best. I plan on going back to the bitless after a year of no bucking. I can stop the buck in any bit ,just not the bittless bridle. Do you think his palate is causing him to evade the regular snaffle. He knows his aids and collects wonderfully in even a halter. He gives winderfully in a halter, bittless and the other 2 bits. The egg but and loose ring however are another story(at fast paces). I am so used to him responding so well .
Another note I have never used anything other than a snaffle on all my other horses with excellent results, so I dont think its me.
Any thoughts welcome please
Katrina
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 10:50 pm:
Hi Katrina,
I have followed your posts and am familiar with your guy. My favorite old mare had a very low palate and only went well in a special pellum. It was a great bit that I have only seen once and it bends forward to give tongue relief (and up into a mild port) and the whole mouth piece floats on a short shank that the horse can adjust a tad. I wrapped it in latex as she was sensitive and she loved it. I showed her hunt and Sidesaddle but she only wanted that bit. Arabs don't like too much bit in their mouths as they just don't have room. Also, shallow tongue beds need relief. Make sure you get a 2 joint bit or a bit with tongue relief. Not too much hardware and I believe you have the hands to handle whatever it takes (the mikmar or the pellum) Let your horse choose the bit. It's seems silly to have blanket statements about snaffles. You are good to listen to your horse. Some horses just won't work in a snaffle. This mare that I have did some of the same things you are talking about. Good Luck and hang on girl!
Kerry
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 12:26 pm:
Hi Katrina
Two of my horses have fairly low palates and I use Myler comfort loose ring snaffle bits on them with really good results. I was using Sprenger KK bits but after speaking with their dentist, he suggested trying a Myler bit as he thought it would suit their mouths better and be more comfortable. He was right as they both seem to love them.
I'm not sure what discipline you ride but for dressage here in Canada (and I believe also in the US) the Myler comfort snaffle (either loose ring or eggbutt) is the only Myler bit that is legal for showing.
If you don't do dressage, then the selection you could pick from is quite extensive. The company has a very informative website (https://www.toklat.com/myler/) and a good customer service program. Before I purchased mine, I wrote and asked quite a few questions about correct fit (as they do fit differently from other bits) and they were very helpful.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 2:02 pm:
Hi Kerry and Sue,
Kerry thanks for your words of wisdom. I guess I was looking for confirmation. I just hate it when I get funny looks from the Mikmar. Thank you!!
Sue thanks for the web site. I will look into it. The D bit that I have looks very similar to the myler bit in shape. Its a thin bit. He likes it also, It is a more severe bit, more so than the mikmar.
Does anyone use a Mikmar with a horse with a low palat?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 8:45 pm:
Hi again,
Just wanted you to know I e-mailed Maggie Flowers. Who is an expert and asked her oppinion. She said the mikmar was a wonderful choice and that it is a gentle kind bit. She is not affiliated with the company in any way.Especially that I dont use the nose rope or curb. She told me to use it and just educate people who think the snaffle is the kindest bit. It is for some horses but not for all.
I am starting to feel better. 
Katrina
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 4:00 am:
Mullen mouth soft rubber snaffle or vulcanite (rubber covered) pelham also work on horses with this type of mouth conformation in my (limited) experience. Pelham is also good for bucking or pulling with head between front legs since curb chain action brings the head up.
Strangely, the soft rubber mullen can also be very good on horses that pull despite being so mild as to make you worry about total loss of control... I had one horse that always rushed showjumps dangerously which would only behave with this bit.
I agree with the above that I would always try a french link snaffle first in this type of situation - such a useful and gentle bit for horses that don't like an ordinary snaffle.
Imogen
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 5:59 pm:
Katrina,
The kindest bit is the one that gets the message across with the least possible force.
Using a snaffle on a horse that will not understand, respect or for whatever reason not accept it, is not kind.
It is dumb, frustrating, cruel and dangerous for both you and the horse.
Many people will start a horse in a snaffle because their hands are not quiet and they are afraid to use a stronger bit in fear of damaging the youngster's mouth.
What actually happens is that the horse becomes angry at the shaky contact, pulls on the soft bit and voila! He finds out that you can't stop him, and that this thing in his mouth is just for you to get on his nerves.
Then people move on to a stronger bit, but the battle has already began...
What I mean with this is that you do start a horse on a plain snaffle, but only if you have excellent hands and your communication with the horse is very good already. If not, a stronger bit is a better idea for the beginning.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 7:18 pm:
Thanks Cristos,
When I first got him the way he reacted did get me to go for a few lessons. I thought it was me as I have never had a horse react this way. My instructer said my hands were excellent. I did need work on my legs but thats resolved. If anything she said I did not use enough contact. My hands were steady and gentle. I know because that was my concern I asked her to really make sure what I was doing was not confusing my horse. That said . I went to another trainer and got confermation. Thats when I went to the bitless.
