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Discussion on Re-Training an "Un-Trained" Horse
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 8:02 am:
Hi All,
Need to know if I did the right things last night. A little back ground first: a nice lady at my barn purchased a sweet QH gelding (5 or 6 y.o) couple of years ago. Since then, she has, without meaning to, "untrained" him. As a young horse, he was never "perfectly" behaved, but not dangerous...just naughty. If she tried to get a bridle on, he'd toss his head, didn't stand still in cross ties, that sort of thing. Unfortunately, when he was naughty, she frequently gave up, gave him treats and put him away. So, he learned that by being naughty, he could get out of working. She attempted Parelli training, but didn't get very far.
Fast forward to now and some of the issues, she's managed to work through (she can now get a bridle on, for example, without too much trouble). So, last night, she gets him tacked up and tries to mount. He's just naughty enough to either swing his butt out away from the mounting block or take 2 big steps forward...enough that his short owner can't get on. Out of the corner of my eye, while I was riding, I watched and then offered help. She said she was fine, but after a few tries, she got ready to give up and put him away. I told her that if she kept that up, no-one would ever be able to get on him and that I was willing to help if she wanted me to. She graciously accepted. So here is where I need to know if I helped in the right way, because I am NOT a trainer, have never trained a horse and have only owned 2 horses with (fortunately) very nice manners.
I lined the horse up to the mounting block, made sure he was standing square and held on to the bridle as she tried to get up. If he moved off, I immedietely had her slide off, I grabbed the reins and ran the horse around the arena and then started over back at the mounting block. My reasoning is "If you don't do the right thing (stand still), you have to work". We tried this several times and the horse still wouldn't stand still and I was running out of breath. So, then I decided I would try to get on him. Started at the mounting block, petted him for standing still, put weight with my hand in the stirrup, petted him for standing still, leaned over the saddle, petted him for standing still and built up to putting my foot in the stirrup and swinging a leg over. If he so much as shifted his weight, I slid down, grabbed the reins and we did another lap around the arena. During this process, he kept swinging his head over to me, which I thought was unacceptable (he didn't bite, but I wouldn't put it past him), so every time he swung his head around, I lightly smacked his shoulder and barked a sharp "quit!".
Anyway...after 45 minutes of this, I got the lady into the saddle twice with the horse standing still and I got up once with him standing still (Lots of praise and petting when he was good) After making him stand for a moment once I was up, I gave a very clear "walk" cue, walked partially around the arena, gave him lots of pets and good boys, then I ended on a positive note and the lady put him away.
So, after that long story...was this productive help for this lady and her horse or did I screw them both up even more? Seems to me that I used a lot of the good advice I've learned from everyone here on HA, but if I made mistakes, I want to learn from them as well and if I need to help them again, I want to make sure I do more good than harm. The only other thing that I will add is that my mare was standing near the mounting block (but far enough away that the horses couldn't touch each other). Ideally, I would have had time to put her away before starting this whole process, but she was still warm from work and I didn't want to put her in a stall w/ hay until she was cooled out (the lady I was working with is too timid to handle her more than hold her reins - yet good girl that she is, she never moved a muscle and just looked at me with a puzzled expression on her face).
Any advice on what I should have / could have done differently with the QH?
Thanks!
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Member:
denise
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 9:09 am:
Hi Fran C,
I think you did a great job and your instincts were right on! The only thing I would have done differently is I would have DrOve him in a small circle around me rather than using the whole arena. This way he sees that he is the only one working and horses don't particularly like making tight circles.
Nice Job!
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Fran .... Ditto to Denise
When they want to move, I move them in a tight circle around me and make them move those legs and work at it. I want to hold my ground and make them work around me so that they learn I am the leader.
Your instincts were right on and giving up would have set the horse and owner back tremendously. I'm glad the owner was big enough to accept your offer to help. Great job.
