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  Discussion on Young gelding kills goats
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Member:
nadia

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 2:19 pm:

A friend of mine has a 4YO gelding and fainting goats. The horse was supposed to start training this summer, but it hasn't happened yet. He has been in a pasture every day (for the past year) with 3 other mares, one is ~25, ~18 and 12. The mares all get along fine with the goats. The gelding started killing the goats this past summer. He has kept the goats and horses separate since, but the goats are hard to keep separated.

Could this just be due to his young age and lack of training? He wants to get rid of the horse. Is it too late for the horse? Is he too dangerous? He has not been known to be dangerous to humans.

Thanks for any advice.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 3:24 pm:

Hi Nadia,

There are other threads in this area that may interest you.

Not sure what "too late" means in this context-- possibly too late for him to be trained for steer roping or goat tying, and he should not be left around kids, just in case. Probably he is bored and "playing rough" with whatever he can chase. Fainting Goats strike me as relatively poor turnout partners for horses since, as I understand it, they have no possibility of running away if they get stressed.

But this all sounds pretty normal for a young horse, even though it's not pretty.
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 7:42 pm:

I posted a thread on this last year. ...theres a good article on the horse.com website about horses that kill.
leslie
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 8:02 pm:

bad combination. poor goats, shame some had to die from lack of training. They all faint in some stage or another, from just standing there to actually falling over. I'm sure they emit some kind of "smell of fear". They just have no way to move. awful way to die...of all the types of goats to have these i would say are NEVER to be allowed with other animals, except LGD's. Not to mention they aren't full size goats. They are so small.. I wonder when it happens these attacks? and i'm sure not all is lost. It could be this horse is fine around normal size, normal functioning goats. Who knows? could just be this combination.


The horse isn't the problem so much, but the owner who has an untrained horse, with goats he knows nothing about. If i've learned anything having different kinds of animals over the years, is you HAVE to slowly introduce, over time, with lots of training, on all their parts. The goats need to learn to get out of the way of the horse, The horse needs to hear and learn the ways of the goat. Some horses can't handle the "maaaaaing" sound. They take it as threat. Some just want to play. And play rough will kill them. Some just don't like the smell of the goats. My full size horse has a problem with smaller goats, she can't see them, too! Their too rambunctious and the zip and dart in and out of their feet. Only older goats are ever put in with the horse.

I have 3 goats, one full size horse, it can be done. It just also has to be something you plan, train, stage, etc. I also never leave them together 24 hours, 7 days a week. No horse can behave ALL THE TIME. Sometimes my sweet girl just has to get away from them.

Putting them together with out training is this kind of recipe for disaster. BUT more so because of the myotonia the goats have.. sad!!!
Member:
nadia

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 8:51 pm:

I have read the other posts and I felt it was a different situation. I was concerned that he wants to do this being young and untrained. My friend has been raising these goats for 4-5 years. He has had the mares for about long with no problem. I am wondering if this is:
- just this horse
- any young horse
- geldings
- being untrained

So far, you seem to be saying any horse could do it. I assume training would not change his behavior in any way? My thought is he is young and not being worked, so he is doing what he wants. Once he starts training, could his attitude change, become more respectful of smaller animals? While I wouldn't expect that for quite some time, I am hoping it isn't a trait that has more serious implications?
Member:
jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 9:48 pm:

Of course, any horse can do this. we hear about it alot. We also hear about the horse and goats getting on famously.

There are just too many variables you are asking. For instance, maybe its this breed of goat with this horse? does one go out and get another larger /different breed of goat and put it in with this horse to find out? has this horse created this "fun" and its now like a habit? who knows? and who is going to take this chance? i take it this owner is ready to jettison this gelding? he just might not have the time to deal with it.

Asking the why questions likely will never really get an answer unless we are there to see for ourselves. Do the goats bleat before the gelding kills it? Does the horse always go after the goat immediately? is this a learned behavior? or does the horse fear the goat? that kind of thing.

I have rarely ever heard of a purely mean / aggressive horse. it's always a matter of training. Or lack of it. And many people just avoid those situations with that kind of horse. I'm not sure what you mean though "more serious implications". like if he is crazy? chance are no. he's a normal horse. And there are plenty of horses that are then labled "dog killers" or something. are they? or no one took the time and effort to get to the bottom of it.

If this is what you think. That is great. And it probably is. young and untrained. and if it was mine i would try and see if i could get it to stop. and it would be alot of work to focus on this issue on top of regular training. Because i would never be able to sleep at night thinking i was the cause of an animals death from another. So that would be my focus for some time. But would i ever trust this horse with my goats again? not likely.

AND horses need years on them till they settle a bit. Become more trustworthy. etc. Some are born that way. mine was. this one is obviously not. How is this horse under lead? on the ground manners with people? with dogs? with pigs? with chickens? with the other horses? its the whole ensemble that those of us on the net can't help with.

I have a dog that ate my chickens. i worked long and hard, even after i got dozens of emails saying once they've done that they'll always do it. well... my dog a year later is out with the chickens. the chickens jump on his food bowl even while he's eating now. But it's never ending my diligence on this matter. Even now if he looks at the chickens i reprimand. If he trots too fast toward one i reprimand. And "luckily" when i'm not around that seems to have worked in such a way that he leaves them be then too! But its my comfort level that allows him to stay here. how i did it, haven't a clue. except to say it was nonstop on my mind daily for over a year. and instinctively we figured it out. Everyone else around me said get rid of the dog. I knew if i did that he'd be dead. i had that motivation. Does this owner? And its neverending. i can't just say ok now he's cured? I wish.. but can't. Same with this horse. I can live with a chicken digression on his part if it happens again. I couldn't if it was one of my prized goats.

whatever the circumstance its the owner and the owners ability to work the situation. This owner might not want to. might not care to. His prerogative. and that is where you should let it lie. I know you are worried for this horse. But in another situation it really might not be an issue ever. But the owner should disclaim this "trait" to another owner no matter. Because like someone posted above it could be a child next.
Member:
nadia

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 9:17 am:

Jos, thanks for your input. I feel better that he's not necessarily a bad horse, just more of a rough player at this point. He sometimes goes after their dog, who is not aggressive to horses at all, but she gets out of his way. As far as I know, he is not threatening to humans.
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Thursday, Nov 1, 2007 - 1:44 pm:

Nadia, I have a 2 1/2 year old filly who used to chase my 2 dogs. She was doing it for fun, mainly because my other horses are much older and won't play. I let her know that was bad and I haven't seen her do it for some time now. It was unfortunate that his actions caused the death of the goats. You never said how they died, were they trampled? Were there obvious injuries? You might suggest that the owner get some toys for him to play with, some horses will use them.
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