My horse will stop in a halter with just my seat. Put a snaffle on and he changes. It really does hurt even with the slightest closing of my fist.
I really beleive that the mikmar (without nose pull or curb) is much more gentle. I dont even need to use the reins, only just to remind him to stay collected if thats what I want. I intend to go back to the bitless full time. I use the bitless when riding on my own. He only bucks when with other horses racing past. However he has not done this in 4 months now. On our own We stop at a gallop with all the finesse of a highly trained horse. He knows what I want before I ask it. He side pass's stands like a statue leg yeilds everything with the slightest touch.
Do you think that all horses will go well in a snaffle with the right hands?
Katrina
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 4:09 am:
I don't think snaffles suit all horse regardless of how considerate the rider's hands are. If they have a low palate then a single jointed snaffle will cause real discomfort. My horse (a Morgan) hated single joints and would toss his head in the air at the slightest contact. He is much happier in a double joint, I use the Sprenger KK training bradoon. I have also found that he responds better to a thinner bit than a thick one which he tends to lean on. If a horse has a small mouth as well, a thick bit would be too much of a 'mouthful'!
It is usually a case of trial and error before you find a bit your horse goes well in, I have been through quite a few! Horses have different shaped palates, mouths and tongues.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 4:46 am:
No, Katrina, I agree with Gill, not all horses go well in a snaffle even if you're a head rider in the Spanish School of Vienna.
I believe that a plain snaffle is only for the horse that will never pull or otherwise misbehave, no matter what. And then again, it has to fit him properly.
Even top international riders on very well trained horses, most often use a slightly stronger bit, especially when excitement is a notch up, like in competition.
PS :There's a saying, for instance, British I believe, that there are three kinds of fools: The fool, the damn fool, and the one that hunts on a plain snaffle.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 6:58 am:
Thanks Gill and Cristos,
If I put my finger in his mouth where the bit goes, after he has stopped trying to spit it out, I can feel the palat . Thats how low his palate is, finger width from his tongue.
I am sticking to the bits I have as he is wonderful in them. They both work very well with him. I am only using them when riding with other horses untill I am sure he is done with bucking at least for the most part. I will have to learn to ignore the people that tell me to use a snaffle.
Everyones advise has been wonderful. This is what I knew in my heart but needed to hear it from other well informed horse people.
Thanks to everyone.
Katrina
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Member:
Deggert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 1:02 pm:
Another thing I haven't heard mentioned is horses with long mouths, long lip line I guess. Where the molars are right at the corners. My mare was very sensitive and at lower level work was good with a snaffle. As her frame became more elevated she started tossing and grinding her teeth. The vet wanted to do a bit seat(sp) where he would grind her molars back but I was not that crazy about it. When I put her in a small curb where the pressure was not on the corners she was a happy camper,, Couldn't show dressage in it but then she retired to have some foals. To this day she loves a curb, put a snaffle on her and she just agitates. Oh, why would you take the rope piece off of the Mikmar? I grew up here in SO CA where MR Evans, who invented it, said that the mouthpiece, rope nose and curb all helped to disperse the pressure over a larger area, not just in the mouth. Just FYI In his training situation with hundreds of novices he felt better having the horses in this bit as their mouths were less likely to be damaged by inexperienced hands
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 1:20 pm:
Christos,
I like your saying but I have to disagree with it. I used to do the cross country phase of three day in a rubber snaffle with no control problems on a fairly high strung thoroughbred.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 1:24 pm:
Hi Debbie, thanks for the words of encouragement. I only use the regular mouth piece when riding. However I will use double reins with the nose rope on the hunter paces. I have no problem with the the nose piece, its just that we really dont need it as he is so soft to his aids. I love this bit.
Thanks,
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 4:20 pm:
Hi, Holly,
In competition a rider is riding all alone, in a more or less protected environment. Losing control has little, if any, impact to others.
Hunting is a different story. There are many people and horses involved, sometimes beginners or children. The traffic on adjacent roads keeps running, and there are private properties around that are not to be tresspassed or damaged. And excitement, because the horses are in groups, is usually bigger than in competition.
Losing control of your horse while hunting can have great impact on others, and this is why I believe all measures, including a stronger bit, should be taken to maintain control at all times.
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 4:28 pm:
Christos, I guess you have a point there. I've never hunted so didn't have to deal with the excitement the horses feed on in the hunt field. (Whoa dammit whoa!)
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