DT
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 9:39 am:
Does this horse have the ''send'' Q Does he have the back up Q ? Maybe you can stay near the mounting block and send the horse around it, change direction, change direction etc.. standing close to the mounting block is rest from the tight work.. Just like the trailer loading ideas.. Do this in the middle of the arena not the barn isle.. Once he is standing still but decides to move off while mounting i back the horse back to the block and we stand..
have fun ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. .
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 10:12 am:
Hi Fran,
I think you were right on... though I make the horse back up (easier on me, harder work for horse, can be started more quickly after wrong behaviour, doesn't wreck his hocks, reinforces the joy of standing still.)
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 12:02 pm:
Hi Fran,
Wish you would have been around back when I was in this lady's shoes! I had to learn a lot of things the hard way; screw up and go back to square one. I also use backing to teach my horse to stand still. I take my dressage whip and swing it back and forth in front of me while saying "BACK!" If he doesn't move the whip will hit him in the upper legs and then he will move. The key is to make him move with vigor. I feel he does this to show a lack of respect to me so I want to establish it will not be tolerated. This is one of the exercises taught by Clinton Anderson in his "Respectfulness" series so my horse learned it as part of our ground work.
Not sure if your friend is an HA member, but some of what you say sounds like me a long time ago. I hope you recommend she join as it has made a world of difference in my horsemanship.
Linda
P.S. By the way, I disagree with your statement that you are not a trainer. I think everyone that rides is training every day they ride, or their horse would soon pick up all sorts of bad habits.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 12:56 pm:
Fran, your way is great because it burns people calories at the same time we are training the horse! :-)
For a horse that moves when being mounted, I use the forward movement around the mounting block . . . and have even done it with one foot on the ground and another in the stirrup when one of my "trained" horses decides exhibit a little bit of testing behavior. Only takes a few steps of asking for forward movement before the "trained" horse remembers that it's easier to just stand.
Also, after mounting, if the horse moves off the cue for move is given, I either dismount and start again, or if I'm particularly lazy, will ask the horse to move forward on a tiny circle until I stop asking for movement.
The key, I learned a long time ago is that we can't make a horse stand. We CAN teach a horse the cue for "Move," and when we aren't giving the cue, he is supposed to stand. If he doesn't stand, we can even anticipate the movement and give the "Move" cue AS he is beginning his movement (and he will think, "Gee, how did she know I was thinking of moving? I sure wish she'd let me stop." . . . and continue to give the cue until we notice the horse asking to stop. Then, stop the move cue and the horse will, in most cases, be thankful to stand, although when first teaching a horse to stand when mounting, it may take several times of doing the exercise before it "clicks" that he is only supposed to move when asked.
Good job!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 1:11 pm:
Thank you, everyone, for your encouragement and help. I'm laughing how I could have saved myself a lot of huffing and puffing by making the horse work around me instead of trotting off with him. However, that brings up another question: Is it OK to make him work around me when he's wearing a bit and the only thing I have to hold on to is the reins? I don't want to be hard on his mouth but recognize that the "punishment" of moving his feet needs to be very quick after the bad behavior. Also, because he's a bit stubborn, without a whip in my hand, he's difficult to back up, so do I lose effectiveness by taking the time to reach down to the ground to grab a whip?
Ann, to answer your question, the lady did work on sending cue as part of the Parelli training, but like everything, if he didn't cooperate, she rarely enforced it.
I recognize that this horse really needs to be re-started. Both the barn owner and I have tried to help but if it's not reinforced by the owner, we get back to the bad behavior. I wish I had more time to help because it would be an interesting challenge for me and certainly go a long way in growing my skills. Unfortunately, I can only help in bits and pieces, but want to make it meaningful both for horse and owner when I do.
Really appreciate the input!
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Member:
denise
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 1:57 pm:
Yes, it is OK to make him work in the bit. In fact, it gives you more control. Keep the reins over the horse's neck and just hold the rein closest to you about 12-18 inches from the bit. Having a dressage whip or crop in hand to get him forward is a very effective way to get him forward in the circle. When you want him to stop, disengage his hind end by pulling the rein in your hand up to the pommel. Do not release until the front feet stop and the horse takes two steps over with the hind end. Be sure to release immediately when this happens. (You will have to move your feet with the horse, staying at his shoulder, for this to work) What is nice about doing it this way is that the horse will more than likely be squared up. I should make a YouTube video of this and post it. I will work on that. It is a bit difficult to describe
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 2:09 pm:
Yep, Fran. Ditto to Denise.
One rein works best with a snaffle, but it can be done with a curb . . . Need to be really sensitive to the horse's giving to the bit. I use an upward holding of the rein, toward the wither's or even the center of the crest if I feel the horse bracing on the bit.
I am assuming the reins are buckled English reins. With split western reins, just be careful not to lose the off rein.
When mounting, I always shorten my inside rein. Normally, just take the slack out but don't hold the horse's mouth. That way, if the horse decides to move, a squeeze on the inside rein while I am holding mane, will cause the horse to give to the side, reminding him to keep his attention on ME, and will make it easier to cue the horse for stop. It will keep him from pushing against the bit and moving forward as he can do more easily if the reins are held evenly.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 7:19 pm:
Denise, I'd love to see that video. If you do have a few free moments, I would be very grateful if you got it posted. It would help a lot.
Holly, he's in a bit of a strange set up (to me, anyway, who's only ever ridden English except for the occasional trail ride). He had a loose ring type of bit in his mouth, but I don't know exactly what as I didn't open his mouth to look. Most likely, it's a mild type of snaffle. Although the Lady rides western, it was not a split rein as I would have expected, yet it was defintetly a western type bridle. Frankly, I don't know enough about western gear to know one thing from the next.
But, I am glad to know that it's OK to work him in a tight circle, regardless. It really is quite logical and a bit embarrasing that I didn't think of it (duh!). I'll use the excuse that my horse was standing right there so part of my mind was on her (and if you buy that one, I have a bridge up for sale too... ). Of course, the exercise didn't hurt me and I slept like the dead last night!
Again, thanks to all for the help!
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 - 7:58 pm:
I would love to see that video too! Fran, it sounds like you are on your way to be a real live TRAINER! Good job!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 18, 2007 - 7:39 am:
I wish it were true, Gwen, I wish it were true...there's nothing I would like better than to spend my days working with horses. However, I'm a realist and know that my lack of experience and knowledge get in the way of that pipe dream. Hand me a well trained horse and I know enough to keep it well trained and perhaps even improve it a little. Wouldn't even know where to begin with a baby and as for a really problematic horse...well, we'll see how much help I can be to the lady at my barn ( a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!). Regardless, that doesn't stop me from wanting to learn everything I can get my hands on (and practice it when the opportunity arises.) But I do thank you, and everyone, for your kind words.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 18, 2007 - 4:03 pm:
Fran, Since no one mentioned it, when the horse swings his head at you, block it with your elbow. After he runs into it a few times he will quit. You are not trying to hit him, just act like you have a strange Tic. Remember the herd leader makes the other horses feet move!
Cynthia
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Member:
skye
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 18, 2007 - 8:04 pm:
My 5-year-old just started with the same behavior. The advice I got was similar to that given here here only I was told to stand on the mounting block, make him turn back toward the mounting block and then change directions and then do that once or twice more. A couple of changes of direction and he was listening. When he moved into position so I could soon get on, I moved him forward one step at a time, gave him some rubs, and when all was right, I got on. Worked great.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2007 - 7:40 am:
Cynthia-thanks. I actually edited using my elbow out of my initial post as it was getting long. I did start with that, but the smart little bugger either stopped before he made contact (but still had his nose a hair away from my elbow), or he tried to duck his nose underneath, towards my hip. That's when I resorted to a smack on the shoulder and moving his head back to where it belongs along with the "Quit!"
I haven't been out to the barn since Tuesday night when I worked with this guy. I'm dying to know how things worked out Wed & Thurs - I know the Lady was out there working with him but don't know the outcome of it. Hopefully she was consistent and they continued to make progress.
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